Hell is a 404

[Lazarus Short]

God did not create Evil .... he allows it, but he did not create it. He wanted servants who genuinely loved him and served him out of love. If God did not allow evil (ability to choose something other than God/righteousness) then we would be robots. He obviously wanted his creation to love him because we loved him. He loved us so much he let us kill him so that we can be purified by his sacrifice.

Did you even look at my Bible references? Let me spell it out for you: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Ezekiel 45:7

 

[Der Alte]

I used only my God-given common sense, and a basic trust in the Word of God, properly translated. That being so, every English word must

undergo review, and I did find some which had been tweaked:
[1]sheol ===> hell (about half the time)

[2]hades ===> hell (about 90% of the time)
[3]gehenna ===> hell (100% of the time)
[4]tartarus ===> hell (100% of the time)
[5]judgment ===> condemnation (sometimes)

[6]condemnation ===> damnation (sometimes)

Your points 1-6 are irrelevant. The correct translation of any Hebrew or Greek word does not depend on the number of times it occurs in the Bible.
If one is interested in discussing correct translations they should obtain accredited lexicons and review the historical sources the translators used to determine the correct translation.

and I could not help but note that the translators rendered sheol or hades as hell as context allowed. I call that trickery. Why? Because they had no choice but to support the

church doctrine of Hell, but most folks have Hell as a spiritual stronghold, and will never dare leave it. For myself, with my trust in God's Word and my God-given common

sense, I never found an instance when the word "hell" was justified

.

You accuse the KJV translators of 'trickery""support the church doctrine of hell" But you have not provided any lexical or grammatical evidence to support the accusation. Your opinion that there is never any "instance when the word 'hell' was justified" without any credible evidence has virtually zero weight.
Can punishing a wayward child save him from the grave?

Proverbs 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. [שׁאול/sheol]​

In Isa 14 is a long passage recording the death of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. In this passage those in שׁאול/sheol move, stir, rise up and speak.

Isaiah 14:9-11 Hell [שׁאול/sheol] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they [in שׁאול/sheol] shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. ​

In Ezekiel 32:18-22 Ezekiel 32:30-31 is another passage where the dead in שׁאול/sheol speak, are ashamed and comforted

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.


22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD. ​

 

[Lazarus Short]

This place is actually the lake of fire. On judgment day death and hell will give up the dead

But Hell is supposed to be eternal, and no one can ever leave. If it gives up its dead, can it really be Hell? You are correct, however - death and hell (footnoted "the grave" IIRC) must at some point give up their dead, else death can never be the last enemy to be destroyed. Therefore, Hell cannot be eternal, and thus Hell must be a fiction. Can I add the names of Dante, Milton and Baxter? Their works are all fiction, aka, lies.

 

[sdowney717]

But Hell is supposed to be eternal, and no one can ever leave. If it gives up its dead, can it really be Hell? You are correct, however - death and hell (footnoted "the grave" IIRC) must at some point give up their dead, else death can never be the last enemy to be destroyed. Therefore, Hell cannot be eternal, and thus Hell must be a fiction. Can I add the names of Dante, Milton and Baxter? Their works are all fiction, aka, lies.

Hell is not mentioned at the creation because there was no need for it. God did say everything was good, very good.
Jesus teaches us that HELL was made for the devil and his angels.
That would mean Hell was made by God after Satan and his angels fell.
Jesus taught hell as a real place where the unregenerate wicked beings will go..

 

[Lazarus Short]

If one is interested in discussing correct translations they should obtain accredited lexicons and review the historical sources the translators used to determine the correct translation.

On the other hand, my dear Der Alter, the use of accredited lexicons, approved books and standard historical sources can only rarely lead to new insights, and I'm sure you know that. Peer Review steers the same course. Your methods only serve to support the Orthodoxy. In my book, I poised my question, set my field of study, examined the data in detail, and announced my findings. Laz is not trying to deceive anyone, as I described my biases in my OP.

