has anyone noticed

[nephilimiyr]

Paul also said just before that section,..

So the application then is spiritual, not material. Jesus said "His" flesh was food indeed, and "His" blood was drink indeed, so I want ensure I partake of His flesh and blood, not a mere religious activity that sidesteps the spiritual application and just goes through the motions.

Excellent post!

I don't know about anyone here in this thread, but I know how religious people think after growing up in a religious system. Most of them do end up being prideful because of their obedience to what they believe God has told them to obey. I don't know about festivals but I do know about holy days, rituals, and practises, and most people see their reiligious practises as getting God to favor them more, love them more, or to accept them more.

 

[ARBITER01]

Excellent post!

I don't know about anyone here in this thread, but I know how religious people think after growing up in a religious system. Most of them do end up being prideful because of their obedience to what they believe God has told them to obey. I don't know about festivals but I do know about holy days, rituals, and practises, and most people see their reiligious practises as getting God to favor them more, love them more, or to accept them more.

Thanks, and I agree.

To me so far, His flesh is the written word of GOD that cleanses the flesh when it is preached, and His blood is applied by The Holy Spirit for the cleansing of our spirits during our praise and worship.

There are symbolisms in the NT also, and if we do not seek to "correctly" understand them from The Lord, then we are stuck in the material just doing religious activities.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I think those who do it as you describe are practicing something very beautiful and meaningful and that it could very well greatly deepen a believers relationship with God.

Or, because of the person's performance they finally may feel they are worthy of such a relationship with God and so it deepens. They also may believe that they have to continue this performance or else God will not see them as being worthy anymore, or they simply won't feel worthy. The sad thing is they at first don't accept that once they have become born again they are seen in God's eyes as being worthy of this relationship, not because of anything they have done, accept by acting out in faith, but because God has done the work in them to make it possible for them to have become the children of God and is doing a good work in them by growing that which He has done in them. Not because of some festival or ritual that the person is performing.

What is the possible offense? That their worthiness depends on their performance, not what God has already done in them. The only performance we are required to do is exercise our faith.

For those who object...anything can be used for good or bad, including Scripture. Making rules against the keeping of a festival or a tradition from the heart is just as legalistic as making rules that require it. It is for freedom we have been made free.

Only a person who believes that there are rules would say such a thing, and I have not said anything about rules against practising festivals or rituals.

 

[Markus6]

Paul also said just before that section,..

So the application then is spiritual, not material. Jesus said "His" flesh was food indeed, and "His" blood was drink indeed, so I want ensure I partake of His flesh and blood, not a mere religious activity that sidesteps the spiritual application and just goes through the motions.

You have taken that verse out of context.

“But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you. Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.”
(1Corinthians 11:17-22 NAS95S)

They were not partaking in the Lord's supper because they were divided.

 

[gratefulgrace]

Just my 2 cents. I don't think there is anything wrong with learning about the festivals or even celebrating them occaisionally as they all foreshadow the work of Christ. I celebrated a Feast of Tabernacles a few years ago in a pageant setting. One year I was in the choir another I played a role as the bride. It was a lot of fun and helped me understand the word better. They were done completely as a way to show the revelation of Christs work in the believer not to turn us into Jews. It is also helpful to know a bit about the culture and customs of the time and what these celebrations meant to the people of Israel as it helps the scriptures become more meaningful. I don't know anyone who celebrates these to win favour with God. gg

 

[cherokeehippie]

When I was learning and celebrating the feasts...it wasn't to get into religiousity, legalism, etc...instead I really thought it was really cool because it was out of the churchy box and I saw a tribal native type cultural thing in Sukkot especially. Zechariah 14:16-17 says that the nations will come up to worship the LORD in Jerusalem at the Feast of Tabernacles. I can easily picture Native Americans, and all other peoples with their cultural forms of worship coming to Jerusalem worshipping Yeshua with hand drums, flutes, etc. To be honest, I was really excited and on cloud 9 after going to Israel and learning all of this...reading the prophets while in Israel FOr...I wasn't happy with churchianity. (I was in a baptist church at the time)...I realize that the cultural forms that Jesus grew up in was not traditional churchy pews, choir, etc.

 

[cherokeehippie]

LOL. Sharon...was it Ariel and Beit Kivod where this happened...in DFW area? If so, I might have been there!

I didn't know what horseradish was when I first had it..and found I loved it! Especially with meat!

