IMPORTANT MESSAGE (ussually when something says this people disregard it) READ NOW!

JSGuitarist

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hello, i am an atheist and i wish to discuss theological topics with someone . if you can convince me i will convert. i would however be quite intrested is just a plain discussion , to better inform me about fundamentalism , and to inform you about atheism.

:amen:

I suppose we could, but I want to ask first, what appeals to you about being a Christian? What is it about being a Christian that would make you desire it? I mean, it's a very difficult life.
 
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Thank you for being interested in Christianity. But Christianity is a religion, and I expect I feel the same way about religion as you do: no interest at all. I have no respect for religion.
On the other hand, if you are talking about a relationship to a Person, the Lord Jesus Christ, NOW you are talking about something real!!!! This One I would be pleased and honored to represent and discuss.

Julian of York
"For Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive honor, and glory , and power; for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created." Revelation 4:11
 
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foodiepeep

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Atheo, no offense, but you remind me of a pharisee in many ways. It seems that you expect to be given a reason or proof that would necessitate you becoming a believer. It should be that you have a desire to be a follower because you have a need for a connection with the Lord, NOT because there's a payoff for being a Christian.
 
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JoeyWhiteshoes

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ATHEO:
"The atheist god. Helps in a lot of stuff if you pray to him. Or not. Whatever. The atheists claim to have no God but if you investigate you'll find they really worship drugs/money/sex/power/sin/are a different sect of Muslims according to the latest researches"... Urban Dictionary

I looked at your other post and you seem to have some issues with God. I don't know how you can have issues with God if, by definition of an athiest, you don't believe in Him.

I guess we could have theological discussions, like "why does God allow suffering?", "is there a hell?", and "can creation be proved?", etc but it all comes down to the central figure of God. Since you don't believe in God, it would be kind of pointless.

As Christians, somewhere along the line, we have felt what we thought of as God calling us to Him. Maybe He was. Maybe He wasn't and it was all in our mind. We choose to believe that He did and live our lives accordingly.

Joey :waaah:
 
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GalactusOmega

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I suppose we could, but I want to ask first, what appeals to you about being a Christian? What is it about being a Christian that would make you desire it? I mean, it's a very difficult life.

Excuse me? A very difficult life? What's difficult about accept Christ as Lord and Savior? What's difficult about accepting Christ's love into your heart and living a good and Godly life?

I don't live each day feeling as though it's difficult - that my faith makes my life some kind of ordeal I have to get through. I live each day with joy and gratitude to our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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sealacamp

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I live each day with joy and gratitude to our Lord Jesus Christ.

Joy and gratitude are indeed a reality for each of us however that does not negate the inherant difficulty of life and the increase in difficulty of this life when we follow the Lord. There is a resistance we get from the world and downright hatred from some sources here and even persecution in other places. In fact not a day goes by that our brethren are not tortured or murdered or imprisoned, or have everything they own taken merely because they/we follow the one true true God who is incarnate in Jesus Christ our Lord. If you have not found life difficult then perhaps you are more fortunate than many other people are or have been, as the case may be.

Sealacamp
 
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GalactusOmega

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Joy and gratitude are indeed a reality for each of us however that does not negate the inherant difficulty of life and the increase in difficulty of this life when we follow the Lord. There is a resistance we get from the world and downright hatred from some sources here and even persecution in other places. In fact not a day goes by that our brethren are not tortured or murdered or imprisoned, or have everything they own taken merely because they/we follow the one true true God who is incarnate in Jesus Christ our Lord. If you have not found life difficult then perhaps you are more fortunate than many other people are or have been, as the case may be.

Sealacamp

Though there are trials and travails in every life, Christian or not, I find that having placed my life and my fate in Christ's hands is a great source of peace and comfort. Knowing that all my Christian brethren are also cradled in Christ's loving embrace is also a source of comfort, and not something I find at all 'difficult'. All the trials and all the pain of this world are transitory for those of us who have accepted Christ and will share eternal life with Him. How much worse must a life be without Christ? I believe it is those people who have the truly difficult lives.

