I wish to make a fellowship post

[boughtwithaprice]

Dear Traditional Adventists, I wish to post in your forum for the following reasons.

I have been in debates and discussions with some of your members and I am impressed by the way you wish to stick to scripture. Your members do not appear to be swayed by any logic that does not include scripture. Your members Bob Ryan and Gary K and I have had some disagreements, but I have noticed that they keep the retorts scriptural.

I want to share some thoughts that I have recently come across that you may find interesting. Specifically, I want to discuss Genesis and the account that the world was
made in six days.

Recently, I have come across some data that show that it is more scientific to believe that Genesis is true as written, and the majority of the world is deceived to believe that it is myth or just made up. I grow tired of hearing that science disproves Genesis, and only people that believe it are religious nuts.

I do not believe this to be the case any longer, and I was wondering if you would like to discuss why I believe that the words of Genesis are more scientifically accurate than the
Materialist philosophies we hear today of an ancient universe and evolution.

Would you like to discuss it?

As we know, the Torah, was told to Moses by God Himself, and God cannot lie. That includes Genesis. Would you like to know a scientific explanation of how the world was made in six days, especially the mysterious first two days of creation?

I think that you will enjoy it. I know that I did, and I wanted to speak with others that hold to the words of scripture. I don’t want unfrutiful debates about theistic evolution or the “Gap theory” or that Genesis is just a story for children with no basis in science. Actually Genesis is more scientific. I would like to show you how.
If you will permit me.

I want to discuss only scripture and how it relates to science. I will answer questions about my Catholicity if you wish, but I will not engage in debate about SDA

I would merely like a scriptural discussion of science. Ironically this is the only forum where I could hope to have this discussion

 

[boughtwithaprice]

The first thing that I saw in my understanding is that the conception of the Universe is philosophical and not scientific. People that call themselves scientists believe that the Earth revolves around the Sun, but it cannot be proven observationally that the Earth is not stationary and the center of the Universe

Consider Romans 1

18- For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and injustice of those men that detain the truth of God in injustice 19 Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God, or given thanks; but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. 23 And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and of fourfooted beasts, and of creeping things. 24 Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves. 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.



I grew tired of hearing that science disproves Genesis and the Church hated that by persecuting Galileo. Then they begin to mock Genesis. They say that it is preposterous because the Bible says that light was created before the Sun, and there cannot be a day unless there is the Sun as that is how we measure time

What they fail to note was that Genesis was told to Moses directly by God, and God has no reason to lie. There is scientific explanation for Genesis. The darkness over the face of the deep. The firmament that separated the waters above from the waters below, and the Great light that existed before the Sun.

The Big Bang is a flawed theory, and an ancient universe where the Earth appears by chance becomes absurd.

Observationally, we can see the remnants of the Great light and the waters that were above on the second day. Water has been found on the Sun, not in the hottest part where is cannot exist but in Sun spots. We know that fusion occurs between hydrogen atoms, but water has oxygen. What could it be doing there?

There is more that I would like to discuss, but the bottom line is that Genesis is true. The Earth is stationary at the center of the universe, and the universe is young. If you glorify God as God you can see the wonder of creation. But if God is not glorified one believes in chance and to get the highly improbable events to have a chance to come about they invent unfathomable lengths of time.

Observationally we cannot show that Earth is moving and there is good reason to believe that it is not. It is only because scoffers believe that the Earth goes around the Sun that it does. It is not proved observationally even though we are told Galileo proved it. Not true.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi BoughtWithAPrice - (do you have a shorter-hand screen handle you would be ok with?)

I agree with you that science and God are in complete agreement since God created nature and science is the result of observations in nature.
I also agree that often times in today's world speculation in science is used to disprove some key statement in the Bible about who God is or what He has done.

Gen 1-2, and Ex 20:11 both say that God created the world and all life on it (and out Sun and moon) - in a literal 7 day week the same time frame as as the seven day week at Sinai in Ex 20. But for atheists there is no way that this all came about in 7 days all on its own. (of course we agree that it certainly did not happen "all on its own"). So there is where a lot of the differences start -- we insist that the Bible is true when it says God actually did it just as he said -- while the atheist says "no way... not possible in my world".

=================

As for relative motion and observation -- Einstein admits that you can describe motion from the frame of reference of an observer if you account for the inertial frame of reference of the observer. It is not too surprising then that the Bible describes motion of objects in space from the frame of reference - of an observer on Earth.

Easiest way to see that the universe is not revolving around the Earth - is that as viewed from the moon -- the earth and all the universe revolves around the moon every 28 earth days. But for an observer on Earth they revolve around the Earth every day. The only way both can be correct is if both the moon and the earth are spinning.

Also - none of our GPS systems work as if the Earth was not spinning. Satellites and space stations etc - can see that the earth is spinning.

Simple experimental evidence that Earth revolves around Sun​

The answer is ironic: Without good instruments, there is no evidence. The people who thought that the Sun went around the Earth were perfectly correct as far as the actual evidence went until the early 1700s and mid-1800s when two lines of evidence opened up that showed that the Earth moved.

Aberration of Starlight​

Wikipedia has a correct but over-complicated explanation. The easiest way to think about it is to imagine yourself at a stop sign in a car in the rain, and the rain is falling straight down. When you start moving, the rain's apparent direction of fall changes so that it appears to be falling from ahead of you and slanting down towards you. That's aberration.