I had a young Jewish friend whom I was trying to get to go back to church so I told him I would go with him if he would go - it was during the Passover Seder - I didn't know anything about Jewish law or the Passover Seder - so as we sat down to eat - I had taken a bite of something and there was horseradish on the plate - I took a bite of it - just as it was in my mouth - the leader said 'be careful - this is the real stuff' - too late.

My eyes watered, my nose run, I was almost choking and trying not to show it. Lesson learned - do some homework before going to functions you don't know anything about.

 

[ARBITER01]

You have taken that verse out of context.

“But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you. Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.”
(1Corinthians 11:17-22 NAS95S)

They were not partaking in the Lord's supper because they were divided.

I don't think you payed particular attention to this specific line you just posted,..

What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Paul was not telling them to not eat he was telling them to share.

Here is the Amplified version:
17But in what I instruct [you] next I do not commend [you], because when you meet together, it is not for the better but for the worse. 18For in the first place, when you assemble as a congregation, I hear that there are cliques (divisions and factions) among you; and I in part believe it,
19For doubtless there have to be factions or parties among you in order that they who are genuine and of approved fitness may become evident and plainly recognized among you.
20So when you gather for your meetings, it is not the supper instituted by the Lord that you eat,
21For in eating each one [hurries] to get his own supper first [not waiting for the poor], and one goes hungry while another gets drunk.
22What! Do you have no houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and mean to show contempt for it, while you humiliate those who are poor (have no homes and have brought no food)? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, [most certainly] I will not!


What was happening was that when they gathered together for the after service Oneg there were some who were able to bring a lot of food and some who were not able. Those who were able to bring food were concerned about filling his own plate first and not caring about those who had less or nothing due to their poorness. When it is said "what, don't you have your own houses to eat in?" he was speaking to the rich who were able to go home to a house where there was plenty of food so they did not need to be concerned with gorging themselves of food before those who had less could eat too. In putting it in other words he was saying: "since you have houses that you are able to regularly eat in should you not consider first your brothers who are not able to eat as regularly as you and allow them to eat before you go in and fill your plates up for yourself. If you are not able to get what you want on your plates now, you will be able to do so when you get home. YOU have houses where you can eat plenty, they do not"

 

[SharonL]

LOL. Sharon...was it Ariel and Beit Kivod where this happened...in DFW area? If so, I might have been there!

I didn't know what horseradish was when I first had it..and found I loved it! Especially with meat!

I don't remember the name of it - but it was in the Dallas area. It was very interesting. I think you were probably the one that gave me the picture of the service in Israel where the sky opened up on the man blowing the shoffer. I still have that picture.

 

[Tamara224]

To the OP: Yes, I have noticed more awareness in the Body of Christ about the Feasts and Holy Days. I do believe that it is most likely a move of the Spirit. I know that for my family it most certainly was inspired by the Holy Spirit. We celebrate Passover every year and every year the Holy Spirit makes His presence felt. It is a time of worship and fellowship and remembrance.

I've never understood why Christians are so set against it and why many accuse those who celebrate of being prideful.

Is it prideful for them to celebrate Easter or Christmas? Why is it okay to remember Christ's birth but not His sacrifice? What makes those traditions more holy or less likely to be prideful than mine?

 

[imperfectchristian]

Or, because of the person's performance they finally may feel they are worthy of such a relationship with God and so it deepens. They also may believe that they have to continue this performance or else God will not see them as being worthy anymore, or they simply won't feel worthy. The sad thing is they at first don't accept that once they have become born again they are seen in God's eyes as being worthy of this relationship, not because of anything they have done, accept by acting out in faith, but because God has done the work in them to make it possible for them to have become the children of God and is doing a good work in them by growing that which He has done in them. Not because of some festival or ritual that the person is performing.

Communion is a very good example of something that is meant to be done from the heart, not as a requirement (as oft as ye do it) but as an expression of love. It certainly has been turned into a ritual in many churches, some even saying it is required for salvation. So I am well aware of negative possibilites, but that still does not make it something to avoid just because people misinterpret it.

What is the possible offense? That their worthiness depends on their performance, not what God has already done in them. The only performance we are required to do is exercise our faith.

This is true but our faith is exercised through our expressions of love, both for God and for each other. Participating in these outward acts are originally meant to be expressions of love and faith.

Only a person who believes that there are rules would say such a thing, and I have not said anything about rules against practising festivals or rituals.

Surely you are not implying that I believe there are rules for us to follow. I just quoted from Scripture earlier that it is for freedom that we are free.

I was merely pointing out that to make rules against practices of customs and traditions can be just as much a rule as making them a requirement.

 

[ARBITER01]

Paul was not telling them to not eat he was telling them to share.

