impossible paradoxes of faith

[GrayAngel]

Dr. Truth, have you Molinism's answer to your question? If so, how do you evaluate it?

Hey, new guy. There's actually a rule that the only non-Christian allowed to reply in a thread is the one who started the thread. It helps to keep the theme of "Exploring Christianity" instead of open debate, the latter of which can be found in the Philosophy sub-forum.

 

[pico]

Hey, new guy. There's actually a rule that the only non-Christian allowed to reply in a thread is the one who started the thread. It helps to keep the theme of "Exploring Christianity" instead of open debate, the latter of which can be found in the Philosophy sub-forum.

Didn't see that rule, got it. There are an awful lot of sub-forums on here!

 

[GrayAngel]

Didn't see that rule, got it. There are an awful lot of sub-forums on here!

I still get a bit disoriented myself. Especially with all of the fancy words they've got for things. Soteriology? Dispensationalism? Jeez.

Once you get used to it, it won't be quite as confusing, though.

 

[Ashlantal]

http://www.amazon.com/God-Possible-Biblical-Introduction-Open/dp/080106290X

Click to view inside , this is a very insightful point of view regarding God's perspective

 

[Hawkins]

This question is based on the following assumptions of god, so it applies only to this particular kind of god. If your god doesn't match these assumptions then ignore the question.

1. god is omniscient
2. god is loving
3. god is merciful
4. hell exists
5. free will exists

Question:

Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

Love has an object. He loves His sheep but not the wolves for if He loves the wolves He has to feed them with the sheep. If He loves the sheep, He has to leave the wolves in poverty.

Freewill simply means people will divide. If people won't divide, either there's no freewill or no real choice is given.

Planet earth is perfect as it's not yet the final goal. Planet is perfect in that it provides a favorable environment for such a freewill division to occur.

God's final goal is an eternity called Heaven. In simple terms, God would use planet earth as a filter such that the division He selected will be qualified to live such an eternity up to God's expected standard. Again, if everyone is qualified then either no freewill is granted or no real choices are given. So there must be those not qualified and being filtered out.

People with freewill will make changes. People with freewill themselves will change. God just allow what happens happens. He will try to correct them but as expected only those who qualify the future will be correctable. If they are not correctable then God let them. Then they will finally show them up as wolves given time. Thus they will be in hell.

 

[PureDose]

This question is based on the following assumptions of god, so it applies only to this particular kind of god. If your god doesn't match these assumptions then ignore the question.

1. god is omniscient
2. god is loving
3. god is merciful
4. hell exists
5. free will exists

Question:

Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

Can you quote a verse or some verses on this from the Bible?

 

[Dre99]

God doesn't know if you are going to heaven or hell. That would be pretty sadistic creating beings who were inevitably damned to eternal suffering. But God knows every possible outcome and he knows your heart. The Holy Spirit can do a lot of calling, but if you are not seeking God and don't respond, guess where you willingly end up.

 

[John Zain]

This question is based on the following assumptions of god,
1. god is omniscient
2. god is loving
3. god is merciful
4. hell exists
5. free will exists
Question:
Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will,
by their own free will, go to hell?

Humans have free will, but NOT in everything ...
e.g. we don't choose to be born, our initial environment, our characteristics, what school to go to, etc.
Ergo, you have NO PROOF that people actually have free will to choose hell.
So, shall we still continue with this, or call it a day?

The first humans were created perfect, perfectly destined for heaven without any choosing either way.
But they exercised their free will to be disobedient to their Creator.
This negatively affected their descendants, whose free will to choose heaven and hell was cancelled.
I.E. They were destined to hell, period.

Regardless, some of God's creation will be taken to Heaven, which is His goal.
The Bible explains that God sees peoples' hearts! ... This is the Key.
So, He chooses some to be His people ... plain and simple.

Your same question could be asked:
Why did God create angels with free will, knowing some would rebel against Him and follow Lucifer?

Hey, just had a thought ...
One reason for God's choosing some over others was to prove there is Good and Evil in the Universe!
I.E. God created both Good and Evil.
Christians know that God uses Satan to TEST His people ... it's part of the sanctification process.