In the early 1700s, the stars were discovered to be shifting position, and in 1727, James Bradley correctly identified it as abberation of starlight due to the motion of the Earth around the Sun. (For any star in the ecliptic, the Earth is moving towards it at some time of the year and away from it six months later.)

Parallax​

Wikipedia's article on parallax is better, and I refer you to it for details. Basically, if you hold your finger up before you and look at it with your left eye closed, and then with your right eye closed, it appears to jump with respect to the background -- the wall beyond or the trees outside or whatever. Switch back and forth between your eyes quickly to see it clearly.

As the Earth circles around the Sun, nearby stars also appear to shift their position relative to the more distant stars. A key point here is that there were good scientific reasons to suppose that the stars were much smaller than the Sun. Seen through a telescope, stars showed disks and if they were like the Sun, their distance could be deduced from those disks. And they were close enough that if the Earth really went around the Sun, parallax should have been observed. But it wasn't and the lack of any noticeable parallax was a strong empirical argument against Heliocentric theories.

In reality of course parallax exists, but the parallax of all stars is small, because they are much further away than was estimated from their disks. (The visible disks were actually diffraction disks and not true disks at all -- but it was not until nearly a century later that diffraction began to be understood.) Friedrich Bessel first measure the real parallax of a star in 1838.

================================

Legal code in the Bible says God created the Life on Earth, the Sun and the moon in 7 literal days.

Since says the starts, the sun , the earth are all in motion.

But no legal code in the Bible says that the earth is not in orbit or that the solar system does not exist or that the starts are not in motion.

The language of Ps 104 (and other places) is highly poetic, for example:

• V3a - laying the beams of His chambers in the waters above
• V3b - making the clouds His chariot, walking on the wings of the wind
• V4 - He makes the winds His messengers, flames of fire His servants.
• V28 - When You give it [food] to them [creatures], they gather it up; when You open Your hand, they are satisfied with good things.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Hi Bod, you can call me bought or bwap. I am not offended.

The thing that gets me is that the Bible is immediately dismissed and myth and fable, although it was written and evolutionary theories existed in ancient times.

When we use our minds to look at Genesis we see that there was no light before God created it, yet He says there was water. Darkness was on the face of the deep. No light gives us absolute zero, so the water was Ice. How deep was the deep?

We can estimate that since it happened in one day, the deep was a giant sphere. Calculating the speed of light, in order for light to reach the interior and start to melt the ice. The sphere of the deep was probably 6 billion miles deep with a 12 billion mile diameter. The great light would have had to be 10,000 times the size of the sun to melt that ice on day one.

The firmament that God formed on day two was most likely hydrogen, as hydrogen is a metal at extreme pressure such as would be generated by 6 billion miles of water, but as the Great light continued to work on the water to turn it to steam, the pressure dissipated and the universe expanded and the firmament became no longer metal but as smoke.
Scientists tell us today that space is a vacuum, but is it empty ? Quantum mechanics seems to say that it is not. Just as the atmosphere consists of air that we cannot see, space consists of particles that we cannot see. Modern science tells us that there are subatomic particles. There is not just atoms and nothing

Hydrogen is the most abundant element and we are finding water all over the place even on Pluto and the Sun. Sounds more consistent with Genesis than some singularity that exploded and randomly produced Earth.

God divided the waters above from the waters below. The natural man cannot see it because He refuses to believe in God or glorify Him as God

Theistic evolution is absurd, as that just says yeah we believe in God, but He doesn’t do much. Our creation created itself. I regret that I ever entertained theistic evolution

 

[Gary K]

Hi Bod, you can call me bought or bwap. I am not offended.

The thing that gets me is that the Bible is immediately dismissed and myth and fable, although it was written and evolutionary theories existed in ancient times.

When we use our minds to look at Genesis we see that there was no light before God created it, yet He says there was water. Darkness was on the face of the deep. No light gives us absolute zero, so the water was Ice. How deep was the deep?

We can estimate that since it happened in one day, the deep was a giant sphere. Calculating the speed of light, in order for light to reach the interior and start to melt the ice. The sphere of the deep was probably 6 billion miles deep with a 12 billion mile diameter. The great light would have had to be 10,000 times the size of the sun to melt that ice on day one.

The firmament that God formed on day two was most likely hydrogen, as hydrogen is a metal at extreme pressure such as would be generated by 6 billion miles of water, but as the Great light continued to work on the water to turn it to steam, the pressure dissipated and the universe expanded and the firmament became no longer metal but as smoke.
Scientists tell us today that space is a vacuum, but is it empty ? Quantum mechanics seems to say that it is not. Just as the atmosphere consists of air that we cannot see, space consists of particles that we cannot see. Modern science tells us that there are subatomic particles. There is not just atoms and nothing

Hydrogen is the most abundant element and we are finding water all over the place even on Pluto and the Sun. Sounds more consistent with Genesis than some singularity that exploded and randomly produced Earth.

God divided the waters above from the waters below. The natural man cannot see it because He refuses to believe in God or glorify Him as God

Theistic evolution is absurd, as that just says yeah we believe in God, but He doesn’t do much. Our creation created itself. I regret that I ever entertained theistic evolution

Good to see you here. I'd have answered earlier bu I just now noticed your posts.

The complete debate, in my view, stems from different world views that cannot and will not ever mesh. One is devil inspired and the other is God inspired so they will always be in opposition to each other.

