Immaculate Conception

PeaceByJesus

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I dont however believe politics are spiritual. Jesus was neither Republican and democrat. Try preaching the gospel in one hand and the GOP or DNC propaganda in the other.
That is irrelevant. Conditional submission to government is analogous to conditional submission to pastors and teaching. That is all the point was.
You must not know this though, i assume.
Indeed, and i know that you continue to resort to false dilemmas, that since some teaches lead astray then none are needed.
You dont need another teacher brother, you need to read the scriptures for yourself and seek the spirit.
In that case i do not even need you to tell me this, while in reality your rejection of any the illuminating benefits of teachers is contrary to Scripture.
Teachers have lead you astray and you dont even know it.
Prove it.
 
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Extraneous

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You are right. As one who is independent of others, then you do not belong in the church to which God says,

For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. (1 Corinthians 12:14-21)

But that is essentially your claim as concerns Scriptural teachers.

Brother , i have severe problems that make Church very difficult, even impossible. Do you think i like being this way? I had to learn on my own because i didnt have anyone to teach me. I did study with others online, but i never followed a teacher. The more i learned about the teaching of Paul , the more i learned that most teachers are teaching flawed doctrine. I couldn't follow them anymore because I couldn't agree with Politics in the Church which only stains the pure Gospel of love, nor could i agree with Catholicism, or prosperity preaching either. I had to follow what i saw Paul teaching
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Everything you are talking about is good bible study, but its hardly hidden knowledge that will help me follow Christ better.
WRONG, and which blindness again testifies to your need of teachers, for to follow Christ includes correcting errors, as Christ did, reproving others for their ignorance in making claims, while establishing His own by Scripture. (Mt. 22) And likewise the things i asked you for pertain to such.
Do you know what will help me? Putting away debate and instead following the simple doctrine of Christ. That's the power of Christ, not this theological stuff. Thats what i was trying to emphasize.
As much as you want to appeal to the undefined "simple doctrine of Christ," that itself involves theology, and in the real world a follower of Christ must engage in this, and which is going on right in this debate thread with a RC.
 
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Extraneous

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I hope you can answer my questions as quickly as you concluded i had none.

Which response again testifies to your need of teachers, for "love" is defined in Scripture, and it simply do not exclude rebuke, but includes it, and your contentions that you have need of nothing in the way of teachers (at least) is simply not Biblical Truth.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; ..Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Ephesians 4:11,13)

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; (1 Timothy 3:2)

Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; (Romans 12:6-7)


Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. (Galatians 6:6)

I been through this debate before. I use to be the one arguing your position. I learned however that a man can learn without a teacher, and maybe even better. Look at your own words. Am i mistaken or did you say that Catholicism is not teaching correctly? Will you now change your opinion and now say that i should observe the Popes teaching on Mariology?
 
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Extraneous

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WRONG, and which blindness again testifies to your need of teachers, for to follow Christ includes correcting errors, as Christ did, reproving others for their ignorance in making claims, while establishing His own by Scripture. (Mt. 22) And likewise the things i asked you for pertain to such.

As much as you want to appeal to the undefined "simple doctrine of Christ," that itself involves theology, and in the real world a follower of Christ must engage in this, and which is going on right in this debate thread with a RC.

Ok.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Brother , i have severe problems that make Church very difficult, even impossible. Do you think i like being this way? I had to learn on my own because i didnt have anyone to teach me. I did study with others online, but i never followed a teacher. The more i learned about the teaching of Paul , the more i learned that most teachers are teaching flawed doctrine. I couldn't follow them anymore because I couldn't agree with Politics in the Church which only stains the pure Gospel of love, nor could i agree with Catholicism, or prosperity preaching either. I had to follow what i saw Paul teaching

But which again is a false dilemma, btwn either having no need of teachers who help us follow Christ and submitting to pastors or that of being deceived, yet as shown, being taught and discipled, submitting to pastors simply does not equate to unconditionally following them, but it means that while we are to esteem them [who are over you in the Lord, and admonish you] very highly in love for their work's sake, (1 Thessalonians 5:13) it means, as said, that all is subject to Scripture, to prove all things thereby.

