impossible paradoxes of faith

[dr truth]

No, I'm sorry but your entire view is distorted.

Then it should be a simple matter to explain why an omniscient loving merciful god would create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell.

 

[dr truth]

Just pointing out that there is nothing novel about your question. It's a variant of one that was posed millennia ago and addressed in various ways since.

Great, and the answer is......?

 

[Metal Minister]

if he's omniscient he also knows the actual outcomes. if he doesn't, he isn't omniscient.

Knowing all possible outcomes means He knows all the outcomes. Period. If we come to a fork in the road, God can see all possible outcomes from either decision. You see the problem with this "paradox" is that it assumes God has a limited intelligence like we do. He does not. His knowledge is infinite. We are viewing the future and eternity from a single point in time, the present. God can see from eternity to eternity. Past present and future only exist to is. God is eternal. We cannot conceive of that kind of depth, our brains just simply cannot handle that type of information. God has no such limitations.

 

[ebia]

Great, and the answer is......?

I've pointed to two. One that addresses it as logical philosophy and points out the logical flaw. The more ancient that answers it with a story. I prefer the latter approach.

 

[Nanopants]

in purely logical terms, it isn't omniscience.

The question assumes an omniscient god. We can do a less gifted version of god on a different thread if you like but I'd like to stick with the omniscient kind on this thread please.

If I were to design an ai to play against in a game of chess, that alone might display my skill as a software engineer, but since computers are deterministic machines I would know every move it would make before-hand. On the other hand, if I want to design this ai to display my chess playing skills, then I would have to incorporate some element of unpredictability in its decision making process so that I could not possibly know exactly what it would do in every case. Also, an intelligence that could fully comprehend the problem space of all possible futures would have to be incredibly vast as compared to one which comprehends only a single, static course of events. If you want to suggest that a God with that kind of ability is somehow less gifted than the alternative, well, fair enough, but it's only an opinion.

 

[dr truth]

I've pointed to two. One that addresses it as logical philosophy and points out the logical flaw. The more ancient that answers it with a story. I prefer the latter approach.

you have given poor answers to a different question, you have not even addressed my question.

 

[dr truth]

If I were to design an ai to play against in a game of chess, that alone might display my skill as a software engineer, but since computers are deterministic machines I would know every move it would make before-hand. On the other hand, if I want to design this ai to display my chess playing skills, then I would have to incorporate some element of unpredictability in its decision making process so that I could not possibly know exactly what it would do in every case. Also, an intelligence that could fully comprehend the problem space of all possible futures would have to be incredibly vast as compared to one which comprehends only a single, static course of events. If you want to suggest that a God with that kind of ability is somehow less gifted than the alternative, well, fair enough, but it's only an opinion.

the god of this question is omniscient.

 

[ebia]

you have given poor answers to a different question, you have not even addressed my question.

The logical flaw applies as much to your variant as to the usual form.

One could rewrite the narrative to address your variant but I suggest you apply a bit more imagination and read it as is.

 

[Nanopants]

the god of this question is omniscient.

Does that mean God must know of a triangular square in order to be omniscient? If God exists, God is omniscient, and free will is not an illusion, then at least some of our decisions must be unknowable until we invent them.

 

[dr truth]

The logical flaw applies as much to your variant as to the usual form.

One could rewrite the narrative to address your variant but I suggest you apply a bit more imagination and read it as is.

again you are saying that my question is really a different question, you are giving me an answer to the different question and saying it applies to my question.

I am asking 2+2=?

You are replying 3+3=6.

I lack the necessary imagination required to make your answer to a different question answer my question.

By the way, suggesting that "I apply a bit more imagination" is an attack on me, not an answer to my question.

 

[dr truth]

Does that mean God must know of a triangular square in order to be omniscient? If God exists, God is omniscient, and free will is not an illusion, then at least some of our decisions must be unknowable until we invent them.

god is either omniscient or not. For the purposes of this question he is omniscient. I want to try to keep it simple rather than going off on various tangents, or we will never get to the answer to this specific question. Would you like me to post another question with a god who is not omniscient? I can certainly do that if you like.

 

[Nanopants]

god is either omniscient or not. For the purposes of this question he is omniscient. I want to try to keep it simple rather than going off on various tangents, or we will never get to the answer to this specific question. Would you like me to post another question with a god who is not omniscient? I can certainly do that if you like.

If god creates people knowing they will go to hell, he is neither merciful nor loving. So your answer can't be right.

Alright then, if you're willing to rephrase that to:

If god creates people knowing only some will be saved, then he is neither merciful or loving.

...my answer would be:

If God laid His own life down to save those who love to follow Him in doing the same for others, it shows Him to be merciful, loving and just.