What's really interesting to me is that Karl Marx, Charles Darwin and Ellen White were all contemporaries. Which means, to me, that the devil always has deceptions prepared ahead of time that counterfeit God's message. Marx's message was trust government instead of God to take care of you. and Darwin's message was to attack the entire reason God is the only one who has the right to give us moral rules to live by. Ellen White's message was to trust God completely.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Good to see you here. I'd have answered earlier bu I just now noticed your posts.

The complete debate, in my view, stems from different world views that cannot and will not ever mesh. One is devil inspired and the other is God inspired so they will always be in opposition to each other.

What's really interesting to me is that Karl Marx, Charles Darwin and Ellen White were all contemporaries. Which means, to me, that the devil always has deceptions prepared ahead of time that counterfeit God's message. Marx's message was trust government instead of God to take care of you. and Darwin's message was to attack the entire reason God is the only one who has the right to give us moral rules to live by. Ellen White's message was to trust God completely.

The devil does counterfeit, deny and deceive. He denies that God made the world in six days, gives the word counterfeit science to back up his claims and ridicules the Church for believing God. I even had one man accuse me of idolatry because I would not bow to his teaching on evolution and preferred the words of God on creation.

When you look at Genesis, it gives the most stable scientific framework for the creation of the world and has not been refuted. It has been ridiculed and poo poo ed, which is Satan’s tactic, when he wants to lead souls from the truth. Give them public embarrassment, and they will stop promoting creation.

The truth is that God creates the world in six days, because He said He did. God cannot lie and He told Moses about creation and the law on Mt Sinai.

Scientifically we see that Earth was started as a ball of ice about 6 billion miles in diameter. Darkness was over the face of the deep, no light, that means temperature was absolute zero, water at absolute zero is ice. The great light created on day one was a giant sphere about 10,000 times the size of the sun in order to melt that ice. The great light circled in 24 hr cycle. Evening first then morning day one.

We are told these days that Earth revolves around the Sun, but that cannot be proven by observation, which is all we have. Galileo proved that Venus revolves around the Sun and tried to say that his work proves Earth does as well, but that is not the case.
In science, we have plenty of evidence that Earth’s rotation would vary or at least decay if it were indeed 4 billion years old. Earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and tsunamis would have dotted earth to slow down a little, but one day has been consistent since creation. That implies that the rotation comes from outside Earth, not the earth itself.

We can also see that on the second day God create a firmament to separate the waters on day 2. Why don’t we see that firmament today? We do, but it has been dissipated. How? What was it originally made from? Well if the deep was water with a size of 6 billion mile diameter, we have extremely high pressure toward the center. About six billion miles is able to make hydrogen a metal at room temperature, and as the great light continued to heat the waters above, they dissipated as did the metallic hydrogen on day 2 and became the outer space we see today. Hydrogen is the most common element in space, and water is found everywhere including on Pluto and on the surface of the Sun.

The sun would have been no where hot enough to melt a 6 billion mile diameter ice ball, so it was not needed until day 4 when the great light was dissipating. The great light is not longer a sphere but can still be seen today in the observed universe. When telescope look at space with the stars and the Sun, then subtracts all of the light coming from them. A luminous glow is still observed in the cosmos. Modern science cannot explain it, but we know that it is remnants of the great light from day one of creation.

Space is thought to be a vacuum by modern science but the study of quantum mechanics makes that assessment impossible. In the material universe, “nothing” does not exist, and if there were nothing between Earth and the Sun, we would be touching. Outer space has no air? But it is not nothing. Quantum mechanics has caused us to revisit an old theory Einstein once thought he disproved by special relativity, which is the cosmic ether. He revisited it in his General relativity theory, but that was discarded to give us “space as a vacuum” and the Big Bang theory.
Neither of which can be observed, and the vacuum of space with the big bang become more absurd the more we study them.

Big bang says light created first, (who is the angel of light and always wants to be first ?), God said the earth was created first and light was used in its development, so it was not needed until morning of the first day.

The Hebrew word for heavens is shamayim, which can mean out of water, but certainly does not mean out of light.

We know God formed the heavens out of water because He said He did and our observations give us no reason to doubt. It is a philosophical difference that puts modern science at odds with the Bible, not scientific observation itself, when we analyze the data through the light of scripture, we can see the truth.

2 Thessalonians tells us that they love not the truth, so God sends them error, so that they may believe lying lest the repent. People will laugh at you and deny deny deny that creation is scientifically valid, even though it is. I have been llcalled an idolator for believing creation. That is a laugh. How can one that believes the written word of God be an idolator?

I have not know this all my life. I have believed that God has the power to create in six days but Idid not know how. I am amazed now that I have discovered a scientifically valid explanation for Genesis and even Genesis is more scientifically consistent with the observable universe than the distortions taught by “modern science”

The sky is the face of the firmament, the Earth is still and not moving. The Glory of God is all around. That is awe inspiring

 

[Gary K]

The devil does counterfeit, deny and deceive. He denies that God made the world in six days, gives the word counterfeit science to back up his claims and ridicules the Church for believing God. I even had one man accuse me of idolatry because I would not bow to his teaching on evolution and preferred the words of God on creation.

When you look at Genesis, it gives the most stable scientific framework for the creation of the world and has not been refuted. It has been ridiculed and poo poo ed, which is Satan’s tactic, when he wants to lead souls from the truth. Give them public embarrassment, and they will stop promoting creation.

The truth is that God creates the world in six days, because He said He did. God cannot lie and He told Moses about creation and the law on Mt Sinai.