But it sounds like you have a "wounded spirit," because with bitterness, and thus have put up such a barrier that it is actually doing you harm and divisive.
 
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Extraneous

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That is irrelevant. Conditional submission to government is analogous to conditional submission to pastors and teaching. That is all the point was.

Indeed, and i know that you continue to resort to false dilemmas, that since some teaches lead astray then none are needed.

In that case i do not even need you to tell me this, while in reality your rejection of any the illuminating benefits of teachers is contrary to Scripture.

Prove it.

Ok. Thank you. Im hopeless then. Thanks for answering my questions.
 
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Extraneous

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But which again is a false dilemma, btwn either having no need of teachers who help us follow Christ and submitting to pastors or that of being deceived, yet as shown, being taught and discipled, submitting to pastors simply does not equate to unconditionally following them, but it means that while we are to esteem them [who are over you in the Lord, and admonish you] very highly in love for their work's sake, (1 Thessalonians 5:13) it means, as said, that all is subject to Scripture, to prove all things thereby.

But it sounds like you have a "wounded spirit," because with bitterness, and thus have put up such a barrier that it is actually doing you harm and divisive.


Yes submission is needed i agree. I cant submit to false doctrine though. You sir are fighting a lost cause. You think you can argue with Catholics and change their mind. You cant. Their teachers wont let them learn the truth. Thats why i wanted to shine lite on the truth, which is that Christ himself will teach us. Im a fool however. I know that once you get sucked into religion you never come back. Only a few will escape that mess. I was fortunate, i had no choice but to learn for myself.

You cant see that truth however, and its you who are blinded brother. I guess we are done now.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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I been through this debate before. I use to be the one arguing your position. I learned however that a man can learn without a teacher, and maybe even better. Look at your own words. Am i mistaken or did you say that Catholicism is not teaching correctly? Will you now change your opinion and now say that i should observe the Popes teaching on Mariology?

One again you are resorting to a false dilemma, that since i hold that Catholicism is not teaching correctly then i either agree with you that we do not need teacher or i observe the Popes teaching!

But the reality is that that i have been able to argue much more effectively against the errors of Rome not only (and primarily) but the manifest illumination of the Spirit in reading Scripture, but also by the research and arguments of others.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Yes submission is needed i agree. I cant submit to false doctrine though.

But again, the former does not have to equate to the latter. Timothy was a student of Paul, but he was pointed to Scripture as the wholly inspired assured word of God.
You cant see that truth however, and its you who are blinded brother. I guess we are done now.
The manifest blindness has been on your part, sorry to say brother.
 
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Extraneous

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But again, the former does not have to equate to the latter. Timothy was a student of Paul, but he was pointed to Scripture as the wholly inspired assured word of God.

The manifest blindness has been on your part, sorry to say brother.

Typical theological nonsense. You haven't taken one thing i have said seriously. You just keep talking about false dilemmas. You think i must know the front and back of the bible to be saved? Do you think i was challenging you to a bible quiz? No sir, i was referring to the Gospel, not the law of moses. What i need it to follow the commands of Christ. You act like im lost and need you to save me with your great knowledge of scripture and theology. You look more like a pharisee to me brother. You may have understanding about things in the bible, but you seem to be missing the best and most important things of all.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Typical theological nonsense. You haven't taken one thing i have said seriously. You just keep talking about false dilemmas. You think i must know the front and back of the bible to be saved?