I'm surprised you don't feel the same way - I thought all Christians felt the same way. Blessed, rather than forced to endure a difficult life

Matthew 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

YIC,
Galactus
 
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sealacamp

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I thought all Christians felt the same way. Blessed, rather than forced to endure a difficult life

I never said I didn't feel that way. What I did say was that there are inherent difficulties that are specific to following Christ which I don't glaze over or deny, mostly because they are in my face daily. Christ even warned us about this and said that difficulties will come with following Him. Prominently but not solely that they world will hate us and do things to undermine us as His people. Though I am blessed and this supersedes any difficulties I am not in denial about difficulties. Rather I am prepared and aware of issues so that I may better deal with them when confronted. I don't feel forced to endure anything. Rather I choose to endure all things for Christ in whom I am forever grateful. There are blessings and there are problems for us all. Being in denial about anything can be detrimental to anyone so it is essential to be aware and prepared of all things.

Sealacamp
 
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JSGuitarist

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Excuse me? A very difficult life? What's difficult about accept Christ as Lord and Savior? What's difficult about accepting Christ's love into your heart and living a good and Godly life?

I don't live each day feeling as though it's difficult - that my faith makes my life some kind of ordeal I have to get through. I live each day with joy and gratitude to our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Savior part is perfectly easy, but the Lord part is a bit tougher.

For the first part, Jesus said the following:

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’ Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples." - Luke 14:26-33.

Christ exhorts people, before they come to him, to seriously consider whether or not they have what it takes to be a disciple. He compares it to a man who begins building a tower, but did not consider whether or not he could finish it; and when all is said and done, he gives up, and people laugh at him and make fun of his failure. The other part is that of army that is coming to wipe out his own, representing the demands of the Gospel. The king realizes that he must either fight and be defeated, or he must somehow make peace with his enemy; in the same way, coming to Christ is not just a mental assent to that other army's superiority, but a surrender to it. This suppose two things: 1.) For some reason, that you and God are not currently at peace, but the two of you are at emnity with each other, and 2.) you do not have the resources to overcome Him.

And here are the terms of peace that Christ has set down:
Whoever loves their father, mother, brothers, sisters, spouse, or even his own life, more than Christ, he is not a Christian. If he is not willing to leave all his relations behind in order to obey Christ in everything, he cannot be saved. If he will allow his family to draw him away from obedience, and on their account he is willing to be a half-Christian, not having a resolute dedication to follow Christ and turn from all sin, he is not a Christian. Of course, Christ never promised peace with our relatives, but He did promise there would be ugly division in households over the Gospel (Matthew 10:34-37). It is possible for your own children or your own spouse to become the greatest enemy to the Gospel that you know, yet you must set your face like flint and press forward anyways.

If you do not pick up your cross every day, you cannot be His disciple. The man who was crucified was considered the lowest of society. His name was a reproach, and the sentence of death weighed on his mind. The Christian is commanded to live with the mindset that he may possibly lose his own life, and he must be willing to lose it. And even if he does not physically die, he must live with the mindset that the world will hate him, and they will not be afraid to show it, not only for what he believes, but they will also hate him for his holy life, for the very things that the Bible calls good and wholesome, and also for the fact that the Christ hates what the world does. Jesus said that the one who is blessed is the one who is persecuted (Matthew 5:11).

He must give up everything. Everything. If Christ is not worth the selling of your property, the giving up of every sin, the dying to your own pleasures daily, sacrificing even your civil rights for the sake of being godly, everything, you cannot be a Christian. And you may very well be called on to do it some day. You have no right to disbelieve any verse of Scripture, no right to disbelieve a single doctrine taught, no right to overlook a single positive or negative command at the risk of losing his soul if he persists in his defiance (Matthew 5:19). Christ is good, He is kind, and will not treat ayn wrongly; yet to be with Him, you must be divorced from the world and all that is in it, because the world hates him, and He will not take divided love.

Christ never offered an easy life, but the promises are that it will be difficult. All twelve apostles died the deaths of martyrs; the early church was subject to heavy persecution; and if you go to other nations where Christianity is hated, you know that a profession is real for the fact that a person knows if he is to become a Christian, he will be hated by his family and will probably be killed for it; and yet they know too that if they refuse the offer of the Gospel, despite their endangered life, they might save their bodies but they will lose their souls, fear being no excuse. If you read through the book of Acts, no sooner had the Holy Spirit come than a violent persecutor arose with an intense desire to kill off all who professed the name of Christ. You read Paul's accounts of his own missionary journey, he faced death constantly, faced hunger, nakedness, was often persecuted by unbelievers, by professing followers of God, and was put to death in the end. And who is to say that the same thing will never happen in America?

In short, the one who wants to keep his own life will be lost, but the one who loses his earthly life will be saved.

