If David didnt ascend to Heaven when he died (Acts 2:34-35), why do we think we will go when we die?

Gregory Thompson

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Acts 2:34-35 (NKJV)
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.

John 3:13 (NKJV)
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.a]


Jesus also said no one has ever ascend to heaven but him, so why do we think the moment we die, we go directly to heaven or hell?

This is a case of comparing apples and oranges. Since David could not be born again and enter the kingdom of Heaven, and we can, the question does not follow with the use of the word "we." Unless it is assumed no one on the forum is born again, which I don't discern as your point. Kindly clarify why what applied to David applies to born again children of God.
 
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Optimax

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If David didnt ascend to Heaven when he died (Acts 2:34-35), why do we think we will go when we die?

David died before Jesus came and was raised from the dead.

Therefore David could not go to heaven yet because the penalty for sin had not been paid.

After Jesus was resurrected Ephesians tells us that Jesus led captivity captive, showing that all of the OT saints including David was taken to heaven.
 
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Viren

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**REPOST**

yeah but i find that most have misunderstood luke 17:21 by reading it out of context!

let's see what the verse really says!



Luke 17:20-21(NKJV)
20
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
21nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

first, we notice that Jesus is answering the pharisees (verse 20). so, for those who believe that the kingdom of God is within you, would have to believe that Jesus was saying, that the people He called hypocrites, had the kingdom of God within them!

that simply wouldn't make sense!

the word "within" in the verse is "entos" in the greek (strong's G1787) which means "inside" or "within".

"entos" comes from the root "en" (strong's G1722), which can have the meaning "among".

Jesus is part of the kingdom of God, just like a rose is part of the plant kingdom. so, Jesus was telling the pharisees that the "kingdom of God" was standing there "within" their midst or standing there "among" them!

notice the next verse:


Luke 17:22(NKJV)
22
Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.

notice He references Himself in verse 22, He was standing right there for them to see!

now, the kindom doesn't enter us, we are to enter into it! (see matt 19:34, mark 10:15, 23-25)

we are to inherit the kingdom, matt 25:34.

That interpretation doesn't work, because Jesus said it won't come through observation. Our bodies are the temple so yes it is in us.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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24Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. (see? verses 23 and 24 are consistent with matt 13:37-43, 25:31-34, rev 19:11-16, 20:4-6)
25For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. (when? after the white throne judgment, after the 1000 year reign, rev 20:7-14! - again, time frame)

Christ has received His kingdom, but it has not been established here on earth as of yet! :oldthumbsup:
Yes I agree, Jesus does now reign in heaven, not on earth. This means he sits on a throne. That is my contention, that you implied Jesus sitting on a throne was a future event. As Revelation describes, he now sits in heaven with others also on thrones.
 
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JohnRabbit

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That interpretation doesn't work, because Jesus said it won't come through observation. Our bodies are the temple so yes it is in us.

interesting!

yet the verses clearly state that we ENTER the kingdom!
 
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JohnRabbit

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Yes I agree, Jesus does now reign in heaven, not on earth. This means he sits on a throne. That is my contention, that you implied Jesus sitting on a throne was a future event. As Revelation describes, he now sits in heaven with others also on thrones.

agreed.

i apologize for not being clearer on my point.
:sorry:
 
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Viren

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interesting!

yet the verses clearly state that we ENTER the kingdom!

It's spiritual language. Receiving and entering the Kingdom means being born again and receiving the Holy Spirit. The Kingdom isn't in another location or in a different time. Jesus stated it was at hand (Mark 1:15) and that God has been pleased to give it. (Luke 12:32).

Jesus said to "seek first the kingdom" (Matthew 6:33). He wouldn't have said that if it was sometime in the future.
 
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2KnowHim

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read this very carefully! :oldthumbsup:

Matthew 25:31-34(NKJV)
31When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

question to you. when is "then"?

when you answer that question, then maybe you'll understand t this:


Revelation 20:6(NKJV)
6...but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The Throne that Christ sits on is within you, it is your heart.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (This man of sin, this son of perdition is Us before being born again) and before Christ begins to Reign within us.
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (This is Self/Soul life/The life of Adam/The 1,000 yr. life span of Adam) This is what He Reigns over.