The key question is ...
Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people?
And the answer is above in red.

 

[Emmy]

Dear dr truth. You had some good answers, and you found it hard to believe, that a loving God sends some people to hell. There is a simple answer, God does not send anyone to hell, those men and women who do not want to follow God`s Commandments to: 1) Love God with all their hearts, with all their souls, and with all their minds, and do not love their neighbour as they love themselves, do not want to go to God who is all Love. Love is the key to Heaven, and people who have no Love for God, neither love for their neighbour, rather go their own way. And the only place without God, nor His Light, would be Outer Darkness, where there can be heard loud wailing.
It is simply: We return to God our Heavenly Father, who is All Love, and our Christian brothers and sisters, or we go our own way, and that way leads into a Place without God`s Love. The choice is ours, dr truth. I say this with love.
Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Moderator. Where has my Message gone??? Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Moderator. Sorry! Emmy.

 

[MagickMonkey]

1. IMO God chooses not to know everything in advance. It seems to me the bible is quite clear about that.

So god would choose to be wilfully ignorant of information that could possibly lead to his making better decisions?

 

[MagickMonkey]

If I were to design an ai to play against in a game of chess, that alone might display my skill as a software engineer, but since computers are deterministic machines I would know every move it would make before-hand. On the other hand, if I want to design this ai to display my chess playing skills, then I would have to incorporate some element of unpredictability in its decision making process so that I could not possibly know exactly what it would do in every case. Also, an intelligence that could fully comprehend the problem space of all possible futures would have to be incredibly vast as compared to one which comprehends only a single, static course of events. If you want to suggest that a God with that kind of ability is somehow less gifted than the alternative, well, fair enough, but it's only an opinion.

So god created a scenario whereby most will go to hell for the sake of allowing him to demonstrate how good he is at being a god?

 

[MagickMonkey]

God created mankind so that mankind may enjoy God and all that God is. It was for God's own good pleasure and glory that He brought into existence the cosmos along with mankind.

Ok, suppose that is his purpose. What will the net results be?

I believe that if God were to create only those whom He knew would choose to glorify and worship him, the worship and glorification would be hollow. If I want my children to love me and reflect who I am to the world around us, they must do it because they love me because of my characteristics and not because they have no choice. Love without choice is not love.

Ok, if so, what does it say about got that most choose to reject him? If humanity's net attitude towards god is negative or irrelevant because they've chosen the wrong god or whatever, then how effective has his plan been? If it has been largely ineffective, then how can it justify the eternal torment many will supposedly face? Of course, I understand the concept of eternal damnation for those who reject god is not universally accepted among christians.

 

[MagickMonkey]

No free will. You will not one a single verse in scripture which says that God gave us free will. The omniscience and omnipotence of God makes such a notion logically impossible. The reverse, called predestination, is directly spoken of and promoted in the Bible.

God is loving, but not towards all people. He loves His people, the one's He predestined before the creation of the world. The Bible is very clear that there are people God hates.

God is merciful because we don't deserve any good thing from a perfect God. That is part of the whole point. We weren't entitled to anything, but He sent His son to justify us and redeem us anyway.

Hell exists as a place of justice. All people do good any bad in their lives, and without forgiveness, God will correct all wrongs and reward all good. Contrary to popular opinion, Hell is adjusted for the individual. He doesn't throw everyone into the same fire, if Hell even literally involves any fire in the first place.

I agree that free will does not exist. That being the case, how can their be any justice in intentionally creating flawed beings, holding those beings to a perfect standard, and then punishing them for eternity for being the flawed beings he created them to be unless the deterministic processes in their brains just happen to cause them to choose to turn to him for forgiveness. How can he predestine salvation for just a few at the expense of so many and call that just? If that is justice, then what does justice really even mean?

 

[drjean]

You've stuffed the ballot box. You are the one who determined the people will go to hell. God did not... God desires for all to come back to Him.

God did not want near-rote beings as the angels (who also had free will, but who's main focus was upon Him by design.) God created mankind with which to fellowship and to be worshipped and loved back from their own volition. Obviously, many have missed the point, wouldn't you say?

