Hell is a 404

[Lazarus Short]

Hell can be summed up in Matthew 7:13-14

It's pointing to an eternal separation from God for those whom in sin and rebellion rejects God's grace.

You have just contradicted the doctrine of God's omnipresence. My teaching does not.

 

[Lazarus Short]

When will the words of Jesus change to "Everyone shall enter into the kingdom of heaven whether they say Lord, Lord or not?" When will the words of Jesus "I never knew you" change to "Now I know you?

Then how do you propose that God can ever become All in all? [I Corinthians 15:28]

 

[Daniel9v9]

You have just contradicted the doctrine of God's omnipresence. My teaching does not.

No. God's presence can be spoken of in a broad sense and a peculiar sense. God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Yet, He can also hide His face, withdraw and cast us out of His presence. This has to be understood correctly - namely that:
1. God is [I AM] - and from God everything exists. However, God is NOT the origin, source or creator of evil.
2. God is love, just and holy. He is a righteous judge, who will judge the living and the dead - separating good from evil, casting all evil out from His presence. This is the second death.

Jesus' parable about the wedding feast gives a good illustration and some overview on salvation and damnation with regards to unbelievers, people under the law and people under grace - and the consequences falling on us: Matthew 22:1-14

Simply put, to proclaim that God will not punish evil is just not in line with the holy Scriptures or any sound doctrine.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

came into this thread looking for proof that hell does not exist...




guess i'll have to keep looking..

 

[Lazarus Short]

God is NOT the origin, source or creator of evil.

Simply put, to proclaim that God will not punish evil is just not in line with the holy Scriptures or any sound doctrine.

OTOH, God tells us that He created evil, as I prove in point 4. "God made both good and evil – therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6." Did you ever notice that the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life in the Garden also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

I never proclaimed that God will not punish evil, for it is far better to be in the first resurrection than the second. However, as we see in I Coninthians 3:11-15, the wicked and those with evil works will have their works burned up, and will suffer loss, "but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." [verse 15] Yes, saved by God's fire, not annihilated by it. There you are, quoted from the holy Scripture and therefore in line with it (properly understood), and therefore sound doctrine.

Any crazy theological theory can post a few Scriptures, but to be sound doctrine, it must be in line with the Whole Message. The Hell Theory can marshall a few proof texts, but it contradicts the overall Message of the whole document. The No-Hell Theory exposes the theological trickery undergirding the Hell Theory, and has wide support in the data (the Scriptures). That is what this non-theologian found in a comprehensive survey of the data (Scriptures), without reference to church doctrine, theology or perceptual filters.

 

[Lazarus Short]

came into this thread looking for proof that hell does not exist...




guess i'll have to keep looking..

I doubt that you were really looking for proof. For my part, I posted here hoping to open a few people's eyes, but nearly everyone on this thread seems to be sawing logs.

 

[JacksBratt]

I have spent the last two years digging into my KJV to see if the Hell theory holds up or not. I am a former atheist, raised in a damnationist church, a former member of an annihilationist denomination, and am now a proponent of universal reconciliation. So you see, I have seen this subject from every angle. I did not take "hell" at face value, but dug behind it to see what was really meant. God bless center-column references (CCR), for one of my early clues was the word "hell," footnoted in the CCR as "see Sheol." One thing led to another, and by the time I had finished, I had examined every book, every chapter, every verse of my KJV. I delved into Strong's and Young's concordances, non-KJV translations, the Oxford English Dictionary, church history, even Greek and pagan mythology. I may need an asbestos suit very shortly, but here are my considered conclusions:


A CONDENSATION OF CONCLUSIONS



1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, John 1:3, and many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together – without “hell.”


2. In Genesis 1, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.


3. The Creation is a hierarchy, not a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.


4. God made both good and evil – therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.


5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.


6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.

7. God warns of death, but not of Hell. See Genesis 2:17, 3:3, Romans 6:23.


8. All people die, but none of them go to ECT – only to the grave/pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the CCR.


9. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.


10. ECT depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.


11. The Law given to Moses does not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments are delivered in the real world. See Exodus through Deuteronomy.


12. All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.


13. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there.


14. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Romans 6:7,16.


15. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.


16. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but MK Baxter has Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in ECT, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on…


17. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.


18. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7.


19. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.


20. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.


21. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – either fire or soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.


22. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12.


23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.


24. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is a 404. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.

Why do people try so hard to convince themselves that something like this does not exist?

Hell is real folks.... deal with it... get yourself the "I can sleep at night" feeling that comes from believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Hell is as real as He is and the salvation He will bring you.

 

[Widlast]

Yes, God desires all to be saved - we all know that. What I went to the trouble of finding out was whether He was ABLE to save us. My finding was that He is able, and then when I considered His omnipotence, it became a "slam dunk." You will not be surprised to learn that I subscribe to Irresistible Grace.

