Heaven is Not Where Those Who Are Saved Go

[cgaviria]

It is not that people don't believe the scriptures....they just don't believe your interpretation of them....big difference.....

That doesn't mean I'm wrong. Even many didn't believe what Jesus Christ taught. If you don't want to believe, then don't. I've said it plenty of times.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So, this is why the elect do not go to heaven, since according to scripture, the elect are appointed to live on this earth

semantics.
Y'SHUA said 'heaven is here, in your midst'.
No problem in this regard.
I don't know / didn't read all/ about the rest of whatever.

 

[civilwarbuff]

That doesn't mean I'm wrong. Even many didn't believe what Jesus Christ taught. If you don't want to believe, then don't. I've said it plenty of times.

Sounds as if you are putting yourself right up there with Messiah Himself....that is dangerous territory......

 

[cgaviria]

Sounds as if you are putting yourself right up there with Messiah Himself....that is dangerous territory......

We are called to imitate Christ,

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. (1 Corinthians 11:1 [NIV])

As such, just at he was hated, even told that he had a demon, so did he warn that we would also be hated,

And you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. (Mark 13:13 [ESV])

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Sounds as if you are putting yourself right up there with Messiah Himself....that is dangerous territory......

Not really.
Think about it.
'Selah'.

All the disciples of Y'SHUA say this also. People almost always refuse to believe Y'SHUA. That's TRUE since , well, always.

 

[dqhall]

Whoever ends up being saved, otherwise called the elect, do not go to heaven, hence why Jesus Christ said this,

John 3:8 (WEB) "The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don't know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

You do not know where the elect will go. Jesus testified that the elect will not marry after the resurrection, but will be like the angels of heaven. (Mark 12:25)

 

[civilwarbuff]

We are called to imitate Christ,


As such, just at he was hated, even told that he had a demon, so did he warn that we would also be hated,

Yeah, but he never told people to go out of their way to be "hated"......some people just make an extra special effort at that.....reminds me of a group on the OSU Oval about 1980......

 

[cgaviria]

Yeah, but he never told people to go out of their way to be "hated"......some people just make an extra special effort at that.....reminds me of a group on the OSU Oval about 1980......

I have done a whole lot less than Jesus Christ, merely just posting studies on scripture. I am not hated by people such as yourself because I make an effort to be hated, but because the truth convicts.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yeah, but he never told people to go out of their way to be "hated"

All we have to do is walk into a room,
and everyone not born again hates* us,

except for a few who may be seeking YHWH'S KINGDOM,
or by YHWH'S GRACE (HE can and does make even our enemies to be at peace with us, when HE PLEASES TO).


*(especially when they find out we serve a LIVING YHWH CREATOR (GOD) WHO HIMSELF demands a total life change)

 

[BukiRob]

Those who died were conscious in the story of the rich man and Lazarus.
The rich guy was in torment, while Lazarus was receiving his good things. And also Abraham spoke with the the rich man, and the rich man with him, asking Abraham to send Lazarus, so Lazarus was awake.. None of them were asleep.

And the thief on the cross, Christ told he would be with HIM in Paradise at their deaths. Paradise was Abraham's bosom, when Christ led captivity captive, he took Paradise which was captive in hell into heaven with Him and all who were in Paradise came along for the ride...they were the captivity taken captive.
Luke 23:43
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

2 Corinthians 12:1
[ The Vision of Paradise ] It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord:

2 Corinthians 12:4
how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 2:7
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’

It is exceedingly dangerous to take a parable which is what Yeshua was using and ascribing literal meaning for that is not and was not the purpose of the parable.

As for Luke 23:43 comma's were not and are not found in the earliest copies of scripture. Look at how much the meaning of the text changes based upon WHERE teh comma is placed.

If it is read "Assuredly I say to you TODAY, you will be with me in paradise. In every other scripture you cite you are dealing with a vision

 

[BukiRob]

Christ is the first fruits, Christ is resurrected, but none of His people are yet resurrected.
Christ at His returning brings with Him 10 thousands of His saints.
Jude
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

These saints were with Christ in Heaven.

