Has holiness become a dirty word in our churches?

Llewelyn

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He did not wait for an answer. He gave it to me. It was in Romans 6. I had it memorized, for I knew the crux of our walking pleasing to Him was there, but what was it?

Its brother, actually. So hard on these forums. Probably that Gender thing in the avatar I've never paid any attention to.

Your testimony is similar to mine, although the lesson was learned earlier.

Thanks for clarifying. I never questioned my election because I have known since childhood that God had saved me. I still had to reckon myself dead to sin none the less. I have a great passion for Romans 6.

Thank you for clearing that up.
 
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Llewelyn

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that doesnt go againt anything Gideon is saying at all .
and holiness .. being set apart .. is also being set apart to God in every area of life and "behaviour is an area of life " -a priest in the temple was set apart for the work of the temple ..in that st apart state there was a standard of behaviour that had to be maintained .. so it is with us .

we are to "walk worthy " of the righteousness he has graciously clothed us in.. not go and live life purposefully dirtying them

as zechariah prophesied ...
-That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life-. luke 1. he does not set us free that we might continue in sin -for a person who continues in the practice of sin is not free from it but a slave to it and is not being saved but is ,in their sin ,perishing .

Thank you. I was not suggesting that Gideon was contradicting anything, I was just seeing his posts a little ambiguous and wanted clarification. There is a strange "holiness" that has crept into the church over the years that has disheartened me because I have seen the root of rebellion in it, though it poses itself as "new light". This "holiness" does not practise separation from the world and says we can never be free from sin. I disagree completely. Why must I be chained to sin when Christ has set me free?
 
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Alithis

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Thank you. I was not suggesting that Gideon was contradicting anything, I was just seeing his posts a little ambiguous and wanted clarification. There is a strange "holiness" that has crept into the church over the years that has disheartened me because I have seen the root of rebellion in it, though it poses itself as "new light". This "holiness" does not practise separation from the world and says we can never be free from sin. I disagree completely. Why must I be chained to sin when Christ has set me free?
ouhh youve got me figurativly dancing for joy.. :D
 
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Gideons300

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Thank you. I was not suggesting that Gideon was contradicting anything, I was just seeing his posts a little ambiguous and wanted clarification. There is a strange "holiness" that has crept into the church over the years that has disheartened me because I have seen the root of rebellion in it, though it poses itself as "new light". This "holiness" does not practise separation from the world and says we can never be free from sin. I disagree completely. Why must I be chained to sin when Christ has set me free?
I actually withheld mentioning sera ration from the world when ai responded to you because I worried you and other readers would see legalism in the answer. I would like to clarify how one can be in the world and yet separate from it though. Many feel to do so, it is back to touch not, taste not t, handle not Christianity. Far from it.

It means one's perspective is altered. We are no longer children of this world. When we walk in our new nature, we finally see that we are not citizens here at all. We are soujourners here... passers through. Politics, entertainment, work... these things change greatly in importance to us when we all of a sudden become mission minded,rather than ME minded. This life is nothing but a dressing room, and ultimately, we are to choose light or darkness. Satan has convinced us we can be saved and walk in both and still be in God's will for us. But the word is clear. We are to make our tree good, but the secret lies in how we see that accomplished, amen?

Sorry for the gender error, dear brother.

Blessings, Gideon
 
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Gideons300

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I actually withheld mentioning separation from the world when ai responded to you because I worried you and other readers would see legalism in the answer. I would like to clarify how one can be in the world and yet separate from it though. Many feel to do so, it is back to touch not, taste not t, handle not Christianity. Far from it.

It means one's perspective is altered. We are no longer children of this world. When we walk in our new nature, we finally see that we are not citizens here at all. We are soujourners here... passers through. Politics, entertainment, work... these things change greatly in importance to us when we all of a sudden become mission minded,rather than ME minded. This life is nothing but a dressing room, and ultimately, we are to choose light or darkness. Satan has convinced us we can be saved and walk in both and still be in God's will for us. But the word is clear. We are to make our tree good, but the secret lies in how we see that accomplished, amen?

