How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

[squint]

So where in Revelation does it show the End of the Age Jesus is talking about to the Jews?

Matthew 24:3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying "tell us, when? shall these be and what? the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age/aiwnoV <165>"

Matthew 28:20 "Teaching them to be keeping all as much as I direct to ye.
And behold!, I with ye am all the days, till the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age/aiwnoV <165>. Amen"

Christian Forums - View Poll Results
Question time. Jesus returns before or after 1000yrs

LLOJ, the stretch of Matt. 23-25 is one of the most interesting in the entire text. Jesus begins by addressing the PHARISEES in a very harsh manner in 23....He then elaborates on these things in 24, and CULMINATES in 25 wherein you will find the SEPARATION of the SHEEP from the GOATS.

Now you KNOW my view on these matters. DEVILS will be SEPARATED from mankind on a MASS SCALE and THEY will be sent to the FLAMES of THE LAKE OF FIRE.

And no, I am not looking at any MAN OF THE FLESH or any PHYSICALITY for this FINALE. I know how it's coming down from REVELATION...note where the VOICE OF THE USURPERS will no longer be heard:

IF you (someday maybe eventually SEE) that the TEMPLES of mankind are PRESENTLY DEFILED by DEVILS (mystery Babylon-the mystery of iniquity) you might see WHERE it transpires (in OUR BODIES)

Rev. 18:
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Mystery Babylon is presently working WITHIN all mankind. We have already been CALLED OUT to divide and depart FROM THAT WORKING...but one has to look within THEIR OWN TEMPLE to 'see' the usurpers and DEAL with the fact that THEY ARE PRESENTLY THERE and that is something ONLY GOD can show HIS CHILDREN. Here is another CALLING OUT of BABYLON:

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Any person that thinks that they are THE ONLY SINNER in their body and mind are presently IN DARKNESS. Any person who thinks that the UNbelieving are the ONLY PEOPLE to blame are presently IN DARKNESS. Any person that doesn't SEE and DIVIDE from their EVIL PRESENT and INDWELLING SIN is IN DARKNESS.

God has already called us ALL out and SHOWN US our enemies and WHO is going to meet the COMING DESTRUCTION...

But one will NEVER observe ANY of these things as AN EXTERNAL PHYSICAL EVENT:

Luke 17:20
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation

That is WHY it will be AS A THIEF to the powers of darkness...that is WHY the powers of DARKNESS request A PHYSICAL SIGN...etc etc etc.

Nope, they won't get ANY PHYSICAL SIGN...it will be LIGHTNING FAST...in the TWINKLING of an EYE...

He will make A FULL RETURN within...sin will be TAKEN AWAY and ALL SHALL KNOW HIM from the least to the greatest...

Take it to the BANK.

enjoy!

squint

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LLOJ, the stretch of Matt. 23-25 is one of the most interesting in the entire text. Jesus begins by addressing the PHARISEES in a very harsh manner in 23....He then elaborates on these things in 24, and CULMINATES in 25 wherein you will find the SEPARATION of the SHEEP from the GOATS.

Now you KNOW my view on these matters.
He will make A FULL RETURN within...sin will be TAKEN AWAY and ALL SHALL KNOW HIM from the least to the greatest...

Take it to the BANK.

enjoy!

squint

And again, where does the Jewish/Hebrew Book of Revelation show that "Full Return".

And which part of Matt 24 do you YOURSELF view as still yet Future? Another words, show me which verses of Matt 24 is still yet future.


That is what I am trying to ascertain from other Christians on this thread. Thanks.

 

[Bick]

Using strongs for definition of the greek words.





Maybe the different words for 'world' don't add up to anything significant, but why were they used?


The evil servant who thinks he knows when Christ will come is interesting though. Jesus says in vs 50 "The lord of thatservant shall comein a daywhen he lookethnot for him, andin an hourthat he isnot aware of". Now, if this day has come and past, what does it mean for the rest of us? Can we be safe in the hope that we don't have to look forward to Christ return? Can we be safe in knowing we are like the 5 wise virgins in the following chapter and not like the 5 foolish ones?

Matt 25: 13"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh"

MY COMMENTS: In My Opinion, an accurate version of the Bible would use "world" only when "kosmos" is in the Greek.

And there are such versions: Young's Literal, Rotherham's, and the Concordant Literal New Testament.

