I have kissed dating goodbye!

[CCHIPSS]

I don't think any of the guys in this thread, who advocated the idea of waiting to kiss till marriage, have stated that the Bible condemns kissing before marriage. What they said was that they find it easier to remain pure if they don't excite desires through kissing/physical contact.

I also really disagree with the concept that no one is pure. While it is true that all of us are sinners and impure apart from the grace of God, that statement seems like a cop out. I am not condemning guys who do kiss, etc before marriage. I don't personally think that is a sin. (I do think that what the guys in this thread are advocating is a higher standard and safer). I just don't agree with the concept that since none of us are pure, we shouldn't try to have some standards.

I think if any individual wants to not hold hands and not kiss, that is fine it is up to them. However if one day they become a church elder and start preaching that message, it is very dangerous.

I just feels that the more rules we put on Christian dating, the harder it will be. And reality is a large number of Christians are dating non-Christians. We should aim to make Christian dating Christian easier, not harder.

Like I said 80% of the Christians had sex before marriage, as Christians! That means when you see couples in your local church, 80% of them are actively having sex before marriage. They of course will never tell you.

I am not saying sex is acceptable or right. I am just saying that we got to deal with reality.

Take me for example. I refused to have sex with my ex multiple times, against all of that attraction. And I am pretty sure that's one the major reasons we broke up. But I do not regret it. I was very discouraged and hurt. But hey I know I did the right thing. Not sure if I can do the right thing again next time, so I pray that God be merciful toward me.

And I also have this very biased opinion and generalization: The more "holy" someone say they are, the more sins they hide behind close doors.

That's why I prefer that we agree that more things are sins, but we will always love through the sin. Perhaps kissing is a sin. But let's love that person through that sin. Perhaps hand holding is a sin. But let's love that person through that sin.

 

[SnowyMacie]

When I look at a beautiful lady, and my eyes hold onto her for a moment, I consider it lust. Or when I see her I quickly look away, I also consider it lust.

I have a hard time not doing the above even when I am on a date with a lady.

Because something is happening inside of my heart. That lady is not my wife, but yet I "want and desire" her. I am not sure you understand. But guys cannot look at an attractive lady and not desire her in their heart.

If my future wife can read my mind in those moments, she will be hurt. That's why it is a sin.

The worst part is I cannot stop myself. And no man can stop themselves from this. That's why we need forgiveness and understanding from the ladies. We men are all broken. But it doesn't stop us from trying to do the right thing when we can.

I think going into fantasy (e.g. imagine taking her clothes off) would be a step to far. That's pretty much just like watching inappropriate content. Only the guy create his own inappropriate content for himself in his head.

I am terribly sorry that you have come to believe this. Truly, I am. I'm not talking about checking about another woman on a date, that's obviously bad, but that simply finding a woman attractive is lust. You have effectively built yourself an inescapable prison, that's not what Jesus came to preach. Honestly, how do you know you are going to marry her without thinking she's attractive before you marry her? It pained me to read this. I post in the inappropriate contentography Addiction area to help other guys overcome the struggle that I overcame, and another guy by the username "My Chains are Gone" has a website that has some great points about male sexuality and sin, and I think you need to read it, specifically the section titled "The Lies"
http://mychainsaregone.org/lies/introduction/

 

[Toro]

Yep, I work with one of said couples.

She got pregnant. Denied up and down that she was. Even lied and said they don't/didn't do anything ever. All while acting holier than thou.

So not only did she sin in that way, yet she lied multiple times just to protect her image. Silence is not a lie and yet it sends a message that its no ones business and wont be talked about.

All this while she would stand in front of a church full of people teaching the word.

I also found it amusing that a teacher of Christs word failed the "test" the simplest test a Christian should pass. "How do you know that you aren't going to Hell?" Her answer "Im a good person". I said "You are NOT saved by your own works or by being "a good person". Only by grace and blood of Christ." In which she stammered and remained silent.

Then I thought "Good Lord, what is she preaching when she is "leading" all these people that hear her speak?"

 

[historyincognito]

God made humans, male and female and which on of these humans are called to different things. I agree that one should not say they are holier then some one else but if one is singled out for a task by God. He or she should not say that that only way to be pure. The truth is there has only been one Man that 100 pecent pure that was Jesus.