Note that in your long post, I only found one sentence worthy of comment.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Jesus teaches us that HELL was made for the devil and his angels.

However, compare text with text, a method that will never fail you - ask yourself where the devil and his angels wound up. I hardly need to give you a reference, as we all know this one: they were tossed into the Lake of Fire.

Now you know what was prepared for the devil and his angels - the Lake of Fire, mislabeled as "Hell." Now, wasn't that easy?

 

[DawnStar]

I was sticking to the topic.

The OP is about the existence or non-existence of Hell.

She mentioned the ecumenical council which is associated with the KJV of the Bible.

This is a false assumption on your part. There was no ecumenical council convened that had anything to do with the KJV. If you are talking about the formation of the biblical canon, that happened over a thousand years before the KJV was translated.

 

[Der Alte]

On the other hand, my dear Der Alter, the use of accredited lexicons, approved books and standard historical sources can only rarely lead to new insights, and I'm sure you know that. Peer Review steers the same course. Your methods only serve to support the Orthodoxy. In my book, I poised my question, set my field of study, examined the data in detail, and announced my findings. Laz is not trying to deceive anyone, as I described my biases in my OP.
Note that in your long post, I only found one sentence worthy of comment.

As they say in Manila, "Walang problema" or in my wife's native land 문제 없어
transliterated "Moonjae ohpso"
This is the standard heterodox cavalier dismissal of anything which exposes the errors of their false doctrines. While they quote only from sources which support those false doctrines. Pray tell how do your approved heterodox sources interpret this?
בטח אל־יהוה בכל־לבך ואל־בינתך אל־תשׁען׃

 

[sdowney717]

However, compare text with text, a method that will never fail you - ask yourself where the devil and his angels wound up. I hardly need to give you a reference, as we all know this one: they were tossed into the Lake of Fire.

Now you know what was prepared for the devil and his angels - the Lake of Fire, mislabeled as "Hell." Now, wasn't that easy?

Your jumping the gun, they are not in the lake of fire yet.
The angels who sinned before the great judgement of the flood on the earth, God put them into gloomy dungeons, they are in chains and this means they can not be freed except by God's command. These are kept under the earth in hell, reserved to the final judgement of the last great Day of the Lord, then they will be cast into the lake of fire.

Jude
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 and spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7 and delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (for that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds 9 the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

 

[Der Alte]

But Hell is supposed to be eternal, and no one can ever leave. If it gives up its dead, can it really be Hell? You are correct, however - death and hell (footnoted "the grave" IIRC) must at some point give up their dead, else death can never be the last enemy to be destroyed. Therefore, Hell cannot be eternal, and thus Hell must be a fiction. Can I add the names of Dante, Milton and Baxter? Their works are all fiction, aka, lies.

Dante, Milton, Baxter are not relevant. Long before these guys, at the time of Jesus there was a belief among the Jews in a place of fiery unending punishment and they called it both sheol and Gehinnom.
.....Correct me if I'm wrong here the center/side column, bottom references in some Bibles are the authors opinions and not scripture per se?
.....There are actually two distinct deaths and hells listed in Revelation.. One "hell" is the grave and one 'death" is the point in time end of life. This death has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
.....The other death is a sentient being on a horse which, for convenience, I refer to as the angel of death. Another sentient being called "hell" which, for convenience, I refer to as the demon of hell, follows "death" and both are given power to kill one fourth of the earth.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

Both of these beings can be literally thrown into the lake of fire and their power to kill ended. And we don't have to mess about mixing literal and figurative actions in a single verse to make it fit someone's assumptions/presuppositions.