You asked me, "What's difficult about living a godly life?" It's this right here, that American Christianity resembles almost nothing of true Christianity. A great number of people believe they are saved because they were baptized, they prayed a prayer, that they made a profession, and they emphatically and happily declare that they are Christians, and yet most aspects of the Gospel are unappealing to them. They believe in going to church (if they have time), but if you propose the idea of meeting every Sunday (or at least making a strong attempt to meet with other brothers and sisters), they complain that you demand they spend all their time in church. You talk about separation from the world, they say that you are proposing we all live in a cave. You touch their favorite movies and music, you are called a legalist. If you propose the idea of self-examination to make sure you have truly come into the faith, they say that you are being too introspective and you're sinning by doubting the promises of God (despite that it's an explicit command of 2 Corinthians 13:5). They will say that we need to be moderate in religion, that we should not try and be too holy, and yet Christ said it'd be better you cut off your hands, feet or gouge out your eyes than indulge the least of sin (not that the Christian becomes perfect in this life, but the Christian is called on to continuously die to sin), or that to disregard the least of the commandments of God, and to teach others to do the same, is to your peril. Of course none will ever be perfect, and by faith we are justified, yet the implication is that daily you will die to sin and seek grace to overcome sins, even the small ones, that you will seek to better please God and will be more desirous to part from sin, but this also is undesirable to many, because many still secretly love their sins. I need not get into the aspects of false versions of the Gospel, such as in the Word of Faith which tells you that lack of healing is from a lack of faith (among many other things), the appealing works-righteousness of the JW and the Mormon cults or the Catholic church. But also, American professors of the faith are dreadfully indifferent to other religions, imagining that so long as one believes in a god that they are saved, when Christ said that there is only one way.

This is my intention with the OP: A person might decide to take up a profession of faith on the basis that the doctrine is high, the Bible is infallible, it stands far above every other religion on Earth, and that the historical or evidential testimony is high and indisputible, but if these are the reasons that the person comes to Christ, he has come for an entirely unbiblical reason. These will not save you, and many are lost despite believing these things. It is not assent to doctrine, not assent to beliefs, or the Bible's conformity with science, that is reason to be a Christian, but the reason that the man realizes that he is a sinner, God proclaims he is so, and he must repent and turn from his sin and trust in Christ to save him if he wants to live. If he does not come for this reason, he does not come at all. If it's just about a change of lifestye, or it seems like a good move, you have to ask yourself why you would even want to be a Christian, because nothing about it is pleasing to an unsaved man (it's the greatest of pleasure for the saved, but not for the unsaved). If he doesn't come because he is a sinner in need of pardon, he doesn't come at all. It would be better that he never took up a profession of faith than take one up and not follow through. That is my point: If you come for the wrong reasons, you are only making a suicide dash into a war zone that you are not equipped to face.

To the OP: I'm still willing to have these theological discussions with you, though I think by necessity our discussions should begin with particular topics. I by no means want to discourage you from becoming a Christian, because in Jesus Christ there is pardon from every sin, a new heart and life imparted that hates sin, and a great love for Christ that is above the love of any person. To be a Christian is a tremendous honor, and stands above the honors of being a king. I have brought up a lot of difficulties in this post with the Christian life, by the power of God they can all be overcome, but if you come for a simple change of lifestyle, you must know that your enemy is too great for you, and you will fail. If you will come accepting the terms of peace as they are laid down in Scripture--that is, knowing you are a sinner, that your sin is detestable and worthy of damnation, that you have pardon nowhere else but in Christ, that you must be born again and be made into an entirely different man, and that by faith in Christ you can be saved--you will be saved, most certainly, and you will be brought through every difficulty without fail.
 
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Harry3142

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Atheo-

I think that it would be more beneficial for me to explain to you my personal belief than for me to attempt to convince you of the rightness of Christianity.

The Old Testament laws, aka Mosaic Laws, were never intended as a 'roadmap to heaven'. Instead, they were a set of laws that enabled what was little more than a ragtag mob to become a cohesive society. We could call it the Hebrew equivalent of The Code of Hammurabi.