 

[fromtheAsh]

The worst part is I cannot stop myself. And no man can stop themselves from this. That's why we need forgiveness and understanding from the ladies. We men are all broken. But it doesn't stop us from trying to do the right thing when we can.

I think going into fantasy (e.g. imagine taking her clothes off) would be a step to far. That's pretty much just like watching inappropriate content. Only the guy create his own inappropriate content for himself in his head.

Believe me, we understand, women struggle with the exact same thing. Lust is not confined to just a male struggle, it's universal across men and women. It's just not as, for lack of a better term, acceptable, for women to talk about it as much as men.

 

[historyincognito]

You know God works in ways beyond human understanding so maybe this thread is being used by God in ways we can not see.

 

[K9_Trainer]

So if you don't date, how do you find a wife? Would you do an arranged marriage type deal?

I personally have never saw much of a distinction between courting and dating except that traditionally during courting, you have more people involved. But, dating can be done that way too if the couple chooses. Either way, it's still spending time getting to know each other so you can decide on marriage.

 

[CCHIPSS]

I am terribly sorry that you have come to believe this. Truly, I am. I'm not talking about checking about another woman on a date, that's obviously bad, but that simply finding a woman attractive is lust. You have effectively built yourself an inescapable prison, that's not what Jesus came to preach. Honestly, how do you know you are going to marry her without thinking she's attractive before you marry her? It pained me to read this. I post in the inappropriate contentography Addiction area to help other guys overcome the struggle that I overcame, and another guy by the username "My Chains are Gone" has a website that has some great points about male sexuality and sin, and I think you need to read it, specifically the section titled "The Lies"
http://mychainsaregone.org/lies/introduction/

Well sin is an inescapable prison. We all sin. Even the most generous person on earth is selfish sometimes. That's why we all need Jesus. Isn't that the point?

I have no problem calling sin a sin. And that's even when I struggle with it and is perhaps even losing the fight.

I do see your point. If it is a sin to find a lady attractive, then it is wrong to find a lady attractive. Perhaps my view on this is too harsh.

But the problem is when I find a lady attractive, it is never just finding her attractive. There is something in my heart, very deep inside, where I know I want to sleep with her. That is the adultery. I can quickly stop myself and delete that thought, but it already happened. The two things (attraction and adultery) comes hand in hand, so close to each other that they are almost one. But they are separate. Does that make sense?

Blessed is the one who sees a beautiful lady and only admire her beauty like a piece of art, yet have no lust in his heart. But other than Jesus does this person exist?

Here is my point: If God thinks finding a lady attractive is a sin (not saying I know this for certain), then it is. But even if it is a sin it is still ok for me, because I am forgiven. God will use the broken me for his glory.

 

[Faithfulandtrue]

I mean at my church

..I knowjust being silly

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Chivalry is not dead!

Especially here in the Gentlemen's country of Texas

 

[Winepress777]

Hey, maybe as a Christian you can kill two birds with one stone by dating AND feeding a homeless guy?

 

[LoveDivine]

Well sin is an inescapable prison. We all sin. Even the most generous person on earth is selfish sometimes. That's why we all need Jesus. Isn't that the point?

I have no problem calling sin a sin. And that's even when I struggle with it and is perhaps even losing the fight.

I do see you point. If it is a sin to find a lady attractive, then it is wrong to find a lady attractive. Perhaps my view on this is too harsh.

But the problem is when I find a lady attractive, it is never just finding her attractive. There is something in my heart, very deep inside, where I know I want to sleep with her. That is the adultery. I can quickly stop myself and delete that thought, but it already happened. The two things (attraction and adultery) comes hand in hand, so close to each other that they are almost one. But they are separate. Does that make sense?

Blessed is the one who sees a beautiful lady and only admire her beauty like a piece of art, yet have no lust in his heart. But other than Jesus does this person exist?

Here is my point: If God thinks finding a lady attractive is a sin (not saying I know this for certain), then it is. But even if it is a sin it is still ok for me, because I am forgiven. God will use the broken me for his glory.

I don't know if this will help you at all or confuse you, but I did want to comment on lustful thoughts.

