impossible paradoxes of faith

[dr truth]

This question is based on the following assumptions of god, so it applies only to this particular kind of god. If your god doesn't match these assumptions then ignore the question.

1. god is omniscient
2. god is loving
3. god is merciful
4. hell exists
5. free will exists

Question:

Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

 

[ViaCrucis]

This question is based on the following assumptions of god, so it applies only to this particular kind of god. If your god doesn't match these assumptions then ignore the question.

1. god is omniscient
2. god is loving
3. god is merciful
4. hell exists
5. free will exists

Question:

Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

How are we defining Hell?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dr truth]

How are we defining Hell?

-CryptoLutheran

However you like, it makes no difference to the question. If hell exists then it is hell, not heaven.

 

[Metal Minister]

This question is based on the following assumptions of god, so it applies only to this particular kind of god. If your god doesn't match these assumptions then ignore the question.

1. god is omniscient
2. god is loving
3. god is merciful
4. hell exists
5. free will exists

Question:

Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

The problem is, this is somewhat simplistic. God originally created man void of sin, and so therefore Hell was not an issue. However, God wants us to love Him by choice, not force(no robots in heaven) and Adam and Eve had both. When they sinned, they were separated from God, because they were now no longer perfect. He is trying to get us by that same free will to choose Him. However, because of our sin nature, and human arrogance, many will flatly deny Him. I'll put it to you this way. If you were going to have a child, but you knew there was a possibility that they may not love you, would you simply not have the child, miss out on the love that child could bring for the chance they MIGHT reject you? Most people would answer, that they would still have the child. That is God's plan, that all come to salvation and return to Him. Some will, some won't, bit He still gives us the chance to choose for ourselves. I might point out that there is no paradox here.

 

[Nanopants]

Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

I don't know, but my guess is that it was a necessary price to pay in the creation of those who would prefer to choose rightly by their own free will.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Platos cave? I mean maybe we will get out of the shadows of lifelessness ignorance and decay by using intelligence will and heart. I think that eternity may be the fact that once tre always true so even a tickle participates. I think that hell by its nature has less being than life as it is a product of and experince of anti life forces. It is an evolutionary branch "in decline" as neitzsche would say.

 

[dr truth]

I'll put it to you this way. If you were going to have a child, but you knew there was a possibility that they may not love you, would you simply not have the child, miss out on the love that child could bring for the chance they MIGHT reject you?

This is a distorted version of my question and does not constitute a valid explanation.

God doesn't know that there is a possibility that someone will reject him before he creates them. He knows everything. He's omniscient. So he knows for certain before he creates them who will go to hell.

Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

 

[dr truth]

I don't know, but my guess is that it was a necessary price to pay in the creation of those who would prefer to choose rightly by their own free will.

If god creates people knowing they will go to hell, he is neither merciful nor loving. So your answer can't be right.

 

[ebia]

This question is based on the following assumptions of god, so it applies only to this particular kind of god. If your god doesn't match these assumptions then ignore the question.

1. god is omniscient
2. god is loving
3. god is merciful
4. hell exists
5. free will exists

Question:

Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

1. IMO God chooses not to know everything in advance. It seems to me the bible is quite clear about that.
2. I assume the bible is right in saying you can't just have those that will choose to be healed. And it's better to have a world where some do and some do not than a world without humanity at all.

 

[dr truth]

When they sinned, they were separated from God, because they were now no longer perfect.

This is another can of worms. First, god is omniscient, so he knew Adam and Eve would sin. So he knew that all of humanity was to be condemned to hell before he said 'let there be light'. (To himself, presumably.)

Second, if god is perfect, then he would not create something that he knew would become imperfect. Another impossible paradox of faith.

 

[dr truth]

1. IMO God chooses not to know everything in advance.

then your god is not omniscient, and the question doesn't apply to your god.

 

[ebia]

The question is simply a variant on "if god is omnipotent and merciful he should wipe out evil..."

Firstly it does not logically follow - it fails to take into account that God may have a good reason ...

Secondly, the bible addresses this question directly with a story - Genesis chapters 6-9.

 

[Nanopants]

If god creates people knowing they will go to hell, he is neither merciful nor loving. So your answer can't be right.

Free will implies a future that is open to some degree. If omniscience is the knowledge of every aspect of the course of all events in the future, then there is no such thing as free will, just an illusion of it. On the other hand, if omniscience is the knowledge everything that is knowable about all possible futures, then perhaps a sovereign, all-knowing God can determine an outcome on a macroscopic level while leaving room for an undetermined outcome on the level of individuals.

In theological terms, I would call that judgment.

 

[dr truth]

The question is simply a variant on "if god is omnipotent and merciful he should wipe out evil..."

Firstly it does not logically follow - it fails to take into account that God may have a good reason ...

Secondly, the bible addresses this question directly with a story - Genesis chapters 6-9.

this is not an answer to the question. It is a claim that my question is some other question followed by a claim that this other question is illogical.

 

[dr truth]

Free will implies a future that is open to some degree. If omniscience is the knowledge of every aspect of the course of history, then there is no such thing as free will,

true. another paradox of faith.

On the other hand, if omniscience is the knowledge everything that is knowable about all possible futures, then perhaps a sovereign, all-knowing God can determine an outcome on a macroscopic level while leaving room for an undetermined outcome on the level of individuals.

In theological terms, I would call that judgment.

in purely logical terms, it isn't omniscience.

The question assumes an omniscient god. We can do a less gifted version of god on a different thread if you like but I'd like to stick with the omniscient kind on this thread please.

 

[Metal Minister]

This is a distorted version of my question and does not constitute a valid explanation.

God doesn't know that there is a possibility that someone will reject him before he creates them. He knows everything. He's omniscient. So he knows for certain before he creates them who will go to hell.

Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

No, I'm sorry but your entire view is distorted. God will use whatever means He chooses to bring people back to Him. He may use the free will of one denier to bring a dozen people back to Him. Free will doesn't interfere with God's plan, and His plan all along was that Jesus would become the saviour of the world. He knew Adam and Eve would sin, because of Satan,(whom hell was originally created for in the first place) He knew you and I would sin, but Jesus can wash that sin away and make us justified before God. If you'll pardon my lackluster responses, its extremely late where I am, so give me a bit to catch some sleep, and I will gladly answer you far more coherently then.

 

[Metal Minister]

Free will implies a future that is open to some degree. If omniscience is the knowledge of every aspect of the course of all events in the future, then there is no such thing as free will, just an illusion of it. On the other hand, if omniscience is the knowledge everything that is knowable about all possible futures, then perhaps a sovereign, all-knowing God can determine an outcome on a macroscopic level while leaving room for an undetermined outcome on the level of individuals.

In theological terms, I would call that judgment.

I think you're very close on your last part, but I think what it is, is that He can see all possible outcomes. The good and the bad. He may not by choice interfere, but He knows where each choice may lead, and can use each choice by each person to bring someone else closer to Him. Again, sorry, exhausted...G'night all!

 

[dr truth]

I think you're very close on your last part, but I think what it is, is that He can see all possible outcomes.

if he's omniscient he also knows the actual outcomes. if he doesn't, he isn't omniscient.

 

[dr truth]

this has been fun. gotta sleep! laters.

 

[ebia]

this is not an answer to the question. It is a claim that my question is some other question followed by a claim that this other question is illogical.

Just pointing out that there is nothing novel about your question. It's a variant of one that was posed millennia ago and addressed in various ways since.