You subscribe to whatever makes you feel comfortable. Comfortable is not the same as true.

 

[smithed64]

As I have already explained, "hell" the word is certainly in some Bibles (not all), but for complete understanding, you must discern the word it was translated from. For instance, Jesus in Matthew 5 and other places, used the word "gehenna," a real place in the real world, not "hell," a word not spoken in that time and place. In my view, He was simply warning people to act right, obey the Law, keep their body parts and get on with their lives. Otherwise, it was give in to evil tendencies, commit a crime, get executed and end up having your body miss a decent burial, to burn with the garbage instead. Better to lose a hand or eye than to end up like that! It makes perfect sense.

They used the descriptive words gehenna and sheol. Because that is how they descibed things back in those days. They used what they knew. From the desciptions of gehenna
Gehenna is an English transliteration of the Greek word γέεννα, which in turn is from the Hebrew word gê’ hinnom, literally the valley of Hinnom.

John F. Walvoord writes,

"All the references to gehenna, except James 3:6, are from the lips of Christ himself, and there is an obvious emphasis on the punishment for the wicked after death as being everlasting. The term gehenna is derived from the Valley of Hinnom, traditionally considered by the Jews the place of the final punishment of the ungodly. Located just south of Jerusalem, it is referred to in Joshua 15:8 and 18:16, where this valley was considered a boundary between the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. In this place human sacrifices were offered to Molech; these altars were destroyed by Josiah (2 Kings 23:10). The valley was later declared to be 'the valley of slaughter' by Jeremiah (Jer. 7:30-33). The valley was used as a burial place for criminals and for burning garbage. Whatever its historical and geographic meaning, its usage in the New Testament is clearly a reference to the everlasting state of the wicked, and this seems to be the thought in every instance. In James 3:6 the damage accomplished by an uncontrolled tongue is compared to a fire which 'corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.' "Christ warned that a person who declares others a fool 'will be in danger of the fire of hell' (Matt. 5:22). In Matthew 5:29 Christ states that it is better to lose an eye than to be thrown into gehenna, with a similar thought regarding it being better to lose a hand than to go into gehenna (Matt. 5:30). In Matthew 10:28 believers in Christ are told not to be afraid of those who kill the body, but rather to 'fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell' (KJV). A similar thought is mentioned in Matthew 18:9, where it is declared better 'to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.' In Matthew 23:15 Christ denounces the Pharisees who 'travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.' In Matthew 23:33 he denounces the Pharisees and the scribes, asking the question, 'How will you escape being condemned to hell?' In Mark 9:43, 45, 47, the thought recorded in Matthew about it being better to lose part of the body than to be cast into hell is repeated (cf. Matt. 5:22, 29, 30). Luke 12:5 contains a similar thought to that expressed in Matthew 10:28, that one should fear the devil far more than those who might kill them physically. Though not always expressly stated, the implication is that the punishment will have duration and be endless." John F. Walvoord in Four Views on Hell, p. 20

Sorry, my point #1 is beyond question. God never painted His creation with a brush fine enough to delineate rats or platypusses. We see Heaven & Earth paired together many, many times in the Bible, with Hell never included. As I said, once you ferret out the theological trickery the KJV translators had to use to comply with church doctrine, the Bible is quite silent on the subject of Hell. There is just no getting around it.

Christ speaks about Hell, more than anyone else in the Bible. So there's no getting around it, there is a Hell. Those who sin and don't repent of their sins and die, are sent there.

 

[smithed64]

This is why the prince of Tyre is not Satan:

Ezekiel 26 & 27 had been all about the literal city of Tyre and the bad fate God had in store for it. Chapter 28 is about the prince of the same literal city, and there is no subject break until toward the end of that chapter.

God says, “…thou art a man and not God…” (verse 2) - but if this prince was really Satan, don’t you think God would have said so? No – it’s a literal city, a literal prince, and a man at that.

Verse 8: “They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die…”. The previous verse speaks of terrible strangers who draw the sword against this prince, but Satan cannot be taken down with literal swords, as he is a spirit being.

Verse 13: “Thou hast been in Eden…”. This does not mean that the prince of Tyre was in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve – as ever, it’s all in the context. See 27:23: “Haran, and Canneh, and Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Asshur, and Chilmad were thy merchants.” Eden is treated as a literal country like any other literal country of the time. For more on this subject, see the books of David Rohl especially Legend. However, do not think that I agree with all of Rohl’s conclusions.

In view of all the above I must confess that I find 28:14, which is the crux of the whole Satan argument, to be a puzzle, but I’m not going to set one verse against the context of three chapters of text.

