How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

[LittleLambofJesus]

I sure hope we can get more input from other CF members on Matthew 24.

 

[Notrash]

Uh, that would be a NO as it pertains to the FINAL ACT of the COVENANT with Israel...when he TAKES AWAY THEIR SIN(s) as a REALITY.

None of us can say we have no sin or have not sinned. Sins have yet to be TAKEN AWAY from its' occupancy in our flesh.

Now that said, God in Christ did MAKE A DIVISION of that working in the people of Israel in a TWO FOLD manner.

Some of those workings of HIM when He was here in the flesh was to DIVIDE or CAST OUT the devils from people.

But also DEVILS were also HARDENED against Him such as in the majority of the Pharisees.

And such is the TWO FOLD working of the Word...for the people and against devils. Who God elects to raise and harden remains His choice and election. Should God have wanted to He certainly could have cast out the children of the devil from within the Pharisees...but instead they were hardened in our behalves...til the full number of Gentiles come in and we become partakers in the same covenant desire when HE TAKES AWAY sin from the BODY and MIND. Til then we abide in HOPE and the understanding that we NEED Divine Mercy because of that occupancy in our flesh/minds.



You and I in our basic vision of these matters will continue to have a relatively simplistic difference. I do not look at any man (in the light of the scriptures) and just see ONE SOLE INDIVIDUAL. I know that the DEVIL enters people where THE WORD is sown by the Words of Jesus and it is therefore quite worthless for me NOT to see that fact, even if I don't see horns growing out of their heads. I also take this fact to be a fact for myself.

You do not appear to have this fact in hand, and that reflects in almost all your views. You are in short mancentric and devilshort in your views.

In addition to the MAN and the DEVIL we also have the fact that GOD DWELLS in people as well...so in many we actually have the potential of 3 entirely different and entirely SEPARATE actors on the stage of mankind. Makes things real interesting to me!



Well, there will be a FINAL ACT in these matters of life as it relates to SIN and the finality of same along with evil and death. We are PROMISED an ending of these workings by the scriptures and that has not yet transpired regardless of the spiritualizing of the Word.

And that would be a very narrow and quite worthless view to any who are on earth today of anyone subsequent to that which you believe already happened.

We do look forward to a finale with the putting away of sin, evil and death and the REIGN OF ETERNAL LIFE apart from those workings. This is an integral portion of our Gospel and our HOPE is it NOT?

s

These things highlighted above would be some of the difference between futurists who say Christs work was not adequate to atone for and repulse sin and the preterists who would be more likely to say that all facets of His work on earth "in the flesh" were accomplished during the lifespan of his incarnation. The work is now in the inner man/person of all who the spirit draws to Himself and through his outward influence. "every spirit that does not confess that Christ has come (past tense) in the flesh is the foreign spirit. A futurist implies that Christ must come again.... while a preterist may be more inclined to say that He never left, but that His very Person remained here as the very real Spirit as taught in John 14-16... etc.

A futurist implies or even states that Christ did not fulfill establishing everlasting righteousness or make and end of sin as spoken in Dan 9:24 even though he came to old covenant national Israel while the nation and its ways were still viable (though already pre-determined to be faulty). The first possibly 10,000 or so believers/recievers were those from national Israel in Judea and Jerusalem. But a futurist applies it to a yet future national or PHarisaic Israel as you stated above thus rejecting the finished work of God during his incarnation and the individual nature of the New, everlasting covenant as stated in Jeremiah 31:27(i think).

Yes, in some areas we do not share similar views or perspectives or even it would seem spirits. But any change and transformation to reconcile these would likely be through individual study and revelation.....

In reference to a 'generation' of devil men continuing till the end of the "world". This is not what the Jewish disciples asked about nor what Christ taught in Matt 24. That is not what the word Genea nor AEON mean no matter what the English translation allows us to contemplate. We must attempt to decipher the original intent of the speaker, and the writer as the words were written in their original languages.

Associated concepts with what you present by your 'generation of devils' concepts can be gleaned from other areas in scriptures, in the letters of the apostles and even from the Rev 21/22 area, and I'm not denying that 'devils' cannot and do inspire men... I would think that if you look behind the phallic tower religions, and their extensions, the evidence of continued seed of babylonian counterfeit religions still exist along with attempst to rule and controll the world and enslave it's people. The pharisaics would be part of this and possibly the originators, but not exlusive.

Persons of the "world' or those who seek justification by the law or self-approval by keeping a code of law rather than a are internally super-naturally at odds against the internal peace of the persons of the spirit. This would be weather or not there is a specific "devil-race' living within them or not. Recall in Gal 5 where Paul equated jealousy and other natural fruits of the flesh on par with even murder and a result of not walking with/in the Spirit.

But again, this is not what Matt 24 was saying, nor can it be twisted by english applicated words to mean such a thing.

I reject your interpretation and application of Romans 11 as highlighted in the blue above. This has been discussed before in other threads, And it is those interpretations which I believe originated from judaic source to perpetuate false 'religion'. Paul was quoting from Deut 32 end generation of old covenant Israel during the intercovenental period in chapter 10: vs 19. Israel would, could now (in 60 AD) look to the fulfillment of the Edenic covenant and the blessing promised when it was repeated to Abraham....in you (not Nimrod) will all nations of the earth be blessed.......being poured out (FULLNESS OF GOD)upon individuals in all nations in order that some individuals remaining in judaism would yet become jealous of the life of the Spirit and come to hear and believe in Christ even though they were enemies of the Gospel and perhaps were even yet persecuting and conspiring with Roman officials against those of the follows of the Way.