 

[Notrash]

It was you who imposed falsely that the generation of vipers could not POSSIBLY be the 'generation' spoken of in Matt. 24. I am not trying to equate the terms, only the POSSIBILITY that the 'generation of VIPERS' is linked to Matt. 24 and many other singular generation texts and related texts. The singular term study of 'generation' throughout the text will yield up much information in the direction I've written of.
squint

I've read the rest of your post with interest and I understand what your saying about the singular generation texts. And I apreciate the other points you've made about many possible 'parousia's' of the lord.

We are not studying the KJV interpretation of the word 'generation'. We are seeking to study the difference of application of the greek words Genea, Gennema, Genos (since you've introduced it) and even genesis or ethnos.

Was their 14 generations of devils between Abraham and David, from David to the carrying away to Babylon and 14 generations of devils from the carrying away in babylon to Christ? No, it's obviously not what he was talking about.

Althought the above is the plural version, it is the plural of Genea meaning those living in a contempory lifespan, not Gennmmas which would mean those of a common origin. A plural is most often more than one of the singular version. Thus Genea is the singular of Genea(s). I think we do a great offense to the greek language and the english application if/when we jump from Genea (people living in a common age) to Gennema (a common generation of a kind of people) in Matt 24 and in all the singular applications of Genea.

Just as in the discussion of Aeon and Kosmos above where Aeon is limited by a time and space wheras Kosmos is only referring to space, Genea seems limited by a lifespan of time whereas Gennema seems applicable to those of a common spirit and ancestry without regards to time and generations.

Due to this difference of Genea and Gennema, one cannot replace the meaning of one with the other in the text of Matt 24. If as we 'preterist/idealists propose, 'all these things' occurred within that very next 40 yrs in agreement with the word GENEA, then with curisity we search out the fulfillments of 'all these things' within the first century to confirm that our understanding of Genea is correct and to obtain understanding of the changing of the age and the spiritual applications thereof (the idealism part). A full preterist has likely resolved how most if not all these things to have occured to those people in that geneartion who needed to know the signs to prepare to escapte judea and flee to east of the Jordan.

We (partial or full preterists) are not saying that perfect peace entered into every human being at the cross or through the establishment of the Edenic covenant... but it does dwell inside those who have recieved justification by faith and are willing to make that Spirit Lord; AND that kingdom of Peace WAS fully established and favored with Power as the Romans descended into Judea to release the followers of the Way from the judaic oppression of the law and both that Genea and Genemma of Vipers.

Your picturing the 'kingdom of God' as a yet future event; whereas this is exactly what the pharisees were accused of by Jesus. They shut up the personal lordship of Christ and the Holy spirt and pushed 'the kingdom' off into the future realm that they would attampt to rule over. In doing so, they promoted the perpetuation of the conditional old covenant ways destined to fail through thier oppression as noted in Duet 27 or 28. (And it shall come to pass that the law would come to bear on them and oppress them).. It were those ways which the Creator and lawmaker of life shut the door on emphatically in favor of (Dan 7:26) the covenant of mercy to all mankinds throuigh faith.

This is one of the important concepts that the full preterists position brings to the table of mens minds and spirits.

Seek in faith....

 

[Notrash]

Luke 17:20
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation

That is WHY it will be AS A THIEF to the powers of darkness...that is WHY the powers of DARKNESS request A PHYSICAL SIGN...etc etc etc.

Nope, they won't get ANY PHYSICAL SIGN...it will be LIGHTNING FAST...in the TWINKLING of an EYE...

He will make A FULL RETURN within...sin will be TAKEN AWAY and ALL SHALL KNOW HIM from the least to the greatest...

Take it to the BANK.

enjoy!

squint

This is where a preterst and perhaps a preterist/idealist who applies the physical happenings to spiritual laws would acknowlede that sin was taken away at the cross as the everlasting covenant of mercy was fully established. This is what was prophecied in Dan 9:24 where he established everlasting righteousness....a individual righteousness that is via faith in the Person and works of the Creator only...not according to do's and dont's of a law.

 

[Notrash]

MY COMMENTS: In My Opinion, an accurate version of the Bible would use "world" only when "kosmos" is in the Greek.

And there are such versions: Young's Literal, Rotherham's, and the Concordant Literal New Testament.

I think Richard C. Trench would agree with you. I think Darby, for all his faults also used age for aeon.

 

[squint]

I've read the rest of your post with interest and I understand what your saying about the singular generation texts. And I apreciate the other points you've made about many possible 'parousia's' of the lord.

We are not studying the KJV interpretation of the word 'generation'. We are seeking to study the difference of application of the greek words Genea, Gennema, Genos (since you've introduced it) and even genesis or ethnos.