I would agree with you that any impure thoughts (even fleeting ones) would always be a sin if it were not for the devil. I don't think we can overlook the huge role of the devil in temptation. If you do have thoughts that suddenly come into your mind that aren't wholesome, but you resist those thoughts and change your focus, you haven't sinned. A person can't control what thoughts or wicked ideas are presented to them by the devil or others. For example, some women do enjoy seduction. A Christian man is not sinning if he is accosted by impure thoughts or suggestions from such a woman's conduct. That is the goal of seduction- to introduce suggestive thoughts and temptation. A man can choose to reject these thoughts or to indulge in fantasy. The choice to entertain and ponder wicked thoughts is the sin. I would consider sin to be a voluntary choice. An involuntary thought that is quickly rejected, can't be considered a sin. I would consider evil thoughts to be a part of the fiery darts of the devil. A Christian does have to be vigilant to rid their mind of such thoughts, but it isn't a sin in itself to have these temptations.

Now, I would add that a person knows his own heart and motivations better than anyone else. If you feel that you are lusting every time you see an attractive woman, perhaps you are currently struggling with lust. Everyone has different weaknesses. Some men may be more prone to lust and others a bad temper etc. You can be sure that if you have a particular weakness, the devil will go after you mercilessly. Sometimes a Christian with a particular weakness has to be radical in the steps he takes to rid his life of specific temptations. (I'm not saying to get rid of all female friends, lol). Some men may not be able to watch tv, surf online, or do anything for a season that introduces specific temptations. (Let's face it, these mediums are brutal for men who have struggled with lust or watching inappropriate content, etc in the past). I don't think that you have to despair that this will always be a struggle for you. I know many people who have overcome bad tempers, jealousy, bitterness, etc. Those sins of the heart are really no different from lust. I agree with you that you will be forgiven for all your sins and that God uses broken and imperfect people. I also believe that God gives broken and imperfect people grace to overcome struggles in this life. There may come a time that you may be able to look back at this season of your life and be amazed at the transformation God has worked in you. I have personally experienced this. I have struggled with various sins or issues that seemed insurmountable in those moments, but I am not plagued by those particular issues currently. (I'm not saying I'm now perfect). There will always be struggles or temptations in this life, but it is possible to overcome and not be defined by a particular sin.

 

[SnowyMacie]

I don't know if this will help you at all or confuse you, but I did want to comment on lustful thoughts.

I would agree with you that any impure thoughts (even fleeting ones) would always be a sin if it were not for the devil. I don't think we can overlook the huge role of the devil in temptation. If you do have thoughts that suddenly come into your mind that aren't wholesome, but you resist those thoughts and change your focus, you haven't sinned. A person can't control what thoughts or wicked ideas are presented to them by the devil or others. For example, some women do enjoy seduction. A Christian man is not sinning if he is accosted by impure thoughts or suggestions from such a woman's conduct. That is the goal of seduction- to introduce suggestive thoughts and temptation. A man can choose to reject these thoughts or to indulge in fantasy. The choice to entertain and ponder wicked thoughts is the sin. I would consider sin to be a voluntary choice. An involuntary thought that is quickly rejected, can't be considered a sin. I would consider evil thoughts to be a part of the fiery darts of the devil. A Christian does have to be vigilant to rid their mind of such thoughts, but it isn't a sin in itself to have these temptations.

Exactly. The temptation itself isn't sinful. I had a preacher explain it like this one day: If temptation was sinful in itself, Satan would not be possible to beat. Mankind didn't fall because they were tempted, we fell because we succumbed to the temptation and sinned. If we truly had to take every thought captive and turn it around, we would spend 100% of our mental energy doing just that, but most of the time we don't need to. If Satan started with sin, nobody would say yes. He said "It would be like if I stood up here and said 'Alright, let's go rob a bank!" nobody would agree. It all starts with a thought, but there's always an out between the first thought and the sinful act itself. This is exactly what Jesus is saying in the Sermon on the Mount, sin doesn't start with the act itself, it stems from a deeper issue.

But the problem is when I find a lady attractive, it is never just finding her attractive. There is something in my heart, very deep inside, where I know I want to sleep with her. That is the adultery. I can quickly stop myself and delete that thought, but it already happened.

