Hell is a 404

[Disciple37]

Did you even look at my Bible references? Let me spell it out for you: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Ezekiel 45:7

I just looked up the verse in the Bible and it doesnt say what you say it says ...

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If you're referring to Isaiah 45:7

I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.’


Then you have Exodus 10:21-23 that further clarifies what Darkness is for you that agrees with the entire verse of Isaiah 45:7.

21 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, darkness which may even be felt.” 22 So Moses stretched out his hand toward heaven, and there was thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days. 23 They did not see one another; nor did anyone rise from his place for three days. But all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.

It's pretty clear here that he is not saying he created Evil, but he causes Judgement ... calamity ... darkness. That is no way saying that God is the creator of evil. You're misinterpreting scripture on this one i believe.


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NIV Version

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light and create darkness
I bring prosperity and create disaster
I, the Lord, do all these things.

NKJV

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.’

I think when he says Evil, you're looking at the wrong form of Evil.

----

I was correct, upon looking at commentary, we further conclude that the "evil" mentioned here is "not moral evil, but physical evil, calamity" according to the Cambridge Commentary.

So we conclude here, this "evil" is the righteous judgement from God (destruction). Not Evil as in God is a partaker of Evil ...

 

[Light of the East]

Please show me some scripture to back up your claims? If the sinful man being remedially punished know the truth already why will they still be punished? It serves no purpose if they are already "remedied." After they are filled with the truth any punishment is not remedial it is retributive.

Wrong! What is the "remedial punishment" supposed to remedy if the sinners are already filled with the truth?

You don't get it, do you? Before the remediation, they are not filled with truth, they are filled with darkness and lies. The punishment is being brought to the truth. Truth strips away all lies, brings about deep remorse for wrong-doing, and makes the offender realize that his punishment is not only just, but something he actually wishes to get through because he knows he deserves it.

The punishment and remediation end at the same time. Once a person is brought to the truth and repents, once justice for the evils done is meted out and, as Christ said "paid to the last penny," then there is no further need for punishment.

 

[JacksBratt]

It is preposterous to believe, teach, or state that 1/ there is no place for punishment, after death, that we call hell and 2/ that this place is anything but for eternity.

You may be able to twist and mistranslated, take out of context, the scripture given to us by our creator, and fabricate the yarn you have spun.

However, this type of art is done best by the deceptive master .... Satan, the best deceiver of all and best spin doctor of the word of God in all the universe.

The stating of such sacrilege as there being no eternal punishment in a place we call hell is as evil as that first statement that sent Eve on to the fall "Ye shall not surely die"
Genesis 3:4King James Version (KJV)

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

 

[Daniel9v9]

OTOH, God tells us that He created evil, as I prove in point 4. "God made both good and evil – therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6." Did you ever notice that the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life in the Garden also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

I never proclaimed that God will not punish evil, for it is far better to be in the first resurrection than the second. However, as we see in I Coninthians 3:11-15, the wicked and those with evil works will have their works burned up, and will suffer loss, "but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." [verse 15] Yes, saved by God's fire, not annihilated by it. There you are, quoted from the holy Scripture and therefore in line with it (properly understood), and therefore sound doctrine.

Any crazy theological theory can post a few Scriptures, but to be sound doctrine, it must be in line with the Whole Message. The Hell Theory can marshall a few proof texts, but it contradicts the overall Message of the whole document. The No-Hell Theory exposes the theological trickery undergirding the Hell Theory, and has wide support in the data (the Scriptures). That is what this non-theologian found in a comprehensive survey of the data (Scriptures), without reference to church doctrine, theology or perceptual filters.

OK, I'm not cherry picking verses when it comes to salvation and damnation, but rather, I'm talking about the sum of what has been revealed to us by our Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles. I think perhaps the root of your conviction comes from the philosophical Problem of Evil. That is, if God is good, why is there evil? The answer would usually boil down to that either God created evil or God's not in control, or simply that there is no God - This is false and contrary to the word of God.

God is sovereign, good, holy, righteous, patient, merciful and kind. To this all Scriptures and the Holy Spirit testify.