Was their 14 generations of devils between Abraham and David, from David to the carrying away to Babylon and 14 generations of devils from the carrying away in babylon to Christ? No, it's obviously not what he was talking about.

That was quite a ways back in Matthew, but for point of interests there was again only ONE generation of devils that have been from the Garden forward with 'add ons' as part of that ONE family i.e. expansion through children who then REMAIN...

the generationS plural of mankind pass with their generational deaths... BUT there has been no passing away of ANY devil members that we know of YET...but that will come in the SECOND DEATH...in the Lake when their entire GENERATION is thereby tossed for eternity. (I think most believers understand this.)

Althought the above is the plural version, it is the plural of Genea meaning those living in a contempory lifespan, not Gennmmas. A plural is most often more than one of the singular version. Thus Genea is the singular of Genea(s). I think we do a great offense to the greek language and the english application if/when we jump from Genea (people living in a common age) to Gennema (a common generation of a kind of people) in Matt 24 and in all the singular applications of Genea. Just as in the discussion of Aeon and Kosmos above, Genea seems limited by a lifespan and time whereas Gennema seems applicable to those of a common spirit and ancestry without regards to time but with regards to their origen.

And you do see your ridgid views of these matters always focus immediately and instantly upon only people. I just think that is a 'locked and loaded' mindset when there ARE other avenues of credible explanations such as put forth.

FOR EXAMPLE I believe that when Jesus was addressing 'children of the devil' when speaking to the Pharisees He actually WAS speaking to 'children of the devil' IN THOSE MEN. Same with John the Baptist when addressing the VIPERS he really was speaking to the ANTI-CHRIST VIPERS in those people...and those workings were NOT the same as the bodies/minds of the CAPTIVES of same, the 'children of God, the children of Israel.'

We (partial or full preterists) are not saying that perfect peace entered into every human being at the cross or through the establishment of the Edenic covenant... but it does dwell inside those who have recieved justification by faith and are willing to make that Spirit Lord.

Agreed. That is why I inserted the word 'token' prior. It is not yet the FULLNESS wherein NO ENEMIES dwell therein in our 'body temple(s.)'

Your picturing the 'kingdom of God' as a yet future event;

Well, not really. Love has also been in the middle of ALL of these events from the beginning. Love will be the FINAL CULMINATION of God toward people and will also bring A FINAL ENDING to the other side of the equations when ALL SIN, EVIL AND DEATH are finally put away. I consider this ENDING the FULL PORTION of my anticipated HOPE IN CHRIST JESUS.

whereas this is exactly what the pharisees were accused of by Jesus. They shut up the personal lordship of Christ and the Holy spirt and pushed 'the kingdom' off into the future realm that they would attampt to rule over.

There again you see, I do NOT BLAME THE PHARISEES for that working. I hear Jesus' Words to the real culprits and even see the statements in print...as plain as can be. You see PHARISEES were also CHILDREN OF GOD by virtue of what they were taught in the O.T. in texts such as Deut. 14:1 and Psalm 82:6. As Gods (BLINDED) children they were children nevertheless and GOD DID NOT bear 'children of the devil.' Yet children of the devil were CLEARLY in those men. And that by Gods Own Design. He made THE FLESH subject to the ENTRANCE of entities/powers that ARE NOT MANKIND. This is shown to be a fact in Peter for example when Satan spoke through him or in Judas when Satan 'entered' him.

In doing so, they promoted the perpetuation of the conditional old covenant ways destined to fail through thier oppression as noted in Duet 27 or 28. (And it shall come to pass that the law would come to bear on them and oppress them).. It were those ways which the Creator and lawmaker of life shut the door on emphatically in favor of (Dan 7:26) the covenant of mercy to all mankinds throuigh faith.

You and I will have dramatically different views of the 'covenant(s)' based on their applications to the parties involved. This would be way too complex of a subject to delve into here...

This is one of the important concepts that the full preterists position brings to the table of mens minds and spirits.

Seek in faith....

Well, you may see that in the same breath you promote FAITH in Christ, which I do as well, I DO LOVE all my fellow man, and do not equate HIS LOVE with a mere WARNING...faith works THROUGH LOVE...and we have been commanded to love ALL our neighbors last time I checked. So LOVE is a fulfillment of ALL LAWS, ALL COMMANDS and that is fulfilled IN US when we do so...