Scientifically we see that Earth was started as a ball of ice about 6 billion miles in diameter. Darkness was over the face of the deep, no light, that means temperature was absolute zero, water at absolute zero is ice. The great light created on day one was a giant sphere about 10,000 times the size of the sun in order to melt that ice. The great light circled in 24 hr cycle. Evening first then morning day one.

We are told these days that Earth revolves around the Sun, but that cannot be proven by observation, which is all we have. Galileo proved that Venus revolves around the Sun and tried to say that his work proves Earth does as well, but that is not the case.
In science, we have plenty of evidence that Earth’s rotation would vary or at least decay if it were indeed 4 billion years old. Earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and tsunamis would have dotted earth to slow down a little, but one day has been consistent since creation. That implies that the rotation comes from outside Earth, not the earth itself.

We can also see that on the second day God create a firmament to separate the waters on day 2. Why don’t we see that firmament today? We do, but it has been dissipated. How? What was it originally made from? Well if the deep was water with a size of 6 billion mile diameter, we have extremely high pressure toward the center. About six billion miles is able to make hydrogen a metal at room temperature, and as the great light continued to heat the waters above, they dissipated as did the metallic hydrogen on day 2 and became the outer space we see today. Hydrogen is the most common element in space, and water is found everywhere including on Pluto and on the surface of the Sun.

The sun would have been no where hot enough to melt a 6 billion mile diameter ice ball, so it was not needed until day 4 when the great light was dissipating. The great light is not longer a sphere but can still be seen today in the observed universe. When telescope look at space with the stars and the Sun, then subtracts all of the light coming from them. A luminous glow is still observed in the cosmos. Modern science cannot explain it, but we know that it is remnants of the great light from day one of creation.

Space is thought to be a vacuum by modern science but the study of quantum mechanics makes that assessment impossible. In the material universe, “nothing” does not exist, and if there were nothing between Earth and the Sun, we would be touching. Outer space has no air? But it is not nothing. Quantum mechanics has caused us to revisit an old theory Einstein once thought he disproved by special relativity, which is the cosmic ether. He revisited it in his General relativity theory, but that was discarded to give us “space as a vacuum” and the Big Bang theory.
Neither of which can be observed, and the vacuum of space with the big bang become more absurd the more we study them.

Big bang says light created first, (who is the angel of light and always wants to be first ?), God said the earth was created first and light was used in its development, so it was not needed until morning of the first day.

The Hebrew word for heavens is shamayim, which can mean out of water, but certainly does not mean out of light.

We know God formed the heavens out of water because He said He did and our observations give us no reason to doubt. It is a philosophical difference that puts modern science at odds with the Bible, not scientific observation itself, when we analyze the data through the light of scripture, we can see the truth.

2 Thessalonians tells us that they love not the truth, so God sends them error, so that they may believe lying lest the repent. People will laugh at you and deny deny deny that creation is scientifically valid, even though it is. I have been llcalled an idolator for believing creation. That is a laugh. How can one that believes the written word of God be an idolator?

I have not know this all my life. I have believed that God has the power to create in six days but Idid not know how. I am amazed now that I have discovered a scientifically valid explanation for Genesis and even Genesis is more scientifically consistent with the observable universe than the distortions taught by “modern science”

The sky is the face of the firmament, the Earth is still and not moving. The Glory of God is all around. That is awe inspiring

I would disagree with a lot of what you said. I see no scriptural evidence for the earth being 6,000,000 million miles in diameter.

I also see no evidence that the earth was on huge chunk of ice. These two things are where science and I part ways.

The Hebrew word translated deep means the following.

[*StrongsHebrew*]
8415
תּהם תּהום
tehôm tehôm {teh-home'} teh-home'
(Usually feminine) from H1949; an abyss (as a surging mass of {water}) especially the deep (the main sea or the subterranean water supply): - deep ({place}) depth.

God is not not bound by the laws of physics as we humans understand them.

Daniel 9: 21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Think about this. Gabriel flew from heaven, which I understand to be from the intense light of God's throne in the massive opening in Orion, to earth in less time that it takes to read his prayer. That's what Daniel called swiftly. That is far faster than the speed of light.

So science and I part in quite a number of ways. I'll take the word of scripture over science any day.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I would disagree with a lot of what you said. I see no scriptural evidence for the earth being 6,000,000 million miles in diameter.

I also see no evidence that the earth was on huge chunk of ice. These two things are where science and I part ways.

The Hebrew word translated deep means the following.

[*StrongsHebrew*]
8415
תּהם תּהום
tehôm tehôm {teh-home'} teh-home'
(Usually feminine) from H1949; an abyss (as a surging mass of {water}) especially the deep (the main sea or the subterranean water supply): - deep ({place}) depth.

God is not not bound by the laws of physics as we humans understand them.

Daniel 9: 21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Think about this. Gabriel flew from heaven, which I understand to be from the intense light of God's throne in the massive opening in Orion, to earth in less time that it takes to read his prayer. That's what Daniel called swiftly. That is far faster than the speed of light.

So science and I part in quite a number of ways. I'll take the word of scripture over science any day.

The spirit world is not bound by the laws of nature. God is above nature else He would not be God. Genesis talks about God’s creation of nature, and we can look at it according to natural laws, and look to see if what we observe today could align with how God told us He did it

We have In beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. In Hebrew Mayim and Shamayim.
Water and out of water. Darkness was over the face of the deep and the Spirit of God moved on the waters.