This sounds to me like you are looking for it.

The two things (attraction and adultery) comes hand in hand, so close to each other that they are almost one. But they are separate. Does that make sense?

One of the biggest misunderstandings of lust is equivalent with adultery. It's not, it's equivalent with coveting. In Matthew 5, Jesus is almost quoting the 10th commandment. "everyone who looks at a woman with lust" "you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife". He's saying "No, it's not about adultery, it's a coveting issue." We don't really talk about coveting a whole lot anymore, and lust is just a specific kind of coveting. One of my favorite people of all time explains what lust is this way "Lust happens when you turn a person into an object of selfish desire and use." We can't do anything about automatic sexual attraction and arousal, even people who are raped will still sometimes [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. What we can do is learn not to treat humans like objects.

Blessed is the one who sees a beautiful lady and only admire her beauty like a piece of art, yet have no lust in his heart. But other than Jesus does this person exist?

Yeah, you're talking to one of them. I can look at attractive women naked and not lust. It's a matter of choice. I'm not perfect in this, but it's more than possible.

 

[SarahsKnight]

Blessed is the one who sees a beautiful lady and only admire her beauty like a piece of art, yet have no lust in his heart. But other than Jesus does this person exist?

I echo Matt in this. Certainly don't mean to suggest that I am anywhere near Jesus' level, because He never sinned. But I mean, I do truly feel I have been able to think of a girl I see as beautiful and even physically desirable without it going to lust (although I am as guilty of that as any other guy here at times, let me make certain that is understood). Just an admiration and attraction. Recently I have come across such a girl, one I have somewhat befirended as she serves in a place I go to down the street for lunch two or three times a week. Everytime she is there also, and I see her face, especially when she smiles, I am greatly pleased in her company, even feeling something like a warmth in my chest. And it would be crazy for something like that to be condemned as evil or selfish. Somehow, simply with this one girl I can feel that pleasing tranquility and admiration for a face I consider beautiful, without it turning to selfish desire (lust, in my personal definition).

But look, CCHIPS, if you'd rather avoid that entirely, if it has proven too much for you at times to avoid it becoming what you feel is lust, then you have every right to want to avoid it. I just hope that you want to for the right reasons, not because you're just afraid of going to hell if you don't get that part right or something like some believers unfortunately have indicated is the reason they try to stay "pure". I just wanted to support the idea that admiration and attraction doesn't always have to lead to lust with guys; we're not always thinking about just sex 24/7 like the idea might have gotten around as a stereotype.

 

[CCHIPSS]

Exactly. The temptation itself isn't sinful. I had a preacher explain it like this one day: If temptation was sinful in itself, Satan would not be possible to beat. Mankind didn't fall because they were tempted, we fell because we succumbed to the temptation and sinned.

That's a good way to put it! Now I remember that even Jesus was tempted by Satan. For example Satan asked Jesus to pray to God and ask the stones to be turn into bread. So that "sinful thought and idea" entered Jesus's mind. But yet Jesus refused to sin by rejecting that sinful thought and idea.

So having that sinful thought in our head is not a sin. These thoughts came from the devil. Sin only happens when we act on it.

We don't really talk about coveting a whole lot anymore, and lust is just a specific kind of coveting. One of my favorite people of all time explains what lust is this way "Lust happens when you turn a person into an object of selfish desire and use." We can't do anything about automatic sexual attraction and arousal, even people who are raped will still sometimes [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. What we can do is learn not to treat humans like objects.

Maybe it is ok to admire a person from afar. It is also ok to have attraction toward anyone. But once it becomes coveting, like when a man think day and night of a woman as nothing but a body, it is lust and adultery. It is ok to admire a lady for her beauty and her soul. But do not covet after her where you feel you cannot live without her. Because truth is even when you are all alone, all you need is God. Of course having a lady is very important to anyone who feels lonely. But do not covet after any lady. You can and will survive without her (if she don't want you, or she dies, etc). God is still with you.

Slightly off topic. For Matthew 5, I have to point out Matthew 5:21-26. It talks about anger. It seems to state clearly that once you are angry you have already sinned. Once again the thought (a part of the anger) and the sin (another part of the anger, which I can't even describe) are so close, they are almost one. That's why I said for something, the line between the "thought" and the "sin" are too close for humans to separate.