You are in error in your reading of the verses in your point in the following:

Genesis 2:9 refers to God's amazing gift of free will, in as much as we may believe in God as our Lord or by our own selfish desire be our own false "gods". It's not God creating, imposing or tempting evil before us, rather we, abusing our free will attempting to overthrow God, and so sin (namely unbelief, rejection and rebellion towards God) is born. 1 Corinthians 15:21

Isaiah 45:7 in its right context is talking about God's righteousness. This can be clearly understood from reading the whole chapter as opposed to isolating this verse. Just look at the following verse: Isaiah 45:8
So, it's NOT to be confused with evil in general (the source of evil), but rather with God's righteous punishment of evil. In other words, it's the polar opposite of evil. It's God punishing evil. It's affirming God's goodness and righteousness. Furthermore, this Hebrew word used here doesn't exclusively mean "evil", but "calamity" - again, talking about destruction of evil and NOT creation of evil.
Yet again, the context and words used in Lamentations 3:38 and Amos 3:6 agrees with the above and should NOT be used to pin the source of evil on God.

You claim to be a man of reason, so, let me appeal to that. Here's what I would argue on account of God's goodness and righteousness:

1. The Bible has many paradoxes; the natures of Jesus, on free will, Trinity, Sacraments etc. I'm a firm believer that it's primarily through human reasoning that the church is divided on these points. That is, in an effort to reconcile seemingly opposing texts (though in truth they are in harmony), they attempt to reason their way to a coherent and tangible dogma - to lesser and greater success. If you know anything about church history and heresy, you can appreciate that most heresies weren't born with malicious intent, but rather by human reasoning in defense of God - but ironically in doing that, they become entangled with philosophy and mysticism, and they make strong claims about things they don't understand. It's better to take Scriptures at face value and embrace all paradoxes without wrestle with them. Luther said: “Reason is a harlot, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.”
Now, this of course have to be taken in with careful moderation, but in essence I agree. It means this - that in our sin, we are unable to approach or understand God by our own natures. Our reason is corrupt and bent on evil. We can only hold to the truths as God reveals them - whether or not we fully comprehend them.

2. Our Lord Jesus Christ, the apostles and the church fathers all taught clearly about the salvation and damnation of people. The concept of hell, however, hasn't been universally understood to be the same - some say literal other metaphorical - but this should not be read as it's not real. The early church fathers affirmed the teachings on damnation and here the entire orthodox church stand united to this day. To argue against this is a dangerous heterodoxy. Purely from a scholastic view, you could make (a relatively weak) argument that - if the church fathers and the collective orthodox church have carefully studied and tackled the issues of salvation and damnation, and with that hell, from every possible angle, for 2000 years, it's either somewhat bold or arrogant to assume to know better - to go against the grain of orthodoxy and say there is no eternal condemnation for unbelievers. Furthermore, if you make the claim "I don't go by theology, I go by scriptures" - this shows lack of understanding. That's what all denominations and branches of our faith claim. But it would be wise to take notice of where we are all united, namely, that God saves and that he judges, that He has mercy through Christ and that all who reject God in sin and rebellion will suffer eternal damnation, which is their own fault. Revelation 21:8

These are the dangers, I would say, in proclaiming that God is the creator of evil, and that there is no hell:
1. To say that people who are dead in sin and reject God's grace will be saved shows a lack of appreciation of the gravity of sin, and especially rejection of our Lord Jesus Christ as clear means for our salvation, which is a severe sin that leads to a severe punishment.

2. To disregard the second death is to say that God will not punish evil, including people who willingly reject His Son, and by this you're calling God a liar, for He does indeed punish all evil.

3. To claim that God is the source of evil, again, you're calling God a liar, for He himself declares that only He is good. Again, how can God punish evil if He created evil, being the source and father of evil? By that logic He would need to punish Himself. Does the Bible teach this? No.

I would encourage you to pray and read about God's righteousness and His judgment on sin.

In summary, the Bible, especially as revealed to us in the New Testament through Christ our Lord, the apostles, the Holy Spirit and affirmed and carried on by the church fathers and the orthodox church - God is good and He is NOT the father of evil, and He has mercy on whom He has mercy, but those who rejects His son will be thrown away from God's presence.

 

[Mateo1041]

One verse says "All Scripture is God-breathed". That's circular reasoning, saying the Bible is true because it says it's true. Plus, that verse wasn't the last included in the Bible or anything. Keep in mind what we do have was written decades after the events, and Jesus himself wrote down nothing.

There were many books that didn't make it into the Old and New Testaments but could have been. And it took councils centuries to determine which of those would go into the Bible. If all Scripture is guided by the Holy Spirit, why would it take centuries and many meetings to decide, when it could have just been one council meeting and that's it?

