How do I choose which Tradition to follow? (2)

steve_bakr

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CaliforniaJosiah said:
WHICH Tradition?

You appear to be what my Catholic deacon called "A Protestant hiding in the Church."

And as the Catholic monk, priest, and visionary Bedee Griffiths has pointed out, our understanding of Christianity must not be completely fixed. Even the Catholic Church needs to be open to new understandings of the theological questions. Even the Catholic Church must be able to re-examine its positions. Every generation is going to present new challenges to the Church. But this is also true of any Church, any Tradition.
[/QUOTE]

"A Protestant hiding in the Catholic Church"? And for what clandestine purpose would I be doing that?

I was a Protestant for more years than I've been a Catholic, and also for more years than you have been a Protestant. But your suggestion seems a little strange considering all I went through to convert to Catholicism. I love the Catholic Church for her Saints, spirituality, and Eucharist. I would love to speak with your former deacon, but I don't know him. But my former Protestantism is well-known by my deacon. I don't generally share here about visionary Catholic ideas, because they often draw some sort of accusation. But Bede Griffiths was one of those Catholics who looked far ahead into the Church's future, hence the term visionary. And he died in good standing with the Catholic Church.
 
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Rick Otto

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[=quote=steve_bakr; Is the Catholic Tradition the only valid tradition? Of course, for me as a Catholic it is.

But is there only one Tradition that is right? I think we have to admit that there are other Traditions that can lead to Christ, other ways of perceiving certain theological questions, so long as they remain within the context of the Nicene Creed and Christian fundamentals. I don't feel compelled to argue that the Catholic Tradition is the only "right" way. It is the only right way for me, but it is not the only right way for my wife and many other Christians. So in the end, I think the matter of which Tradition to follow is decided not only with the intellect, but also with the heart.
How can a Tradition be right if it is not the only valid one?

And as the Catholic monk, priest, and visionary Bedee Griffiths has pointed out, our understanding of Christianity must not be completely fixed or carved in stone.
Except the 10 commandments?;)

Even the Catholic Church needs to be open to new understandings of the theological questions. Even the Catholic Church must be able to re-examine its positions. Every generation is going to present new challenges to the Church. But this is also true of any Church, any Tradition.
New understandings have happened that provide us an example:
"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so"
 
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Rick Otto

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"A Protestant hiding in the Catholic Church"? And for what clandestine purpose would I be doing that?
I think he said because in spite of all that you knowingly or unknowingly disagree with them about, they approximate most closely your idea of what a Church should be.
 
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steve_bakr

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CaliforniaJosiah said:
WHICH Tradition?

You seem to ME to be what my Catholic Deacon called a "Protestant hiding in the Church." He taught us that there are 3 types that associate with and worship in the Catholic Church. They are:

CATHOLICS. These are the only Catholics in the Church. He estimated their number to be 20-25% of those you'll find in the RCC. embrace whatever the RCC says BECAUSE the RCC says it. They submit to the unmitigated, unabashed, unaccountable AUTHORITY of the Denomination - with quiet docility. When something is said, the ONLY issue that matters is: WHAT Denomination is saying it? If it's the RC one, then Jesus is speaking and we are to submit. As one of my Catholic teachers so accurately and clearly stated when I asked if something in the RCC was true, "Josiah - would you ask Jesus if He was correct in something He said? Of course not! So how in the world can you ask if the Catholic Church is right about something?" That's a Catholic. I personally think the Deacon's estimate of 20-25% is FAR too high, I think there are FAR fewer Catholics than that, but that's irrelevant to the point.

CAFETERIA CATHOLICS. He estimated these as "more than half" of those that worship in an RCC parish. These are people who reject the Authority of the Church and who take it upon themselves to to decide what they accept and what they don't. There have always been this types in the Church but their number has grown ENORMOUSLY in the past few centuries.