Sorry for the gender error, dear brother.

Blessings, Gideon
 
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Alithis

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the only knpeledge we need be aware of is thet Jeus has set us free from the power of sin.. so we need not serve it any more .

some dont like that.. perhaps it is becaseu they prefer to sin and think it won't matter .. but thats a great delusion
 
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Si_monfaith

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There is no freedom from power of sin without accepting that Jesus made law dead-rom7:1-4. Becz power of sin remains revived in those who trust the law-rom7:9. Thinking that power of sin does not overcome while still trusting in law is the greatest delusion-rom6:14.
You are overcome by sin. Just be open with God.
the only knpeledge we need be aware of is thet Jeus has set us free from the power of sin.. so we need not serve it any more .

some dont like that.. perhaps it is becaseu they prefer to sin and think it won't matter .. but thats a great delusion
 
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Si_monfaith

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Thank you. I was not suggesting that Gideon was contradicting anything, I was just seeing his posts a little ambiguous and wanted clarification. There is a strange "holiness" that has crept into the church over the years that has disheartened me because I have seen the root of rebellion in it, though it poses itself as "new light". This "holiness" does not practise separation from the world and says we can never be free from sin. I disagree completely. Why must I be chained to sin when Christ has set me free?
The world knows that nudity is immoral. But God created man nude. But for eating the fruit the whole world Wud be nude by now. So separation from world on what basis? World trusts in law. But Christ gave his life to set us free from law-rom7:6.
 
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Alithis

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We are not sojourners but called to rule-gen1:28. We will again inherit this earth & rule with Christ in the Millenium. Jesus came to restore the rule that adam lost.
even then we sojourn .. for he will create a new heaven and a new earth
 
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Si_monfaith

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even then we sojourn .. for he will create a new heaven and a new earth
Firstly rule & enjoy in Christ the rule that he gives & thank him, for he gives joys which he has redeemed by paying his blood. Sojourner mentality takes the focus off Christ & shifts focus to the future.
 
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Trying to earn or repay Jesus' love by your holiness is impossible. Father accepts us not for us or our works but only for the Person & works of his Son. This is pure faith totally free from all traces of self-righteousness.
 
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Si_monfaith

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What wud people who wait for sermons on sin say about the love of God in creating man nude? Man was created to be nude. Pls remember this. See God's love rather than the moral law which eve chose & which brought untold misery to mankind by giving guilt & fear!
 
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Razare

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Man, this is a great topic!

When I became a Christian, I began listening to Joseph Prince, and I realized he was telling the truth. My church was a bit legalistic, though, and hadn't accepted grace yet. Then God sent a pastor to teach us about grace and there was many miracles in our church and our pastor changed directions and learned about grace from Andrew Wommack's teachings on Romans.

After I had been under grace a while, I realized I still wasn't living right (I'm still not there yet). And I began to question... "What about morality?" I was using grace as an excuse to ignore parts of scripture, "Oh, that's the law! I better ignore that!"

Then God led me into a new level of revelation. I tiptoed back into legalism, but in doing so, I learned why legalism is bad, but then also I learned how not to be scared of God's law or morality from the Bible.

The laws in the Bible are great. Let's say you or I have to start a government tomorrow. Well, the best place to look for those laws would be the Bible. We could even make those laws better than what the Jews had, by putting forgiveness and love as a concept in them.

"Do not murder" is a great law. It keeps society sane. But spiritually, if we examine the hearts of men since we've been born, most have had murder in their heart at least once... making them guilty of God's law.

But God's law vs. man's law are two different things. And in relationship with God, we can't establish our own holiness. We have to be given it by faith.

As for working toward a holy lifestyle, I have found it comes down to grace. You live more holy by God's grace, through knowledge of his word, believed in faith.

As soon as you try to be more holy by, "I'm going to do better!" ... what are you really doing? You're making an oath.

