I hate Repent of your sins to be Saved. it is a false gospel, lie from the pit of hell

[TPop]

Study all of Paul's teaching not just this verse or that verse and I think you will see Paul was not anti "works". What did Jesus say at judgement? Did you feed the hungry,visit the sick ect.and to those who did (sheep) He accepted and those who didn't (goats) he rejected. We're also told by Paul to " work out our salvation". Read carefully in the gospel of John what Jesus himself has to say about judgement. May the peace of Christ be with you.

No one ever said on this thread. That I know of, that Paul was Anti Works.
You are telling us to read carefully, but I do not believe you are reading this thread carefully.

No one here is anti-works. No one is saying works do not matter.
What we are saying is that Works are a Bi-product of Salvation. They don't give you salvation. Trust in Jesus does. Works come after that.

Peace and Blessings

 

[TPop]

You appear to not have read what I wrote. Christ did not "pay" anyone with His death on the Cross, neither the devil nor His Father. He defeated that which was brought into the cosmos by Adam's sin --- death. It is not about "pleasing God" in Orthodoxy. It is about theosis, that is, becoming like Christ in everything but the essence of God (anyone teaching that we become in some way associated with the very essence of God is teaching heresy).

Theosis is that which man was created for. It was God's design to create "little gods" ("God became man so that man might become god" St. Athanasius). This was the plan in Eden which Adam derailed. The Cross restores mankind to God, strips the devil of his wrongly gotten loot (our souls) and gives us back Eden so that by participation with the Holy Spirit in our lives, we can advance in theosis. This is the ancient teaching of the Church which goes back hundreds of years, long before the heresy of "faith alone" was invented by Luther and the Reformers.

We do not create our salvation. Christ alone did that on the Cross. But we do participate in it through our cooperation with the Holy Spirit in the manner in which the Church has established - fasting, prayer, almsgiving, and good works. All of these nourish what St. Paul called "the new man in Christ" within, and starve to death the passions with which we struggle.

I would encourage you to do some reading and study of the ancient faith known as Holy Orthodoxy.

Peace and Blessings to you also.

That is not what you said.

This is what you said. "Jesus didn't "pay" anything."

You are free to change your statement. But do not allocate my words to your new statement.

You live in a world of balance. Always trying to balance on the tightrope of did I lose my salvation? Did I gain my salvation back? How long have I been without my salvation? Because to you, salvation is not a miracle. Anyone could do it. And you do it daily. Or have you found perfection within yourself?

We were with God. In the Garden. But we were not Gods. Lest they become like us???
We cannot be gods. We can have the covering of Jesus, his righteousness, over our filthy rags. So that the Father sees us through Jesus. Not us directly. Because we sin. There is no way we can be joined to the Father in any other way because we sin. Jesus is that mediator for us. Always defending us so we never lose our salvation. Else what is a mediator for? Jesus wins as a mediator for us some days, and not other days, as he sits at the right hand of the Father? Success, failure, success, success, failure failure....

Your orthodoxy does what with the word Eternal? Make it less than eternal? Like from minute to minute, hour to hour, day to day, never knowing your salvation? So no one is assured of Eternal Hell dying as a non-believer, and no one is assured of Eternal Heaven/Righteousness/Salvation as a believer?

There is a lot of Eternal in scripture.

[Mat 19:16 KJV] 16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[Mat 25:46 KJV] 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
[Mar 3:29 KJV] 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
[Mar 10:17, 30 KJV] 17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? ... 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
[Luk 10:25 KJV] 25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
[Luk 18:18 KJV] 18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
[Jhn 3:15 KJV] 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[Jhn 4:36 KJV] 36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
[Jhn 6:54, 68 KJV] 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. ... 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
[Jhn 10:28 KJV] 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
[Jhn 12:25 KJV] 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
[Jhn 17:2-3 KJV] 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
[Rom 1:20 KJV] 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[Rom 2:7 KJV] 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
[Rom 5:21 KJV] 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
[Rom 6:23 KJV] 23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[2Co 4:18 KJV] 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal.
[1Ti 6:12, 19 KJV] 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. ... 19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
[2Ti 2:10 KJV] 10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
[Tit 1:2 KJV] 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
[Tit 3:7 KJV] 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
[Heb 5:9 KJV] 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
[Heb 9:12, 15 KJV] 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us]. ... 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
[1Pe 5:10 KJV] 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you].
[1Jo 1:2 KJV] 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
[1Jo 2:25 KJV] 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.
[1Jo 5:11, 13, 20 KJV] 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. ... 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. ... 20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
[Jde 1:7 KJV] 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Salvation is eternal.