But there are RESISTING PARTIES that are also 'in play' on these matters who are NOT US as Gods children...the same WORD that commands us as Gods children to LOVE will provoke the 'resistors' IN MANKIND to do the opposite...like CONDEMN MEN...dig?

enjoy!

squint

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*SNIP* That was quite a ways back in Matthew, but for point of interests there was again only ONE generation of devils that have been from the Garden forward with 'add ons' as part of that ONE family i.e. expansion through children who then REMAIN...

the generationS plural of mankind pass with their generational deaths...

enjoy!

squint

Greetings squint. Can you just simply tell us Full Preterists and Partial Preterists which part of Matt 24 is still future and how much of Revelation is still future?

Just keep it simple for us non-intellectual Christians here bro. Thanks and God bless

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923/#post52873086

 

[squint]

Greetings squint. Can you just simply tell us Full Preterists and Partial Preterists which part of Matt 24 is still future and how much of Revelation is still future?

Just keep it simple for us non-intellectual Christians here bro. Thanks and God bless

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923/#post52873086

Said no different from the start. The entire account, not only in Matt. 24 but from the beginning of the Word onward to the end is an account of the overcoming of God in Christ against the ALL the powers of ALL darkness, sin, evil and finally DEATH.

How that is played out in particular is a 'dynamic' on all fronts...but primarily done behind the veil of physical views.

Simple enough?

s

 

[squint]

This is where a preterst and perhaps a preterist/idealist who applies the physical happenings to spiritual laws would acknowlede that sin was taken away at the cross as the everlasting covenant of mercy was fully established.

As it pertains to mankind, yes. As it pertains to the final judgment and the putting away of devils, certainly not 'yet.' They have not nor will they be ever 'forgiven' of SINS and will suffer the ultimate penalty for same.

And you did dodge my earlier question about whether you consider those 'entities' still active in our present environment.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Said no different from the start. The entire account, not only in Matt. 24 but from the beginning of the Word onward to the end is an account of the overcoming of God in Christ against the ALL the powers of ALL darkness, sin, evil and finally DEATH.

How that is played out in particular is a 'dynamic' on all fronts...but primarily done behind the veil of physical views.

Simple enough?

s

Not really as you have given no definitive answer concerning which verses or part of Matt 24 is still future.

It may look simple to you and I, but not that simple to the Jews to whom that was both spoken and written.

As far as all evil, power and authority, that happens at the Great Supper of God and mentioned in Reve 19 and Ezekiel 39, of which that also concerns the OC Israelites/Jews.

Reve 19:17 And I saw one Messenger standing in the sun, and He cries-out in great voice, saying to all the birds, the ones flying in mid-heaven, "hither! be ye being gathered! into the Supper of the Great God. 18 That Ye may be eating fleshes of kings......[Deut 28:26/Ezekiel 39:17,18]

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hello once again to all.

Notrash said:

"I read 24:3, not as 3 questions, but as one with a layered information request."

You may read Matt. 24:3 any you wish but it doesn't change what the disciples wanted to know. If you would like to discuss the symantics of both the original text as well as the English translation we can certianly do that. However for the moment let's stick to what we can understand from information contained in the Bible.

You also said:

"When will these things be (the throwing down of the temple) and the signs of your coming (to destroy the temple) and the end of the temple and old covenant ways and age and our geo-political world?"

First let's look at Matt. 24:30-31;

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with great power and glory."

Christ did not destroy the temple in Jerusalem, the temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. The ability to see the Son of man coming in the clouds indicates that this is not something that is spirtual but rather very physical. This passage is not about the destruction of the temple but about Christ second coming and the end of the world.

It would be best to read Mark 13 and compare what Mark has to say on this subject to what Matthew had to say. Verses 1-4 restate the information found in Matt. 24: 1-3​

Then in Mark 13:10 we find that there is something that must be done before the prophecy can be completed. [quote] "And the gospel must be published amoung all nations." Mark 13:10.[/quote] It is agreed by most Christian scholars that this requirement could not have taken place prior to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD by the Romans. This requirement could only apply to the second coming of Christ. Today we have reached most of the world with the gospel. With God's help the few remaing places that the gospel hasn't yet reached will be reached very soon.​

Next we read in Mark 13:14 about "The Abomination of desolation." The Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel once again first concernes the destruction of the temple in 70 AD also. However both Daniel and Christ tell us about a time of great tribulation. There was indeed a time of great tribulation prior to the destriction of the tempel in 70 AD. There will also be a time of great tribulation prior to Christ second coming as prophecied in the Gospels, the book of Revelation, and elsewhere in the Bible.