I look forward to the "River of Life" being made wider and deeper both internally/personally and externally/expansively in reality.

Likely this will be the last of this discussion from my perspective as it seems that were unable to apply inductive and objective study to the greek words in question without imposing the subjective interpretation beforehand.

Am thankful to LLOJ for bringing up this topic and for the "this generation" thread in the Eschatology section.

 

[squint]

These things highlighted above would be some of the difference between futurists who say Christs work was not adequate to atone for and repulse sin

Whoa, whoa, whoa there. I never said or implied THAT.

Happy to enlighten you on this matter. EVERY SIN including BLASPHEMY was already taken away AS IT PERTAINS TO MANKIND at the cross. This does not mean it has been taken OUT OF THE FLESH as a present reality. BLAMING man is off the table. But the reality IS that sin, evil and death are STILL PRESENT.

and the preterists who would be more likely to say that all facets of His work on earth "in the flesh" were accomplished during the lifespan of his incarnation.

And that appears to equate that everything God employed in Christ ENDED when He died in the flesh. Not credible.

The work is now in the inner man/person of all who the spirit draws to Himself and through his outward influence.

The Spirit then obviously remains 'working.' To describe an OMNIpresent God/Spirit to mere 'external' or 'outward' influences is lame.

"every spirit that does not confess that Christ has come (past tense) in the flesh is the foreign spirit.

Not an accurate quote there, and neither is the imposition of past tense. The usage in the KJV is not HAS come, but IS come.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God

The Spirit of Christ DOES still dwell in the flesh of believing mankind today. We who believe that would consider His Spirit quite Alive and Well therein.

A futurist implies that Christ must come again.... while a preterist may be more inclined to say that He never left, but that His very Person remained here as the very real Spirit as taught in John 14-16... etc.

I don't think God in Christ 'left' either. But in fact there DOES remain some work/wrath/judgment yet to come involving the ENTITY CLASS that I brought to the table earlier WHICH SAME you have 'pardon me' DODGED TWICE to address now. WHY is that? WHY is it that some people just can't provide OPEN RESPONSES?

So, this is MY THIRD question to you on this matter...AND I'm going to expand the question now because you are AVOIDING IT...

-IS there an entity class that is NOT MANKIND called the devil and his messengers?

-DO these entities (IF you do believe they exist) dwell in the mind/hearts of mankind?

And I'd really appreciate it if you'd get on it. IF you can't get to these facts, then I have an entirely DIFFERENT AVENUE of approach to this topic specially for YOU...

A futurist implies or even states that Christ did not fulfill establishing everlasting righteousness or make and end of sin as spoken in Dan 9:24 even though he came to old covenant national Israel while the nation and its ways were still viable (though already pre-determined to be faulty). The first possibly 10,000 or so believers/recievers were those from national Israel in Judea and Jerusalem. But a futurist applies it to a yet future national or PHarisaic Israel as you stated above thus rejecting the finished work of God during his incarnation and the individual nature of the New, everlasting covenant as stated in Jeremiah 31:27(i think).

And again, WHOA, WHOA, WHOA...I do not deny Gods Working in Christ for ANY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL PERSON OF ISRAEL WHO HAS EVER LIVED or WILL EVER LIVE.

Scripture is abundantly clear on this matter...ALL OF ISRAEL shall be saved, even those who were (PAST TENSE) enemies of the Gospel according to Paul in Romans 11:26-32. I correlate the conveyance of 'this mystery' as Paul described it directly to the vision of Ezekiel's valley of dry bones resurrection wherein ALL OF ISRAEL shall LIVE AGAIN in NEW BODIES, just like WE WILL. In Bodies Incorruptible that are FREE of the presence of indwelling sin and EVIL present.

Yes, in some areas we do not share similar views or perspectives or even it would seem spirits. But any change and transformation to reconcile these would likely be through individual study and revelation.....

They are interesting topics. I can't think of any other document that could keep my rapt attention for nearly some 3 decades now. I do subject everything I know and have learned to continual sharing and peer scrutiny.

In reference to a 'generation' of devil men continuing till the end of the "world". This is not what the Jewish disciples asked about nor what Christ taught in Matt 24. That is not what the word Genea nor AEON mean no matter what the English translation allows us to contemplate.

Well, that very much HINGES on the B I G B O L D questions I left for you above. Just your inclusion of the term 'men' with devils has already alerted me to what may be A FATAL FLAW in your 'system' of dissections.

We must attempt to decipher the original intent of the speaker, and the writer as the words were written in their original languages.

I am not a fan of painting Gods Eternal Words with the nearly unprovable subjectivity of then present historical conditions (OR using 'context' to ELIMINATE scriptures statements.) That is just a ridiculous approach that is as diverse as the writers of history (the victors write mans history, meaning much of it is simply NOT TRUTHFUL.)

Associated concepts with what you present by your 'generation of devils' concepts can be gleaned from other areas in scriptures, in the letters of the apostles and even from the Rev 21/22 area, and I'm not denying that 'devils' cannot and do inspire men...

Well, we can examine that closer when you put your views of devils on the table. Til then it's still 'iffy' as to how we might match up on that subject.

I would think that if you look behind the phallic tower religions, and their extensions, the evidence of continued seed of babylonian counterfeit religions still exist along with attempst to rule and controll the world and enslave it's people. The pharisaics would be part of this and possibly the originators, but not exlusive.