Peace and Blessings

 

[Rsdar]

No one ever said on this thread. That I know of, that Paul was Anti Works.
You are telling us to read carefully, but I do not believe you are reading this thread carefully.

No one here is anti-works. No one is saying works do not matter.
What we are saying is that Works are a Bi-product of Salvation. They don't give you salvation. Trust in Jesus does. Works come after that.

Peace and Blessings

Agree no one has said Paul was anti works. Maybe I needed to get straight to your
point of salvation. The immediate point of conversion or justification is Gods work. The work is then ongoing though, in my opinion . In Romans that we often see referred to Paul is addressing Jewish converts that they should not add adherence to the Torah, such as food restrictions, circumcision and such as necessary in addition to Christ. Christ is sufficient. At the end of the day, in my opinion, Faith plus works are necessary for our final justification. Peace of Christ.

 

[TPop]

Agree no one has said Paul was anti works. Maybe I needed to get straight to your
point of salvation. The immediate point of conversion or justification is Gods work. The work is then ongoing though, in my opinion . In Romans that we often see referred to Paul is addressing Jewish converts that they should not add adherence to the Torah, such as food restrictions, circumcision and such as necessary in addition to Christ. Christ is sufficient. At the end of the day, in my opinion, Faith plus works are necessary for our final justification. Peace of Christ.

So then the Jews were right. Faith + Circumcision.
Or do you for some reason not approve of the work of Circumcision being called a work? Or???

Because Paul is clear. It is not Faith + anything. As in it is not Faith + Us. It is not a joint venture between God and us. Jesus is 100% the source of our salvation. That he died for us to pay the debt. And that he is in heaven as our mediator. Defending us from Satan's constant, nonstop accusations.

Satan 'See, Rsdar sinned twice today. He did xyz and yzx!'
Jesus 'Yes Father. But I paid the price for Rsdar. Rsdar is covered by my righteousness, imputed to him, through me.'

Peace and Blessings.

 

[Guojing]

I repeat, the Apostles never taught this.

Have you read those verses in the first place? Tell me how you would interpret them if you were to read and understand them literally.

It is fine if you were to read them but still conclude that you disagree with the literal meaning of those verses.

Period. If they had, then it would exist in the writings of those Ante-Nicene and Apostolic Fathers who came after Paul, men such as St. Ignatius, St. Polycarp, St. Athanasius, etc. You find no such teaching in the Church for 1500 years until the Protestant "Reformation" came along and invented it.

The clues to why there was "no such teaching in the Church for 1500 years" are perhaps found in Paul's last few scripture passages he wrote before his life ended on this earth.

2 Timothy 1:15

This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

2 Timothy 4

14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.

16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.

 

[Guojing]

"I declare unto you the good news...
By which you are saved, IF you keep in memory what I preached to you,
unless you have believed in vain."
1 Corinthians 15:1-2

Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Ephesians 5:5

1 Corinthians 1:13
John 14:24
1 Corinthians 16:22

Galatians 6:7-9

Once we have the Holy Spirit He will not leave us, we get the Holy Spirit for free by grace for just believing.
Luke 11:13 Galatians 3:2 Ephesians 1:13
A truly born again child of God, is one who actually follows the Holy Spirit they received for free.
John 3:5-6 Romans 8:14

You are agreeing with my point?

 

[Guojing]

Satan 'See, Rsdar sinned twice today. He did xyz and yzx!'
Jesus 'Yes Father. But I paid the price for Rsdar. Rsdar is covered by my righteousness, imputed to him, through me.'

Peace and Blessings.

Why does this not also work if xyz = taking the mark of the beast?

 

[contratodo]

You are agreeing with my point?

Notice that Paul says, "if", and also "unless you have believed in vain"

[If we are going off of just 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 one would have to keep in memory everything Paul preached to them,
which includes Romans Galatians Ephesians and Paul's other letters, that is what you have from Paul is it not?)
So according to that your saved IF you keep in memory what Paul preached to you, if]

Therefore, it is not just believing that gets one into heaven, believing is the start of the journey.

The Spirit does not leave a believer.
Being born again is actually following the Spirit, not just having the Spirit.

One purposefully insulting the Spirit or constantly grieving the Spirit up until they die,
is worthy of worse punishment than a non believer.