"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation , spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains." Mark 13:14

There is much, more that clearly shows Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and many other text, are dual prophecies about the destruction of the temple as well as end times and Christ second coming.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[thecountrydoc]

Littlelamb ask:

"Can you just simply tell us Full Preterists and Partial Preterists which part of Matt 24 is still future and how much of Revelation is still future?"

The answers to the above question isn't too hard to figure out if you follow the timeline of prophetic events starting with the book of Daniel. You will also need some secular history to establish dates.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[squint]

Not really as you have given no definitive answer concerning which verses or part of Matt 24 is still future.

It may look simple to you and I, but not that simple to the Jews to whom that was both spoken and written.

Let's make a few observational suppositions on these matters IF you take the premise that the people of Israel were placed under the captivity of BLINDNESS brought on by the DEVILS reactions to THE WORD being planted there in those CHILDREN OF GOD.

The 'people,' the REAL TEMPLE of God was CAPTIVE. Captive by the UNSEEN but operational powers of darkness IN THEIR FLESH.

The LAW was meant to DO THAT...to show them what was going on. The Law was put upon them 'because' of lawlessness IN THEM, really not much different than the LAW that was put upon Adam (if you follow the sequence.)

Here is 'how' God sees His Children, the PEOPLE of Israel:

Numbers 23:21
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the LORD his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.

SIMULTANEOUSLY there was also 'this work' going on 'in the midst' of them. The correlations may be quite interesting with the 'names' of the sons, keeping in MIND that they too had indwelling sin and evil present which same is of that generation we cannot physically see:

Gen. 49:

3 Reuben (behold a son/build-rebuild-SEE introspectively,) thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:
4 Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch.
5 Simeon (heard/hearing) and Levi (joined to) are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations.
6 O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.
7 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.
8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.
9Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? 10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Judah is the symbolic NAME OF THE HEAD...we know who THE HEAD is, Christ, coming from that tribe.

Revelation 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Where you see the derivative of that name, Judaea, that is the 'feminine' version...think here...THE BRIDE...presently CAPTURED by that power of darkness which is of the DEVIL...THAT is who is on the ROOFTOP of them, in their MINDS...

And these IN ISRAEL were in fact SCATTERED because of the working of the LAW amongst those people, the LAWLESSNESS that was empowered IN THEM and revealed....

If you follow this, you may see the people and ALSO the OTHERS whom God was dealing with IN Jacob and in Israel...and in fact THESE were scattered throughout the world or SEEDED into the world scene where 'they/them' grow and multiply into at the FINALE...Mystery Babylon...the unseen behind the curtain of physicality, the REAL CONTROLLERS of unsaved mankind... and in part even in believers..as we all see ONLY IN PART....we are PARTIALLY BLOCKED by that same darkness.

God has promised THIS about every seed of Israel:

Amos 9:9
For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

As you can tell by now the entirety of my understandings will NOT revolve around physical views because I DO SEE in the way of HEBRON which is via ASSOCIATIONS. Besides it's MUCH MORE FUN and INTERESTING to see the connections from the association angle.

Welcome to my view of the warnings to those in JUDAEA. That is why I almost laugh when you bring up physical Jewry only for these matters.

As far as all evil, power and authority, that happens at the Great Supper of God and mentioned in Reve 19 and Ezekiel 39, of which that also concerns the OC Israelites/Jews.

See how you are led. If you get a small meal from what I share, so be it.

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

And again, where does the Jewish/Hebrew Book of Revelation show that "Full Return".

And which part of Matt 24 do you YOURSELF view as still yet Future? Another words, show me which verses of Matt 24 is still yet future.


That is what I am trying to ascertain from other Christians on this thread. Thanks.

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

I write the FULL RETURN as the return of JESUS in Matt. 25 when the nations, those we SEE of mankind are DIVIDED FROM the current enemies/usurpers who CANNOT be seen.

 

[Notrash]

I will answer this post yet and this response although you did not interact with the difference between age (aeon) and world (kosmos). It is as if something that does not jive with your understanding is swept under the rug. This tends to limit dialogue and constructive postitive discussion.

First let's look at Matt. 24:30-31; Christ did not destroy the temple in Jerusalem, the temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.

If you include Deut 32:42 as the prophecy concerning the end time Israel, (Jeshurun) then it was prophecied that God would end their nation, the old covenant and what had become a false religion through the minds of the leaders of the enemies. As prophesied in Daniel the enemies at the time of the end of the nation would be the Romans who were the fourth kingdom to come upon the face of the earth.