HA! Now that is really an astute observation there! Kudos!

Persons of the "world' or those who seek justification by the law or self-approval by keeping a code of law rather than a are internally super-naturally at odds against the internal peace of the persons of the spirit. This would be weather or not there is a specific "devil-race' living within them or not. Recall in Gal 5 where Paul equated jealousy and other natural fruits of the flesh on par with even murder and a result of not walking with/in the Spirit.

Well, Paul told us in Romans 13 that the O.T. commands and ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT was to the extent that we LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS AS OURSELVES. On 'that basis' of understanding I will find zero justifications for eliminations of ANY COMMANDMENT including the O.T. Law of Moses. But the end result of determination MUST LAND on what Paul stated (love of neighbors) OR the view of same will be FALSE, as well as all attempts to 'eliminate same.'

But again, this is not what Matt 24 was saying, nor can it be twisted by english applicated words to mean such a thing.

I reject your interpretation and application of Romans 11 as highlighted in the blue above. This has been discussed before in other threads, And it is those interpretations which I believe originated from the 'other' source to perpetuate false 'religion'. Paul was quoting from Deut 32 end generation of old covenant Israel during the intercovenental period in chapter 10: vs 19. Israel would, could now (in 60 AD) look to the fulfillment (FULLNESS OF GOD) of the Adamic covenant of everlasting life and the blessing promised when it was repeated to Abraham....in you (not Nimrod) will all nations of the earth be blessed.......being poured out upon individuals in all nations in order that some individuals remaining in judaism would yet become jealous of the life of the Spirit and come to hear and believe in Christ even though they were enemies of the Gospel and perhaps were even yet persecuting and conspiring with Roman officials against those of the follows of the Way.

And in that view you have 'future tensed' Paul's statement of ALL OF ISRAEL. I do believe ALL OF ISRAEL means exactly that...ALL OF ISRAEL..past, then present at the time Paul penned those words AND FUTURE TENSE...

ALL of them SAVED, even if they 'were' made enemies of the Gospel by the placement of the spirit of stupor upon them BY GOD.

Likely this will be the last of this discussion from my perspective as it seems that were unable to apply inductive and objective study to the greek words in question without imposing the subjective interpretation beforehand.

You are welcome to bow out before grilling any way you please. The observation that there IS A GENERATION OF DEVILS however cannot be avoided or overlooked by ANY CREDIBLE OBSERVER.

enjoy!

squint

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

so far we have 25 votes.

I hope we can get at least 25 more before we start really debating on this. Thanks to all that have taken the time to both vote and respond

 

[dayhiker]

I think wars and rumors of wars, and kingdoms rising against kingdoms.

While there has been famines, I don't think the famine(s) refered to in Mt.24 has been fulfilled.

 

[Notrash]

I think wars and rumors of wars, and kingdoms rising against kingdoms.

While there has been famines, I don't think the famine(s) refered to in Mt.24 has been fulfilled.

Hi Dayhiker, welcome to the discussion.

If the topic of the questions that the disciples asked was when he would come to end the old covenant why wouldn't the famines mentioned in Mt 24 be fulfilled?

FAMINES, PESTILENCES, EARTHQUAKES
Matthew. "And there shall be famines and pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places, all these are the beginning of sorrows (24:7,8).
Mark: "And there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles. These are the beginning of sorrows" (13:8).
Luke: "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines and pestilences, and fearful sights" (21:11).
The Bible records that there was famine "throughout all the world...in the days of Claudius Caesar (Acts 11:28). Judea was especially hard hit by famine. "The disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea" (verse 29). Paul's instructions concerning this "collection [of fruit] for the saints" is recorded in First Corinthians 16:1-5; Rom. 15:25-28.
Historians such as Suetonius and others mention famine during those years. Tacitus speaks of a "failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon." Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Rome, Judea, and Greece. Yes, there were famines in those years before the fall of Jerusalem.
Along with famines, Jesus mentioned pestilence; that is, plagues, the spread of disease, epidemics. Famine and pestilence, of course, go hand in hand. When people do not have proper food or insufficient food, pestilence results. Suetonius wrote of "pestilence" at Rome in the days of Nero which was so severe that "within the space of one autumn there died no less than 30,000 persons." Josephus records that pestilences raged in Babylonia in A. D. 40. Tacitus tells of pestilences in Italy in A. D. 65. Yes, there were pestilences in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem.
During this period, Jesus said there would also be earthquakes in many places. Tacitus mentions earthquakes at Rome. He wrote that "Frequent earthquakes occurred, by which many houses were thrown down" and that "twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake."
Seneca, writing in the year 58 A. D., said: "How often have cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one fatal shock! how many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! how many in Macedonia! how often has Cyprus been wasted by this calamity ! how often has Paphos become a ruin! News has often been brought us of the demolition of whole cities at once." He mentions the earthquake at Campania during the reign of Nero. In 60 A.D., Hierapous, Colosse, and Laodicea were overthrown—Laodicea being so self-sufficient that it recovered without the Imperial aid furnished other cities. In 63 A.D,, the city of Pompeii was greatly damaged by earthquake. There were earthquakes in Crete, Apamea, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, and Judea. Earthquake

As for wars and rumors of wars, kingdom against kingdom ..........(I think this may have been a way to phrase the internal civil wars that occurred in Rome in 66 AD...nation against itself, kingdom against itself.....)

WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS
Matthew: "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom" (24:6,7).
Mark: "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled; for such things must needs be, but the end is not yet, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (13:7, 8).
Luke: "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified; for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by [immediately]. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (21:9,10).
We are told that when Jesus gave this prophecy, the Roman Empire was experiencing a general peace within its borders. (Called the Pax Romana or Pax Augusta). Jesus explained to his disciples that they would be hearing of wars, rumors of wars, and commotions. And did they? Yes! Within a short time the Empire was filled with strife, insurrection, and wars.
Before the fall of Jerusalem, four Emperors came to violent deaths within the space of 18 months. According to the historian Suetonius (who lived during the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second), Nero "drove a dagger into his throat.'' Galba was run down by horsemen. A soldier cut off his head and "thrusting his thumb into the mouth," carried the horrid trophy about. Otho "stabbed himself" in the breast. Vitellius was killed by slow torture and then "dragged by a hook into the Tiber." We can understand that such fate falling on the Emperors would naturally spread distress and insecurity through the Empire.
In the Annals of Tacitus, a Roman who wrote a history which covers the period prior to 70 A. D., we find such expressions as these: "Disturbances in Germany," "commotions in Africa," "commotions in Thrace," "insurrections in Gaul," "intrigues among the Parthians," "the war in Britain," "war in Armenia."
Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor's armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.
But though there would be wars, rumours of wars, and commotions, Jesus told his disciples: "See that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet." The word "end" that is used here is not the same Greek word as in the expression "end of the world." (See footnote). As Barnes says, the end here referred to is "the end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of Jerusalem."
Wars, rumors of wars, and commotions were of a general nature. These things were not signs of the end; to the contrary, they were given to show that the end was NOT yet! None of these things would be the sign which would cause the disciples to flee into the mountains.

Matthew 24--Future or Fulfilled?

 

[Notrash]

Happy to enlighten you on this matter. EVERY SIN including BLASPHEMY was already taken away AS IT PERTAINS TO MANKIND at the cross. This does not mean it has been taken OUT OF THE FLESH as a present reality. BLAMING man is off the table. But the reality IS that sin, evil and death are STILL PRESENT.

Romans 7,8 and Gal 5 describe some helps about removing the harmful behavior and remnants from the flesh.

Paul also mentioned...."Where o death is thy sting"?

Not an accurate quote there, and neither is the imposition of past tense. The usage in the KJV is not HAS come, but IS come.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God

The Spirit of Christ DOES still dwell in the flesh of believing mankind today. We who believe that would consider His Spirit quite Alive and Well therein.

Thanks for the correction. The greek though is even stronger than english past tense.
ἔρχομαι
Tense: Second Perfect
Voice: Active
Mood: Participle
* The Second Perfect Active Participle verb form occurs 43 times in the New Testament.

Definition of "Second Perfect"
The second perfect is identical in meaning to that of the normal or "first" perfect tense, and has no additional effect on English translation. The classification merely represents a spelling variation in Greek.
See "Perfect"
The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

I think the emphasized phrase is "in the flesh". I think John is saying that Christ fulfilled his work in his incarnation (in the flesh), not saying that His Spiritual presence has already come and gone.
Paul says something associated with this in Rom 10.
"Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[b]" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word (JESUS and his Spirit) is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:

I don't think God in Christ 'left' either. But in fact there DOES remain some work/wrath/judgment yet to come involving the ENTITY CLASS that I brought to the table earlier WHICH SAME you have 'pardon me' DODGED TWICE to address now. WHY is that? WHY is it that some people just can't provide OPEN RESPONSES?

So, this is MY THIRD question to you on this matter...AND I'm going to expand the question now because you are AVOIDING IT...

-IS there an entity class that is NOT MANKIND called the devil and his messengers?

-DO these entities (IF you do believe they exist) dwell in the mind/hearts of mankind?

These questions are irrelevant to Matt 24 because it isnt' the entity class that is referred to in Matt 24. Matt 24 uses the word Genea, not Gennema. You have continually failed to see the difference between these words which is why I continue to bring them up to you. Since this thread is about Matt 24, the "gennema" and fruit of those inspired by lies doesn't enter into it: .
We cannot allow the meanings and usage of the greek words Genea and Genemma to interchange with each other even if they have a common english word translation ! ! !

And again, WHOA, WHOA, WHOA...I do not deny Gods Working in Christ for ANY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL PERSON OF ISRAEL WHO HAS EVER LIVED or WILL EVER LIVE.

Scripture is abundantly clear on this matter...ALL OF ISRAEL shall be saved, even those who were (PAST TENSE) enemies of the Gospel according to Paul in Romans 11:26-32. I correlate the conveyance of 'this mystery' as Paul described it directly to the vision of Ezekiel's valley of dry bones resurrection wherein ALL OF ISRAEL shall LIVE AGAIN in NEW BODIES, just like WE WILL. In Bodies Incorruptible that are FREE of the presence of indwelling sin and EVIL present.

Again, we are in disagreement on this idea based on who 'all Israel' had been defined at this point in time. "All Israel" is not genetic or old covenant national Israel. It is the 'seed' of those of like kind as the individual re-named "israel" who had a transformed life.
The phrase used in Rom 11 is "All Israel"; not "all OF Israel"; and the text states the opposite of what you say...
For they [are] not "all Israel", which are "of Israel": Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God.
.. but according to whom God has mercy.... EVEN US OF THE GENTILES (NATIONS) as down in vs 24-26.