The Spirit is not a ticket into heaven, the Spirit is part of the prize of heaven,
one who does not value the gift of the Spirit, does not value heaven.

 

[Rsdar]

So then the Jews were right. Faith + Circumcision.
Or do you for some reason not approve of the work of Circumcision being called a work? Or???

Because Paul is clear. It is not Faith + anything. As in it is not Faith + Us. It is not a joint venture between God and us. Jesus is 100% the source of our salvation. That he died for us to pay the debt. And that he is in heaven as our mediator. Defending us from Satan's constant, nonstop accusations.

Satan 'See, Rsdar sinned twice today. He did xyz and yzx!'
Jesus 'Yes Father. But I paid the price for Rsdar. Rsdar is covered by my righteousness, imputed to him, through me.'

Peace and Blessings.

Again, Paul was addressing converted Jews that the Gentiles did not need to be circumcized. The "works!" being addressed were works of the Mosaic (Torah)Law. Just to be clear are you saying that after ones initial justification in coming to Christ(God) there is nothing you do to maintain that after. Which to me says one believes in once saved always saved which personally I don't think is true. Again, Peace in Christ my brother.

 

[Guojing]

Notice that Paul says, "if", and also "unless you have believed in vain"

[If we are going off of just 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 one would have to keep in memory everything Paul preached to them,
which includes Romans Galatians Ephesians and Paul's other letters, that is what you have from Paul is it not?)
So according to that your saved IF you keep in memory what Paul preached to you, if]

Therefore, it is not just believing that gets one into heaven, believing is the start of the journey.

The Spirit does not leave a believer.
Being born again is actually following the Spirit, not just having the Spirit.

One purposefully insulting the Spirit or constantly grieving the Spirit up until they die,
is worthy of worse punishment than a non believer.

The Spirit is not a ticket into heaven, the Spirit is part of the prize of heaven,
one who does not value the gift of the Spirit, does not value heaven.

See 1 Corinthians 15:13-14 to understand, in context, what Paul meant by believing in vain in vs 2

It does not mean our works are involved.

 

[TPop]

Why does this not also work if xyz = taking the mark of the beast?

Do you think someone saved would blaspheme the Holy Ghost? Is taking the mark much worse than that?
I believe no and yes.

Peace and Blessings

 

[TPop]

Again, Paul was addressing converted Jews that the Gentiles did not need to be circumcized. The "works!" being addressed were works of the Mosaic (Torah)Law. Just to be clear are you saying that after ones initial justification in coming to Christ(God) there is nothing you do to maintain that after. Which to me says one believes in once saved always saved which personally I don't think is true. Again, Peace in Christ my brother.

Yes. A born from ABOVE Christian cannot lose their salvation.
They can have horrible broken fellowship with God.
Notice in scripture, it often talks about sin, and not it's impact on salvation. But it's impact on Fellowship with God.

Peace and Blessings.

 

[Rsdar]

Yes. A born from ABOVE Christian cannot lose their salvation.
They can have horrible broken fellowship with God.
Notice in scripture, it often talks about sin, and not it's impact on salvation. But it's impact on Fellowship with God.

Peace and Blessings.

Bless you, brother. Can we agree to disagree on eternal salvation and enjoy all we share in Christ.

 

[Aviel]

Repenting or (turning from your sin) is not why God will accept you.

Its Repenting of your Unbelief, which is to now have FAITH in CHRIST, is the "repentance" that God accepts to then give you the New Birth.

 

[Light of the East]

Have you read those verses in the first place? Tell me how you would interpret them if you were to read and understand them literally.

It is fine if you were to read them but still conclude that you disagree with the literal meaning of those verses.



The clues to why there was "no such teaching in the Church for 1500 years" are perhaps found in Paul's last few scripture passages he wrote before his life ended on this earth.

2 Timothy 1:15

This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

2 Timothy 4

14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.

16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.

So then, by extension, what you are saying is that the whole of the Christian faith simply disappeared for 1500 years until Messrs.. Luther and Calvin discovered it and brought it back to the world. That none of the Apostolic or Early Fathers of the Church, who did not teach "OSAS" and "Faith Alone" were not really Christians.

 

[Light of the East]

That is not what you said.

This is what you said. "Jesus didn't "pay" anything."

You are free to change your statement. But do not allocate my words to your new statement.

You live in a world of balance. Always trying to balance on the tightrope of did I lose my salvation? Did I gain my salvation back? How long have I been without my salvation? Because to you, salvation is not a miracle. Anyone could do it. And you do it daily. Or have you found perfection within yourself?