But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; - Matthew 5:34

God doesn't want you to have to live under that and be constantly tempted by the law to break it. He simply wants a "Yes" said in faith where we leave it all on his shoulders.

And so holiness and sanctification comes from God, through faith and revelation of his word. If you see that you're failing, "Doing better" wont achieve much usually unless you have developed a great degree of self discipline.

But my flesh doesn't have discipline. What discipline I have learned is from God's spirit not my flesh. I have things I believe in the spirit that I believe, and all sin is caused by a bad belief in my mind will and emotions. Change the belief, change the confession, and it will change the resulting action.

Faith is the victory that overcomes the world!!! - 1 John 5:4

So people who say you need to live holy are right. The apostles said it in scripture even. But most people in the modern church who say we need to live holy are lying to you by their intent. They are trying to sneak legalism back into your thinking, and bring you back into bondage to sin.

When I get into legalism, I sin 5 times as much, and it eventually just ends in a bunch of sinning, if I don't repent of legalism and focus on faith. (Romans 7:5)

And you see, when you get into grace, you end up wanting to live holy quite apart from fear. This is what I was doing after I had gotten into grace and started to wonder about morality. I wasn't afraid, I was just wondering, did God have something better for me? And then I learned I already had the better things of God, and those better things are manifest supernaturally by faith, not carnally through efforts. This is part of repentance from dead works (Hebrews 6:1) where by our righteousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6).

And I found as I was a new Christian, I believe having been exposed to some legalism, I became impatient about sanctification and holiness. I wanted to get my act all straightened out immediately and I did not want to wait for God to teach me what to believe in faith. But as much as I didn't focus on the faith aspect, and I focused on what I was going to do, I just went backwards. This going backwards is legalistic backsliding. If you return to the law, you fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).

I believe backslider born-again Christians who live in sin, are just operating under the law and that's why they live in sin. They're clearly free of sin and the law, but if they don't know that they're free of both of those things, they will certainly live under the law which makes them subject to sin (Romans 6:14).

But you see when that Christian comes back to church and believes in faith again, yes that will improve their life and get them out of sin... but it's not because they're making an effort of the flesh, but it's because they're receiving God's word again which sets them free. And while the legalistic thinker may want to focus on how they're living holy now, really, it's what God's word does. God produces holiness not us.

So I like God's law, but when the devil tries to bring it for me to follow, I rebuke him with a passion. I will not live under the law, I will live under grace, and I will do greater works than the law by love. If you aim for the law, you're setting your sights too low as a Christian. We were never meant to operate as though we were stiff-necked rebellious Israelites without faith, in the desert to whom the law was given. They all died in the desert too. That's the fruit of the law.

This is what recently really impacted me. A minister (a grace teacher even) I respect quoted me this verse: Leviticus 18:5 and said the law was good because people could "live by God's statues and judgement" so that the law was good in that it gave life. But I disagree with his interpretation entirely.

The life the law gives is not found in the law itself. The life of God's law is found in the death it produces. It so certainly condemns us to death and brings that death upon us so radically, that we cry out for a savior. And that savior is the life that the law produces. And God confirmed this to me when I read Romans 10:5

Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: "The person who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

And so any teacher who says you will live by God's law according to the OT, must be made aware that the law produces death and death only in man. Then when we realize this, we find eternal life itself in Christ, through the new birth. The law is good that it kills us. When we are crucified with Christ at the act of salvation, our old nature is crucified by God's law. God's law then is good because it kills what deserves death. And in that death we are raised from it to new life by faith.
 
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Gideons300

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Trying to earn or repay Jesus' love by your holiness is impossible. Father accepts us not for us or our works but only for the Person & works of his Son. This is pure faith totally free from all traces of self-righteousness.
Where does modern Christianity come up with such righteous sounding but totally unbiblical words? We are told it is our reasonable service to be living sacrifices for Him, and yet we try to turn such an amazing life into working for our salvation?