 

[sdowney717]

" suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
This is mentioned of those in Sodom and Gomorrha, that when they perished, God's vengeance of eternal fire began for them, and it will continue from hell to the final judgement when they will be cast into the lake of fire. And also God teaches that death and hell will also be cast in the lake of fire at the end.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Before the lake of fire destiny, the devil is bound in chains and thrown into the 'bottomless pit', such a pit exists under the earth. Must be formed in the waters of the great deep...read Genesis 1.
Afterwards the devil released from the 'bottomless pit' to deceive again the nations, and then meets his final end in the lake of fire. Then begins the eternal kingdom of God where Heaven and earth are joined as one where there is no more evil and everything is again like at the creation very good.

 

[JacksBratt]

Most punishments are in the here-and-now. Otherwise, having to die and then possibly facing being tossed into the Lake of Fire should be sufficient. Keep in mind, or maybe realize for the first time, that the Creator's sense of justice is far superior to our own. Jesus told us to forgive our enemies, and then on the cross, He begged His father to forgive His. The fire-forever crowd often brings up retributive justice, but this failure to forgive is to burn a bridge over which they themselves must pass...

This makes no sense. "most punishments are in the here and now".

If this were the case, why on earth would I need salvation. I live a good life. I have trials, hardships, troubles and sadness, but it's not unbearable. If there was no punishment after death, for being a sinner, other than what I am facing in the here and now.... Jesus living and dying on the cross was a waste of time.

 

[Light of the East]

Correct. It is a place for the unrepentant spirit, not a created place.
If not with God then you are in hell. Similar to being on earth today.

Where in all of the universe do you go that God is not? King David said "If I make my bed in hell, thou are there."

The idea of a place called "hell" where God is not is a fallacious piece of human reasoning not consistent with Scripture.

 

[Light of the East]

I think sarcasm isn't good especially for such a serious subject. You are defying the very Word of God with your denial of a place called "hell". If you cannot believe the Word of God to be totally true, then upon what do you base the assurance of your salvation?

Oh, just stop it!!!!

Please!!!!

The OP made his case from the language of the Scriptures and not some translation from English which came from Latin, which came from Greek. The original autographs do not allow for such a place as "hell."

This is just as bad as those who keep insisting upon the eternality of the just punishment of God while ignoring the fact that the words which are translated "eternal" or "everlasting" mean no such thing in the Greek!!!

Honestly.....sheeeesh!!!!!

 

[Light of the East]

This makes no sense. "most punishments are in the here and now".

If this were the case, why on earth would I need salvation. I live a good life. I have trials, hardships, troubles and sadness, but it's not unbearable. If there was no punishment after death, for being a sinner, other than what I am facing in the here and now.... Jesus living and dying on the cross was a waste of time.

I don't know about the OP, but Patristic Universalism does not teach this. In Patristic Universalism, there is a punishment for sin, but it is remedial and meant to bring the soul to its senses. It is not eternal. It lasts only as long as needed for A.) justice to be fulfilled for the wrongs committed and B.) to bring the soul to repentance.

You are correct. We need the Savior to avoid having to go through this. I would much prefer to avoid the penalty for my sins by having God forgive me by means of faith in His Son.

 

[Der Alte]

Oh, just stop it!!!!
Please!!!!
The OP made his case from the language of the Scriptures and not some translation from English which came from Latin, which came from Greek. The original autographs do not allow for such a place as "hell."
This is just as bad as those who keep insisting upon the eternality of the just punishment of God while ignoring the fact that the words which are translated "eternal" or "everlasting" mean no such thing in the Greek!!!
Honestly.....sheeeesh!!!!!

If one believes everything they see at random websites which have no expertise in Greek.
Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.
Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​

2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
"The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.
αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.
The most frequent use of αιωνιος in the NT is with zoen ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αιωνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αιωνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​

αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} αιωνιος from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).
Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]
In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown​

Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios
Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.
0166 aionios αιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
αιωνιος (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY
αιωνιος
• Strong's - Greek 165
• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds
• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);
• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):
In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…
aion - αιων - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
• aionion, aionios – αιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – εις τους αιωνας των αιωνιωον - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.
What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry[/indent]

 

[Der Alte]

I don't know about the OP, but Patristic Universalism does not teach this. In Patristic Universalism, there is a punishment for sin, but it is remedial and meant to bring the soul to its senses. It is not eternal. It lasts only as long as needed for A.) justice to be fulfilled for the wrongs committed and B.) to bring the soul to repentance.
You are correct. We need the Savior to avoid having to go through this. I would much prefer to avoid the penalty for my sins by having God forgive me by means of faith in His Son.