 

[MagickMonkey]

You've stuffed the ballot box. You are the one who determined the people will go to hell. God did not... God desires for all to come back to Him.

God did not want near-rote beings as the angels (who also had free will, but who's main focus was upon Him by design.) God created mankind with which to fellowship and to be worshipped and loved back from their own volition. Obviously, many have missed the point, wouldn't you say?

Well, I haven't stuffed anything. I don't believe there is a hell or a god to send me there. But it seems as though most versions of christianity, especially the most fundamental, accept the doctrine of hell. If a god created people who he knew would choose to go to hell, regardless of the degree to which they have free will, how could he not at least be significantly responsible for their damnation. If he knew the results and made the decision anyway...

And I don't know that many have missed the point but simply see the point as nonsensical. Why does he want worship at all? What's wrong with getting that from near-rote beings? If the end result of the process of salvation is people who will give you the kind of praise you would expect from angels, then why does a process requiring most of creation to be damned make the results more special?

It boggles my mind to wonder why a god would desire worship. I can see why humans do. In social animals, social hierarchy matters. Those at the top of a social structure have more access to resources and mating rights. The desire to be at the top of a social hierarchic is part of what motivates social animals to put themselves at the top to have those resources and mating rights. But why would a god have any need or desire for worship? Why does he need humans to validate his self esteem?

 

[Girder of Loins]

This question is based on the following assumptions of god, so it applies only to this particular kind of god. If your god doesn't match these assumptions then ignore the question.

1. god is omniscient
2. god is loving
3. god is merciful
4. hell exists
5. free will exists

Question:

Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

Let me add some to this.

6. God is justice
7. God is wrathful
8. Heaven exists

Question:

Since God is justice, who is He to judge?

 

[aiki]

Well, I haven't stuffed anything. I don't believe there is a hell or a god to send me there. But it seems as though most versions of christianity, especially the most fundamental, accept the doctrine of hell.

It's clearly taught in the Bible.

If a god created people who he knew would choose to go to hell, regardless of the degree to which they have free will, how could he not at least be significantly responsible for their damnation. If he knew the results and made the decision anyway...

Why does God's foreknowledge oblige Him to prevent a person from making a terrible mistake? Doing so would be tantamount to suspending free will, which He values as a necessary part of being genuinely loved by His creatures. God could've made us all puppets, unable to choose to do anything other than what He wished, but He didn't want puppets; He wanted people who could freely choose to love and obey Him. God preventing decisions we might make before we make them is essentially the same as God suspending the exercise of free will.

And I don't know that many have missed the point but simply see the point as nonsensical. Why does he want worship at all?

God deserves our worship. He is utterly and totally worthy of all the glory and praise we can give Him. If God did not receive any worship from any of us, however, He would not be diminished in the slightest. God doesn't need our worship, but He most certainly deserves it. And it is because this is so, that He commands us to give Him His due.

What's wrong with getting that from near-rote beings? If the end result of the process of salvation is people who will give you the kind of praise you would expect from angels, then why does a process requiring most of creation to be damned make the results more special?

"More special"? I don't know what you mean.

It boggles my mind to wonder why a god would desire worship. I can see why humans do. In social animals, social hierarchy matters. Those at the top of a social structure have more access to resources and mating rights. The desire to be at the top of a social hierarchic is part of what motivates social animals to put themselves at the top to have those resources and mating rights. But why would a god have any need or desire for worship? Why does he need humans to validate his self esteem?

He doesn't. See above.

Selah.

 

[elman]

I agree that free will does not exist. That being the case, how can their be any justice in intentionally creating flawed beings, holding those beings to a perfect standard, and then punishing them for eternity for being the flawed beings he created them to be unless the deterministic processes in their brains just happen to cause them to choose to turn to him for forgiveness. How can he predestine salvation for just a few at the expense of so many and call that just? If that is justice, then what does justice really even mean?

If free will is defined as the ability to love or not love your neighbor--do you still deny it exists? I concur with the rest of your post, but I do not believe God punishes anyone except by not giving them eternal life, if they chose a wicked or unloving life style.