PROTESTANTS HIDING IN THE CHURCH. He regarded this group as not only the grestest evil, but "the greatest threat to the Church since Gnosticism." Similar to the group above, these people also reject the unmitigated, unabashed, unaccountable Authority of the RC Denomination, actually being very extreme Protestants since they hold EVERYTHING as potentially wrong in the RCC, and holding it all up to some norm THEY embrace (Tradition, Scripture, reason, history... whatever) then arbitrate for themselves if it's true or not. What makes this group so much more dangerous than the more typical Cafeteria Catholics, is that they are very radically Protestant (more so than most Protestants) and they tend to agree with the Church a lot more (perhaps 100%) - thus leading many astray. They have investigated everything, normed and arbitrated the matters, and decided the RCC is correct. They are radical, extreme Protestants who simply chose the RCC as the most correct denomination - and thus associate there. He estimated their number as 10% or so - but growing fact. they are the greatest threat since Gnosticism. He actually had a story to tell. At some state university (I don't remember which), there is a Catholic Student Ministry facility across the street from the university and to the student housing area. Anyway, it seems there was this freshman from some Arab Middle Eastern nation who was an engineering student. Unfortunately, he partied more than studied and ended up flunking out, being kicked out of school. To ashamed to go home and fact his family and friends but kicked out of the dorms, he hide in the Catholic Church across the street. For weeks, there were some very strange "going-ons"! Food disappeared. Strange sounds were heard. Late at night, lights would go on and off. No one could figure how this mystery until one day when the custodian found "the man hiding in the church." Our deacon pointed out, this happens in EVERY Catholic parish. And often, they are among those who agree with Catholics more than most.

BTW, I realized I was in the last group. Integrity, honesty caused me to leave. If I'm not Catholic at it's very core, at it's very century, at it's very foundation (quietly, blindly, just embracing WHATEVER I'm told because the denomination says I should), then I'm not Catholic. Ironic that I agree with the RCC far more than most Catholics I know, but that's how it tends to be with this last group. You often sound a lot like me in my late Catholic days....

Again, we see MUCH mention of "Tradition" Yet, no one will tell us WHICH. And no one will actually produce this "Tradition" so we can all see and read it.

What in the world did I say to bring that on? In the Liberal Catholic's subforum, I was called a Conservative Catholic. BTW, I think your elaborate post is directed at me personally rather than the ideas I presented.
 
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Standing Up

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WHICH Tradition?

-snip-

Again, we see MUCH mention of "Tradition" Yet, no one will tell us WHICH. And no one will actually produce this "Tradition" so we can all see and read it. A countless number of phantoms.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah






.




To get back to the post, rather than the poster ...

Which tradition---

Earliest
Widespread
Authentic

Which Tradition? Anyone care to answer?
 
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Standing Up

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For a debate forum, love and hate are almost beside the point. While personal entanglements(negative and positive) are probably going to be impossible to avoid in the long run, what is important in a debate forum are the ideas and arguments that are brought to the table.

As GT is fond of saying, address the post, not the poster.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Josiah said:
WHICH Tradition?


You seem to ME to be what my Catholic Deacon called a "Protestant hiding in the Church." He taught us that there are 3 types that associate with and worship in the Catholic Church. They are:

CATHOLICS. These are the only Catholics in the Church. He estimated their number to be 20-25% of those you'll find in the RCC. embrace whatever the RCC says BECAUSE the RCC says it. They submit to the unmitigated, unabashed, unaccountable AUTHORITY of the Denomination - with quiet docility. When something is said, the ONLY issue that matters is: WHAT Denomination is saying it? If it's the RC one, then Jesus is speaking and we are to submit. As one of my Catholic teachers so accurately and clearly stated when I asked if something in the RCC was true, "Josiah - would you ask Jesus if He was correct in something He said? Of course not! So how in the world can you ask if the Catholic Church is right about something?" That's a Catholic. I personally think the Deacon's estimate of 20-25% is FAR too high, I think there are FAR fewer Catholics than that, but that's irrelevant to the point.


CAFETERIA CATHOLICS. He estimated these as "more than half" of those that worship in an RCC parish. These are people who reject the Authority of the Church and who take it upon themselves to to decide what they accept and what they don't. They are IN NO SENSE Catholic, they just call themselves that and (when they do worship) worship there. There have always been this types in the Church but their number has grown ENORMOUSLY in the past few centuries.