Jesus can separate the "thought of anger" and "sin of anger". We can see that when he used a whip against the money changers at the temple. Jesus was clearly angry, yet he didn't sin. Jesus can do it. Humans probably can't.

The only definition I can come up with is "being fully in love with someone, to the point that you are willing to die for that person, why being angry at that someone for the hurt/pain they caused you." Fully in love + willing to die for + angry. That's the thought of anger without the sin of anger.

But I feel free, because at the end of the day Jesus has already forgiven me of all my sins. I am no longer under the yoke of any sin at all. I only need to try my best.

 

[Messy]

It seems to state clearly that once you are angry you have already sinned.

Another text says if you get angry don't sin.

Ephesians 4:26
26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath

 

[SnowyMacie]

That's a good way to put it! Now I remember that even Jesus was tempted by Satan. For example Satan asked Jesus to pray to God and ask the stones to be turn into bread. So that "sinful thought and idea" entered Jesus's mind. But yet Jesus refused to sin by rejecting that sinful thought and idea.

So having that sinful thought in our head is not a sin. These thoughts came from the devil. Sin only happens when we act on it.



Maybe it is ok to admire a person from afar. It is also ok to have attraction toward anyone. But once it becomes coveting, like when a man think day and night of a woman as nothing but a body, it is lust and adultery. It is ok to admire a lady for her beauty and her soul. But do not covet after her where you feel you cannot live without her. Because truth is even when you are all alone, all you need is God. Of course having a lady is very important to anyone who feels lonely. But do not covet after any lady. You can and will survive without her (if she don't want you, or she dies, etc). God is still with you.

Slightly off topic. For Matthew 5, I have to point out Matthew 5:21-26. It talks about anger. It seems to state clearly that once you are angry you have already sinned. Once again the thought (a part of the anger) and the sin (another part of the anger, which I can't even describe) are so close, they are almost one. That's why I said for something, the line between the "thought" and the "sin" are too close for humans to separate.

Jesus can separate the "thought of anger" and "sin of anger". We can see that when he used a whip against the money changers at the temple. Jesus was clearly angry, yet he didn't sin. Jesus can do it. Humans probably can't.

The only definition I can come up with is "being fully in love with someone, to the point that you are willing to die for that person, why being angry at that someone for the hurt/pain they caused you." Fully in love + willing to die for + angry. That's the thought of anger without the sin of anger.

But I feel free, because at the end of the day Jesus has already forgiven me of all my sins. I am no longer under the yoke of any sin at all. I only need to try my best.

Exactly.

 

[EazyMack]

"How do you know that you aren't going to Hell?" Her answer "Im a good person".

Scary. And she teaches the Gospel?

 

[KandiJo]

Thoughts absolutely can be a sin. I mean, would you want your future spouse to be attracted to someone else and would absolutely date them if they where not with you? Just because you do not act on it doesn't make it okay. "Oh its okay to look at this lady because I am not acting on it." Is typically how people find themselves addicted to inappropriate contentography. Thats how people start affairs. They find someone attractive, and its not a sin because they are totally not acting on it. Then they find themselves seeking that person out, talking to them. Then soon, they start telling them private stuff. BUt thats okay, because its just talking. Then they can't be without that person, and the seek them out on a more personal basis.

It's always been about the heart of the matter. If you want to be with someone other than your spouse, your heart has already sinned because of that want.

 

[SnowyMacie]

Thoughts absolutely can be a sin. I mean, would you want your future spouse to be attracted to someone else and would absolutely date them if they where not with you? Just because you do not act on it doesn't make it okay. "Oh its okay to look at this lady because I am not acting on it." Is typically how people find themselves addicted to inappropriate contentography. Thats how people start affairs. They find someone attractive, and its not a sin because they are totally not acting on it. Then they find themselves seeking that person out, talking to them. Then soon, they start telling them private stuff. BUt thats okay, because its just talking. Then they can't be without that person, and the seek them out on a more personal basis.

It's always been about the heart of the matter. If you want to be with someone other than your spouse, your heart has already sinned because of that want.

That's actually exactly what I was saying.