Heaven is Not Where Those Who Are Saved Go

[-57]

WEll sadly you are using a poor translation. SEVERAL translations render "His saints" more correctly as:
Behold, the Lord came with [p]many thousands of His holy ones,
[p]Jude 1:14 Lit His holy ten thousands

The NASB, Complete Jewish Bible, Wycliff and the OJB (Orthodox Jewish Bible)

But also it was about these [men] that Enoch, in the seventh [generation] from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Hinei, Adonoi comes with His ten thousands of malachim

Malachim is translated Angles (messenger)

I see no overwhelming reason to think the holy ones are angels.
Just for the record where did you get "malachim" from?

I see hagiais (check out my link) and click here for the original greek.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus comes twice...so to speak...First at the rapture where He stops in the sky....then again for the second time as seen in Rev 19:14.

(shhhhh...... ) (for future possibilities)
There is one faithful teacher in the last century who taught from YHWH'S WORD
the < probable > 2 resurrections
perhaps like/similar to what you are referring
(but not with any separation of body and soul or spirit loose floating anywhere as that never occurs in SCRIPTURE)
but the teaching while totally in line with SCRIPTURE is still beyond by grasp in the details (on purpose actually; so many people just want to fight about it, I didn't want to get in a fight about YHWH'S WORD, PLAN, or PURPOSE).

 

[-57]

Yes, I see what you are saying,
but as for me,
I wouldn't add all that to YHWH'S WORD.

I would be more afraid to take it away from YHWH'S WORD.

I'm not trying to be dogmatic....simply trying to understand it.

 

[rockytopva]

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

Everything mass therefore at one time was liquid plasma (E/c2). Who knows in the eternities before the creation how many times this E/c2 has cooled into mass, and dissociated back into plasma?

But... I show you a mystery! God is going to once again dissociate the mass into plasma and do something else with it!

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? - 2 Peter 3

In which of this earth...

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. - Isaiah 65:17

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. - 2 Peter 3:13

A man takes his car, drives it to the middle of the Golden Gate bridge, leaves a note to all his friends and love ones... And then jumps off the bridge into the fog below.

This to me is what happens to us at death. After we take our last breath our souls fall out of the body quite helplessly into the fog below. Who knows what we have awaiting to scramble for our souls as they fall into the limbo below? Will we have a cart awaiting us to take us to our eternal abode? Will angels and devils await to take mastery over our souls once they fall out of the body? Will we simply awake to either heaven or hell?

Once our soul falls out of the body it is an eternal thing. There is no going back to our present estate to make up for the errors committed in this life. I personally have not plans of leaving this world without being hand in hand with the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. When our soul makes the plunge the body returns from the dust from which it was created. At that point we must place all our hopes on the eternal God who created us.

I remember when Gandalf was recovered from the mountaintop by the eagle who was sent to look for him by Galadriel. The eagle make some comment to Gandalf about his being "light as a feather" and if he dropped him, he thought Gandalf would just float? Doesn't Gandalf then say something along the lines of don't drop me! That is my memory of the scene -- A check for the exact wording will have to wait until I have time to look at the text.

I would imagine that we become light as a feather after our soul drops out of our body. And if the angels decided to let us go that we would just float in outer space. When we die we must place everything in the hands and imagination of God. We will have no power ourselves. As helpless as the day we were born.

 

[-57]

(shhhhh...... )
There is one faithful teacher in the last century who taught from YHWH'S WORD
the < probable > 2 resurrections
perhaps like/similar to what you are referring
(but not with any separation of body and soul or spirit loose floating anywhere as that never occurs in SCRIPTURE)
but the teaching while totally in line with SCRIPTURE is still beyond by grasp in the details (on purpose actually; so many people just want to fight about it, I didn't want to get in a fight about YHWH'S WORD, PLAN, or PURPOSE).

I see one resurrection for the saints...and another for the non believers.

Remember....Stephen asked that Jesus receive his spirit.(Acts 7:59) Stephen seemed to believe in a separation from the body.

...didn't Paul say something about being absent from the body present with the lord? 2nd Cor 5:8

 

[-57]

A man takes his car, drives it to the middle of the Golden Gate bridge, leaves a note to all his friends and love ones... And then jumps off the bridge into the fog below.

This to me is what happens to us at death. After we take our last breath our souls fall out of the body quite helplessly into the fog below. Who knows what we have awaiting to scramble for our souls as they fall into the limbo below? Will we have a cart awaiting us to take us to our eternal abode? Will angels and devils await to take mastery over our souls once they fall out of the body? Will we simply awake to either heaven or hell?

Once our soul falls out of the body it is an eternal thing. There is no going back to our present estate to make up for the errors committed in this life. I personally have not plans of leaving this world without being hand in hand with the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. When our soul makes the plunge the body returns from the dust from which it was created. At that point we must place all our hopes on the eternal God who created us.

I remember when Gandalf was recovered from the mountaintop by the eagle who was sent to look for him by Galadriel. The eagle make some comment to Gandalf about his being "light as a feather" and if he dropped him, he thought Gandalf would just float? Doesn't Gandalf then say something along the lines of don't drop me! That is my memory of the scene -- A check for the exact wording will have to wait until I have time to look at the text.