PROTESTANTS HIDING IN THE CHURCH. He regarded this group as not only the greastest evil, but "the greatest threat to the Church since Gnosticism." Similar to the group above, these people also reject the unmitigated, unabashed, unaccountable Authority of the RC Denomination, actually being very extreme Protestants since they hold EVERYTHING as potentially wrong in the RCC, and holding it all up to some norm THEY embrace (Tradition, Scripture, reason, history... whatever) then arbitrate for themselves if it's true or not. What makes this group so much more dangerous than the more typical Cafeteria Catholics, is that they are very radically Protestant (more so than most Protestants) and they tend to agree with the Church a lot more (perhaps 100%) - thus leading many astray. They have investigated everything, normed and arbitrated the matters, and decided the RCC is correct. They are radical, extreme Protestants who simply chose the RCC as the most correct denomination - and thus associate there. He estimated their number as 10% or so - but growing fact. they are the greatest threat since Gnosticism. He actually had a story to tell. At some state university (I don't remember which), there is a Catholic Student Ministry facility across the street from the university and to the student housing area. Anyway, it seems there was this freshman from some Arab Middle Eastern nation who was an engineering student. Unfortunately, he partied more than studied and ended up flunking out, being kicked out of school. To ashamed to go home and fact his family and friends but kicked out of the dorms, he hide in the Catholic Church across the street. For weeks, there were some very strange "going-ons"! Food disappeared. Strange sounds were heard. Late at night, lights would go on and off. No one could figure how this mystery until one day when the custodian found "the man hiding in the church." Our deacon pointed out, this happens in EVERY Catholic parish. And often, they are among those who agree with Catholics more than most.

BTW, I realized I was in the last group. Integrity, honesty caused me to leave. If I'm not Catholic at it's very core, at it's very center, at it's very foundation (quietly, blindly, just embracing WHATEVER I'm told because the denomination says I should), then I'm not Catholic. Ironic that I agree with the RCC far more than most Catholics I know, but that's how it tends to be with this last group. You often sound a lot like me in my late Catholic days....




Again, we see MUCH mention of "Tradition" Yet, no one will tell us WHICH. And no one will actually produce this "Tradition" so we can all see and read it. A countless number of phantoms.




.


"A Protestant hiding in the Catholic Church"? And for what clandestine purpose would I be doing that?


Nothin' clandestine about it, just misleading.


As I said, for ME, integrity demanded that I leave the RCC. Since I clearly was protestant by examining, then I can't be Catholic. Anyway, I've read a goodly number of your posts now and you sound remarkably like me shortly before the epiphany that lead to my departure. Just a comment, no judgement implied at all. We all have our own journeys...


But back to the issue here: WHICH Tradition? You keep mentioning "Tradition" but evading the whole, entire issue of this thread, the sole issue for posting here in this thread. And I long that someone (other than the Mormons - which are eager to do this) will finally (after all these centuries) tell us WHAT this "Tradition" is - just copy and past it, word for word, so all the world can know it. The LDS did this for us, why won't the OOC or EOC or RCC? WHICH Tradition? WHAT Tradition? It's meaningless to keep using the word if there is a rejection of the whole discussion here. IMO.






.
 
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steve_bakr

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Rick Otto said:
How can a Tradition be right if it is not the only valid one?

Except the 10 commandments?;)

New understandings have happened that provide us an example:
"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so"

"Fixed or carved in stone" was a poor choice of words. Of course, objective truth does exists. I was saying that the Catholic Church--like any Church--needs to be open to change. My Deacon has said that, although Josiah's Deacon might have a different opinion.
 
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Albion

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To get back to the post, rather than the poster ...

Which tradition---

Earliest
Widespread
Authentic

Which Tradition? Anyone care to answer?

I, of course, think that Scripture should be our guide, but if choosing were required, I think the EO version of Tradition is probably preferable for two reasons (which I invite anyone to comment on):

1. They don't dogmatize on these ideas in the hard and fast, going to hell if you don't accept, mechanical way that the RCC does, and

2. The Traditions are at least old, if not necessarily traceable to the Apostles, whereas Papal Infallibility and other Roman Catholic distinctives--again attributed to Tradition--are clearly of a much later origin.
 
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steve_bakr

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Rick Otto said:
I think he said because in spite of all that you knowingly or unknowingly disagree with them about, they approximate most closely your idea of what a Church should be.