More due to intense persecution of the early Christian church. Gnosticism and heretical teachings were also rampant, so the books you see in the NT were ones that met very stringent criteria. They had to have been written by those close to Jesus and His time. There exist early compiled lists of books that come fairly close to what we have today. It's not just some sort of random selection process to suit worldly impulses of the day when the first Bibles came out. If one doesn't truly believe what the Bible says, then what do you really believe and why? Because it isn't based on God's Word. Salad bar Christianity runs rampant today with a piecemeal approach intended to suit the "believer".

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

 

[Mateo1041]

Yes, God desires all to be saved - we all know that. What I went to the trouble of finding out was whether He was ABLE to save us. My finding was that He is able, and then when I considered His omnipotence, it became a "slam dunk." You will not be surprised to learn that I subscribe to Irresistible Grace.

But have we repented of our sin and acknowledged the Sacrificial Lamb who was slain in our place? Or are we purposely and rebelliously siding with sin and thus actively rejecting God's grace?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

 

[Lazarus Short]

I just looked up the verse in the Bible and it doesnt say what you say it says ...

----

If you're referring to Isaiah 45:7

I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.’


Then you have Exodus 10:21-23 that further clarifies what Darkness is for you that agrees with the entire verse of Isaiah 45:7.

21 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, darkness which may even be felt.” 22 So Moses stretched out his hand toward heaven, and there was thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days. 23 They did not see one another; nor did anyone rise from his place for three days. But all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.

It's pretty clear here that he is not saying he created Evil, but he causes Judgement ... calamity ... darkness. That is no way saying that God is the creator of evil. You're misinterpreting scripture on this one i believe.


-----

NIV Version

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light and create darkness
I bring prosperity and create disaster
I, the Lord, do all these things.

NKJV

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.’

I think when he says Evil, you're looking at the wrong form of Evil.

----

I was correct, upon looking at commentary, we further conclude that the "evil" mentioned here is "not moral evil, but physical evil, calamity" according to the Cambridge Commentary.

So we conclude here, this "evil" is the righteous judgement from God (destruction). Not Evil as in God is a partaker of Evil ...

OK, you got me. The KJV, on which I have been focused for so long, says "evil." Other translations do not. However, consider God making the Cosmos, and creating creatures separate from Himself. He must have known that separate creatures, especially with the ability to choose independently, meant that not all would go His way in this new Cosmos. God went ahead anyway. He is thus responsible, and after all, His hand planted both the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden that He also made, so the implications just open up before you. Translations aside, me must admit that God made everything that exists, and so He must take responsibility for evil, though His ultimate intention is for the Good, as the end of the Revelation makes clear.

 

[Lazarus Short]

You may be able to twist and mistranslated, take out of context, the scripture given to us by our creator, and fabricate the yarn you have spun.

Ah, but that is exactly what I have charged the KJV translators with. Consider their yarn about a holy and good and just God who tells us to forgive our enemies and then sends His own enemies to Hell. Does God not follow His own principles? Is the Law He gave to Moses not a transcript of His sense of justice? This Law never prescribes anything worse than death, and never hints at any punishments after death. Consider that in the light of what Jesus said, that if it were not so, He would have told us.

 

[Avril S]

I have spent the last two years digging into my KJV to see if the Hell theory holds up or not. I am a former atheist, raised in a damnationist church, a former member of an annihilationist denomination, and am now a proponent of universal reconciliation. So you see, I have seen this subject from every angle. I did not take "hell" at face value, but dug behind it to see what was really meant. God bless center-column references (CCR), for one of my early clues was the word "hell," footnoted in the CCR as "see Sheol." One thing led to another, and by the time I had finished, I had examined every book, every chapter, every verse of my KJV. I delved into Strong's and Young's concordances, non-KJV translations, the Oxford English Dictionary, church history, even Greek and pagan mythology. I may need an asbestos suit very shortly, but here are my considered conclusions:


A CONDENSATION OF CONCLUSIONS



1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, John 1:3, and many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together – without “hell.”


2. In Genesis 1, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.


3. The Creation is a hierarchy, not a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.


4. God made both good and evil – therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.


5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.


6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.

7. God warns of death, but not of Hell. See Genesis 2:17, 3:3, Romans 6:23.


8. All people die, but none of them go to ECT – only to the grave/pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the CCR.


9. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.


10. ECT depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.


11. The Law given to Moses does not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments are delivered in the real world. See Exodus through Deuteronomy.


12. All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.


13. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there.


14. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Romans 6:7,16.


15. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.


16. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but MK Baxter has Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in ECT, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on…


17. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.


18. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7.


19. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.


20. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.


21. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – either fire or soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.


22. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12.


23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.


24. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is a 404. With Hell so rvdeconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.

 

[bhayes]

But Hell is supposed to be eternal, and no one can ever leave. If it gives up its dead, can it really be Hell? You are correct, however - death and hell (footnoted "the grave" IIRC) must at some point give up their dead, else death can never be the last enemy to be destroyed. Therefore, Hell cannot be eternal, and thus Hell must be a fiction. Can I add the names of Dante, Milton and Baxter? Their works are all fiction, aka, lies.

I think this is the misunderstanding, that hell is eternal. Hell=sheol=Hades is mistaken for the lake of fire, which is eternal, but hell itself is a common place where the dead go. In Luke 16:Jesus said

22One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side...
25...But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer. 26And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’

 

[Der Alte]

You don't get it, do you? Before the remediation, they are not filled with truth, they are filled with darkness and lies.

The punishment is being brought to the truth. Truth strips away all lies, brings about deep remorse for wrong-doing, and makes the offender realize that

his punishment is not only just, but something he actually wishes to get through because he knows he deserves it.

The punishment and remediation end at the same time. Once a person is brought to the truth and repents, once justice for the evils done is meted out and, as Christ

said "paid to the last penny," then there is no further need for punishment

.

This is all well and good but there is no scripture to support it. All assumption. Where does Jesus address any of this?

 

[Light of the East]

This is all well and good but there is no scripture to support it. All assumption. Where does Jesus address any of this?

There could be made a case for Matthew:

Mat 5:23 “Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24“leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.25“Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.26“Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

The context of this chapter is speaking about inheriting the Kingdom of God. So you could make this case.

Also, we are taught to be like our heavenly Father in how we deal with others. In the justice section of the OT, we see that punishment for a sin/crime is proportional to the crime committed. One is not hung for stealing a loaf of bread.

Therefore, there is no sin which demands an eternal torturing of the soul such as the Medieval Catholic Church became so fond of expressing (Dante).

But perhaps you know of a sin so heinous that it deserves unending punishment. That the crime is eternal therefore the punishment should be eternal.

 

[Der Alte]

There could be made a case for Matthew:
Mat 5:23 “Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24“leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.25“Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.26“Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
The context of this chapter is speaking about inheriting the Kingdom of God. So you could make this case.
Also, we are taught to be like our heavenly Father in how we deal with others. In the justice section of the OT, we see that punishment for a sin/crime is proportional to the crime committed. One is not hung for stealing a loaf of bread.
Therefore, there is no sin which demands an eternal torturing of the soul such as the Medieval Catholic Church became so fond of expressing (Dante).
But perhaps you know of a sin so heinous that it deserves unending punishment. That the crime is eternal therefore the punishment should be eternal.

It is not about what I know or think, it is about what scripture says. We as finite, fallible, imperfect humans don't get to decide which sins merit which punishments. What sins did the infants and children before the flood or in Sodom and Gomorrah commit which resulted in them being destroyed? Despite the ubiquitous maligning of the Catholic church, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom,"(Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). ...the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
n general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., ... hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
[This quote has been reviewed and it does not violate CF rules.]
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
<•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•>

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/ ​

 

[D2wing]

There are lots of sects that diverge from the plain text of the Bible into rabbit hole logic like this. If you do not believe the whole Bible is the divinely inspired word of God how can you believe any of it. People come up with odd ball ideas because of human pride and vanity. They want a corner of the truth. There is no corner, no separation of true believers.
The Bible clearly says there is a hell, there is a lake of fire that is all there is to it. I doubt the Christianity of anyone that rejects the Bible because when I became convicted by the Holy Spirit I also was convicted that the Bible is the word of God and that we are required to do something about it. Jesus said a child will be able to understand the Gospel. If you make it complicated or weird it isn't the Gospel. Also Jesus warned about judgement and broad is the path to destruction.

 

[Light of the East]

There are lots of sects that diverge from the plain text of the Bible into rabbit hole logic like this.

And it appears that this is exactly what you are doing. The Op made a very plain case from the Bible that the words which have been translated as "hell" mean the grave.

If you do not believe the whole Bible is the divinely inspired word of God how can you believe any of it.

Yes, it is the inspired Word of God, but the problem is with the translations which have been, in many cases, absolutely wretched. And I have begun to wonder just how much societal norms have played in the translations of the Scriptures.

