Gun control from a Christian perspective

[tremble]

I've not seen a thread about this in this area and I'm curious what other people may think. Please keep it friendly. ^.^

Should Christians own guns (on the understanding that the owner is prepared to use it)?

 

[pescador]

I'm not sure what you're looking for as a response. I own guns and have used them throughout my life but I would never use a gun against another person unless it was the most extreme of circumstances (not against an intruder, for example). My guns are double-locked and are only used for sporting purposes.

 

[peterandrewj]

I won't poke at a hornets nest, unless I intend to destroy it.

The deep divisions in the US have all to do with religious politics.

All I'll say is, one failed attempt by a shoe bomber and everybody has to remove their shoes to board a plane. Children getting massacred in school by gun violence, and not one shred of gun control.

For God and country has nothing to do with Jesus.

 

[Nickybobby]

I've not seen a thread about this in this area and I'm curious what other people may think. Please keep it friendly. ^.^

Should Christians own guns (on the understanding that the owner is prepared to use it)?

If they live in a place where firearm ownership is lawful, they may lawfully own one and they wish to own one: yes. If any of those three are not true: No. As Christians we should obey the law of the land in most cases.

As for the comments by another poster about school shootings, quite the non sequitur but thanks for "not stirring up a hornets nest."

 

[RDKirk]

The point of view of a citizens of Heaven, a member of the Body of Christ, should always be from the concern for our mission:

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." --- Matthew 28.

There are a lot of things pagans worry about that are simply not issues for Christians and demand no "Christian" actions or decisions.

Christians in America tend to run after those same pagan worries, though, and usually to distraction from the mission and division from other Christians over issues that are not mission-critical issues.

Which is what Satan intends.

"Gun control from a Christian perspective."

The question is: Where and to what extent does it affect
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

 

[BryanW92]

I own guns. I have a permit to carry concealed and I do carry. I have used my gun twice to prevent a robbery and all it took was the display of the weapon.

Some will say that the money in your wallet is not worth shooting a person. Well, to the robber, it is worth threatening a person with a lethal weapon.

When I was 17, I worked in a restaurant. One night, a man walked into the Krispy Kreme next door and robbed it. On the way out, he shot and killed the woman who was working there alone. A few months later, the Pizza Hut across the street as robbed after closing. The robbers took the money and then herded the 3 workers into the cooler where they shot and killed them all.

Just giving them your money is often not enough.

You'll say that Jesus says to walk the extra mile, give them your cloak, turn the other cheek, etc. Well, tell that to a rape victim. Does Christ require a rape victim to relax and enjoy it and offer more?

The criminal has all the advantages. He chooses the victim, the time, and the location. He chooses the nature of the crime and just how far he is willing to take it. The victim has no choice but to respond. I can't carry every weapon available to be able to provide a symmetrical response, so I carry the one that trumps them all.

 

[tremble]

If they live in a place where firearm ownership is lawful, they may lawfully own one and they wish to own one: yes. If any of those three are not true: No. As Christians we should obey the law of the land in most cases.

Hi Nicky. I'm not sure how you are applying the last sentence. Are you saying Christians who are opposed to using guns should be okay with those who do agree with it if the law of the land says it's ok, or are you saying all Christians are supposed to own guns if it is a law of the land in which they live? Or something different?

Children getting massacred in school by gun violence, and not one shred of gun control.

"Not one shred" sounds suspiciously like an exaggeration.

I'm not sure what you're looking for as a response. I own guns and have used them throughout my life but I would never use a gun against another person unless it was the most extreme of circumstances (not against an intruder, for example). My guns are double-locked and are only used for sporting purposes.

I'm not quite sure either, though I expected there would be a large variety of contributions. It's a discussion so I was imagining people would share perspectives.

You'll say that Jesus says to walk the extra mile, give them your cloak, turn the other cheek, etc. Well, tell that to a rape victim. Does Christ require a rape victim to relax and enjoy it and offer more?

hi Bryan. I found your post the most difficult to respond do because you get right to the point. Protection.

I think the most important thing in all of this is to not give in to fear. Those people who died in the restaurants, that's sad, but I don't see that as a good reason for them to carry guns. There is a consistent theme in the NT that there is more to life than just this physical body.

I saw a religious movie when I was a kid. I can't remember the name but it was in a setting before Jesus' day. The hero of the story was in a prison and a woman he knew (I think it was his love interest) somehow ended up in the prison (possibly to visit him) and she was attacked by one of the guards. There was nothing the hero could do while she was screaming and struggling but he called out for God to help her. Suddenly the guard was too rough in wrestling with her and accidentally snapped her neck.