Even the reward which God promised them in return for their loyalty to his laws and commandments had nothing whatsoever to do with an afterlife. Instead, it was a very pragmatic, here-and-now contract. They obeyed in this life; they were rewarded in this life:

If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land - your grain, new wine and oil - the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you. You will be blessed more than any other people; none of your men or women will be childless, nor any of your livestock without young. The Lord will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible dieases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you. (Deuteronomy 7:12-15,NIV)

By the time of Jesus Christ's coming among us there were some Jews who believed in an afterlife. There were even some, such as the Pharisees, who taught that if they kept the Mosaic Law they could earn their way into heaven. Jesus confirmed that there was indeed a life which came after this one had ended, but he 'shot down' the teaching that we could 'make points with God'. Instead, he told us quite clearly what God's attitude is toward our own efforts:

"Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? Would he not rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' " (The Gospel of St. Luke 17:7-10,NIV)

In modern-day terminology, to do something on behalf of the furtherance of the kingdom of God, while expecting to be rewarded for what you've done, is comparable to driving on the highway and having a cop 'pull you over' so that he can give you money for driving safely. We are to be childlike in our faith, but not childish in our attitude toward our own work. We Christians are to do the tasks set before us for no other reason than we recognize that the tasks are there to be done, and we are capable of doing them.

But we are never to consider ourselves as good enough to get into heaven 'under our own power'. With God there's no such thing as a person's being 'good enough' to enter his presence. Either their righteousness is perfect, or they are doomed if left to their own devices. But God, The Author of Justice, chose not to leave us to our own devices, and instead took action himself to remedy the situation. What was impossible for us to accomplish working from this side of the chasm between our natures and God's requirements, was possible for God to accomplish from his side of that chasm:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified frely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

The only righteousness that God accepts as true righteousness is his own righteousness. With it we are saved; without it we are doomed. And God himself has earned on our behalf the right for us to ask him for this righteousness. We cannot substitute our own righteousness for it; we don't have righteousness in and of ourselves insofar as God's concerned. Likewise, we cannot augment his righteousness with our own. Jesus made that quite clear in his teachings concerning new wine in old wineskins and a patch from new cloth being sewn onto an old garment.

Realistically, even what we do after accepting the salvation that God offers us is to God's credit rather than to ours. We have a code of conduct, but it is based on how cooperative we are with the Spirit of God as he does the work, rather than our obeying a set of laws:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

When you look at 'the acts of the sinful nature' and 'the fruit of the Spirit' the majority of what you see are the underlying emotions which culminate in either sinful acts or righteous actions. We cannot change our emotional makeup; that's beyond our power. But God's Spirit can change what we cannot, so we trust him to get the job done. The emotions which used to lead to sinful acts are 'reined in' and then replaced with the emotions which make up the 9 'fruit' brought with him by the Spirit.

I hope this helps you understand Christianity a little better. You may disagree with our belief, but at least you now know what it is that you are disagreeing with. God bless-
 
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nChrist

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hello, i am an atheist and i wish to discuss theological topics with someone . if you can convince me i will convert. i would however be quite intrested is just a plain discussion , to better inform me about fundamentalism , and to inform you about atheism.

:amen:

You have nothing to offer or inform us about. On the other side of the coin, we have everything to offer and inform you about.

See the links in my signature area.
 
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cranberries

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ATHEO,
I can explain to you that people and the heavens and the earth have a Master designer and Creator,they did not just appear.I can explain to you that we all,every human make mistakes,we hurt peoples feelings,insult each other,critisize people,hold grudges,fail to show mercy,lie,be selfishand so on.All humans do someof these things sometimes because we are sinners and deep inside our conscience knows we do wrong things or have selfish love,not unconditional forgiving love.We need a Saviour because we are sinners and our loving Creator who has all Authority and power,provided the only way to wash away our sins so that we can life,his life,a life of eternal peace and love,health and hope and inner rest and fulfillment.To know Jesus is to have everlasting life with Jesus.Jesus is life,the resurrection and the Life.Without Jesus there is no life only death to look forward to.The Holy Spirit testfies of Jesus and reveals Jesus and leads us into all Truth.I wonder if you would consider asking Jesus that if he does exist that he soften your heart and reveal himself,the Truth to you.Ask him with an open honest willing heart.Ask Jesus to show you your need of a Saviour,and read the four gospels,Mathew,Mark,Luke and John.Only Jesus can teach you Truth.Are you willing to hear him.
 
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cranberries

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hello, i am an atheist and i wish to discuss theological topics with someone . if you can convince me i will convert. i would however be quite intrested is just a plain discussion , to better inform me about fundamentalism , and to inform you about atheism.

:amen:

Hi Atheo,

I was wondering how ou are coming in your exploration of christianity.Ihope you are doing well and finding answers to your questions.
 
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