It's called a foreshadowing. God inspired these prophets,He knew the message He wanted to get out. He also knew that times of change would come and future readers would read His Word. Sometimes, God would inspire two meanings in one message. I agree that Tyre was a famous city, quite rich, and powerful until Alexander the Great destroyed it after a 7 month seige. To the point of making using the refuse from the city, even the dirt to create a man made land bridge to the Island it sat upon.

Chapter 28. The prince of Tyrus, or, as he is also called, the king, was, according to the Jewish historian Josephus, Ithobalus, known in the Phoenician annals as Ithobaal II. He was the consummation of the pride and wealth of Tyrus; the terrible pride of the city headed up in him. His heart was so lifted up that he claimed to be a god and that he occupied the very seat of God. He boasted of greater wisdom than the wisdom of Daniel. He is a type of the final Antichrist, the man of sin. Behind the wicked prince and king, there is seen another power, Satan.
Satan was the power behind the throne of the Tyrian king, as Satan is still the god of this age, who controls the kingdoms of the world. Inasmuch, then, as Tyrus is a type of the commercial glory of the world, its wealth and pride, foreshadowing the final great world-city or world-system, Babylon, the ruler of Tyrus, spoken of as prince, foreshadows the Antichrist; while as king, Satan himself stands behind him as the domineering power. The descriptions given of Satan as an unfallen being show that he was originally a marvelous being, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. From Jude's Epistle, we learn that even Michael still recognized in him the grandeur of his unfallen past, and did not bring a railing accusation against him (Jude verses 8-10). He was in Eden, the garden of God, and every precious stone was his covering. It is a description of Satan's original place and of his great beauty. Furthermore, he was the anointed cherub that covereth; the Lord had set him to be this. As the anointed, divinely chosen cherub he held an exalted position in connection with the government of the throne of God. Everything shows that this majestic creature possessed a place of great dignity, being "upon the holy mountain of God," walking up and down in the midst of the stones of fire, he was ever present and moving about in the fiery glory of a holy and righteous God. "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created till unrighteousness was found in thee."

Not only was the prince of Tyre in Eden, but God

Of course God was He created it. Tyre, didn't even exist at the time.

, in Chapter 31 personifies Assyria as a great tree, “…so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.” (verse 9). We see here Eden again, but it is more difficult to make a whole nation out to be Satan, so this gets ignored as a proof. The chapter goes on to speak of the death of the great tree of Assyria, and we have the usual words so often associated with “hell,” such as “delivered unto death,” “nether parts of the earth,” “the pit,” “the grave” and “the deep.” In verse 15, “the grave” is CCR footnoted as “Or sheol, hell.” Then in verse 16 we do see “hell,” but it is CCR footnoted as “Or sheol.” This inconsistency hides a dishonest translation and theological sleight of hand.[/QUOTE]

Chapter 31. Pharaoh's greatness is described in the first part of the chapter (verses 1-9). He is compared to the Assyrian, once so powerful and proud. The fall and desolation of the proud monarch under the picture of a tree follows in verses 10-14. The overthrow of Egypt and the resulting consternation among the nations is predicted in the last section of this chapter (verses 15-18).

Again,using the word gehenna, for those to whom it was written to at that time, knew it as a type of Hell. When Christ used the word it is representative of what Hell will be like, and the people of that time knew this. The Bible is not silent on Hell. It's very boldly and loud about it.
God doesnt' want anyone to end up there. God is a good God, yes. But He is also just and righteous. He hates sin and those who commit the sins. Because when you sin, you sin directly against Him.It is a afront to Him. Those who do not repent oftheir sins and live unholy lives, are in rebellion against God and are His enemies.

Hell is very real.

 

[Disciple37]

One verse says "All Scripture is God-breathed". That's circular reasoning, saying the Bible is true because it says it's true. Plus, that verse wasn't the last included in the Bible or anything. Keep in mind what we do have was written decades after the events, and Jesus himself wrote down nothing.

There were many books that didn't make it into the Old and New Testaments but could have been. And it took councils centuries to determine which of those would go into the Bible. If all Scripture is guided by the Holy Spirit, why would it take centuries and many meetings to decide, when it could have just been one council meeting and that's it?

Because men are full of sin. It takes men time and convincing. God has to get men into the right spirit, at the right time to do things. He uses men for his glory. He used the councils, as they aligned their heart with what he needed, and formed what we have to day. The KJV ..

Why did God not bring Jesus before the flood? Because God waited until the perfect time to act. Just like he did with the councils. He may have had to straighten out hearts, work miracles, and teach the members of the ecumenical council things in their own lives to be receptive of what God needed done in the Bible.

And it worked. The KJV has been the Bible God blessed for billions of copy to printed. It took God time to work on the hearts of men to form the Bible how he wanted it.

 

[Lazarus Short]

...

Please learn to quote properly - it is a great tool for forum discussions.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Why do people try so hard to convince themselves that something like this does not exist?

