Immaculate Conception

[Horseless Headsman]

Pay attention to primarily verse 4 here. I'm not sure if this is ever used to support the Immaculate Conception, but I came across it in my reading this morning, and that's the first thing that crossed my mind. I'm not Catholic.

Job 14
English Standard Version (ESV)

Job Continues: Death Comes Soon to All

1 “Man who is born of a woman
is few of days and full of trouble.
2 He comes out like a flower and withers;
he flees like a shadow and continues not.
3 And do you open your eyes on such a one
and bring me into judgment with you?
4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?
There is not one.

If Jesus was/is clean, and he absolutely was/is, then Mary couldn't have been unclean according to this verse. But then, of course, we run into the problem of, "Was Mary's mother clean, then? And so on and so forth?"

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Pay attention to primarily verse 4 here. I'm not sure if this is ever used to support the Immaculate Conception, but I came across it in my reading this morning, and that's the first thing that crossed my mind. I'm not Catholic.

Job 14
English Standard Version (ESV)

Job Continues: Death Comes Soon to All

1 “Man who is born of a woman
is few of days and full of trouble.
2 He comes out like a flower and withers;
he flees like a shadow and continues not.
3 And do you open your eyes on such a one
and bring me into judgment with you?
4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?
There is not one.

If Jesus was/is clean, and he absolutely was/is, then Mary couldn't have been unclean according to this verse. But then, of course, we run into the problem of, "Was Mary's mother clean, then? And so on and so forth?"

Hmm… The context of Job 14:4 does not seem to suggest that the idea of ‘bringing a clean thing out of an unclean one’ refers to birth. It seems more like Job is reflecting on the ephemerality of human life, not so much that Mary would have to be clean so that Jesus would be clean.

Anyway, defending the Immaculate Conception of Mary flies in the face of the fact that the Bible says we are all sinful (Romans 3:23), even from our mother's womb (Psalms 51:4-5). Also, it would create the exact problem you have mentioned, with regard to Mary's parents, and then her parents, and so on, and then all of Humanity.

The truth is that Mary did not have to be sinless so that Jesus would be sinless. A possible explanation is that Jesus had an abnormal birth: he did not have a biological father. Perhaps that was the reason that he would have to be born of a virgin, with no male intervention: had he not, he would probably have been sinful, because he would have had a normal birth. It is possible that sin is only transmitted by both the father and the mother (this makes sense if we consider that Adam and Eve only realised that they were naked after both had sinned; after Eve alone had sinned, nothing happened). Another thing to bear in mind is that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, which is also weird in itself. And another thing to bear in mind is that Jesus is God.

So, ultimately, too many uncommon and unrepeatable circumstances took place at Jesus' birth for us to apply this rule, suggested by Job 14:4, to his birth.

Rest assured that Mary is not immaculate! She was a sinner like all of us.

 

[Albion]

The truth is that Mary did not have to be sinless so that Jesus would be sinless. A possible explanation is that Jesus had an abnormal birth: he did not have a biological father. Perhaps that was the reason that he would have to be born of a virgin, with no male intervention: had he not, he would probably have been sinful, because he would have had a normal birth. It is possible that sin is only transmitted by both the father and the mother (this makes sense if we consider that Adam and Eve only realised that they were naked after both had sinned; after Eve alone had sinned, nothing happened). Another thing to bear in mind is that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, which is also weird in itself. And another thing to bear in mind is that Jesus is God.

And we need to keep in mind that the subject is the Immaculate Conception, not being Immaculate. As some have said, there is no reason why Mary couldn't have been cleansed of all sin upon the Angel's declaration to her, or at some time thereafter. The idea that she had to be conceived immaculately is quite unnecessary, even if being sinless were shown to be important for some reason.

 

[Hank77]

Pay attention to primarily verse 4 here. I'm not sure if this is ever used to support the Immaculate Conception, but I came across it in my reading this morning, and that's the first thing that crossed my mind. I'm not Catholic.

Job 14
English Standard Version (ESV)

Job Continues: Death Comes Soon to All

1 “Man who is born of a woman
is few of days and full of trouble.
2 He comes out like a flower and withers;
he flees like a shadow and continues not.
3 And do you open your eyes on such a one
and bring me into judgment with you?
4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?
There is not one.

If Jesus was/is clean, and he absolutely was/is, then Mary couldn't have been unclean according to this verse. But then, of course, we run into the problem of, "Was Mary's mother clean, then? And so on and so forth?"

Scripture tells us that the original sin or sin nature or both were passed on by Adam, not Eve, to his children and continue through each generation from father to children. Therefore, Mary did not need to be sinless in order for Jesus to be sinless because He did not have a human father.
So in Job speaking in human terms of parents this would be true. No human father can make his children clean. Only our Father in heaven could provide the means to do that.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

And we need to keep in mind that the subject is the Immaculate Conception, not being Immaculate. As some have said, there is no reason why Mary couldn't have been cleansed of all sin upon the Angel's declaration to her, or at some time thereafter. The idea that she had to be conceived immaculately is quite unnecessary, even if being sinless were shown to be important for some reason.

Cleansed of her sin upon the angel's declaration? Hmm… Sounds unlikely to me. There is no biblical indication that something like that would have happened. Furthermore, she would sin again, because we sin very often. Therefore, even the idea that she would have to be cleansed of her sin at the moment of Jesus' conception also sounds unnecessary to me.