Scientifically we know darkness is no light. No light, no heat. If there is water and no light and no heat it naturally exists as ice.

We estimate the size of the ice by knowing the speed of light through ice and the timing that God gives us in His word. We estimate that the great light of the first day was shining on the earth for 12 hrs, as God says evening and morning the first day. We can estimate that since the speed of light through ice from surface to core of the ice would travel 6 billion miles, the diameter of the sphere would be 12 billion miles, so the great light would have to have been a sphere 10,000 times the size of the sun on the first day in order to melt a sphere of ice that size.

This is only deduced by what the word of God says and does not depart from it. We are attempting to come to a natural understanding of what God did, so we can look for evidence of it in the natural world today. In no way is my thinking to limit God to the natural world, during the first six days of creation, God is still active and directs the creation by His omnipotent will. He created the Earth out of nothing. Ex nihilo. Only God can do that. Once he created it, he still formed it by His miraculous power as a master craftsman. He is the Master Craftsman, as everything in the world was formed by Him. We only want to make observations that lead us to wonder at His majesty. Worldly science tries to distract us from God and manipulate our minds away from Him. Our contention is that we can use the same data and show others that God did what He said he did. Worldly science does not rule out God, they just refuse to look, and are left ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth

 

[Gary K]

The spirit world is not bound by the laws of nature. God is above nature else He would not be God. Genesis talks about God’s creation of nature, and we can look at it according to natural laws, and look to see if what we observe today could align with how God told us He did it

We have In beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. In Hebrew Mayim and Shamayim.
Water and out of water. Darkness was over the face of the deep and the Spirit of God moved on the waters.

Scientifically we know darkness is no light. No light, no heat. If there is water and no light and no heat it naturally exists as ice.

We estimate the size of the ice by knowing the speed of light through ice and the timing that God gives us in His word. We estimate that the great light of the first day was shining on the earth for 12 hrs, as God says evening and morning the first day. We can estimate that since the speed of light through ice from surface to core of the ice would travel 6 billion miles, the diameter of the sphere would be 12 billion miles, so the great light would have to have been a sphere 10,000 times the size of the sun on the first day in order to melt a sphere of ice that size.

This is only deduced by what the word of God says and does not depart from it. We are attempting to come to a natural understanding of what God did, so we can look for evidence of it in the natural world today. In no way is my thinking to limit God to the natural world, during the first six days of creation, God is still active and directs the creation by His omnipotent will. He created the Earth out of nothing. Ex nihilo. Only God can do that. Once he created it, he still formed it by His miraculous power as a master craftsman. He is the Master Craftsman, as everything in the world was formed by Him. We only want to make observations that lead us to wonder at His majesty. Worldly science tries to distract us from God and manipulate our minds away from Him. Our contention is that we can use the same data and show others that God did what He said he did. Worldly science does not rule out God, they just refuse to look, and are left ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth

So what happened to those billions of miles of water? Scripture said the Spirit moved upon a surging mass of water which included the water under the crust of the earth. Like I said, this is where science and I part ways.

 

[Gary K]

I learned an interesting thing from answers in Genesis the other day. Evolutionists tell us that asteroids killed off the dinosaurs, but they say the size of the asteroid was 2.5 miles across.

To me it tells of the incredible force created when the voice of God broke up the fountains of the deep at the beginning of the flood. It threw a massive piece stone high enough into the atmosphere that it created a crater miles across when it fell back to earth. That is far more powerful than any hydrogen bomb humanity has created.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

The billions of miles of water were dissipated by the great light of the first day. They did not come from the Earth as the Earth was without form and void.

God created the Earth in the core of the ice ball, and on the second day He formed the firmament to separate the waters above from the waters below. We can deduce that the firmament was most likely made of hydrogen as hydrogen behaves as a metal at extremely high pressure, such as would exist if this firmament was holding up billions of miles of water.

As the great light continued to heat the water on the second day, it would turn from liquid to gas. He used the waters above to form the heavens, which we come to know as the second Heaven. The first Heaven is the atmosphere where birds fly, and is the face of the firmament. The third Heaven is where Paul visited and it is beyond space and time, where God dwells in the beatific vision. God is of course omnipresent, but the beatific vision is beheld in the third heaven

According to Genesis, God did not form the Earth until the third day when he caused the waters below to take the shape of dry land and seas.

The great light was dissipating, as was the firmament and the waters above. One the fourth day, God formed the Sun, moon and stars and everything we see in the night sky today. Astronomers have proved that the great light still exists, but their carnal mind cannot comprehend it, they just say that when we subtract our all the light from the sun and stars, the universe still has a glow from an unknown source. Scientists have found water on the Sun, Pluto and mars, I believe that I read there may be water on the moon.

As the great light heated the waters above, they turned to steam and the pressure on the firmament decreased, so the metallic hydrogen also turned to gas. We know hydrogen to be the most abundant element in the universe and the sun and stars work by hydrogen fusion. God formed the Sun and stars on the fourth day out of this hydrogen.
Modern scientists say stars are formed by hydrogen gas clouds collapsing on themselves. That does not align with the current laws of nature and they cannot see the Sun and Stars as God’s handiwork

Modern science also has the thinking that the Earth revolves around the Sun. That cannot be proved observationally. They cite Galileo, but fail to note that Galileo showed that Venus revolved around the Sun and extrapolated it to Earth
There is no observation that shows the earth is moving at all, and plenty of evidence that the Earth is motionless at the center as of the universe, but that is rejected on philosophical grounds, not by direct observational science

I believe that the Earth is a lot younger than proclaimed by natural science, and the universe is a lot smaller than the 13.5 billion light year diameter we are told that it is

Genesis is not a myth, but how God told Moses directly how the heavens and Earth were formed
Genesis is more scientifically sound than the proposals we hear from materialism. Men reject God, so they can’t see the truth in Genesis

 

[Gary K]

The billions of miles of water were dissipated by the great light of the first day. They did not come from the Earth as the Earth was without form and void.