I can't help but think that God has ways of protecting us. The case in the movie is extreme, but still, God did help her.

Would God ask people to let themselves be killed (or hurt) when they could have protected themselves if they had been allowed to fight back? Yes, I think he would not only allow that to happen, but that he would, at times, ask it from his followers.

I don't know what I'd do if I was being attacked. It's hard to say until I'm actually in that situation but I'd like to think that God would give me the grace to accept any situation he asks of me. "Not a sparrow falls without permission of him who calls". If I really believe that, then I need to be willing to accept any situation if I have no way out of it.

Jesus' instruction about turning the other cheek was about us being willing to love our enemies. In order to stop hate, we need to be willing to make sacrifices even if it's painful for us. However, I wouldn't see someone hurting another person as my enemy.

If I saw someone being attacked or raped, I would try to stop it. I don't think I would shoot the person if I had a gun on me, but perhaps I would waive the gun around hoping they would believe I intended to use it. I'm not a particularly intimidating person so I doubt anyone would believe the act, though. Or maybe I'd throw something at the person. I don't think I'd be doing it out of anger or hate so much as just trying to help someone in need.

 

[BryanW92]

Would God ask people to let themselves be killed (or hurt) when they could have protected themselves if they had been allowed to fight back? Yes, I think he would not only allow that to happen, but that he would, at times, ask it from his followers.

I see it as a line between being prey for a predator and martyrdom. If you were being attacked by a bear, would God want you shooting one of his majestic creatures? What if it's an endangered species of bear? Can you really think that clearly as you see a 500 pound killing machine coming at you with 5 inch claws and a paw the size of a garbage can lid?

Why is a human who has given up every shred of his humanity to victimize other humans any different? Perhaps your death is part of God's plan to get him to repent later in prison or even on Death Row. Would you give both your kidneys to save two kids' lives? Would you kill a predator who is abducting them?

Like in the bear attack, I can't think that much when I'm being attacked. If I have a knife, I will stab. If I have a gun, I will shoot. As I said, the two times I did use a gun, I did not have to shoot. But, God gave us skills and tools and we get called upon to make decisions. I do know one thing for sure, if you do not have the means to defend yourself, then you have no decision to make. An evil person has taken away your power of decision.

Now, for martyrdom: if I found myself captured by Muslims and forced to recant my Christian faith or face execution, I would choose death. That is a situation where your choice as a Christian is obvious. But, if I had a gun at the moment when they captured me, you can bet I'd be trying to make them martyrs for their allah so I wouldn't have to become a martyr for God. If I could take the sword away that they are going to use to cut my head off, you can bet I'd go full Crusader on them.

 

[KrAZeD]

It is never wise to wave a gun around without the intention of using it. Upon brandishing it you finalize the flight or fight response in those your standing up to.

Now for my personal opinion on Christians with guns, I'm for them and anyone owning and using guns for self defense or hunting.

While I won't shoot someone just for breaking into my home, I will allow you to take material possessions, though I will draw the line at putting my family in any real danger and will protect them at all costs.

 

[pescador]

It is never wise to wave a gun around without the intention of using it. Upon brandishing it you finalize the flight or fight response in those your standing up to.

Now for my personal opinion on Christians with guns, I'm for them and anyone owning and using guns for self defense or hunting.

While I won't shoot someone just for breaking into my home, I will allow you to take material possessions, though I will draw the line at putting my family in any real danger and will protect them at all costs.

IMHO the best response yet.

 

[BryanW92]

It is never wise to wave a gun around without the intention of using it. Upon brandishing it you finalize the flight or fight response in those your standing up to.

IMHO the best response yet.

Yep. Be prepared to use it if they choose fight, but pray that they choose flight. Don't get between them and the exit.

 

[ForJesusChrist]

Should Christians own guns (on the understanding that the owner is prepared to use it)?

Yes, if they are prepared to use it they should know the responsibility that comes with the gun. Its not the gun that kills, its the person.

 

[RDKirk]

If we're going to view this from a Christian perspective (which is not the same thing as viewing it from a pagan perspective and rationalizing those conclusions with the bible), it should work the same way wherever the Church may be.

IOW, if gun ownership is necessary for Christians to do their Christian mission--which is what "from a Christian perspective" must mean--in the US, then it must be just as necessary for Christians to own guns everywhere in order to carry out the Christian mission.