Yes, I have chosen to be in full communion with the Catholic Church, and I affirm that her teaching is revealed by God. I am not aware of having said anything contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church.
 
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SolomonVII

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In the light of previous direction from moderators, while we cannot state which Sacred Tradition is the Catholic one, we can indeed note the "Exhibit C" that Albion has already presented as evidence.

The Sacred Tradition of Liberal Catholic forums might further be added as "Exhibit D".

The evidence shows then that Sacred Tradition<s> of Catholicism is/are myriad.
 
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I, of course, think that Scripture should be our guide, but if choosing were required, I think the EO version of Tradition is probably preferable for two reasons (which I invite anyone to comment on):

1. They don't dogmatize on these ideas in the hard and fast, going to hell if you don't accept, mechanical way that the RCC does, and

2. The Traditions are at least old, if not necessarily traceable to the Apostles, whereas Papal Infallibility and other Roman Catholic distinctives--again attributed to Tradition--are clearly of a much later origin.

1) They don't dogmatize because ???

2) There's still Victor in 195 trying to excommunicate Asia Minor. There's still Anicetus in 155 rejecting apostolic authority from Polycarp. While folks may think the issue of easter is minor, make no mistake about the early authority of Rome.
 
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Albion

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1) They don't dogmatize because ???

Got me. However, Ortho_Cat (I think it was) made this point. The EO think of consensus being sufficient in some way, I guess. In the West, there are procedures. It's like with saints. The East has them because the people think such and such a departed person is in heaven. He's acclaimed, and so he's a saint.The RCC has a rigorous, legal series of steps that must happen in order for the deceased to be proclaimed "blessed" and then, later, a saint. He is "canonized," which is to say "added to the list."

2) There's still Victor in 195 trying to excommunicate Asia Minor. There's still Anicetus in 155 rejecting apostolic authority from Polycarp. While folks may think the issue of easter is minor, make no mistake about the early authority of Rome.

I'm talking about dogmas, essential doctrines. That's what "Tradition" is all about...not these things.
 
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steve_bakr

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SolomonVII said:
In the light of previous direction from moderators, while we cannot state which Sacred Tradition is the Catholic one, we can indeed note the "Exhibit C" that Albion has already presented as evidence.

The Sacred Tradition of Liberal Catholic forums might further be added as "Exhibit D".

The evidence shows then that Sacred Tradition<s> of Catholicism is/are myriad.

While you see a variety of opinions within the Catholic Church today, I think there is but one Roman Catholic Tradition. The most concise and systematic expression of that Tradition is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. However, there are also Catholic theologians who have different approaches to the social and theological issues of today and, in a round about way,contribute to Catholic thought. Usually these theologians are progressive, but their ultimate influence on the future direction of the Church cannot be discounted. So that the Roman Catholic Tradition is not only about the past; it is about today and tomorrow. It is a Living Tradition.
 
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SolomonVII

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While you see a variety of opinions within the Catholic Church today, I think there is but one Roman Catholic Tradition. The most concise and systematic expression of that Tradition is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. However, there are also Catholic theologians who have different approaches to the social and theological issues of today and, in a round about way,contribute to Catholic thought. Usually these theologians are progressive, but their ultimate influence on the future direction of the Church cannot be discounted. So that the Roman Catholic Tradition is not only about the past; it is about today and tomorrow. It is a Living Tradition.
Suffice it to say that with your own expansive ecumenical understanding of the One Tradition, that includes sharing Eucharist with Protestants, and the rather subversive Liberal Catholic Tradition, which likely would grow into acceptance of gay marriage and women priests, and the exclusivist understanding expressed by a Christseeker, there are very, very many different opinions on just what that Tradition is.

Your Tradition is an ecumenical one. Christseekers is not. Liberal Catholic forum theology is an animal of a completely different colour again.

Living changing evolving, and yet historic, what the Church has always taught. .....

:)
 
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steve_bakr

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razeontherock said:
Yeah but when you address the post, it was written by the poster. The two are inseparable. Context, ya know? No man is an island, even!

But there is a way to address the contents of the post without attacking or judging the individual.
 
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