How have we fallen into such deep error? How have we drifted so far from lives where we center ourselves on the potter's wheel and walk as sojourners in this life? Is it not because we believe there is no victory over the world, the flesh and the devil possible at all? We do not see walking in true obedience as even remotely possible, let alone assured to us because we see it as something we must do, rather than something Christ gives us to put on so that He can then "cause us" to walk as victorious warriors.

His promises are sure, and it is by our believing those promises that we are thus changed into His likeness from glory to glory. Walking as living sacrifices, possessing our vessels in sanctification and honor, keeping our bodies under, resisting the devil.....these are not things we are called to do FOR Him, but through Him! Do we not see? He promises to do these things through us.....IF we yield ourselves totally and trust Him to follow through with what He has promised us with no wavering at all.

Faith in Him and who He has made us.....new creatures..... is the answer we seek, but until we ask the question......HOW do I walk truly pleasing to you as a living sacrifice?.......the answer will remain elusive. But praise God, tears speed up the process. It is time we learn to weep between the porch and the alter, begging our God....

"Let not the heathen rule over thy people any longer to bring them to reproach."

And when we do? The final cog will click into place, and the long lost religiously contented church, with no hunger for real godly natures, will awake and put on strength, and the world will be amazed at our transformation.

It is time we make ourselves ready. How? By admitting we really are called to be holy, and weep because without a miracle, we cannot be. It is only then that faith.... when it becomes our last resort... is finally seen as the real answer and we will finally be willing to agree with God that the old us is dead, not dying. That is the beginning our our victory, and it will be glorious.

The promised land awaits. But faith must overtake fear and doubt and unbelief, and they will not go willingly into the night. But it makes no difference. God is very patient and in all His children, our overcoming nature will become our possession. Guaranteed.

Blessings, dear brother.

Gideon
 
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Si_monfaith

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Where does modern Christianity come up with such righteous sounding but totally unbiblical words? We are told it is our reasonable service to be living sacrifices for Him, and yet we try to turn such an amazing life into working for our salvation?

How have we fallen into such deep error? How have we drifted so far from lives where we center ourselves on the potter's wheel and walk as sojourners in this life? Is it not because we believe there is no victory over the world, the flesh and the devil possible at all? We do not see walking in true obedience as even remotely possible, let alone assured to us because we see it as something we must do, rather than something Christ gives us to put on so that He can then "cause us" to walk as victorious warriors.

His promises are sure, and it is by our believing those promises that we are thus changed into His likeness from glory to glory. Walking as living sacrifices, possessing our vessels in sanctification and honor, keeping our bodies under, resisting the devil.....these are not things we are called to do FOR Him, but through Him! Do we not see? He promises to do these things through us.....IF we yield ourselves totally and trust Him to follow through with what He has promised us with no wavering at all.

Faith in Him and who He has made us.....new creatures..... is the answer we seek, but until we ask the question......HOW do I walk truly pleasing to you as a living sacrifice?.......the answer will remain elusive. But praise God, tears speed up the process. It is time we learn to weep between the porch and the alter, begging our God....

"Let not the heathen rule over thy people any longer to bring them to reproach."

And when we do? The final cog will click into place, and the long lost religiously contented church, with no hunger for real godly natures, will awake and put on strength, and the world will be amazed at our transformation.

It is time we make ourselves ready. How? By admitting we really are called to be holy, and weep because without a miracle, we cannot be. It is only then that faith.... when it becomes our last resort... is finally seen as the real answer and we will finally be willing to agree with God that the old us is dead, not dying. That is the beginning our our victory, and it will be glorious.

The promised land awaits. But faith must overtake fear and doubt and unbelief, and they will not go willingly into the night. But it makes no difference. God is very patient and in all His children, our overcoming nature will become our possession. Guaranteed.

Blessings, dear brother.

Gideon
Your life seems not to be Christ centered but your holiness centered.
Jesus is the only way to salvation from beginning till end as he is alpha & omega.
 
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