Here is the Amplified version:
17But in what I instruct [you] next I do not commend [you], because when you meet together, it is not for the better but for the worse. 18For in the first place, when you assemble as a congregation, I hear that there are cliques (divisions and factions) among you; and I in part believe it,
19For doubtless there have to be factions or parties among you in order that they who are genuine and of approved fitness may become evident and plainly recognized among you.
20So when you gather for your meetings, it is not the supper instituted by the Lord that you eat,
21For in eating each one [hurries] to get his own supper first [not waiting for the poor], and one goes hungry while another gets drunk.
22What! Do you have no houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and mean to show contempt for it, while you humiliate those who are poor (have no homes and have brought no food)? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, [most certainly] I will not!


What was happening was that when they gathered together for the after service Oneg there were some who were able to bring a lot of food and some who were not able. Those who were able to bring food were concerned about filling his own plate first and not caring about those who had less or nothing due to their poorness. When it is said "what, don't you have your own houses to eat in?" he was speaking to the rich who were able to go home to a house where there was plenty of food so they did not need to be concerned with gorging themselves of food before those who had less could eat too. In putting it in other words he was saying: "since you have houses that you are able to regularly eat in should you not consider first your brothers who are not able to eat as regularly as you and allow them to eat before you go in and fill your plates up for yourself. If you are not able to get what you want on your plates now, you will be able to do so when you get home. YOU have houses where you can eat plenty, they do not"

I'm sorry, but it is quite evident,..

1Co 11:20 Therefore when you assemble in the same place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper.

 

[Markus6]

Paul was not telling them to not eat he was telling them to share.

Here is the Amplified version:
17But in what I instruct [you] next I do not commend [you], because when you meet together, it is not for the better but for the worse. 18For in the first place, when you assemble as a congregation, I hear that there are cliques (divisions and factions) among you; and I in part believe it,
19For doubtless there have to be factions or parties among you in order that they who are genuine and of approved fitness may become evident and plainly recognized among you.
20So when you gather for your meetings, it is not the supper instituted by the Lord that you eat,
21For in eating each one [hurries] to get his own supper first [not waiting for the poor], and one goes hungry while another gets drunk.
22What! Do you have no houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and mean to show contempt for it, while you humiliate those who are poor (have no homes and have brought no food)? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, [most certainly] I will not!


What was happening was that when they gathered together for the after service Oneg there were some who were able to bring a lot of food and some who were not able. Those who were able to bring food were concerned about filling his own plate first and not caring about those who had less or nothing due to their poorness. When it is said "what, don't you have your own houses to eat in?" he was speaking to the rich who were able to go home to a house where there was plenty of food so they did not need to be concerned with gorging themselves of food before those who had less could eat too. In putting it in other words he was saying: "since you have houses that you are able to regularly eat in should you not consider first your brothers who are not able to eat as regularly as you and allow them to eat before you go in and fill your plates up for yourself. If you are not able to get what you want on your plates now, you will be able to do so when you get home. YOU have houses where you can eat plenty, they do not"

I'd add a bit more on to that. I think he was trying to emphasis the communal aspect of the meal. The Lord's supper is more than just assembling in the same place and eating. It is eating together. If they had just wanted to satisfy their hunger they might as well have stayed at home. To share in the body of Christ is to realise that we (together) are the body of Christ. I love the way the Church of England eucharist liturgy puts it:
"Though we are many we are one body because we all share in one bread."

I'm sorry, but it is quite evident,..

Why are you just posting the single verse again? I've already accused you of taking it out of context. I might be wrong but the only way you're going to prove that is by addressing the full passage, not ignoring it.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I'm sorry, but it is quite evident,..

...quite evident of what? That you've quoted only a sentence from a whole paragraph? How about I use the same technique from one of your posts...here goes:

I don't think

You said it, I just left out what else you said with it. As you see, quoting only a portion of a sentence or a paragraph totally changes it's meaning to what you want it to say.


Then, after you have explained, I could just simply re quote you and say,

I don't think

"I'm sorry, it is quite evident.

That would not be an acceptable way to debate your comments therefore, it is just as unacceptable to debate scripture in the same manner.

 

[ARBITER01]

...quite evident of what? That you've quoted only a sentence from a whole paragraph? How about I use the same technique from one of your posts...here goes:


You said it, I just left out what else you said with it. As you see, quoting only a portion of a sentence or a paragraph totally changes it's meaning to what you want it to say.


Then, after you have explained, I could just simply re quote you and say, "I'm sorry, it is quite evident.