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He says also in Hosea: (concerning the believers of the nations)

“ I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.
26 “ And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,

‘ You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.

National old covenant "Israel" was first called a people of God (Duet 27:9)on the east side of the Jordan just before crossing it and after being given and charged with the summarized old covenant including the prophecies concerning its failure, judgment, return and final end. (Deut 11-32). By Moses saying that 'this day' thou art become a people of God he was excluding other nations and thus saying that other nations were not 'my people'. It is there, east of the Jordan and outside of the 'old covenant' that believers in the nations (including the remnant of believing jews) would 'gather' physically and in Spirit in the kingdom of God established in power as the judgment/wrath poured out again on 'Babylon'... Jerusalem; the purveyor of counterfeits. It was there in Pella that they and all victorious believers were called 'sons of the living God'... i.e....all Israel.

And in that view you have 'future tensed' Paul's statement of ALL OF ISRAEL. I do believe ALL OF ISRAEL means exactly that...ALL OF ISRAEL..past, then present at the time Paul penned those words AND FUTURE TENSE...

ALL of them SAVED, even if they 'were' made enemies of the Gospel by the placement of the spirit of stupor upon them BY GOD.

At the time Paul wrote Romans, (55-60 AD) the deliverance and salvation from Persecution and extermination was yet future. As mentioned above, 'all Israel' was defined in 9:6 through being summed up as whom God would have mercy upon .... even 'us' of the gentiles' being included in 'all Israel' as the 'seed' of those like the individual Israel..... meaning sons of God through faith.. (John 1:12)

Paul felt that there were 'elect' of yet disbelieving national Israel in 60 AD who were then yet 'enemies of the gospel' and participating in persecuting the Christians (even as Paul once did). Some of these "elect" would come to faith and be pricked unto belief through being made 'jealous' of the FULLNESS of God (NOT FULL NUMBER) made manifest in people of all nations (gentiles) and not only the Jews. This "jealousy" that was mentioned in 10:19 would cause some of them to understand in faith and become one of the "All Israel" who would be saved from persecution and extinction by the roman armies cleansing and repression of judaism.

Note the then present tense.... may now (in 60 AD)in the following verses of 29-32...receive mercy and believe due to the gospel going out to and being received in all nations in order to make the remaining elect of national Israel 'jealous' before the salvation and deliverance of the believers.

Well, Paul told us in Romans 13 that the O.T. commands and ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT was to the extent that we LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS AS OURSELVES. On 'that basis' of understanding I will find zero justifications for eliminations of ANY COMMANDMENT including the O.T. Law of Moses. But the end result of determination MUST LAND on what Paul stated (love of neighbors) OR the view of same will be FALSE, as well as all attempts to 'eliminate same.'

It is through the circumcised and changed heart of having received the 'new' covenant of everlasting life and having no condemnation of the law able to be brought against us that we are then free to truly love our neighbor as ourselves from the heart. The old covenant perspective under the law was still a negative commandment and a ministry of condemnation... (2 Cor 3) The new covenant perspective is able to be fulfilled genuinely through the transformed heart.

You are welcome to bow out before grilling any way you please. The observation that there IS A GENERATION OF DEVILS however cannot be avoided or overlooked by ANY CREDIBLE OBSERVER.

Again, the discussion is on Matt 24 which uses the greek word Genea, meaning those of a contempory time period, not the english word generation. Thus the focus is on Genea and Matt 24, not weather or not a manifestation of devil/men exists.

I think the questions about Gennema belongs on a different thread... or perhaps on Coast to Coast Am with Mark Eastman or Chuck Missler. They both entertain and preach these ideas and disregard the past fulfillment's of the end of the old covenant in that genea.

 

[Notrash]

Deleted

 

[KCDAD]

I know, LLoJ, you know what I think. None of this in Chapter 24 is to be looked at predicting future events. Prophesy is a warning... like thunder before a storm. Thunder often predicts a storm coming, but sometimes it is just thunder... The author here is simply reflecting on the teachings of Jesus in light of the destruction of the temple and invasion of Israel, and how these events impact being a follower of The Way.
The temple has already been destroyed when this was written, Rome had already sacked Jerusalem. It is a warning against Paul and other teachers preaching a different Gospel than James and Peter, it is a warning against false teachers... which the early church refused to heed.

 

[squint]

Again, the discussion is on Matt 24 which uses the greek word Genea, meaning those of a contempory time period, not the english word generation. Thus the focus is on Genea and Matt 24, not weather or not a manifestation of devil/men exists.

A couple things. First you have totally dodged repeated questions about the reality of devils, their 'time' of existence, and whether or not scripture addresses THEM and IF they are 'with' 'within' mankind. ALL of those obvious facts you have totally passed up. All I say to all of that is WHY? Have you fallen in love so deeply with your own mind that you can't see any other way?

Then you deflect the entirety of the questions falsely presenting them to revolve around A SINGLE FOCUS WORD of your own limited structure...a really pathetic attempt to defray any other view than your own narrow limited intentionally purposeful DENIAL because it doesn't suit your views that you so deeply love and defend. If you allow a single other FACT to impose therein, you SHUT DOWN...

After all that you promise NO FURTHER responses...then come back to replay the same drama of tape loop repititions to suit your constuct.