2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (This coming is individual and personal, and is also Within you). It will destroy that wicked that has been our nature, and whom we have all been held captive by which is the devil.
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (The love of Truth, is The Love of God which is IN Christ Jesus our Lord)
 
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2KnowHim

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Christ is reigning in those who have been born again and he is reigning over the carnal mind which is Satan. As it's states in Romans 16:20 "The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet" I think the problem is people forget that the body is the temple of God. If this isn't believed then the temple is desolate and this emptiness is an abomination according to Daniel and Jesus.

Yes, Exactly

To be Carnally minded is Death,
The last enemy to be destroyed is Death, The Carnal mind,
Death and Hell, (The Carnal mind and the torment that it brings,) shall be cast into the Lake of fire,
And there shall be no more Death, (No more Carnal minds) All made Alive.

As in Adam All die, so also in Christ shall All be made Alive.
 
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JohnRabbit

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It's spiritual language. Receiving and entering the Kingdom means being born again and receiving the Holy Spirit.

you're correct in saying that it is "spiritual language" and what i've highlighted in blue is correct (see jn 3:3-12)!

however, these verses are plain:


Matthew 5:20(NKJV)
20For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:21(NKJV)
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Matthew 18:3(NKJV)
3and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:23(NKJV)
23Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 21:31(NKJV)
31...Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you.

Luke 18:17(NKJV)
17Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

Acts 14:22(NKJV)
22strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

they are plain in the fact that they in no way imply that the kingdom enters us, or rather that the kingdom is within us!

Jesus said we will be able to sit down in the kingdom. (see lk 13:29, now i submit that it would be impossible for me to try to sit down inside of you!)

like i said, luke 17:21 is mostly misunderstood!



The Kingdom isn't in another location or in a different time. Jesus stated it was at hand (Mark 1:15) and that God has been pleased to give it. (Luke 12:32).

the prophet joel said that the "Day of the Lord" was at hand - joel 2:1, and that "Day" is yet future!
and here's what Jesus said about His kingdom:


John 18:36(NKJV)
36Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

the kingdom is definitely in another location, per the words of the Christ - the King of the kingdom!

even when Jesus ascended into heaven the apostles asked about the establishment of the kingdom, clearly showing that it had not been established even at the time of the ascension(acts 1:6).


so until the kingdom of God is established here on earth it simply cannot be on earth and definitely not within us!


Jesus said to "seek first the kingdom" (Matthew 6:33). He wouldn't have said that if it was sometime in the future.

we are to seek the kingdom, meaning to be right with God so that we will be worthy to enter:

Luke 13:24(NKJV)
24“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Jesus knew the kingdom would be established sometime in the future because He said we are to pray for the kingdom to come - matt 6:10 (see also matt 25:31-34)
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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David died before Jesus came and was raised from the dead.

Therefore David could not go to heaven yet because the penalty for sin had not been paid.
Understand that it is faith in Christ as our Savior that saves us. Read Heb 11 to learn that saints in the Old Testament were declared righteous because of this faith.
4 By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings.
32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised

Jesus was chosen to be our Savior before creation. It was always in God's plan for him to die for our sins. Do you think that God's grace is bound by God's plan for the giving of grace? Do you think that the Bible that gives us hints of God's plan had to be written for us to be saved? Do you think we must understand and read of God's plan for us to be saved? Scripture has been written thousands of years after creation. Those that lived before God's plan was written down for us in the Bible are saved in the same way we now are saved, by the grace of God. One who thinks that the grace of God is somehow constrained by time does not understand that God is outside of time.
After Jesus was resurrected Ephesians tells us that Jesus led captivity captive, showing that all of the OT saints including David was taken to heaven.
I would like to see where you think scripture implies that the captives Jesus led were dead saints. Jesus himself quotes Isaiah and says captives are those living and today, the day Jesus said it, he fulfilled the prophecy.

Luke 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”
20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Paul in Romans 7 defines what it means to be captive: to follow the sinful nature of our flesh.
23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

Now for your misinterpreted Ephesians passage, Paul prefaces the scripture explaining it to referring to God's grace being a gift from God, given to us, that means those saints alive.

7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says,
“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”
 
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JohnRabbit

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I did, and your understanding of those vs. are literal and not Spiritual, which is Life

i was talking about the literal as it related to lk 17:21!

that was the subject!
 
