Happiness in Heaven while Loved Ones Fry in Hell?

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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Better treatment of others on the thread is always a viable option. Anyway, are you so sure I took the thread off the tracks, or is it just your knee-jerk response? It seemed to me the thread was off the tracks and over in the next county...
How I respond to other posters is not the topic of this thread. How have I mistreated anyone? I am not required to respond to any particular post.
 
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Radrook

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What more needs to be sought? If one is born of HIS SPIRIT, isn't it sufficient to say there was a need for salvation? And the LORD who is the SAVIOR of men, saved?

What exactly did HE save us from?
Well, it could not been a saving from being deep-fried while being kept conscious for eternity since that would have required that he be deep-fried while being preserved conscious for eternity and clearly he wasn't.
 
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Radrook

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Keep in mind what John the Baptist said: Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29). A search thru the rest of the NT will reveal other purposes, such as Him giving us more abundant lives.
The main purpose and the fringe benefits.
 
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thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
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Define "the Church", please.
Believers in Christ.

So, IOW, you are saying "the Church" has always taught a possible universal salvation?
Where did I say that?

Is that St Clement quote the spurious one i read on a church fathers' site?
I have no idea of knowing which sites you read.

JM is usually considered an annihilationist.
I've seen attempts to portray him as such.

I don't see any references in your quotes.
Then read them again.

she reads the church fathers in the original languages, not just in the English you have written.
Good for her.

"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."
It is true that different Christians had different conceptions of what might be in store for the afterlife. Many of them were Gentile converts from pagan traditions and so even in the best of cases they might've had a skewed understanding of the afterlife. I wouldn't hold that against them.
 
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ClementofA

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ClementofA

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thecolorsblend

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In that case, who is to say the Church didn't always believe in UR or CI or both as well as ECT?
Not sure what those abbreviations are supposed to stand for.

I didn't say you said anything. It was a question re logical possibilities. I asked:

So, IOW, you are saying "the Church" has always taught a possible universal salvation? And that "the Church" members may hope for such?
I would think all Christians hope that nobody ever goes to Hell. Certainly the Church hasn't taught that anybody specifically has gone to Hell.
 
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thecolorsblend

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ClementofA

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Then read them again.

A reference isn't a name. It's where your quotes came from, as in chapter & verse, i.e. the book, chapter, section, paragraph line of the author's quote. Your quotes didn't even provide a link to a website. I suppose you just copied it from some site that left out all references.
 
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Radrook

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Not sure what those abbreviations are supposed to stand for.

I would think all Christians hope that nobody ever goes to Hell. Certainly the Church hasn't taught that anybody specifically has gone to Hell.
I met one who said that if nobody went to hell, then she had avoided all those beautiful opportunities to have good time in vain.
 
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ClementofA

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Not sure what those abbreviations are supposed to stand for.

I would think all Christians hope that nobody ever goes to Hell. Certainly the Church hasn't taught that anybody specifically has gone to Hell.

UR = Universal Reconciliation

CI = Conditional Immortality

ECT = Eternal Conscious Torments

Quite commonly used in this forum.
 
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miknik5

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Wrong question; What did he come to save us FOR. "I came that they might have LIFE and LIFE ABUNDANT."

Did he fall short of His purpose from God, for coming? According to orthodoxy YES, according to UR NO!

1JO 3:8 He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.


What works do you believe this scripture is talking about.

Was it for our glory or HIS?
 
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thecolorsblend

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A reference isn't a name. It's where your quotes came from, as in chapter & verse, i.e. the book, chapter, section, paragraph line of the author's quote. Your quotes didn't even provide a link to a website. I suppose you just copied it from some site that left out all references.
I suppose I assumed interested parties could Google them. But I think at least a few came from http://www.churchfathers.org. I keep a text file on my system with a collection of quotes I find important and some could have come from there. It's been a long day and I don't actually recall where all the quotes came from but most (maybe all?) can probably also be found at http://www.churchfathers.org.

I met one who said that if nobody went to hell, then she had avoided all those beautiful opportunities to have good time in vain.
How very nihilistic of her. Either way, as a layman, she's welcome to her opinion but the Church isn't bound by her opinions.

UR = Universal Reconciliation

CI = Conditional Immortality

ECT = Eternal Conscious Torments

Quite commonly used in this forum.
I've been away from CF for about six months but don't recall seeing those terms before. So I'll take your word for it.

To your point though, the Church has taught there is no salvation outside the Church. People frequently assume this means that all non-Catholics go to Hell. But, as with so many things, that tends to oversimplify a potentially very complicated situation.

As per the Catechism...

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
So as paragraph 847 would have it, it's entirely possible that a non-Catholic who is ignorant about Our Lord or about the Church might actually be saved. The Church isn't making guarantees on that; rather, it's suggesting a framework whereby salvation might come to someone who has no knowledge of Our Lord or the Church's teachings. They aren't saying yes and they aren't saying no.

So it's theoretically possible that nobody has ever gone to Hell. The Church has no way of knowing and therefore won't make any guarantees on that.
 
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miknik5

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Jesus was going away to the Heavenly places to be with His Father. We know that God dwells in inapproachable light, so it is easy to see why men in the flesh could not go there. God made us to live here in the Earth, and I have seen no reason in the Bible to believe otherwise than that we will live in the Earth in the resurrection, even the New Earth. Now if those men Jesus was addressing were to die in their sins, they ran a very good chance (I am not the Judge of such things) of being tossed into the Lake of Fire for a prescribed time. The Bible states that the last enemy to be defeated is Death, and when that happens, I believe that the LoF will give up its dead, just as the Grave and the Sea did at an earlier time.
What would they have to do (while it is still the year of GOD's favor) in order for them not to die in their sins
 
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miknik5

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Wrong question; What did he come to save us FOR. "I came that they might have LIFE and LIFE ABUNDANT."

Did he fall short of His purpose from God, for coming? According to orthodoxy YES, according to UR NO!

1JO 3:8 He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.


What works do you believe this scripture is talking about.

Did you know this same ONE said if I had not come they would have no sin?

And did you know that this is already the verdict?
 
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miknik5

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Jesus was going away to the Heavenly places to be with His Father. We know that God dwells in inapproachable light, so it is easy to see why men in the flesh could not go there. God made us to live here in the Earth, and I have seen no reason in the Bible to believe otherwise than that we will live in the Earth in the resurrection, even the New Earth. Now if those men Jesus was addressing were to die in their sins, they ran a very good chance (I am not the Judge of such things) of being tossed into the Lake of Fire for a prescribed time. The Bible states that the last enemy to be defeated is Death, and when that happens, I believe that the LoF will give up its dead, just as the Grave and the Sea did at an earlier time.
By the way the grave and the sea giving up their dead is AFTER those who had a part in the first resurrection have already been raised to LIFE as they had already been promised
 
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miknik5

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Wrong question; What did he come to save us FOR. "I came that they might have LIFE and LIFE ABUNDANT."

Did he fall short of His purpose from God, for coming? According to orthodoxy YES, according to UR NO!

1JO 3:8 He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.


What works do you believe this scripture is talking about.

The difference between the works wrought of the kingdom of LIGHT in THE SON from the works wrought of "another kingdom and father'"
 
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