Heaven is Not Where Those Who Are Saved Go

[cgaviria]

Whoever ends up being saved, otherwise called the elect, do not go to heaven, hence why Jesus Christ said this,

Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. (Matthew 5:5 [NIV])

This saying is a fulfillment of this prophecy in this Psalm,

But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. (Psalm 37:11 [KJV])

So where do the elect go? Those who are elect stay on the earth, since the earth is the true promised land to those who are elect. The promised land of Israel was a type and foreshadow of a greater land the people of God will acquire, and it is the entire earth. This is why there is a second coming of Jesus Christ, to visibly and literally take possession of the earth, in which case the earth will finally become his at the last trumpet blast,

And the seventh angel trumped. And there were great voices in the heaven, saying, the kingdom of the world is become of our Lord, and of his Christ, and he shall reign into the eons of the eons. (Revelation of John 11:15 [ABP])​

Which also fulfills this prophecy,

I will proclaim the LORD's decree: He said to me, "You are my son; today I have become your father. Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery." (Psalm 2:7-9 [NIV])​

It will be at his return, that the trumpet blasts will begin to sound,

"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.(Matthew 24:30-31 [NIV])​

[16] For the Lord himself in a word of command by the voice of an archangel, and with a trumpet of God, shall descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise up first. [17] Thereupon we the living, the ones remaining, together with them shall be seized in clouds, for meeting the Lord in the air, and thus at all times with the Lord we shall be. (I Thessalonians 4:16-17 [ABP])

And at the last trumpet blast, not only will the Lord take possession of the earth, but also all the elect be instantly changed into imperishable and immortal bodies that do not grow old and do not die,

[51] Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not indeed all sleep, but all shall be changed, [52] in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For it shall trump, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [53] For it is necessary this corruption to put on incorruptibility, and this mortal to put on immortality. [54] But whenever this corruptible should have put on incorruptibility, and this mortal should have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the word having been written, Death was swallowed down in victory. (I Corinthians 15:51-54 [ABP])

It is also at the last trumpet blast that the elect who are dead will be resurrected, which is the first resurrection,

(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:5-6 [NIV])​

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. (Daniel 12:1-3 [KJV])​

And so, at the last trumpet blast, once all the elect have been changed into new bodies, they will then be gathered by angels to meet the Lord in the air, where those who were raised from the dead will be gathered first, and then the rest who were already alive will be gathered after. And so, from there, just as the Israelites took control of their plot of land over time,

But I will not drive them out in a single year, because the land would become desolate and the wild animals too numerous for you. Little by little I will drive them out before you, until you have increased enough to take possession of the land. (Exodus 23:29-30 [NIV])​

So will the elect take possession of the earth over time after the trumpet blasts. Each of the elect will then be given authority to rule on the earth just as the Israelites ruled over their plot of land, which fulfills these prophecies,

To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations -- that one 'will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery' --just as I have received authority from my Father. (Revelation 2:26-27 [NIV])​

The one who conquers,I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. (Revelation 3:21 [ESV])​

It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. (Romans 4:13 [NIV])

"As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance." (Daniel 12:13 [NIV])​

And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’ (Daniel 7:27 [ESV])

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.(Daniel 2:44 [KJV])​

And also coincides with this parable,

"'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.' "The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.' "His master answered, ' You take charge of five cities.' (Luke 19:17-19 [NIV])​

Each of the elect will be given a different measure of authority to rule on the earth, and the elect will also be given authority to judge, which fulfills these scriptures,

Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? (1 Corinthians 6:2 [ESV])​

Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! (1 Corinthians 6:3 [ESV])​

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4 [ESV])​

Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things,
when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28 [NIV])​

This period of rulership will last for a thousand years, before another period of a new heaven and new earth begins, wherein the elect that ruled on the earth for one thousand years, will then receive an allotment in a new city whose architect is God, a city of gold that descends from heaven onto the earth, and will be called the New Jerusalem. It is when this new city descends from heaven, that those who stored treasures in heaven for safekeeping will then receive their treasures in this new city to come, which will exist on a new earth,

But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. (Matthew 6:20 [NIV])​

For both in my bonds you sympathized; and the seizure of your possessions with joy you accepted, knowing to have in yourselves a better possession in heavens, and abiding. (Hebrews 10:34 [ABP])​

In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (John 14:2 [KJV])​

I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. (Revelation 21:2-3 [NIV])​

So, this is why the elect do not go to heaven, since according to scripture, the elect are appointed to live on this earth, and also in the new earth, in which case the elect will first be given immortality and authority to rule in this earth, and then will also be given wealth beyond measure in the new earth.