I have never learned anything by becoming locked into my own limited views. But many land exactly in that place in these matters, justifying their own respective constructions come life or limb. I see this practice in many...they are locked away on their own little islands of theology of their own making...preciously protecting their pets. Honesty and sharing are simply NOT in their equations.

enjoy!

squint

 

[thecountrydoc]

KCDAD Said:

"I know, LLoJ, you know what I think. None of this in Chapter 24 is to be looked at predicting future events. Prophesy is a warning... like thunder before a storm. Thunder often predicts a storm coming, but sometimes it is just thunder... The author here is simply reflecting on the teachings of Jesus in light of the destruction of the temple and invasion of Israel, and how these events impact being a follower of The Way."

The temple has already been destroyed when this was written, Rome had already sacked Jerusalem. It is a warning against Paul and other teachers preaching a different Gospel than James and Peter, it is a warning against false teachers... which the early church refused to heed."

My friend, first, please notice the portion of your above post that I have highlighted.

In all but the 1st and 3rd verses of Matt. 24, the author is Jesus. In the balance of the 51 verses He, Jesus, is making direct statements to answer the questions the diciples had ask of Him in the 3rd verse.

As for when Matt. 24 was written, it really makes no difference when it was written because the writer, in this case Matthew, is simply quoteing Jesus Christ Himself. (By the way, the book of Matthew was written before the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.) As a person who had first hand knowledge of what Jesus had said, as well as who Jesus was, do you really think Matthew would have made any change in the context of Christ's own Words? Of course not!

It must also be noted that 24th chapter of Matthew is a dual prophecy. It does indeed foretell the distruction of the temple in 70 AD, as history has already confirmed, but it also is a foretelling of the end of the world as requested by the diciples in verse 3.

". . . Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world?"

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hello Notrash and Squint,

We all know both of you fellows are enjoying your "discussion," but, it has become exactly that, "your discussion." It is way off topic for this thread.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hello once again to all who have posted to, or read this thread.

I have been giving a great of thought to what has been posted in this thread up to this point and it strikes me that far too many of those who have posted here are actualling fulfilling prophecy by what they have posted. Let me explain.

Everyone is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we can all agree that there are several warnings given to us about these end times that should cause us to stop and think very seriously. These prophecies are very profound, both in what they say, as well as to whom they are directed. The first one that should bring all of us up short is found in Matt: 24:24.

"For there shall arise false Christ, and false porophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

With these few words Christ Himself warns us that every single one of us could be decieved. Unfortunately most Christians seem to believe that they have such a vast amount, or at least an adequate amount, of knowledge about the Scriptures that they will readly see such deceptions. What seems to be forgotten by most is just how good Satan is at deception. We are being decieved when we fail to percieve the importance of these prophecies by getting us off track when we study and getting us to be preoccupied with minor points. In the case of this thread he has caused the ignoring of prophecy by not understanding what has been fulfilled and what is yet to come. If Satan can get us to be blinded to the signs of Christ return for any reason, or fail to understand what God has given us in His Word to help us understand these end time prophecies clearly, we will not be ready for His return. What a tragedy that would be.

May God put His loving arms around each of you, His Holy Angels protect you, and the Holy Spirit guide and comfort you as we study God's Word and travel salvation's highway to our heavenly home.

Respectfully, Your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[Notrash]

A couple things. First you have totally dodged repeated questions about the reality of devils, their 'time' of existence, and whether or not scripture addresses THEM and IF they are 'with' 'within' mankind. ALL of those obvious facts you have totally passed up. All I say to all of that is WHY? Have you fallen in love so deeply with your own mind that you can't see any other way?

Then you deflect the entirety of the questions falsely presenting them to revolve around A SINGLE FOCUS WORD of your own limited structure...a really pathetic attempt to defray any other view than your own narrow limited intentionally purposeful DENIAL because it doesn't suit your views that you so deeply love and defend. If you allow a single other FACT to impose therein, you SHUT DOWN...

After all that you promise NO FURTHER responses...then come back to replay the same drama of tape loop repititions to suit your constuct.

I have never learned anything by becoming locked into my own limited views. But many land exactly in that place in these matters, justifying their own respective constructions come life or limb. I see this practice in many...they are locked away on their own little islands of theology of their own making...preciously protecting their pets. Honesty and sharing are simply NOT in their equations.

enjoy!

squint

Well again, since the discussion is on Matt 24, we should focus on the words there and the difference of the greek words which need defined. Genea is the word offered, not Gennema. You will find various commentators to support your thoughts that Genea can mean a Genos and a Gennema, but the word Genea in the New testament always has the meaning of a contemporary group of people and their lifespan and experiences. Gennema seems to mean the end fruit or fruit/offspring of a like kind. Similarly, Genos, is translated generation in 1 Pet 2:9 and that word would fit your interpretation, but "Genea" does not.

Thus, in talking about the Genea in Matt 24, your concept of a generation of devils cannot fit into the linguistics of the greek words. Genea does not equal Gennema or vice versa. This isn't being stubborn or narrow minded but seeks the facts of the definitions of the greek words and their original intent. The additional fact that all the things mentioned can be shown to be historically fulfilled in the first century in their original (sometimes intended literary meaning) intentions adds support and proves the time span meaning of the word Genea.

I actually held some of your perspectives generally speaking before really breaking down what Jesus was saying and what Mathew and the other disciples were recording.

Perhaps it is you who might stand to learn somethings if you open your heart and mind.