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JohnRabbit

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If David didnt ascend to Heaven when he died (Acts 2:34-35), why do we think we will go when we die?

David died before Jesus came and was raised from the dead.

Therefore David could not go to heaven yet because the penalty for sin had not been paid.

After Jesus was resurrected Ephesians tells us that Jesus led captivity captive, showing that all of the OT saints including David was taken to heaven.

what you have written here doesn't square with the fact that God says He will raise david from the dead:

Jeremiah 30:9(NKJV)
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them.

and you seem to ignore the fact that this will happen at a time that is yet future!
 
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Viren

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you're correct in saying that it is "spiritual language" and what i've highlighted in blue is correct (see jn 3:3-12)!

however, these verses are plain:


Matthew 5:20(NKJV)
20For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:21(NKJV)
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Matthew 18:3(NKJV)
3and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:23(NKJV)
23Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 21:31(NKJV)
31...Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you.

Luke 18:17(NKJV)
17Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

Acts 14:22(NKJV)
22strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

they are plain in the fact that they in no way imply that the kingdom enters us, or rather that the kingdom is within us!

Jesus said we will be able to sit down in the kingdom. (see lk 13:29, now i submit that it would be impossible for me to try to sit down inside of you!)

like i said, luke 17:21 is mostly misunderstood!





the prophet joel said that the "Day of the Lord" was at hand - joel 2:1, and that "Day" is yet future!
and here's what Jesus said about His kingdom:


John 18:36(NKJV)
36Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

the kingdom is definitely in another location, per the words of the Christ - the King of the kingdom!

even when Jesus ascended into heaven the apostles asked about the establishment of the kingdom, clearly showing that it had not been established even at the time of the ascension(acts 1:6).


so until the kingdom of God is established here on earth it simply cannot be on earth and definitely not within us!




we are to seek the kingdom, meaning to be right with God so that we will be worthy to enter:

Luke 13:24(NKJV)
24“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Jesus knew the kingdom would be established sometime in the future because He said we are to pray for the kingdom to come - matt 6:10 (see also matt 25:31-34)

To enter is to enter into yourself, because our bodies are the temple. (1corinthians 16:19) If you believe it isn't within you it means your temple is desolate. When Jesus says his kingdom isn't of this world he means it's spiritual and not physical. That's why it's a wrong interpretation to think it's in the future and somewhere else. Especially since Jesus commands us to seek it now.

John 14:17

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:20

At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

As seen in these two verses The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are in those who are born again.

Then God's will is able to be done on earth as it is in heaven. In other words God is able to works through us.

Philippians 2:13

"for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."
 
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JohnRabbit

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To enter is to enter into yourself, because our bodies are the temple. (1corinthians 16:19) If you believe it isn't within you it means your temple is desolate. When Jesus says his kingdom isn't of this world he means it's spiritual and not physical. That's why it's a wrong interpretation to think it's in the future and somewhere else. Especially since Jesus commands us to seek it now.

John 14:17

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:20

At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

As seen in these two verses The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are in those who are born again.

Then God's will is able to be done on earth as it is in heaven. In other words God is able to works through us.

Philippians 2:13

"for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."

we are obviously talking apples and oranges!

you are talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit, as far as i know and read, is not the kingdom to come.

i thought that every christian knew that our body is to serve as a temple for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

so i hope you're not suggesting that the pharisees, to whom Jesus was addressing in lk 17:21, had the Holy Spirit within them!
 
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Viren

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we are obviously talking apples and oranges!

you are talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit, as far as i know and read, is not the kingdom to come.

i thought that every christian knew that our body is to serve as a temple for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

so i hope you're not suggesting that the pharisees, to whom Jesus was addressing in lk 17:21, had the Holy Spirit within them!

The Pharisees were asking when the kingdom of God would come and he responded that it is within you. So he was telling the Pharisees where to look in a general sense. The Holy Spirit is God so the Kingdom is where he is.
 
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JohnRabbit

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The Pharisees were asking when the kingdom of God would come and he responded that it is within you. So he was telling the Pharisees where to look in a general sense. The Holy Spirit is God so the Kingdom is where he is.

ok.

have it your way!
 
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BobRyan

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Acts 14:22(NKJV)
22strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”
here's what Jesus said about His kingdom:

Amen

John 18:36(NKJV)
36Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

And Amen!
 
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