 

[dysert]

> Heaven is Not Where Those Who Are Saved Go

I agree with this line (I didn't finish the whole OP). Although the saved go to heaven temporarily, our ultimate destination is the New Earth, which is created after the Great White Throne judgment.

 

[EmSw]

Whoever ends up being saved, otherwise called the elect, do not go to heaven, hence why Jesus Christ said this,

This saying is a fulfillment of this prophecy in this Psalm,

So where do the elect go? Those who are elect stay on the earth, since the earth is the true promised land to those who are elect. The promised land of Israel was a type and foreshadow of a greater land the people of God will acquire, and it is the entire earth. This is why there is a second coming of Jesus Christ, to visibly and literally take possession of the earth, in which case the earth will finally become his at the last trumpet blast,

The Lord's kingdom is not of this world. If it were so, He would have told us.

Luke 17:21
Neither shall they say, lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[cgaviria]

The Lord's kingdom is not of this world. If it were so, He would have told us.

Luke 17:21
Neither shall they say, lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Because his kingdom did not originate from the world, but from above, since he came down from heaven,

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. (John 6:38 [NIV])

 

[cgaviria]

staff edit

There is no wisdom in any of this, however, just as I have provided scripture for each statement I have made, I challenge you to do the same, and see if anything you have said is supported by scripture, or is not.

 

[cgaviria]

> Heaven is Not Where Those Who Are Saved Go

I agree with this line (I didn't finish the whole OP). Although the saved go to heaven temporarily, our ultimate destination is the New Earth, which is created after the Great White Throne judgment.

The elect do not go to heaven temporarily. I suggest that after you finish reading this study, that you jump onto this next study I have posted, to understand what death is like, http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ctions-and-the-lake-of-fire-judgment.7971219/ .

 

[Raggedyman]

Whoever ends up being saved, otherwise called the elect, do not go to heaven, hence why Jesus Christ said this,

This saying is a fulfillment of this prophecy in this Psalm,

So where do the elect go? Those who are elect stay on the earth, since the earth is the true promised land to those who are elect. The promised land of Israel was a type and foreshadow of a greater land the people of God will acquire, and it is the entire earth. This is why there is a second coming of Jesus Christ, to visibly and literally take possession of the earth, in which case the earth will finally become his at the last trumpet blast,

Which also fulfills this prophecy,

It will be at his return, that the trumpet blasts will begin to sound,


And at the last trumpet blast, not only will the Lord take possession of the earth, but also all the elect be instantly changed into imperishable and immortal bodies that do not grow old and do not die,

It is also at the last trumpet blast that the elect who are dead will be resurrected, which is the first resurrection,


And so, at the last trumpet blast, once all the elect have been changed into new bodies, they will then be gathered by angels to meet the Lord in the air, where those who were raised from the dead will be gathered first, and then the rest who were already alive will be gathered after. And so, from there, just as the Israelites took control of their plot of land over time,

So will the elect take possession of the earth over time after the trumpet blasts. Each of the elect will then be given authority to rule on the earth just as the Israelites ruled over their plot of land, which fulfills these prophecies,






And also coincides with this parable,

Each of the elect will be given a different measure of authority to rule on the earth, and the elect will also be given authority to judge, which fulfills these scriptures,




This period of rulership will last for a thousand years, before another period of a new heaven and new earth begins, wherein the elect that ruled on the earth for one thousand years, will then receive an allotment in a new city whose architect is God, a city of gold that descends from heaven onto the earth, and will be called the New Jerusalem. It is when this new city descends from heaven, that those who stored treasures in heaven for safekeeping will then receive their treasures in this new city to come, which will exist on a new earth,




So, this is why the elect do not go to heaven, since according to scripture, the elect are appointed to live on this earth, and also in the new earth, in which case the elect will first be given immortality and authority to rule in this earth, and then will also be given wealth beyond measure in the new earth.

So where is heaven?