Hell is real folks.... deal with it... get yourself the "I can sleep at night" feeling that comes from believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Hell is as real as He is and the salvation He will bring you.

I used only my God-given common sense, and a basic trust in the Word of God, properly translated. That being so, every English word must undergo review, and I did find some which had been tweaked:

sheol ===> hell (about half the time)

hades ===> hell (about 90% of the time)

gehenna ===> hell (100% of the time)

tartarus ===> hell (100% of the time)

judgment ===> condemnation (sometimes)

condemnation ===> damnation (sometimes)

and I could not help but note that the translators rendered sheol or hades as hell as context allowed. I call that trickery. Why? Because they had no choice but to support the church doctrine of Hell, but most folks have Hell as a spiritual stronghold, and will never dare leave it. For myself, with my trust in God's Word and my God-given common sense, I never found an instance when the word "hell" was justified.

 

[DawnStar]

Because men are full of sin. It takes men time and convincing. God has to get men into the right spirit, at the right time to do things. He uses men for his glory. He used the councils, as they aligned their heart with what he needed, and formed what we have to day. The KJV ..

Why did God not bring Jesus before the flood? Because God waited until the perfect time to act. Just like he did with the councils. He may have had to straighten out hearts, work miracles, and teach the members of the ecumenical council things in their own lives to be receptive of what God needed done in the Bible.

And it worked. The KJV has been the Bible God blessed for billions of copy to printed. It took God time to work on the hearts of men to form the Bible how he wanted it.

How about you do not try and start a ridiculous KJV only argument and stick with the topic of the OP?

 

[DawnStar]

.....

 

[Disciple37]

OTOH, God tells us that He created evil, as I prove in point 4. "God made both good and evil – therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6." Did you ever notice that the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life in the Garden also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

I never proclaimed that God will not punish evil, for it is far better to be in the first resurrection than the second. However, as we see in I Coninthians 3:11-15, the wicked and those with evil works will have their works burned up, and will suffer loss, "but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." [verse 15] Yes, saved by God's fire, not annihilated by it. There you are, quoted from the holy Scripture and therefore in line with it (properly understood), and therefore sound doctrine.

Any crazy theological theory can post a few Scriptures, but to be sound doctrine, it must be in line with the Whole Message. The Hell Theory can marshall a few proof texts, but it contradicts the overall Message of the whole document. The No-Hell Theory exposes the theological trickery undergirding the Hell Theory, and has wide support in the data (the Scriptures). That is what this non-theologian found in a comprehensive survey of the data (Scriptures), without reference to church doctrine, theology or perceptual filters.

God did not create Evil .... he allows it, but he did not create it. He wanted servants who genuinely loved him and served him out of love. If God did not allow evil (ability to choose something other than God/righteousness) then we would be robots. He obviously wanted his creation to love him because we loved him. He loved us so much he let us kill him so that we can be purified by his sacrifice.

 

[Disciple37]

How about you do not try and start a ridiculous KJV only argument and stick with the topic of the OP?

I was sticking to the topic. However i was trying to touch on a question that could arise. She mentioned the ecumenical council which is associated with the KJV of the Bible. It was important to mention.

No one here is starting a KJV only debate. I mostly read the NKJV myself. So, no. Your assumptions are false and sign of immaturity and we should move on so as not to argue over something silly.

 

[JacksBratt]

I used only my God-given common sense, and a basic trust in the Word of God, properly translated. That being so, every English word must undergo review, and I did find some which had been tweaked:

sheol ===> hell (about half the time)

hades ===> hell (about 90% of the time)

gehenna ===> hell (100% of the time)

tartarus ===> hell (100% of the time)

judgment ===> condemnation (sometimes)

condemnation ===> damnation (sometimes)

and I could not help but note that the translators rendered sheol or hades as hell as context allowed. I call that trickery. Why? Because they had no choice but to support the church doctrine of Hell, but most folks have Hell as a spiritual stronghold, and will never dare leave it. For myself, with my trust in God's Word and my God-given common sense, I never found an instance when the word "hell" was justified.

So, :
Are you saying that there is no punishment for people who reject Christs gift of salvation? A place we call Hell?

 

[bhayes]

So, :
Are you saying that there is no punishment for people who reject Christs gift of salvation? A place we call Hell?

This place is actually the lake of fire. On judgment day death and hell will give up the dead

 

[Lazarus Short]

So, :
Are you saying that there is no punishment for people who reject Christs gift of salvation? A place we call Hell?

Most punishments are in the here-and-now. Otherwise, having to die and then possibly facing being tossed into the Lake of Fire should be sufficient. Keep in mind, or maybe realize for the first time, that the Creator's sense of justice is far superior to our own. Jesus told us to forgive our enemies, and then on the cross, He begged His father to forgive His. The fire-forever crowd often brings up retributive justice, but this failure to forgive is to burn a bridge over which they themselves must pass...