People come up with odd ball ideas because of human pride and vanity. They want a corner of the truth. There is no corner, no separation of true believers.

Well, that's true. Strange ideas like "the Rapture of the Church" which is something that didn't even exist until the mid-1800's and now is treated as something the Apostles taught. This is really why it is a good reason to have single, Holy Spirit protected source of proper interpretation.

The Bible clearly says there is a hell, there is a lake of fire that is all there is to it. I doubt the Christianity of anyone that rejects the Bible because when I became convicted by the Holy Spirit I also was convicted that the Bible is the word of God and that we are required to do something about it. Jesus said a child will be able to understand the Gospel.

Where did He say that? I don't see that in my Bible anywhere. I see that He said we should be like little children in our trust in God, but Peter even wrote and said that the epistles of Paul were weighty, hard to understand, and that many people wrestled with them to their destruction.


If you make it complicated or weird it isn't the Gospel.

You mean like that crazy Rapture idea? Or the locusts in Revelation that Tim LaHaye says are helicopters?

Also Jesus warned about judgement and broad is the path to destruction.

Well, yes. But what in specific was He talking about? The destruction of the soul? The destruction of national Israel. The destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70?

 

[Lazarus Short]

There are lots of sects that diverge from the plain text of the Bible into rabbit hole logic like this. If you do not believe the whole Bible is the divinely inspired word of God how can you believe any of it. People come up with odd ball ideas because of human pride and vanity. They want a corner of the truth. There is no corner, no separation of true believers.
The Bible clearly says there is a hell, there is a lake of fire that is all there is to it. I doubt the Christianity of anyone that rejects the Bible because when I became convicted by the Holy Spirit I also was convicted that the Bible is the word of God and that we are required to do something about it. Jesus said a child will be able to understand the Gospel. If you make it complicated or weird it isn't the Gospel. Also Jesus warned about judgement and broad is the path to destruction.

I am going to pass over the first paragraph because it is worded as a general comment, not directed at me. For the rest, yes, your KJV says there is a Hell, but is it correct? Among other places, I delved into my Oxford English Dictionary, and the great thing about the OED is that its word entries contain snippets of the word going back centuries. For "hell" the earliest date they give is 800 AD or a little after. "Hades" came in about 1600 AD. I also found from the OED that the English "hell" is similar to words in several other north European languages, all having about the same meaning. So this word "hell" was used in place of some Hebrew and Greek words which did not really refer to a place of eternal, conscious torment in fire, as the concept has come down to us. What I am saying is that a word/concept which were foreign to the languages of the Bible was inserted into the text.

Now to answer your unanswered question, yes I believe the whole, entire Bible, line upon line, precept upon precept. My quest began when I saw a depiction of the Tibetan Buddhist Hell, and realized that it was just like the Christian Hell, except for artistic style. Why would that be? Most of my effort revolved around word studies, but I had an "ah ha!" moment when I found where our western Hell had some from. It came from Norse mythology, which contained stories of their goddess Hel and her realm Helheim. I probably don't need to tell you that the pagan Norse believed that Hel was in charge of the dead, at least those who missed out on Valhalla. Hel or Hell - there is no difference except that one of them has made its way into Christian theology.

If you believe in the reality of Hell, consider what God said when railing against Israelite backsliders who were burning their children in the fire to that horrible pagan "god."

"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart." -Jeremiah 7:31

The same God Who had never thought of or commanded the burning of children is the same God Who failed to tell us that He had created Hell - because He did not. It all hangs together, and the no-Hell teaching simply gets hung up on far fewer texts than the Hell theory - that is, if the Bible is properly translated and words from paganism are left out (but that's the whole problem, yes?). I don't even like seeing the names of pagan "gods" transliterated in the Bible, while the Name That Is Above All Names gets rendered as merely THE LORD. That's one of my pet Biblical peeves.

 

[JacksBratt]

Ah, but that is exactly what I have charged the KJV translators with. Consider their yarn about a holy and good and just God who tells us to forgive our enemies and then sends His own enemies to Hell. Does God not follow His own principles? Is the Law He gave to Moses not a transcript of His sense of justice? This Law never prescribes anything worse than death, and never hints at any punishments after death. Consider that in the light of what Jesus said, that if it were not so, He would have told us.

Actually, God doesn't "send" anyone to hell. Also, no action is going to "send you to hell in a hand-basket" and further, nobody is going to do something naughty that you can say "oh, your going to go to hell for that".