In the Lords Prayer we are told that God is in heaven arnt we?
So logically to me where God is, that's heaven.
So if Christ restored our relationship with God, then it stands to reason that if we are in relationship with God, we are in heaven

Could you imagine a book not about the physical state of being but about the spiritual state of being
That's what the bible is about
That's the promise

 

[cgaviria]

So where is heaven?

In the Lords Prayer we are told that God is in heaven arnt we?
So logically to me where God is, that's heaven.
So if Christ restored our relationship with God, then it stands to reason that if we are in relationship with God, we are in heaven

Could you imagine a book not about the physical state of being but about the spiritual state of being
That's what the bible is about
That's the promise

This is not so, as this is not what is written and appointed to be. The purpose behind the return of Jesus Christ is to establish his physical kingdom on the earth, in which case he will bring forth powerful judgments to judge and also subjugate the world to himself, and give authority to the elect to rule on the earth along with him. This is the true restoration of Israel that even the disciples were expecting,

Then they gathered around him and asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6 [NIV])

 

[Raggedyman]

This is not so, as this is not what is written and appointed to be. The purpose behind the return of Jesus Christ is to establish his physical kingdom on the earth, in which case he will bring forth powerful judgments to judge and also subjugate the world to himself, and give authority to the elect to rule on the earth along with him. This is the true restoration of Israel that even the disciples were expecting,

This is not so or this is not what you think is so


Be great if you could answer my question, where is heaven.
I am inclined to think you think it's a physical place, is it?

 

[cgaviria]

This is not so or this is not what you think is so


Be great if you could answer my question, where is heaven.
I am inclined to think you think it's a physical place, is it?

It is not what I think to be so, this is what the scriptures teach,

But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. (Psalm 37:11 [KJV])

And the seventh angel trumped. And there were great voices in the heaven, saying, the kingdom of the world is become of our Lord, and of his Christ, and he shall reign into the eons of the eons. (Revelation of John 11:15 [ABP])

To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations -- that one 'will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery' --just as I have received authority from my Father. (Revelation 2:26-27 [NIV])

Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? (1 Corinthians 6:2 [ESV])

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4 [ESV])

(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:5-6 [NIV])

 

[Raggedyman]

It is not what I think to be so, this is what the scriptures teach,

Yes scripture states clearly, I am aware that there will be a kingdom on earth
That doesn't mean we all won't go to heaven

My point being heaven is the relationship we have with God
Wherever God is that is heaven, God will be on earth, heaven I think is spiritual

I guess my question where is heaven needs to be qualified, what is heaven
The relationship we have with God is how I understand it

 

[cgaviria]

Yes scripture states clearly, I am aware that there will be a kingdom on earth
That doesn't mean we all won't go to heaven

My point being heaven is the relationship we have with God
Wherever God is that is heaven, God will be on earth, heaven I think is spiritual

I guess my question where is heaven needs to be qualified, what is heaven
The relationship we have with God

The elect will not go to heaven during the thousand year rulership on earth, nor in the new earth, as the New Jerusalem will descend from heaven unto the new earth,

I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. (Revelation 21:2-3[NIV])

As such, the elect are not appointed to go to heaven.

 

[Raggedyman]

The elect will not go to heaven during the thousand year rulership on earth, nor in the new earth, as the New Jerusalem will descend from heaven unto the new earth,


As such, the elect are not appointed to go to heaven.

It seems you don't understand my belief
The relationship we will have with God is heaven, it's a spiritual place not a physical place

 

[cgaviria]

It seems you don't understand my belief
The relationship we will have with God is heaven, it's a spiritual place not a physical place

Heaven is a literal and physical place, or where do you suppose Jesus Christ, who was resurrected into a new body that could be touched and seen,

See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” (Luke 24:39 [ESV])

is right now?

After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19 [NIV])

There are certainly many metaphors in scripture, but all these metaphors point to literal realities. Jesus Christ is literally in heaven, a literal place. And he will literally return, and be seen literally by all flesh, and setup his literal kingdom on earth, in which case the elect will literally rule with him on literal earth.

 

[Raggedyman]

Heaven is a literal and physical place, or where do you suppose Jesus Christ, who was resurrected into a new body that could be touched and seen,


is right now?