The reason to limit involvment is that it has become a argument rather than objectively looking at the original words and the original intent and the end of the old covenant and full establishment of the everlasting. Rather than considering that these events were actually fulfilled in that first century, you deny even that consideration and objective analysis. At least I considered your 'generation' of devils, but found it unsupported in the words of the text which limits all these things to occur EMPHATICALLY within the lifespan of some of those people hearing those words. Thus as mentioned before, the focus of the olivet has nothing to do with the 'end of the world' but with the end of the old covenant AGE as would be correctly translasted.

I'd be happy to continue if we could get off the obvious errror of insisting that Matt 24 was referring to a GENNEMA of devils when it was referrring to the GENEA of those people in that lifespan. The definition of the difference of those two words INSIST and DEMAND that your perspective is an erroneous interpretation of this text.

So IF you'll objectively consider the differences of these and other words, we could continue.......

And yes, your correct, I am in Love with the grace, love, Logic, Law and truth of the firmly established and empowered Covenant of Mercy that the fulfillment of these prophecies during that end generation further confirmed and empowered, just as prophecied in Daniel 7.

Enjoy.

 

[Notrash]

Hello Notrash and Squint,

We all know both of you fellows are enjoying your "discussion," but, it has become exactly that, "your discussion." It is way off topic for this thread.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

On the contrary, the discussion of the word Genea and it's meaning in Matt 24 is of the utmost importance and very directly ON topic for this thread.

One of the difficulties of internet discussions is that often they are used to broadcast ones own perspectives rather than to get to the root of differences in order to come to the unity of the faith. When what seems to be irrefutable points of disagreement are exposed, they are sometimes swept under the rug.
So also was the manner in which you did not address the responses to you previous post concerning some of your statements. http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923-10/#post52875424

Jesus did in fact cause the destruction of the temple and IN SPIRIT DID COME through the armies of the Romans as prophesied in Duet 32.

and the question as to Which part of the gospel being preached to 'all nations" was not explicitly confirmed to be be fulfilled by the apostles themselves prior to 70 AD and before the 'end' of the old covenant nation age.....??

This was not responded to.

As to your dual fulfillment concept. I think that in the old testament, their were dual fulfillment within prophecies about the old covenant nation. The second part of the dual fulfillment pertained to something in the new everlasting covenant.
But with the establishment of the new covenant being promised as the last and eternal age, I don't feel there is any support to the dual fulfillment theory.
The picture from Ishmael and Isaac,(Gal 4:21ff); The conditional covenant of the flesh was in service to the everlasting covenant of promise of the Spirit. Essau and Jacob; the elder shall serve the younger, that is the old covenant was in service to the new covenant. The everlasting "new" as compared to 'old' covenant is the everlasting covenant of Mercy hidden within the old covenant. Moses struck the rock twice signifying that he placed faith in the second (but forever) covenant of Mercy and thus was buried outside of the old conditional covenant land east of the Jordan. When moses gave the law, it was delivered with a veil over his face. 2 Cor 3 and parts of Hebrews describes the reason for the veil.

In the Matt 24 case, the dual fulfillment theory seems to rely on an inaccurate play on the words "world" and "generation" as a end of world rather than end of old covenant "age" and it's nation. Generation is the word genea which indicates the lifespan of those persons hearing the spoken words. Your dual fulfillment concept seems to confuse the specific greek word concepts with more general English word concepts. This, IMO would be an abomination to accuracy of the original intent and to the hermenutic laws used for interpretation.

I dont' think we can say that God would foreknow the english word translations and our erroneous applications of the original intent and thus he MUST or might appease our erroneous application and interpretation. That again would be an abomination to the original intent and the everlasting laws established through those happenings and the focus of the judgment on and closure of the old covenant.

Thus again, I think were locked into first and foremost considering weather or not the word GENEA limits the interpretation of 'all those things' to events that occurred within the lifespan of those people who heard the words.

I think it is you who are perhaps out of context with the intent of the thread by offering futuristic theories and applications without first establishing, defending and determining if the language and words of the text can allow for a yet future application.

Until you would pick up the discussion and thoughfully consider and interact with the perspectives offered to you; its pointless to consider continued individual interaction and discussion.

 

[squint]

On the contrary, the discussion of the word Genea and it's meaning in Matt 24 is of the utmost importance and very directly ON topic for this thread.

And that is merely your personal imposition on narrowing down a very large fact to a single word. Ridiculous methodology.

Matt. 24 is very much about WRATH imposed by God. We also know WHO wrath is for...the DEVIL and his messengers. So taking an entire 'theme' of WRATH and stating that ANY ACTION of wrath is not somehow, someway connected to the parties for whom WRATH is intended is a very shortsighted view. We have huge amounts of scripture in the Gospels that show THE DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS to be 'with'/'within' the people of Israel and mankind in general in the N.T.

So to read ANY WORD of God without those parties in mind is again just ridiculous methodology. Such methodology is entirely VOID of a very LARGE FACT...an entire ENTITY CLASS that is not mankind.

And why the simplicity of acknowledging this FACT is hard for you to grasp is also quite ridiculous.

One of the difficulties of internet discussions is that often they are used to broadcast ones own perspectives

I don't need 'an individual perspective' to read and acknowledge A VERY LARGE FACT...so again you spin such absurd nonsense.

IF a fact is there to be employed in these matters that is MISSING it is not a 'personal perspective' to bring the FACTS to the table of discussions. Your motives for re-spin to AVOID FACTS however are an entirely different matter. I call that a disingenous disposition.

rather than to get to the root of differences in order to come to the unity of the faith.