Actually, I'm sort of in the middle of all this working on trying to figure it out. I have some ideas, but they are not widely accepted in the world of Christendom. For instance, I find myself in agreement with men such as St. Isaac of Syria and St. Gregory of Nineva who taught that God will bring all men to salvation. That would preclude "losing your salvation."

On the other hand, I don't agree with those who have the idea that once you say a "Sinner's Prayer" (and, according to some, "mean it with your whole heart") that you cannot suffer a severe chastening if you turn back to your sin as a pig returns to the mud.

So, in reflecting this as I type, it seems to me that once you are put "in Christ" through baptism (Romans 6:3) that is unchangeable. You are part of the Kingdom. But if you willfully turn away from that act, then you are in for some serious pain down the road unless you repent.

We were with God. In the Garden. But we were not Gods. Lest they become like us???
We cannot be gods. We can have the covering of Jesus, his righteousness, over our filthy rags. So that the Father sees us through Jesus. Not us directly. Because we sin.

Scripture says differently:

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

If we partake of the divine nature, then we are gods. Not THE God. But gods, as children of the Father.

There is no way we can be joined to the Father in any other way because we sin. Jesus is that mediator for us. Always defending us so we never lose our salvation. Else what is a mediator for?

Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant as the Great High Priest:

Hebrews 8: 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 12: 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

His mediation as Great High Priest is done for the Church as the corporate body, just as it was done in the Old Covenant at Yom Kippur.

Your orthodoxy does what with the word Eternal? Make it less than eternal? Like from minute to minute, hour to hour, day to day, never knowing your salvation? So no one is assured of Eternal Hell dying as a non-believer, and no one is assured of Eternal Heaven/Righteousness/Salvation as a believer?

There is a lot of Eternal in scripture.

Actually, the word "eternal" doesn't appear in Scripture at all. Unless you are using corrupted Western texts which were translated by Roman Catholic Latin speaking translators who didn't know Greek.

Let's look at just one passage of the many you set out.

Luke 18: 18 18:18 Καὶ ἐπηρώτησέν τις αὐτὸν ἄρχων λέγων, Διδάσκαλε ἀγαθέ τί ποιήσας ζωὴν αἰώνιον κληρονομήσω

I put in bold red the word that is mistranslated "eternal" It is the Greek word "aionios" It means "of the age" or "age-lasting." The Greek word normally used for eternal is "adidios"

Salvation is eternal.

Well, being a Universalist myself, I would agree with that statement. I would, however, disagree that you can't in a sense "lose your salvation," the sense being that instead of instantly experiencing bliss and joy, those who have turned back to the sin will lose the rewards they might have had for a holy life and will experience chastening which will be painful in proportion to their sin.

 

[Guojing]

So then, by extension, what you are saying is that the whole of the Christian faith simply disappeared for 1500 years until Messrs.. Luther and Calvin discovered it and brought it back to the world. That none of the Apostolic or Early Fathers of the Church, who did not teach "OSAS" and "Faith Alone" were not really Christians.

Again let me ask you to read those scripture passages and tell me what Paul is literally saying.

You appear unwilling to read and understand scripture for yourself?

 

[Guojing]

Do you think someone saved would blaspheme the Holy Ghost? Is taking the mark much worse than that?
I believe no and yes.

Peace and Blessings

So you are saying certain sins will not be covered by the cross?

Again, I am not trying to trap you, I cannot read your mind so I don't know if that is what you are thinking.

 

[Cockcrow]

So then, by extension, what you are saying is that the whole of the Christian faith simply disappeared for 1500 years until Messrs.. Luther and Calvin discovered it and brought it back to the world. That none of the Apostolic or Early Fathers of the Church, who did not teach "OSAS" and "Faith Alone" were not really Christians.

faith alone for salvation is not some new strange doctrine, it is biblical reality. John 1:12, 3:15-16, 3:36 5:24 6:47 11:25-26 and scores of other scriptures too numerous to list. to deny faith alone salvation means you're trusting in your own merits rather than Jesus Christ alone. you have to deny the bible as final authority to argue against faith alone salvation because Christ said in John 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." to deny faith alone salvation, is to call Christ a liar.

 

[Lukaris]

We are saved by GRACE through faith ( Ephesians 2:8-10, Luke 24:44-48) etc.) This thread elevates faith above grace and disgraces the expression of faith in repentance by basically denying the role of repentance within it.