The truth of the matter is that we are born into sin, none of us live a life without it. Even from a young age, we know not to pull our sisters hair, lie to mommy about who dumped the dogs dish of water, take a cookie when we were told not too.... the list goes on.

Because of this, we are sinners and our destination is hell. We are born with one and only one future eternal home... hell.

God saved us from this. He did not send us there.

 

[Der Alte]

I wonder why so many native Greek speaking early church fathers got it all wrong about hell?

“The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)
The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment.
Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)
From Clement of Rome (150AD)
If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)
But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’ (“Second Clement” 17:7)
From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)
From Tatian (160AD)
We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain.
From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one…or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology”)
From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)
From Irenaeus (189AD)
…Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send ‘spiritual wickednesses,’ and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. (“Against Heresies” 1:10:10)
The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)
All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery. (from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)
From Tertullian (197AD)
These have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favor, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense. (“Apology” 18:3)
Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13)
Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged–the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire–that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. (“Apology” 48:12)
If, therefore, any one shall violently suppose that the destruction of the soul and the flesh in hell amounts to a final annihilation of the two substances, and not to their penal treatment (as if they were to be consumed, not punished), let him recollect that the fire of hell is eternal — expressly announced as an everlasting penalty; and let him admit that it is from this circumstance that this never-ending "killing" is more formidable than a merely human murder, which is only temporal. — On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chapter 35
Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (“Against the Greeks 3”)
From Felix Minucius (226AD)
I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment… Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (“Octavius” 34:12–5:3)
From Cyprian of Carthage (252 AD)
An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (“To Demetrian” 24)
Oh,what and how great will that day be at its coming, beloved brethren, when the Lord shall begin to count up His people, and to recognize the deservings of each one by the inspection of His divine knowledge, to send the guilty to Gehenna, and to set on fire our persecutors with the perpetual burning of a penal fire, but to pay to us the reward of our faith and devotion! (“To Thibaris” 55:10)
From Lactantius (307AD)
But, however, the sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire…The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment …Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment. (“Divine Institutes” 7:21)
From Cyril of Jerusalem (350AD)
We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed… (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:19)
The real and true life then is the Father, who through the Son in the Holy Spirit pours forth as from a fountain His heavenly gifts to all; and through His love to man, the blessings of the life eternal are promised without fail to us men also. We must not disbelieve the possibility of this, but having an eye not to our own weakness but to His power, we must believe; for with God all things are possible. And that this is possible, and that we may look for eternal life, Daniel declares, And of the many righteous shall they shine as the stars forever and ever. And Paul says, And so shall we be ever with the Lord: for the being forever with the lord implies the life eternal. But most plainly of all the Savior Himself says in the Gospel, And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal. (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:28)​

 

[marineimaging]

I have no doubt that Hell is not a place, but being eternally without God. It seems you are looking for proof like a scientist looks for answers. When I had my heart attack I didn't have any of those out of body experiences or such, but I did have a dream of being an eternal spirit without Jesus. He was visible to me, across a plane, his back to me. He did not reject me. It was I who did not believe like I was supposed to and that kept me from being able to cross that plane to reach him. Not God..., Me. I did it. I didn't want to take responsibility for my own behavior. My time of 60 plus years was no different than a child who had 60 seconds to make a decision between right and wrong. It doesn't matter how long you have, the nature of your being is manifested in a twinkle of a eye and you can be..., but wait. As I looked into the darkness across that plane I realized that it wasn't my reaching out to him or my foul, tiny, feeble attempts at proving I deserved a place in heaven that brought about my salvation. It was HIS sacrifice and gift that was given to me. Hell, it is a condition of the lost soul, not a place. You will never find it because there is nothing to find. And to avoid it is a gift from the Almighty Trinity Creator Saviour.

 

[Winken]

If you know anything about church history and heresy, you can appreciate that most heresies weren't born with malicious intent, but rather by human reasoning in defense of God - but ironically in doing that, they become entangled with philosophy and mysticism, and they make strong claims about things they don't understand. It's better to take Scriptures at face value and embrace all paradoxes without wrestle with them. Luther said: “Reason is a harlot, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.”

Now, this of course have to be taken in with careful moderation, but in essence I agree. It means this - that in our sin, we are unable to approach or understand God by our own natures. Our reason is corrupt and bent on evil. We can only hold to the truths as God reveals them - whether or not we fully comprehend them.

Well said!!! Thanks!