 

[amandatea]

Lucifer was the originator of sin. He manipulated 1/3 of all the angels in heaven to take his side - even though Jesus gave him many chances to repent from his vanity and pride. But Lucifer continued in his stubborn path and was subsequently booted out of heaven along with his followers. Why did God not simply destroy Lucifer? Because to do so, would show the remaining loyal angels that either you agree with, and obey God or you are dead meat. This negates the concept of free will which is God's greatest gift to us.
He had to let wickedness run its course in order to show that God's way of things of the only way that truly brings and maintains peace, love and joy.
He created man as a new form of life who would have the capacity to understand his love for creation (offspring) and be in charge of his own destiny (make decisions to shape his life). This was a new type of creation. Satan hates anything to do with God or his creation so he immediately set to work in destroying this new creation in any way possible.
God gave us the opportunity to choose to trust him or do or own thing. He gives all many chances, continuously to choose to believe him and obey him, bringing unconditional joy, or live for ourselves and believing, ultimately, Satan's lies, leading to emptiness. In the end, when sin has completely ripened, and the world no longer follows any of his laws - therefore being completely dead because life flows only from God - he will have to close probation and make a final judgment. This is when Satan will finally have to admit that God is, indeed just and fair and all who ever lived will confess as much. God will have to wipe out sin completely. If, at this time, you are still a person who had not accepted the gift of eternal life, you will be a part of that sin and, be part of that destruction. God loves all and does not wish that any perish, but he lets us make that decision because he will not force us to do what we don't want to do.

 

[crimsonleaf]

As a Christian I think some of the answers to the OP have been disingenuous and evasive. Certainly some have tried to answer a different question.

So let's try to be honest. What is presented here is, and always has been, a question of great debate. I'll agree that it poses problems, and all I can sensibly say is that we don't know how God thinks. There are bigger questions still - why did he create us in the first place? He doesn't NEED anything, including our love or devotion. God needs nothing.

But he did create us. My belief in God doesn't hinge on the answer to the OP. God's plans are a genuine mystery to me, and I strongly suspect to everyone else too.

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

This question is based on the following assumptions of god, so it applies only to this particular kind of god. If your god doesn't match these assumptions then ignore the question.

1. god is omniscient
2. god is loving
3. god is merciful
4. hell exists
5. free will exists

Question:

Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

Since you are apparently asking about God as defined by the Bible, you need to modify the attributes definition. If you don't define God accurately your question is irrelevant.

Add: God is judge
Modify: God is conditionally merciful
Modify: God is conditionally loving

Also, a definition of hell is in order because it does affect your premise.

 

[food4thought]

I have a few thoughts to add to this discussion, but they might seem disingenuous to you... believe me when I say that is not my intent.

God is omniscient, knowing every detail of every life and atom in His creation. Man does have free will, as God chooses to enact His plan around and through our choices... all God has done in this regard is give us the freedom to choose freely, and knowing what those choices will be, plots a path that leads to the greatest eternal good. As for hell, I do believe in it as well.

I confess that I do not fully understand these things, but in FAITH I believe that God is good, and if hell means eternal unending conscious seperation from God, then in faith I believe that God in His omniscience has a GOOD reason for it to be so. Not being omniscient, I have not the capacity to know what this good may be... perhaps it has something to do with the eternal state and the security of the believer, perhaps something else, I don't know.

Honesly, though, the eternal and unending conscious punishment vision of hell is not DEMANDED by the Bible except in the case of Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet (see Revelation 20:10). It is not the vision that many sincere and true Christians hold, however. If the idea of a loving, good God and eternal punishment is all that stands between you and faith, by all means abandon the idea of eternal, unending, conscious punishment and receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior!

You may not be able to post about your beliefs regarding hell here, and some people may denounce you as a heretic, but that is nothing of consequence in light of eternity.

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

I
Honesly, though, the eternal and unending conscious punishment vision of hell is not DEMANDED by the Bible except in the case of Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet (see Revelation 20:10).

You are correct! That's why it's important to define 'hell' when talking about 'hell'.

 

[golgotha61]

This question is based on the following assumptions of god, so it applies only to this particular kind of god. If your god doesn't match these assumptions then ignore the question.

1. god is omniscient
2. god is loving
3. god is merciful
4. hell exists
5. free will exists

Question:

Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

God created mankind so that mankind may enjoy God and all that God is. It was for God's own good pleasure and glory that He brought into existence the cosmos along with mankind.

God created man to glorify Him and worship Him. This is accomplished by obedience to God's character. God created mankind with the ability to choose and just because He knows who will choose Him and who will not does not make the inferred indictment of complicity effective.

God's love and mercy are demonstrated by His death on the cross and the resurrection demonstrates His power over death. If He were not merciful, He would have left mankind in a lost condition.

I believe that if God were to create only those whom He knew would choose to glorify and worship him, the worship and glorification would be hollow. If I want my children to love me and reflect who I am to the world around us, they must do it because they love me because of my characteristics and not because they have no choice. Love without choice is not love.

 

[elman]

However you like, it makes no difference to the question. If hell exists then it is hell, not heaven.

Then lets define it as death or non existence. Now where is the problem?

 

[GrayAngel]

This question is based on the following assumptions of god, so it applies only to this particular kind of god. If your god doesn't match these assumptions then ignore the question.

1. god is omniscient
2. god is loving
3. god is merciful
4. hell exists
5. free will exists

Question:

Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

No free will. You will not one a single verse in scripture which says that God gave us free will. The omniscience and omnipotence of God makes such a notion logically impossible. The reverse, called predestination, is directly spoken of and promoted in the Bible.

God is loving, but not towards all people. He loves His people, the one's He predestined before the creation of the world. The Bible is very clear that there are people God hates.

God is merciful because we don't deserve any good thing from a perfect God. That is part of the whole point. We weren't entitled to anything, but He sent His son to justify us and redeem us anyway.

Hell exists as a place of justice. All people do good any bad in their lives, and without forgiveness, God will correct all wrongs and reward all good. Contrary to popular opinion, Hell is adjusted for the individual. He doesn't throw everyone into the same fire, if Hell even literally involves any fire in the first place.