We don't 'eliminate' scriptural facts on the basis of 'faith' either. Where do you get this type of nonsense from?

When what seems to be irrefutable points of disagreement are exposed, they are sometimes swept under the rug.

What is being, yes, ridiculed is your trying to dead end a fact on a ridiculous funneling down process of your own making to employ your theological fantasy that is DEVOID of fact.

You are certainly welcome to uphold positions apart from facts. I am welcome to observe the BLACK VOID in your fantasies.

Njoy!

squint

 

[squint]

Hello Notrash and Squint,

We all know both of you fellows are enjoying your "discussion," but, it has become exactly that, "your discussion." It is way off topic for this thread.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

Oh please Doc. IF you think the devil and his messengers are not at least partly in focus on ANY scripture set, you are seriously mistaken and therefore your 'off discussion' CHARGE is FALSE...

IF you'd care to employ this fact into your understandings of Matt. 24, please join in.

A VERY LARGE theme in Matthew 24 starts by DEPICTING DECEPTION...

Do you NOT believe that the DEVIL (and his messengers) is NOT INVOLVED in DECEPTION?

Please...

Some of you guys are just too much...almost funny really.

I might observe that it is a working of that VERY DECEPTION that does not allow EITHER of you to bring that fact to the TABLE for viewing...???

enjoy!

squint

 

[Notrash]

And that is merely your personal imposition on narrowing down a very large fact to a single word. Ridiculous methodology.

Matt. 24 is very much about WRATH imposed by God. We also know WHO wrath is for...the DEVIL and his messengers. So taking an entire 'theme' of WRATH and stating that ANY ACTION of wrath is not somehow, someway connected to the parties for whom WRATH is intended is a very shortsighted view. We have huge amounts of scripture in the Gospels that show THE DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS to be 'with'/'within' the people of Israel and mankind in general in the N.T.

squint

Your statements are from your misdefinition and misapplication of the words of the text.

And again, since we are primarily dealing with Matt 24 and the changeover of the covenant age; In Matt 24 the word used for generation is not referring to the Genos or Gennema of Vipers weather or not that genos continues through to today.

I'm not at all saying that there are not a genos of people inspired by their jealousy of God and his creation....or self-will.... or being misled by lies or whatever... neither am I saying that there is a specific group of devils living inside men. (again, Mark Eastman and Chuck Missler hold those concepts)

Neither am I saying that their may not be a repeated principle of wrath poured out on babylonic counterfeit religions at a future time; or rather that perhaps 'wrath' is simply a confusion and unfruitfulness/disharmony of life in those individuals and association of groups who are not given the spirit of life and truth.

What I am saying (again) is that Matt 24 doesn't address that issue but rather talks about things that were to occur in the very lifespan (GENEA)of people to whom he was speaking and the evidence is that all those things including the end of the age (not World) and the end of the old covenant Jewish nation did occur to the very GENEA (lifespan)they were spoken to.

What I'm saying (again) is that Matt 24 does not address that issue and Jesus and the disciples would have been careful to used a Greek words that would directly imply or state (to their minds) the continuation of a genos or gennema until the end of creation rather than state that the GENEA (lifespan) he was speaking to would see the destruction of the temple and the end of the (old covenant) AION..age.

Note what Paul says in Eph 3:21
Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages,( genea; generations; past and present) world (age:everlasting covenant of eternal life age)without end. Amen.

Your perspective brings future wrath on a certain group of non-humanoids of some sort if I'm reading you right...

God's pespective already brought wrath (numerous times over) on religious systems that oppress the Spirit of Life inheirited through justification through faith.

In the case of the final judgment poured out on Jerusalem, it was on a religious system that He himself established as a shadow of the Eternal but which through usage of men was destined and designed to fail and became a counterfeit of lies through unbelief just as Nimrod's Babylon.
Thus through the confirmation of the shadow old covenant, the genuineness of the reality of the Christ's incarnation, deity and sacrifice is proven opposite of the counterfeit claims of Nimrod and babylonian cult religions and those religions permeated or influenced by them...(judaism, catholicism including some of protestantism..etc).

It was the final and emphatic judgment on conditional, performance based covenant and perspective vs favor of the unconditional, faith based approval won for us By Christ and the kingdom won in part by the disciples tial by fire.

Dan 7:22)
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. (Jesus and His laws of heaven and creation)

Your attempt to make Matt 24 apply to a future wrath on a generation (genos) of devils changes the very words of the greek text and to put it gently stands condemned for that very attempt.

The fulfillment of Matt 24 can by definition of the words contained within; only directly and physically apply to the lifespan of the people who heard the words. The ramifications and effects of the eternal laws confirmed at the cross through the desolation and enforced from heaven carry weight throughout all eternity past and future.

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom,

I think the point that your missing is that the old covenant was the conditional/national covenent given to national Israel. It is the end of that covenant, the nation and the 'age' which had become as Babylon that is in focus in Matt 24. To apply Matt 24 to the future implies that the conditional performance based corporal old covenant is still in effect since the Olivet didn't address the time of it's end.

If you wish to discuss the difference of Genos, Genea, Gennema etc... or Aeon vs Kosmos, so that we can consider the truth vs error of where we differ we can continue.

 

[JediMobius]

Play nice folks.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Play nice folks.

Wonder how this thread would look if it would have been kept on the GT board where I first posted it.