And of course those who have been remedially punished by God, when the punishment is ended, and they are at last in paradise, will be filled with warm fuzzies for God just like criminals in this life have toward the judges, juries etc, who sent them to prison.

 

[Light of the East]

And of course those who have been remedially punished by God, when the punishment is ended, and they are at last in paradise, will be filled with warm fuzzies for God just like criminals in this life have toward the judges, juries etc, who sent them to prison.

Wow!

Did you even stop to ponder what you were writing when you posted that?

You compare time in prison in which fallen men without any knowledge of their sin or wrongdoing will resent those who sent them to prison with the next life in which there will be no hiding from the truth.

Men in this life are corrupted by sin so that they cannot see the truth. In the next life, we will be filled with Truth for we will all be in the presence of the one who is Truth. It will be this truth which brings men to see what they have done, give them no place to hide nor excuse by which to continue their behavior.

I hope you never have the experience in this life of coming to see the truth of who you are/have been. I had an experience like that 8 years ago in a monastery and I will tell you - it is very uncomfortable (heart rending) and it changes your life. That is what will happen in the next life, not your insinuation that souls will just continue to be filled with sinful hatred.

What you did there was like comparing apples to oranges. They are not the same.

 

[Der Alte]

Wow!
Did you even stop to ponder what you were writing when you posted that?
You compare time in prison in which fallen men without any knowledge of their sin or wrongdoing will resent those who sent them to prison with the next life in which there will be no hiding from the truth.

Please show me some scripture to back up your claims? If the sinful man being remedially punished know the truth already why will they still be punished? It serves no purpose if they are already "remedied." After they are filled with the truth any punishment is not remedial it is retributive.

Men in this life are corrupted by sin so that they cannot see the truth. In the next life, we will be filled with Truth for we will all be in the presence of the one who is Truth. It will be this truth which brings men to see what they have done, give them no place to hide nor excuse by which to continue their behavior.

If the sinners have not yet been punished are already "filled with the truth" why will they be punished? I thought the purpose of the remedial punishment was to make them see the truth.

I hope you never have the experience in this life of coming to see the truth of who you are/have been. I had an experience like that 8 years ago in a monastery and I will tell you - it is very uncomfortable (heart rending) and it changes your life. That is what will happen in the next life, not your insinuation that souls will just continue to be filled with sinful hatred.

This discussion will progress much better if you keep your personal comments to yourself. It is dangerous assuming that everyone's experience is or must be exactly like yours.

What you did there was like comparing apples to oranges. They are not the same.

Wrong! What is the "remedial punishment" supposed to remedy if the sinners are already filled with the truth?

 

[Disciple37]

The OP is about the existence or non-existence of Hell.

This is a false assumption on your part. There was no ecumenical council convened that had anything to do with the KJV. If you are talking about the formation of the biblical canon, that happened over a thousand years before the KJV was translated.

If you noticed my quote, i was responding to a specific subject from the OP that she listed that i felt i should respond to. I am more than within my rights to respond to the subject content within this thread and i will do so regardless if you feel they are on topic or not. I quoted the OP's remark, and discussed it. Feel free to not respond to me if you think I am dragging the thread off topic.

The ecumenical council had a lot to do with the Bible that we now have today ... of course they had something to do with the formation of the KJV. The Bible version used to spread the gospel throughout the world and before you freak you, i could care less which modern version of the Bible you read. Im not interested in pushing a version on any one. Let that be to others that feel lead to do that argument. I enjoy the KJV and NKJV. That's what i like and that's what i'm going to read as others have personal preference as well.