Which is absurd, as certainly it is possible one can be saved by just reading the book of Acts for instance, but the issue here was the need for teachers,

"For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry [which includes apologetics], for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Ephesians 4:12-13)

Which Scriptural truth you objected to.
Do you think i was challenging you to a bible quiz? No sir, i was referring to the Gospel, not the law of moses. What i need it to follow the commands of Christ.
But which flow from the foundation of the law of Moses, and knowing just how they do is just one example of where the benefits of having teachers comes. Esp. for those who do not have the time to search out all such matters, or the same insights. And as the devil knows the Bible better than both of us, he will use any ignorance of Scripture to deceive people.
You act like im lost and need you to save me with your great knowledge of scripture and theology. You look more like a pharisee to me brother. You may have understanding about things in the bible, but you seem to be missing the best and most important things of all.
No, i am correcting your false teaching that you do not need the office of teachers, as its the Holy Spirit and you. Resorting to your ad hominems simply is consistent with that.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Look, trading insults isn't any good. Have a blessed day. I'll do the same. No hard feelings brother.
OK. May you find all the grace God has provided for you.
 
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Extraneous

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Which is absurd, as certainly it is possible one can be saved by just reading the book of Acts for instance, but the issue here was the need for teaches "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Ephesians 4:12-13)

Which Scriptural truth you objected to.

But which flow from the foundation of the law of Moses, and knowing just how they do is just one example of where the benefits of having teachers comes. Esp. for those who do not have the time to search out all such matters, or the same insights. And as the devil knows the Bible better than both of us, he will use any ignorance of Scripture to deceive people.

No, i am correcting your false teaching that you do not need the office of teachers, as its the Holy Spirit and you. Resorting to your ad hominems simply is consistent with that.

How can you correct me when you cant even correct yourself?
With respect, there isn't any perfect saints here. People argue over their denomination and politics, and that misses the whole point. Who is perfecting their saints anyway? Whos right? Who teaches the right way? Things are not as you say they are. No one is being perfected, they are instead just arguing over theology, and it never ends, and no one ever changes. I see it, same people same old arguments. Thats not perfection, its just a waste.

I about lost my mind trying to figure out which way to go. Thats what your beloved theology did to me. I had to take a more simple approach. It was the only logical answer i could find besides giving up, which i just cant seem to do.

So i decided to take the Lords word that he would teach me himself, and i took the simple gospel message into my heart and i left the divided denomination stuff laying in the dust.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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How can you correct me when you cant even correct yourself?
Which simply another vain spitwad in lieu of an actual example.
Who is perfecting their saints anyway?
Many many overall sound preachers help do so, both old and new. I have listened or read Leonard Ravenhill, Duncan Campel, B. H. Clendennen from the past and been edified, even if i may not agree with all they teach, likewise with preachers/teachers from the present, such as Paul Washer or Michael Brown.

In any case God ordained this means, so you need to stop excusing your dismissal of this, for your rejection of such is throwing the baby out with the bath water, seemingly due to your negative experiences/wounded spirit.
So i decided to take the Lords word that he would teach me himself, and i took the simple gospel message into my heart and i left the divided denomination stuff laying in the dust.
But which simply does not translate into needing no teachers. You continue to use two extremes in order to justify your rejection of what God ordained.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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I hate religion. I do. I dont see how anyone could love it.
Which is another example of your reactionary extreme opposites, for you seem to need to be taught that not all religion is evil, for

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. (James 1:27)
 
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patricius79

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Actually the only transcendent substantive body of Truth that the Spirit of God affirms is wholly inspired of Him is that which is called Scripture.

I don't think the Bible says that. Christians in the Bible went by the Word of God in written and oral form. I do agree that the Scriptures are an essential part the Word of God, which teaches that Mary is the Immaculate Conception. It may seem better to rely on Scripture alone, but what that ultimately means--even after seeking help from extra-Biblical sources---is relying on one's self as the final judge of the meaning of Scripture. This leads to many errors, since our strength is in the Body of Christ, the Son of Mary our Queen and not as isolated members.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Actually the only transcendent substantive body of Truth that the Spirit of God affirms is wholly inspired of Him is that which is called Scripture.
I don't think the Bible says that.
You don't? Then you need to read it and find any other such body of Truth of which it is said,

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (2 Timothy 3:16)

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:21)

Now go find where;

1. it is said that all oral tradition (extraScriptural transmission) is given by inspiration of God, or;
2. that all that the church ever officially formally declares on faith and morals to all the church will be given by inspiration of God, or even that it will be true since the church possesses the gift of (conditional) ensured veracity;
3. including whatever she says is the oral word of God, and that this is assuredly the case since the church possesses the gift of #2.