41 If I whet My glittering sword,
And My hand takes hold on judgment,
I will render vengeance to My enemies,
And repay those who hate Me.
42 I will make My arrows drunk with blood,
And My sword shall devour flesh,
With the blood of the slain and the captives,
From the heads of the leaders of the enemy.&#8221;&#8217;

This described how he would come and is exactly how he came in vengeance and to destroy the temple. Further commentary about Duet 32 tells us that not all of the disbelieving jews would be cut off because then the Romans would have been encouraged to believe that their own false gods were superior to the Living God of the Jews of the old covenant.

26 I would have said, &#8220;I will dash them in pieces,
I will make the memory of them to cease from among men,&#8221;

27 Had I not feared the wrath of the enemy,
Lest their adversaries should misunderstand,
Lest they should say, &#8220;Our hand is high;
And it is not the LORD who has done all this.&#8221;&#8217;

This was also fleshed out in History as Christ said that if those days would not be cut short; no flesh would survive...non of the unbelieving Jews (to whom the destruction applied:Acts 3:23) would have been allowed to live if it wouldn't have been that the Romans would not have become falsely confident that their imaginary gods had given them ultimate victory in destryong the previously favored people.

This was testified to by Titus himself who openly refused to carry the Victors cup in his victory march back to Rome while being quoted to say "Their is no honor in a victory over a people whos own God has deserted them" .... or something similar.
(more of Duet 32)
30 How could one man chase a thousand,
or two put ten thousand to flight,
unless their Rock had sold them,
unless the LORD had given them up?

This destruction of Jerusalem and the great tribulation was previously prophesied in Duet 18 as part of the ending of the old covenant and repeated by Peter in Acts 3.
22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, &#8216;The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet (Jesus) like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

Peter was already prophesying about the coming destruction that would come to the disbelievers of that end generation. So was the writer of Hebrews in the 10th chapter who referred to the prophecy of Daniel 9's prince (Titus) of the people (Romans) to come..when he talked about the salvation: i.e. deliverence that was to come to those who remained faithful..... and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary

in Hebrew 10:37
For yet a little while, and he that shall come (Titus) will come, and will not tarry.

Jesus coming through the Roman armies is also evident when Jesus said to Pilate; It is as you say.. that I am a king.... but as of now my kingdom is not from this place (hence) This was said while He was in the presence of a seat of Roman authority via Pilates presence; thus confirming in a predictive way that Christ and his kingdom would one day come through the authority of Rome...

Thus contrary to your statements: his destruction of the temple although not through his bodily form as you note was non the less accomplished by Him personally as he prophesied he would...'through the minds of the leaders of the enemies'

The ability to see the Son of man coming in the clouds indicates that this is not something that is spirtual but rather very physical. This passage is not about the destruction of the temple but about Christ second coming and the end of the world.

Again, you have not dealt with the difference between AEON and Kosmos in the last post. But to explain how Christ came in the clouds showing in premonition how he would come through the roman armies consider the historical accounts of both Josephus and Tacticus. Fulfilled in History at the end of the old covenant age after the passover /pentacost of 65 AD

JOSPEHUS

"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian

"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

Who can control the clouds but God himself? Who's presence was often associated with a 'cloud' in the old testament and even in the new as a cloud descended on the mouint of transfiguration.??

Then in Mark 13:10 we find that there is something that must be done before the prophecy can be completed. [quote] "And the gospel must be published amoung all nations." Mark 13:10.[/quote] It is agreed by most Christian scholars that this requirement could not have taken place prior to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD by the Romans. This requirement could only apply to the second coming of Christ. Today we have reached most of the world with the gospel. With God's help the few remaining places that the gospel hasn't yet reached will be reached very soon.

One does not have to be a 'christian scholar' to recognize that the language of Mark 13:10 indicates that something must be done first before something else occurs. Neither does one have to be a 'christian scholar' to recognize that according to the apostles themselves in the testimony of their writings all written before 70 AD, these things were accomplished (past tense) prior to the desolation

Prophecy:
​

&#8220;And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world (Greek oikumene) for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come&#8221; (Matthew 24:14)
Fullfillment:
But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: &#8216;Their sound has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world (Greek oikumene)&#8221; (Romans 10:18)


Prophecy:
&#8220;And the gospel must first be published among all nations (Greek ethnos)&#8221;
(Mark 13:10)
Fullfillment;
&#8220;...My gospel... has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations (Greek ethnos)...&#8221; (Romans 16:25-26)

Prophecy:
&#8220; And He said to them, &#8216;Go into all the world(Greek kosmos) and preach the gospel to every creature&#8221; (Mark 16:15)
Fullfillment;
&#8220;...of the gospel, which has come to you, as it has also in all the world(Greek kosmos), as is bringing forth fruit...,&#8221; (Colossians 1:5-6).