There are certainly many metaphors in scripture, but all these metaphors point to literal realities. Jesus Christ is literally in heaven, a literal place. And he will literally return, and be seen literally by all flesh, and setup his literal kingdom on earth, in which case the elect will literally rule with him on literal earth.

Good point...

 

[cgaviria]

Good point...

 

[sdowney717]

2 Corinthians 5New King James Version (NKJV)
Assurance of the Resurrection

5 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

I agree with the OP about the new heavens and new earth and the new earth being a place where God dwells, and where we will also dwell, the consistent truth is we will be present with the Lord wherever He is after we are absent from the body, we have a habitation eternal in the heavens....

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

 

[cgaviria]

2 Corinthians 5New King James Version (NKJV)
Assurance of the Resurrection

5 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

I agree with the OP about the new heavens and new earth and the new earth being a place where God dwells, and where we will also dwell, the consistent truth is we will be present with the Lord wherever He is after we are absent from the body, we have a habitation eternal in the heavens....

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

You are making the incorrect assumption that being absent in the body makes you immediately present with the Lord. For even Paul said this,

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 [ESV])

As such, the elect will become present with the Lord at his second coming, in which case those who were dead will be resurrected first, and then those who are still alive at his coming will be gathered together in the clouds, with them, to then meet the Lord in the air. Yet even so, for just as death is like sleep,

He said, “Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.” And they began laughing at Him. (Matthew 9:24 [NIV])

After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. (1 Corinthians 15:6 [NIV])

Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; light up my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death, (Psalm 13:3 [ESV])

And just as the moment of falling asleep to the moment of waking up feels quick, so is the moment of death to the moment of the resurrection that happens at the second coming of the Lord, even if thousands of years had passed, it will feel nearly instant. As such, although becoming absent in the body does not make you immediately present with the Lord in relation to time, death does make you immediately present with the Lord in relation to perception.

 

[sdowney717]

You are making the incorrect assumption that being absent in the body makes you immediately present with the Lord. For even Paul said this,



As such, the elect will become present with the Lord at his second coming, in which case those who were dead will be resurrected first, and then those who are still alive at his coming will be gathered together in the clouds, with them, to then meet the Lord in the air. Yet even so, for just as death is like sleep,





And just as the moment of falling asleep to the moment of waking up feels quick, so is the moment of death to the moment of the resurrection that happens at the second coming of the Lord, even if thousands of years had passed, it will feel nearly instant. As such, although becoming absent in the body does not make you immediately present with the Lord in relation to time, death does make you immediately present with the Lord in relation to perception.

That is not an incorrect assumption.
Paul in 2 Cor 5, speaks of the spirit going to be with the Lord, not the body which is resurrected afterwards.

In Hebrews 12, we have come 'to the spirits of just men made perfect,'
We are spiritually alive and when our bodies die, we go to be with the Lord to await the resurrection of the body LATER. Their is no 'soul sleep'.

The Glorious Company
18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things thanthat of Abel.

 

[cgaviria]

That is not an incorrect assumption.
Paul in 2 Cor 5, speaks of the spirit going to be with the Lord, not the body which is resurrected afterwards.

In Hebrews 12, we have come 'to the spirits of just men made perfect,'
We are spiritually alive and when our bodies die, we go to be with the Lord to await the resurrection of the body LATER. Their is no 'soul sleep'.

The Glorious Company
18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things thanthat of Abel.

The spirit of man is his breath of life, hence why after death the spirit returns to God who gave it,

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7 [KJV])

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (Genesis 6:3 [KJV])

And this is the same spirit that animals also have,

And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two by two of all flesh in which is the spirit of life. (Genesis 7:15 [JB2000])

And after death, it is the soul of man that goes to Sheol,

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going. (Ecclesiastes 9:10 [ESV])

For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption. (Psalm 16:10 [ESV])

Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed aboutthose who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. (1 Thessalonians 4:13 [NIV])

And those who are in Sheol sleep, because the dead have no thoughts, and are not conscious. I have a study on this here, http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-lake-of-fire-judgment.7971219/#post-70290891 . Even so, the scripture in Hebrews concerning the spirits of just men made perfect is referring to those who have been perfected on the earth, for anyone who receives the holy spirit becomes perfected. I have posted a study on this here, http://www.christianforums.com/threads/born-in-spirit-perfection-sanctification-sin-no-more.7971297/ .