God created the Earth in the core of the ice ball, and on the second day He formed the firmament to separate the waters above from the waters below. We can deduce that the firmament was most likely made of hydrogen as hydrogen behaves as a metal at extremely high pressure, such as would exist if this firmament was holding up billions of miles of water.

As the great light continued to heat the water on the second day, it would turn from liquid to gas. He used the waters above to form the heavens, which we come to know as the second Heaven. The first Heaven is the atmosphere where birds fly, and is the face of the firmament. The third Heaven is where Paul visited and it is beyond space and time, where God dwells in the beatific vision. God is of course omnipresent, but the beatific vision is beheld in the third heaven

According to Genesis, God did not form the Earth until the third day when he caused the waters below to take the shape of dry land and seas.

The great light was dissipating, as was the firmament and the waters above. One the fourth day, God formed the Sun, moon and stars and everything we see in the night sky today. Astronomers have proved that the great light still exists, but their carnal mind cannot comprehend it, they just say that when we subtract our all the light from the sun and stars, the universe still has a glow from an unknown source. Scientists have found water on the Sun, Pluto and mars, I believe that I read there may be water on the moon.

As the great light heated the waters above, they turned to steam and the pressure on the firmament decreased, so the metallic hydrogen also turned to gas. We know hydrogen to be the most abundant element in the universe and the sun and stars work by hydrogen fusion. God formed the Sun and stars on the fourth day out of this hydrogen.
Modern scientists say stars are formed by hydrogen gas clouds collapsing on themselves. That does not align with the current laws of nature and they cannot see the Sun and Stars as God’s handiwork

Modern science also has the thinking that the Earth revolves around the Sun. That cannot be proved observationally. They cite Galileo, but fail to note that Galileo showed that Venus revolved around the Sun and extrapolated it to Earth
There is no observation that shows the earth is moving at all, and plenty of evidence that the Earth is motionless at the center as of the universe, but that is rejected on philosophical grounds, not by direct observational science

I believe that the Earth is a lot younger than proclaimed by natural science, and the universe is a lot smaller than the 13.5 billion light year diameter we are told that it is

Genesis is not a myth, but how God told Moses directly how the heavens and Earth were formed
Genesis is more scientifically sound than the proposals we hear from materialism. Men reject God, so they can’t see the truth in Genesis

I don't buy it that billions of miles of ice just disappeared with no trace in 24 hours. You still haven't explained away the fact that the Spirit of God hovered over the surging waters. Ice is not surging water. It is a solid.


Here is something that is much more in line with scripture. God spoke the entire earth into existence. There are polonium halos found in granite. Evolutionists tell us it took millions of years to cool down and palonium has a half life of 138 days so it's impossible for the halos to have come from that scenario.

Evidence for Earth's Instant Creation - Polonium Halos in Granite and Coal - Earth Science Associates

Earth Science Associates, ESA, conducts scientific research, publishes books and produces videos showing evidence for the young age of the earth and its instant creation in support of the Bible's Genesis record of creation. Scientist Robert V. Gentry has shown that polonium halos...

www.halos.com

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Genesis says the water was there first and God did not form the Earth until the third day

I agree with the polonium rings. There was an instantaneous creation. Water first, then the great light. Evening and morning one day. The second day He formed the firmament to divide the waters above from the waters below. The third day He formed the Earth in the core of the sphere.
The Earth is stationary. The heavens move around us in a precise 24 hr cycle. That is the Spirit moving on the waters. Genesis gives the order of creation.

 

[Gary K]

Genesis says the water was there first and God did not form the Earth until the third day

I agree with the polonium rings. There was an instantaneous creation. Water first, then the great light. Evening and morning one day. The second day He formed the firmament to divide the waters above from the waters below. The third day He formed the Earth in the core of the sphere.
The Earth is stationary. The heavens move around us in a precise 24 hr cycle. That is the Spirit moving on the waters. Genesis gives the order of creation.

I find your reasoning very odd. God created the sun and moon inside the ice ball surrounding the earth? How was it possible that they would be immediately visible?

Ice is a solid. You keep on ignoring what scripture says.

I'm sorry but you seem to worship a God who is much smaller than evolutionists think the universe is. When the Hubble telescope was finally put into operation the size of universe for evolutionists expanded massively. When the James Webb telescope was put into operation evolutionists say they have to rethink how solar systems and galaxies are formed because the James Webb telescope allows them to see so much further. And you want to limit God to less ability and power than what evolutionists can see exists?

God has always existed. He goes back in time an infinite amount of time. God tells us to go to the ant thou sluggard, consider his ways and be wise. Do you think God is a hypocrite who tells us one thing and practices something else? He's been busy creating the universe for an eternity and you think He hasn't created as much in that eternity as humanity can see? I'm sorry, but that is an infinitely smaller God than the Bible portrays.

 

[Gary K]

Also, I have to address this also.