That would not be an acceptable way to debate your comments therefore, it is just as unacceptable to debate scripture in the same manner.

I'm sorry, but I don't do things just for the sake of doing them, nor do I try to do a material thing thinking it will bring about a spiritual thing. The scripture is clear: "whenever you assemble" so Paul obviously is not referring to doing a material thing here.

My decision has already been made up on this years ago.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I'm sorry, but I don't do things just for the sake of doing them, nor do I try to do a material thing thinking it will being about a spiritual thing. The scripture is clear: "whenever you assemble" so Paul obviously is not referring to doing a material thing here.

My decision has already been made up on this years ago.

I'm sorry, you've totally lost me. What are you talking about? I did not say anything about you doing things just for the sake of doing them. None of us should do that. Do you believe the Bible is just a bunch of symbols? That nothing was reality?

I view the word "whenever" in that paragraph on the same level as "whenever you go to the bathroom". Not a when ever it seems like a fun thing to do. It's an assumption that "you will".

But if you do not want to do it then by all means don't do it. It is between you and God. He certainly does not want anything done for Him against your will.

 

[nephilimiyr]

[/size]

Communion is a very good example of something that is meant to be done from the heart, not as a requirement (as oft as ye do it) but as an expression of love. It certainly has been turned into a ritual in many churches, some even saying it is required for salvation. So I am well aware of negative possibilites, but that still does not make it something to avoid just because people misinterpret it.

Did I say it is something that we are to avoid? You keep trying to paint what I am saying as me making a rule against it but I have not and am not.

Like other things people do I see as unnecessary. It's how I explain my beliefs to Roman Catholics that I know, that many of the things Roman Catholics do that they believe God has ordered them to do is not ordered by him and are unnecessary. But it's an obedience to him that they believe must be done.

I have no problem with people who want to keep the festivals if they so chose, but not because they feel they have to and not because they believe God will love them more, think more highly of them, or accept them more. It's impossible for God to love us anymore than He already does and it's impossible for God to favor us and accept us more than He already does. That is my belief.

As for people believing they gain a deeper relationship with God because of the festivals they keep or the rituals they practise, it's all unnecessary. Performing anyone of these things doesn't have to be done to gain a deeper relationship with God. For some reason people believe they have to perform for God in order to have a deeper relationship with him, that is totally untrue. I wont dispute that it will happen, alls I'ma sayin is that it's not necessary.

This is true but our faith is exercised through our expressions of love, both for God and for each other. Participating in these outward acts are originally meant to be expressions of love and faith.

I can think of better ways but so be it. If you can't express your love for God without performing a ritual or observe a festival then go head, as long as that's the only reason for doing so.

Surely you are not implying that I believe there are rules for us to follow. I just quoted from Scripture earlier that it is for freedom that we are free.

I was merely pointing out that to make rules against practices of customs and traditions can be just as much a rule as making them a requirement.

Well, I saw you implying that I believe in rules, after all, you addressed your comment to all who object. I was mearly pointing out what you said to me. So no, I wasn't implying that you believe that there are rules, but you implied it to me.

 

[imperfectchristian]

Did I say it is something that we are to avoid? You keep trying to paint what I am saying as me making a rule against it but I have not and am not.

Like other things people do I see as unnecessary. It's how I explain my beliefs to Roman Catholics that I know, that many of the things Roman Catholics do that they believe God has ordered them to do is not ordered by him and are unnecessary. But it's an obedience to him that they believe must be done.

I have no problem with people who want to keep the festivals if they so chose, but not because they feel they have to and not because they believe God will love them more, think more highly of them, or accept them more. It's impossible for God to love us anymore than He already does and it's impossible for God to favor us and accept us more than He already does.

As for people believing they gain a deeper relationship with God because of the festivals they keep or the rituals they practise, it's all unnecessary. Performing anyone of these things doesn't have to be done to gain a deeper relationship with God. For some reason people believe they have to perform for God in order to have a deeper relationship with him, that is totally untrue. I wont dispute that it will happen, alls I'ma sayin is that it's not necessary.




I can think of better ways but so be it. If you can't express your love for God without performing a ritual or observe a festival then go head, as long as that's the only reason.




Well, I saw you implying that I believe in rules, after all, you addressed your comment to all who object. I was mearly pointing out what you said to me. So no, I wasn't implying that you believe that there are rules, but you implied it to me.

I think we are saying the same thing from different sides.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I think we are saying the same thing from different sides.

I hope we are, actually I guess we are, just in different ways.