Prophecy:
And he said unto them &#8216;Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature (Greek kitisis) &#8220; (Mark 16:15)

Fullfillment;
&#8220;...from the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature (Greek kitisis) under heaven, of which I, Paul became a minister&#8221; (Colossians 1:23)


Prophecy:
&#8220; But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth (Greek ge)&#8221; (Acts 1:8).

Fullfillment;
&#8220;But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:
&#8216;Their sound has gone out to all the earth (Greek ge), and their words to the ends of the world&#8221; (Romans 10:18)

Which part of the gospel being preached to 'all nations" was not explicitly confirmed to be be fulfilled by the apostles themselves?

Are you sure your not preaching and proselytizing a negative gospel of religion, condemnation and destruction rather than the positive way of everlasting life of the creator? There is nothing wrong at all with spreading the good news, only make sure it is good news.

There is much, more that clearly shows Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and many other text, are dual prophecies about the destruction of the temple as well as end times and Christ second coming.
Doc

I personally have entertained ideas of dual fulfillments, but the more I consider them, the more I consider that they would not be consistent with the character of Christ and the accuracy of language to say what he means and mean what he says. It would be in support of confusion rather than suppporting his completed, victorious and fulfilled work on the earth and the present tense full establishment of his kingdom on the earth and the fulfillment of all Daniel and all the Olivet.

That is not to say that there are not present day applications or continuation of the principles and laws established at that time. This would be referred to as preterism/idealism. But the specifics I don't believe will be repeated just to satisfy our english language twists on things.

We are already in the everlasting age of the saints of the son of man of all peoples languages and tongues as in Dan 7. Preterism supports the present tense full establishment of the kingdom of God through power that favored the saints of the Most High who escaped Judea; while futurism is a pro-religion anti-life theology which denies the goodness of the creation and the present tense victorious kingdom of God. Futurism says that the present everlasting covenant of Mercy is not enough or NOT GOOD and that the earth must again be 're-created' even though the Creator found it suitable to make his visitation in its now present form.

AS an SDA you would likely be a historist... while a preterist would view Revelation written in @65 AD and applying primarily and initially to the then immediate future of wrath poured out upon religious Jerusalem as Babylon. A preterist would also view Daniel as pertaining to the next 530 yrs after the vision seen by Daniel and fulfilled in that time period without the day/yr idea added. It's talking about 'the end' of the old covenant "religion" and the proving and confirmation of the New that was prophesied in Duet 32

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

I write the FULL RETURN as the return of JESUS in Matt. 25 when the nations, those we SEE of mankind are DIVIDED FROM the current enemies/usurpers who CANNOT be seen.

The way you are making that sound, seems to me you apply a more Spiritual/symbolic view of much of Revelations and Perhaps the rest of the Bible.

The futurist chide the Preterists concerning their so called "knack" of Spiritualizing the Bible.

In some ways, I would even venture to guess that is how some or a lot of ex-futurists and partial Preterists become full Preterists by being more Spiritual concerning the Scriptures without really become hardcore Gnostic. Just throwing that out there...God bless

 

[Notrash]

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

And this was written before the salvation (deliverence) that was engineered by Christ that came to those who watched for him and the signs of his comings. Just as in Romans 11:25.... "and so"....in this manner... shall all Israel be saved (written in 55 AD).... the deliverer shall come to zion and turn ungodliness away from Jacob..... and he did, just as he promised that he would.... through the minds of the leaders of the enemies.... which was a total abomination to the concept presented in the old covenant. He turned away the ungodliness of talmudic judaism and babylonian 'religion' in favor of the deliverence of those faithful like jacob/Israel.

The second time was pictured throiugh the fall feasts of the ingathering of the harvest... and I think was pictured in the sending of the ram to the thicket..(not sure). The jewish sources were confused about the dual nature of the coming of Christ. One showed a suffering servant and the other showed a victorious king, both coming in the same incarnation.

The fulfillment of the second imagery is found both in the resurrection and ultimately in the deliverence of the remaining believers from judaism and the protection found in being favored by that deliverence. He revealed himself as King of Kings... and Lord of Lords...