The third day God said let the dry land appear. You admit the earth already existed and then turn around and declare God didn't create the earth until the third day?

It seems to me you have some serious dichotomies in your thinking. An infinite God that isn't infinite? You seem to have brought God down to a level you can imagine. I can't imagine how God has done everything He's done, but I accept it by faith as God is infinite and I am finite. However smart I am He is infinitely smarter. He is infinitely smarter than the smartest human who has ever lived, Me? I was I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[Gary K]

If you believe the earth was created instantaneously during the creation week, when did it have time to build up 6 billion miles of ice? It seems to me the more we talk about this the further your beliefs get from scripture.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I just read what the Scripture says, Gary. It is not limiting God, but taking Him at His word.
Scripture says that there was water first and no light, and the Spirit moved upon the waters. Light was created half way through the first day, as scripture says evening and morning, the first day. The second day the firmament was formed to divide the waters above from the waters below. The third day the waters below were gathered into one place and dry land appeared. That was the Earth being formed on the third day. Plants were also created on the third day. On the fourth day the firmament was sufficiently spread out by the Spirit of God and the great light, that is when God created the Sun, Moon, and stars to divide night and day and to keep seasons. The fifth day God made the fish and whales and birds. The sixth day He made land creatures and man. The seventh day He rested.

The heavens move around the Earth in a 24 hr cycle. The Earth does not orbit the Sun, the Earth is stationary. Galileo did not show that the Earth orbits the Sun, as that cannot be proven observationally. Galileo showed that Venus orbited the Sun and He extrapolated his findings to Earth. Copernicus said that the Sun as the center better fit his mathematical equations, so he said the planets move in circles around the Sun. It was not discovered truth, but his own imagination that gave the heliocentric model. Today science says that any point in space can be considered the center, so they claim agnosticism in that area, but the imaginations of Copernicus and Galileo hang on as science, when the Creator’s true story of creation is regarded as myth.

I believe that the heavens and the Earth were created in the way that God tells us in Genesis. The telescopes show us the heavens, which are the firmament. The space telescopes have looked at the cosmos and subtracted all the light from the Sun and the stars, and there still remains a glow, which we can deduce as the remnant of the great light of the first day. Every direction from the Earth shows a red shift which suggests Earth as the center. The true speed of light has never been measured, we only have estimates and those estimates are seen through various media, air, water, ice. We assume we know the speed of light, but if the speed is underestimated than the size of the cosmos is overestimated. We don’t even know the composition of space. Is it a vacuum or a subatomic substance not yet identified?

Space cannot be nothing, because nothing by definition does not exist, yet we know space exists, so what is it? Quantum mechanics gives us clues that there is something there as two seemingly remote objects can become quantum entangled

The point is that when we use Genesis, which was told to Moses directly by God, we could explore these scientific inquiries. If we waste time on foolish theories that say there is no God, we keep going in circles and don’t get anywhere.
Scripture says this is ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. John 3:17 tells us he that believeth not is condemned already because he has not believed on the only Son of God. I can look at the data of modern science, but I have no time for endless godless theories about the universe and evolution. They are unfruitful and a waste of time.

The data of modern science is fascinating when looked upon with Genesis as the model, and Noah’s flood as the cataclysmic event all modern scientists love to talk about but not acknowledge.
It was an asteroid that killed the dinosaurs! Really why not a flood? Well that would make the Bible true and we can’t have that so it’s a meteor or asteroid crater. What they fail note is how any life could have survived their cataclysm, unless it was preserved on the Ark.

Peace be with you

 

[Gary K]

So you have abandoned your theory of 6 billion miles of ice encasing the earth?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

So you have abandoned your theory of 6 billion miles of ice encasing the earth?

No, that can be deduced from God’s word. Day one started out as water and no light, which means no heat. No light no heat plus water at absolute zero is ice.

What is your theory of day one according to scripture?

I am just believing what God says and watching Him do what He says He did. I am not God and to answer Job’s question, I was not there when God laid the foundation of the Earth, but I refuse to take the stance that Genesis is a myth and unscientific.

If we would direct our philosophy and science to include the existence of God, rather than trying with all their might to prove that there is no God, we would do better, and the father of lies would not be so successful in his deception of mankind.
Modern science is constantly going in circles to avoid God, it has become absurd. We se that in evolution, politics and morality.

Evolution contradicts philosophy. Everyone knows that the world behaves by the laws of
entropy. Complexity does not come from simplicity. Complexity is reduced to simplicity and disorder unless acted on by intelligence. But no, modern science says life came from random sparks and chemicals, and primitive life rearranged itself and developed into humans. That is so absurd, and even some that call themselves Christians believe that absurdity. Scripture says that Satan will come up with a lie so convincing that if it were possible would deceive the very elect. That is happening before our eyes in evolution.
It also happens in cosmology, or the study of the universe. They say it started from a single point and exploded into existence, and then this random explosion organized itself into galaxies, nebula, and star systems with planets and moons. Christians then buy into it because everyone else believes it. They say oh I believe in God but I am not unscientific. Really? We cannot make light have fellowship with darkness. I don’t believe any of their bunk. I want to look at the world through Genesis and known natural laws, not the endless imaginations of men that dream of a world without God. Modern cosmology is another form of absurdity by saying order comes from disorder, when we know that’s not true.