I would imagine that we become light as a feather after our soul drops out of our body. And if the angels decided to let us go that we would just float in outer space. When we die we must place everything in the hands and imagination of God. We will have no power ourselves. As helpless as the day we were born.

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?

...are you floating around or do you get a room?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

.didn't Paul say something about being absent from the body present with the lord?

Yes, but that doesn't apply to the discussion here, per se.
He knew that basically in 1/10 second(humanly speaking; from a man's viewpoint) after he died/slept, he would wake in the MESSIAH'S PRESENCE. He knew that this would be perhaps centuries later, as he and all the ecclesia knew or were learning about and believed in the hope of the resurrection from the dead by grace,
because Y'SHUA MESSIAH has risen from the dead NEVER TO DIE AGAIN.

 

[-57]

Yes, but that doesn't apply to the discussion here, per se.
He knew that basically in 1/10 second(humanly speaking; from a man's viewpoint) after he died/slept, he would wake in the MESSIAH'S PRESENCE. He knew that this would be perhaps centuries later, as he and all the ecclesia knew or were learning about and believed in the hope of the resurrection from the dead by grace,
because Y'SHUA MESSIAH has risen from the dead NEVER TO DIE AGAIN.

Nice thought..but absent from the body present with the Lord...doesn't imply centuries later. Perhaps I'm incorrect and you can justify your last post with a chapter and verse.

 

[rockytopva]

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?

...are you floating around or do you get a room?

Yes... but there is a distance between those mansions and this earth. We must be transported!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Nice thought..but absent from the body present with the Lord...doesn't imply centuries later. Perhaps I'm incorrect and you can justify your last post with a chapter and verse.

How ? You believe something not in evidence.
There is no way I know of to refute what you believe.
You have a lot of company also, though I have no idea why. (it most likely was started after 312a.d., but I've never heard of nor read the actual origin of such - only a lot of other traditions took the place of SCRIPTURE after then.) .

 

[-57]

Yes... but there is a distance between those mansions and this earth. We must be transported!

When we die?

 

[BukiRob]

Are you disagreeing with either translation ?
They both agree

No my point was that in the NASB and the other translations I cited do NOT indicate that they are saved believers but rather they are the Angles of Heaven

 

[BukiRob]

I see no overwhelming reason to think the holy ones are angels.
Just for the record where did you get "malachim" from?

I see hagiais (check out my link) and click here for the original greek.

I cited it you must have missed it... the Orthodox Jewish Bible....

I see no reason to believe they are redeemed believers

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Is there any reason at all to think
they are not both saints (redeemed believers) AND angels present ?

 

[ebedmelech]

Heaven is in the presence of the Lord. Why is this even an issue?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Heaven is in the presence of the Lord. Why is this even an issue?

No worries - remember when the scribes and pharisees were right in front of Y'SHUA MESSIAH,
and did not recognize HIM nor accept HIM ?
And HE told them (and many others)
'the kingdom of heaven is here (at hand); turn to YHWH while you can' ( to be saved out of the kingdom of the enemy/ flesh/ sin/)

and they did not believe HIM !?

Same thing happens today.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Again, I know that is what you believe because that is what you have been taught but your position is not found on the solid foundation of scripture.

Scripture is unmistakably clear on this topic. The problem is that the majority of Christians do not spend enough time in the OT and as a result, do not know what scripture has to say on the topic.

It is very, very clear and particularly so when you read the exchange between Martha and Yeshua when he arrived after Lazarus had died. She is NOT under any belief that Lazarus is anywhere but the grave. In fact, she acknowledges that Lazarus will rise at the resurrection. To this the master responds by telling her: I am the Resurrection and the Life and he who believes in me will live even if he dies...

All you have done in your post is state that I am wrong and you are right without offering anything scriptural to support your postition.....unless what John witnessed in Revelation is wrong.....in which case all of Revelation is a lie.....

 

[civilwarbuff]

It is very, very clear and particularly so when you read the exchange between Martha and Yeshua when he arrived after Lazarus had died. She is NOT under any belief that Lazarus is anywhere but the grave. In fact, she acknowledges that Lazarus will rise at the resurrection. To this the master responds by telling her: I am the Resurrection and the Life and he who believes in me will live even if he dies...

All souls were in Sheol at this point.....the captives had not yet been set free by Messiah's sacrifice and resurrection.....

 

[mmksparbud]

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Joh_18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Joh_14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh_17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

We will be with Christ during the 1000 years.
Joh_14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh_14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

This happens after the 1000 years. Christ sets His Holy City on the newly made earth after the 1000 years.
2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe_3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

When Christ returns the earth is destroyed--and stays so for a 1000 years while we are with Him. Then He remakes the earth--but the earth will have a 1000 year rest first---

That is why God said this---both point to that 1000 year rest of the land.
Exo 23:10 And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
Exo 23:11 But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard.
Lev 25:4 But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard.
Lev 25:5 That which groweth of its own accord of thy harvest thou shalt not reap, neither gather the grapes of thy vine undressed: for it is a year of rest unto the land.
Exo 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.

 

[JacksBratt]

> Heaven is Not Where Those Who Are Saved Go

I agree with this line (I didn't finish the whole OP). Although the saved go to heaven temporarily, our ultimate destination is the New Earth, which is created after the Great White Throne judgment.

This is correct. A new Heaven and a new earth. Where heaven will descend to the earth and we will dwell with our lord forever.