 

[squint]

The way you are making that sound, seems to me you apply a more Spiritual/symbolic view of much of Revelations and Perhaps the rest of the Bible.

Gods Words are by nature symbolic because they are Spirit. Carving those Words in rock didn't make them 'literal.'

The futurist chide the Preterists concerning their so called "knack" of Spiritualizing the Bible.

Yes, they have to to get where they think they are going, but imho their positions are LARGELY VOID of genuine observations of the powers of darkness that do operate in the unseen realm and that are NOT of people, but devils. This is where they really miss hit.

In some ways, I would even venture to guess that is how some or a lot of ex-futurists and partial Preterists become full Preterists by being more Spiritual concerning the Scriptures without really become hardcore Gnostic. Just throwing that out there...God bless

I understand. Read my share of gnostic writings. They spiritualized off into space and out of reality.

We know that every good and perfect gift comes from God. That should mean that good and perfect gift originates in a manner that cannot be seen and comes into our literal environment. Fair?

And in opposing manner, we know that sin originates in thought, word and eventually external deed...kind of the same progression as above, only in reverse.

To understand either as a final product we start our understanding and observations from the unseen.

s

 

[squint]

And this was written before the salvation (deliverence) that was engineered by Christ that came to those who watched for him and the signs of his comings. Just as in Romans 11:25.... "and so"....in this manner... shall all Israel be saved (written in 55 AD).... the deliverer shall come to zion and turn ungodliness away from Jacob..... and he did, just as he promised that he would....

Uh, that would be a NO as it pertains to the FINAL ACT of the COVENANT with Israel...when he TAKES AWAY THEIR SIN(s) as a REALITY.

None of us can say we have no sin or have not sinned. Sins have yet to be TAKEN AWAY from its' occupancy in our flesh.

Now that said, God in Christ did MAKE A DIVISION of that working in the people of Israel in a TWO FOLD manner.

Some of those workings of HIM when He was here in the flesh was to DIVIDE or CAST OUT the devils from people.

But also DEVILS were also HARDENED against Him such as in the majority of the Pharisees.

And such is the TWO FOLD working of the Word...for the people and against devils. Who God elects to raise and harden remains His choice and election. Should God have wanted to He certainly could have cast out the children of the devil from within the Pharisees...but instead they were hardened in our behalves...til the full number of Gentiles come in and we become partakers in the same covenant desire when HE TAKES AWAY sin from the BODY and MIND. Til then we abide in HOPE and the understanding that we NEED Divine Mercy because of that occupancy in our flesh/minds.

through the minds of the leaders of the enemies.... which was a total abomination to the concept presented in the old covenant. He turned away the ungodliness of talmudic judaism and babylonian 'religion' in favor of the deliverence of those faithful like jacob/Israel.

You and I in our basic vision of these matters will continue to have a relatively simplistic difference. I do not look at any man (in the light of the scriptures) and just see ONE SOLE INDIVIDUAL. I know that the DEVIL enters people where THE WORD is sown by the Words of Jesus and it is therefore quite worthless for me NOT to see that fact, even if I don't see horns growing out of their heads. I also take this fact to be a fact for myself.

You do not appear to have this fact in hand, and that reflects in almost all your views. You are in short mancentric and devilshort in your views.

In addition to the MAN and the DEVIL we also have the fact that GOD DWELLS in people as well...so in many we actually have the potential of 3 entirely different and entirely SEPARATE actors on the stage of mankind. Makes things real interesting to me!

The second time was pictured throiugh the fall feasts of the ingathering of the harvest... and I think was pictured in the sending of the ram to the thicket..(not sure). The jewish sources were confused about the dual nature of the coming of Christ. One showed a suffering servant and the other showed a victorious king, both coming in the same incarnation.

Well, there will be a FINAL ACT in these matters of life as it relates to SIN and the finality of same along with evil and death. We are PROMISED an ending of these workings by the scriptures and that has not yet transpired regardless of the spiritualizing of the Word.

The fulfillment of the second imagery is found both in the resurrection and ultimately in the deliverence of the remaining believers from judaism and the protection found in being favored by that deliverence. He revealed himself as King of Kings... and Lord of Lords...

And that would be a very narrow and quite worthless view to any who are on earth today of anyone subsequent to that which you believe already happened.

We do look forward to a finale with the putting away of sin, evil and death and the REIGN OF ETERNAL LIFE apart from those workings. This is an integral portion of our Gospel and our HOPE is it NOT?

s