In politics we see that proposal that the world would be better off with organized thievery and the reward of sloth, and we will keep pushing it despite the numerous failures slaughter and death. That is the communist lie that we can tax our way into prosperity. God says thou shalt not steal and thou shalt not covet, but communism’s main tenet is that there is no God, and its goal is universal atheism with the theme song of John Lennon’s imagine. People know that it is absurd and the only way to enforce it is with the point of a gun, so we have mass casualties in Russia, China, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba, Nicaragua. Everywhere communism has been tried brought poverty and death, but we have been so deceived that the children and churches in America think that communism is so compassionate and view it as helping the poor
I don’t like right wing politics either. I would want to live under natural law with God and His commandments
In morality we see that now we no longer can tell what exactly makes a man and a woman. It’s all relative and depends on how you feel. Really ? What has it brought? I just like the other systems trying to avoid God, we get misery and death. The world offers the promise of bliss through sex. What we get is slaughter of babies through abortion, endless quests for love and personal fulfillment that has resulted in broken families, loneliness, despair and shame in being a white Christian man. They started all this crap with birth control and the promise of guilt free sex, and the lie goes on and on all of it violates God’s commands, so I reject all of it. I am a Catholic man. The woman with whom I will have sexual intercourse either is to be or is the mother of my children. I will never use contraception, nor entertain intercourse with a woman who does, end of story.

My theory of earth starting out as ice? It’s just a theory based on God’s word and observation of the universe. I see no reason to abandon it yet and wish to explore it further. If I put my faith in God and His word, I see no reason to fear to error. A man of God is humble and open to correction, if that correction comes from God, and not the vain imaginations of men that say there is no God. God calls them fools. Professing to be wise they became fools. No, I don’t believe them any longer.

 

[Gary K]

No, that can be deduced from God’s word. Day one started out as water and no light, which means no heat. No light no heat plus water at absolute zero is ice.

What is your theory of day one according to scripture?

I am just believing what God says and watching Him do what He says He did. I am not God and to answer Job’s question, I was not there when God laid the foundation of the Earth, but I refuse to take the stance that Genesis is a myth and unscientific.

If we would direct our philosophy and science to include the existence of God, rather than trying with all their might to prove that there is no God, we would do better, and the father of lies would not be so successful in his deception of mankind.
Modern science is constantly going in circles to avoid God, it has become absurd. We se that in evolution, politics and morality.

Evolution contradicts philosophy. Everyone knows that the world behaves by the laws of
entropy. Complexity does not come from simplicity. Complexity is reduced to simplicity and disorder unless acted on by intelligence. But no, modern science says life came from random sparks and chemicals, and primitive life rearranged itself and developed into humans. That is so absurd, and even some that call themselves Christians believe that absurdity. Scripture says that Satan will come up with a lie so convincing that if it were possible would deceive the very elect. That is happening before our eyes in evolution.
It also happens in cosmology, or the study of the universe. They say it started from a single point and exploded into existence, and then this random explosion organized itself into galaxies, nebula, and star systems with planets and moons. Christians then buy into it because everyone else believes it. They say oh I believe in God but I am not unscientific. Really? We cannot make light have fellowship with darkness. I don’t believe any of their bunk. I want to look at the world through Genesis and known natural laws, not the endless imaginations of men that dream of a world without God. Modern cosmology is another form of absurdity by saying order comes from disorder, when we know that’s not true.

In politics we see that proposal that the world would be better off with organized thievery and the reward of sloth, and we will keep pushing it despite the numerous failures slaughter and death. That is the communist lie that we can tax our way into prosperity. God says thou shalt not steal and thou shalt not covet, but communism’s main tenet is that there is no God, and its goal is universal atheism with the theme song of John Lennon’s imagine. People know that it is absurd and the only way to enforce it is with the point of a gun, so we have mass casualties in Russia, China, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba, Nicaragua. Everywhere communism has been tried brought poverty and death, but we have been so deceived that the children and churches in America think that communism is so compassionate and view it as helping the poor
I don’t like right wing politics either. I would want to live under natural law with God and His commandments
In morality we see that now we no longer can tell what exactly makes a man and a woman. It’s all relative and depends on how you feel. Really ? What has it brought? I just like the other systems trying to avoid God, we get misery and death. The world offers the promise of bliss through sex. What we get is slaughter of babies through abortion, endless quests for love and personal fulfillment that has resulted in broken families, loneliness, despair and shame in being a white Christian man. They started all this crap with birth control and the promise of guilt free sex, and the lie goes on and on all of it violates God’s commands, so I reject all of it. I am a Catholic man. The woman with whom I will have sexual intercourse either is to be or is the mother of my children. I will never use contraception, nor entertain intercourse with a woman who does, end of story.

My theory of earth starting out as ice? It’s just a theory based on God’s word and observation of the universe. I see no reason to abandon it yet and wish to explore it further. If I put my faith in God and His word, I see no reason to fear to error. A man of God is humble and open to correction, if that correction comes from God, and not the vain imaginations of men that say there is no God. God calls them fools. Professing to be wise they became fools. No, I don’t believe them any longer.

Day one God spoke the earth into existence.

There was no time to create a 12 billion mile ball of ice. Do you realize the sun is only 91 million miles away, and that Venus is only 3 billion miles from the sun? That means your reading of scripture has our entire solar system inside the radius of the ice ball. Besides that you have consistently ignored the fact that ice cannot be a surging mass if water. It is a solid.

You've ignored scripture to hang on to what evolutionists say about the age of earth as how many eons would have to pass before billions of miles of ice could form?