WEll sadly you are using a poor translation. SEVERAL translations render "His saints" more correctly as:
Behold, the Lord came with [p]many thousands of His holy ones,
[p]Jude 1:14 Lit His holy ten thousands

The NASB, Complete Jewish Bible, Wycliff and the OJB (Orthodox Jewish Bible)

But also it was about these [men] that Enoch, in the seventh [generation] from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Hinei, Adonoi comes with His ten thousands of malachim

Malachim is translated Angles (messenger)

 

[BukiRob]

Well, of course their deaths occured on earth but their souls are in heaven but you are asserting that our souls don't go to heaven but John witnesses otherwise. You still have not posted anything that explains that discrepency between what you state and what the bible states.....

Again, I know that is what you believe because that is what you have been taught but your position is not found on the solid foundation of scripture.

Scripture is unmistakably clear on this topic. The problem is that the majority of Christians do not spend enough time in the OT and as a result, do not know what scripture has to say on the topic.

It is very, very clear and particularly so when you read the exchange between Martha and Yeshua when he arrived after Lazarus had died. She is NOT under any belief that Lazarus is anywhere but the grave. In fact, she acknowledges that Lazarus will rise at the resurrection. To this the master responds by telling her: I am the Resurrection and the Life and he who believes in me will live even if he dies...

 

[Kenny'sID]

I always just think of Heaven as the place where the saved end up. I know where that is going to be...here on earth, the New Jerusalem. Sounds good to me, it's what I'm used to, and the earth is a gorgeous place to be, the world is not. Besides, I never was much for hanging out in a bunch of clouds anyway, doesn't sound real stable to me.

I guess I just don't worry about details. Many people are aware of the truth of what's going on but still call it Heaven, no big deal.

 

[-57]

If the pre-trib view is correct..and I believe it is...1 Thes 4:14 says....

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

When I read it, it sounds like Jesus is returning for the resurrection/rapture with those that have already died.

1Thes 3:13 seems to say something similar:
...so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.

Once again Jesus comes with His saints. Considering Jesus is coming from heaven it seems reasonable to think the believers are already there.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

WEll sadly you are using a poor translation. SEVERAL translations render "His saints" more correctly as:
Behold, the Lord came with [p]many thousands of His holy ones,
[p]Jude 1:14 Lit His holy ten thousands

Are you disagreeing with either translation ?
They both agree

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Once again Jesus comes with His saints. Considering Jesus is coming from heaven it seems reasonable to think the believers are already there.

Not at all necessary.
Never in SCRIPTURE is a saint or any other person actually shown to be resurrected without* his body - there's no vague empty or spooky or ethereal or separated soul from the body.
So
Simply,
when Jesus resurrects the saints on the appointed day,
they come with HIM to rule as it is written.
Really pretty simple.

*not referring here to visions or parables of course.

 

[-57]

WEll sadly you are using a poor translation. SEVERAL translations render "His saints" more correctly as:
Behold, the Lord came with [p]many thousands of His holy ones,
[p]Jude 1:14 Lit His holy ten thousands

The NASB, Complete Jewish Bible, Wycliff and the OJB (Orthodox Jewish Bible)

But also it was about these [men] that Enoch, in the seventh [generation] from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Hinei, Adonoi comes with His ten thousands of malachim

Malachim is translated Angles (messenger)

Is this verse in Jude referring to Rev 19:14?
And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

 

[-57]

Not at all necessary.
Never in SCRIPTURE is a saint or any other person actually shown to be resurrected without* his body - there's no vague empty or spooky or ethereal or separated soul from the body.
So
Simply,
when Jesus resurrects the saints on the appointed day,
they come with HIM to rule as it is written.
Really pretty simple.

*not referring here to visions or parables of course.

Jesus comes twice...so to speak...First at the rapture where He stops in the sky....then again for the second time as seen in Rev 19:14.

 

[-57]

Not at all necessary.
Never in SCRIPTURE is a saint or any other person actually shown to be resurrected without* his body - there's no vague empty or spooky or ethereal or separated soul from the body.
So
Simply,
when Jesus resurrects the saints on the appointed day,
they come with HIM to rule as it is written.
Really pretty simple.

*not referring here to visions or parables of course.

To add to that...concerning resurrection....when Christ comes back for the rapture He is coming back with the "spirits" of the saints that have been in heaven where they will rejoin with their resurrected bodies....and return to heaven...then return again in Rev 19:14 style.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

To add to that...concerning resurrection....when Christ comes back for the rapture He is coming back with the "spirits" of the saints that have been in heaven where they will rejoin with their resurrected bodies....and return to heaven...then return again in Rev 19:14 style.

Yes, I see what you are saying,
but as for me,
I wouldn't add all that to YHWH'S WORD.