And how this is charism is essential to know what is of God and its meaning, since that is the real basis for assurance for faithful RCs.
Christians in the Bible went by the Word of God in written and oral form.
But upon what basis do we know that either was indeed the word of God? See last question.
I do agree that the Scriptures are an essential part the Word of God,
But you hold that when the pope or councils with the pope speak infallibly then that is also the word of God? Are they speaking as wholly inspired vessels of God as with Scripture? And that thus they cannot contradict Scripture, while church law is the supreme law?
which teaches that Mary is the Immaculate Conception.
No, it does not, and you or your sources are utterly unable to show that Scripture teaches this, nor was the weight of Scriptural warrant the basis for thus, but from which Caths attempt to extrapolate support from due to challenges from evangelical types.

“Christians have never gone to Scripture for proof of their doctrines until there was actual need, from the pressure of controversy...” — Letter to the Rev. E. B. Pusey" contained in Newman's "Difficulties of Anglicans" Volume II, Dignity of Mary
It may seem better to rely on Scripture alone, but what that ultimately means--even after seeking help from extra-Biblical sources-
You are contradicting yourself. If one is doing the latter then he is not doing the former. And while Scripture alone is the wholly inspired standard and sufficient in its formal and material aspects, providing the Truth needed for salvation and growth in grace, this do not exclude the church.

Even Westminster Confession (which in some places could use better description ) states, "It belongeth to synods and councils, ministerially, to determine controversies of faith," etc., yet "All synods or councils since the apostles' times, whether general or particular, may err, and many have erred; therefore they are not to be made the rule of faith or practice, but to be used as a help in both." (Westminster, XXXI)
--is relying on one's self as the final judge of the meaning of Scripture. This leads to many errors, since our strength is in the Body of Christ, the Son of Mary our Queen and not as isolated members.
Habitually repeating mandatory adoration of the unscriptural mary of Catholicism is actually an argument against you, while your argument also applies to relying on the church alone, with its sanctioned help from extra-Biblical sources, to know what is of God, is actually relying on one's self as the final judge of the meaning of Scripture and leads to many errors.

For the fact is that RCs can interpret their supreme authority like as evangelicals can, and in fact those whom Rome counts and treats as members in life and in death are less unified in core beliefs and values overall than those who hold the strongest view of Scripture.

And do not resort to the "living magisterium" argument, for RCs hope in vain for timely definitive answers from popes and councils, and which, when they teach, can actually result in more confusion and or division.

As one poster wryly commented,
The last time the church imposed its judgment in an authoritative manner on "areas of legitimate disagreement," the conservative Catholics became the Sedevacantists and the Society of St. Pius X, the moderate Catholics became the conservatives, the liberal Catholics became the moderates, and the folks who were excommunicated, silenced, refused Catholic burial, etc. became the liberals. The event that brought this shift was Vatican II; conservatives then couldn't handle having to actually obey the church on matters they were uncomfortable with, so they left. — Nathan, http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2005/05/fr-michael-orsi-on-different-levels-of.html

Thus relying on men as the sure and supreme authorities on Truth, while attractive, means being subject to change, as V2 examples, while Scripture does not change.

And while relying on the weight of Scriptural substantiation in word and in power for the veracity of teaching and unity opens up to the door for competing claims, yet this is how the church began, and requires overcoming evil with God, versus veracity resting upon the premise of ensured magisterial veracity, as per Rome and cults.

Meanwhile, although many RCs cherish a mythical view of their church, and dismiss liberals from being Catholics, contrary to Rome's manifest judgment, the fact is that what doctrinal unity Rome can claim is limited and largely on paper, while her fruit is all over the map.
 
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