 

[Albion]

Cleansed of her sin upon the angel's declaration? Hmm… Sounds unlikely to me. There is no biblical indication that something like that would have happened. Furthermore, she would sin again, because we sin very often. Therefore, even the idea that she would have to be cleansed of her sin at the moment of Jesus' conception also sounds unnecessary to me.

I appreciate that, but I was just saying that IF there is some necessity for her to be sinless, it still doesn't follow that she was conceived immaculately. But of course, that's the way legends work--the more miraculous the better. The Assumption worked in a similar way. People heard that her grave (that is to say, one of the many places which were claimed as the grave-site of the Virgin) was discovered to be empty, THEREFORE, it was said, she must have been assumed bodily into Heaven--not that something else had happened to it.

 

[Job8]

4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.

What is the proper application of this verse? Does this not correspond to "There is none righteous no not one"? which means that no matter how hard men try to establish their own righteousness, they need the imputed righteousness of Christ in order to enter Heaven. Mary, just like every other human being, needed the imputed righteousness of Christ, therefore she spoke about God her Savior. Only sinners need a Savior, so that should settle the matter.

 

[Root of Jesse]

And we need to keep in mind that the subject is the Immaculate Conception, not being Immaculate. As some have said, there is no reason why Mary couldn't have been cleansed of all sin upon the Angel's declaration to her, or at some time thereafter. The idea that she had to be conceived immaculately is quite unnecessary, even if being sinless were shown to be important for some reason.

Your salvation is unnecessary, too. That doesn't mean you aren't saved...or won't be.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Scripture tells us that the original sin or sin nature or both were passed on by Adam, not Eve, to his children and continue through each generation from father to children. Therefore, Mary did not need to be sinless in order for Jesus to be sinless because He did not have a human father.
So in Job speaking in human terms of parents this would be true. No human father can make his children clean. Only our Father in heaven could provide the means to do that.

Which is what we believe our heavenly Father did for Mary.

 

[Root of Jesse]

What is the proper application of this verse? Does this not correspond to "There is none righteous no not one"? which means that no matter how hard men try to establish their own righteousness, they need the imputed righteousness of Christ in order to enter Heaven. Mary, just like every other human being, needed the imputed righteousness of Christ, therefore she spoke about God her Savior. Only sinners need a Savior, so that should settle the matter.

Right. Men cannot establish their own righteousness. Mary couldn't either. It had to be given to her, which is why she needed a savior. You can be saved before you sin, can you not?

 

[BobRyan]

Pay attention to primarily verse 4 here. I'm not sure if this is ever used to support the Immaculate Conception, but I came across it in my reading this morning, and that's the first thing that crossed my mind. I'm not Catholic.

Job 14
English Standard Version (ESV)

Job Continues: Death Comes Soon to All

1 “Man who is born of a woman
is few of days and full of trouble.
2 He comes out like a flower and withers;
he flees like a shadow and continues not.
3 And do you open your eyes on such a one
and bring me into judgment with you?
4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?
There is not one.

If Jesus was/is clean, and he absolutely was/is, then Mary couldn't have been unclean according to this verse. But then, of course, we run into the problem of, "Was Mary's mother clean, then? And so on and so forth?"

Exactly - once you make the argument that no sinless person can be born to a mother who is a sinner - then you have to kick-that-can all the way down the street until you "discover" that Eve herself was "sinless".

That is all nonsense - invented in the dark ages. Not a word of it in scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

Which is what we believe our heavenly Father did for Mary.

The Holy Spirit caused her to be pregnant with the incarnate Son of God.

Not a procreation - so she was not biologically the "Mother of God" but rather Incarnation of a pre-existing being.

Hence not even ONE statement in scripture calling Mary "the Mother of God".

In fact that ONE time someone did raise the issue with Christ -- His response started with "ON THE CONTRARY..."

 

[Hank77]

Not a procreation - so she was not biologically the "Mother of God" but rather Incarnation of a pre-existing being.

If Mary was not the biological mother of Jesus how could He be the Son of Man?

 

[Rick Otto]

They say He had to have a sinless environment, but if that was true, He would've stayed in heaven.

 

[supersoldier71]

Right. Men cannot establish their own righteousness. Mary couldn't either. It had to be given to her, which is why she needed a savior. You can be saved before you sin, can you not?

Saved from what then?

 

[Rick Otto]

Saved from what then?

From religion.

 

[Albion]

Your salvation is unnecessary, too. That doesn't mean you aren't saved...or won't be.

Has some church made my salvation a dogma binding upon all members?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Has some church made my salvation a dogma binding upon all members?

Yes. If you're saved, your salvation is binding on all Christians. But it's beside the point. You said Mary's immaculate conception is 'unnecessary'. But so is your salvation. So is all our salvation unnecessary. But God gives it anyway. God made Mary immaculate, anyway.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Saved from what then?

Her human-ness.

 

[Albion]

Yes. If you're saved, your salvation is binding on all Christians. But it's beside the point. You said Mary's immaculate conception is 'unnecessary'. But so is your salvation.

My salvation is not a doctrine. It may be a fact, but it's not a church doctrine. The imaginative tale about Mary supposedly having been kept from all sin from the point of her conception forward HAS BEEN made into a dogma by a couple of churches. That's the difference.