So that means gun-owning Christians in America should be far more effective in spreading the gospel than non-gun-owning Christians in China.

That's not the case, however. Christians in America tend to be less fruitful in the mission of evangelism than those in places where gun ownership is tightly controlled, and far less fruitful than those places where gun ownership is outright outlawed. There is no positive correlation.

This is like "can a Christian be wealthy?"

Of course, pagans are concerned about such things and run after them, and it's natural to do so. But let's be honest and admit that our desire for such things is not a matter of "Christian perspective."

I say this from the position of having been military most of my adult life, having carried a weapon as a civilian in the past, and with an intention of carrying one again in the very near future.

I can come up with all the biblical rationale for this that anyone can...but the fact is, Jesus wouldn't need to carry a gun. He'd know how to defuse any situation without it. If I were as strong in faith as Jesus, I'd never need a gun either.

Alas, I'm weak, fearful, and sinful, and often fall back on the same crutches that pagans require. But I won't try to declare it righteous.

 

[Sketcher]

The political issue of gun control is separate from my decision to own a gun or not. If someone wants to purchase a cache of assault rifles and explosives, more power to 'em. Personally, I do not own a gun right now because I cannot justify the expense, I cannot commit to regular range time right now, and I really don't want to put a bullet in somebody. If my circumstances were to change and I were to acquire a firearm, I'll be praying that I never have to use it against a person, and that if I do in order to protect another person, that I'll shoot straight.

 

[BryanW92]

That's not the case, however. Christians in America tend to be less fruitful in the mission of evangelism than those in places where gun ownership is tightly controlled, and far less fruitful than those places where gun ownership is outright outlawed. There is no positive correlation.

There is no correlation whatsoever. Saying that owning a gun is a sign of a lack of faith is like saying that keeping your chickens in a coop is a lack of faith that God will keep the foxes away.

There's an old story. A town gets flooded and a man finds himself sitting on his roof as the floodwaters rise. He prays for deliverance.

A man in a rowboat comes by and offers to rescue him. "No", says the man, "God will provide."

The waters rise some more and a helicopter flies over and offers to rescue him. Again, the man declines, saying that God will rescue him.

Eventually the house is swept away and the man drowns. He gets to heaven and asks God, "Why didn't you rescue me?"

God says, "I sent a boat and helicopter."

Sometimes God works by miracle, but most of the time he works by mundane things like the guy in the rowboat offering to rescue the man trapped on the roof.

 

[miamited]

Hi tremble,

Well, there have been threads on this on other boards, but...

Personally, I've never owned a firearm nor feel any necessity to own one. I know a lot of people will say they should have the right to own one to gather food, but I know for a fact that mankind has fed himself for several thousand years fairly well without one. Some will say they feel the necessity to own a firearm for protection, but I've chosen to trust the Lord for protection. I've always been a psalm one kind of person.

For the Lord watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked shall perish.

As far as governmental gun control, I think that Japan is on the right track and they certainly post each year numbers that seem to support that in regards to firearm deaths. Now, some will say, well, it's their culture. Ok, then perhaps we should adopt some of their culture

As to whether a born again believer should own a gun, I wouldn't encourage it. But, that's only my personal understanding of how Jesus asked his followers to live. Some will say, well, Jesus instructed his disciples to take a sword or dagger with them. Maybe so, but there is not one shred of evidence that any of them did or ever used one for protection. Jesus may very well have instructed them to carry one with them because they would be on their own from time to time and would need this necessary instrument in those days to provide for themselves. As far as I know from the non-biblical history of the first disciples, nearly every one of them suffered a martyrs death and not a single mention that a single one drew a sword for their protection. The only evidence of a disciple using a sword or dagger was when Peter cut off the ear of the minion of the high priest when they came to take Jesus away and Jesus quickly rebuked him for using it to protect him.

That's my two cents worth.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[NorrinRadd]

I've not seen a thread about this in this area and I'm curious what other people may think. Please keep it friendly. ^.^

Should Christians own guns (on the understanding that the owner is prepared to use it)?

Respectfully, the Subject and the actual question presented are two different issues.

The Subject is about a Constitutionally protected right, and by implication whether we will allow laws and regulations that infringe on that right, or whether we will undertake the hard task of amending the Constitution if we believe more restrictions are in order.

The question asked is about how Xians should behave, and whether they should take full advantage of their Constitutionally protected rights.

 

[tremble]

I've never discussed this on a forum before. I feel like my understanding of the issues is fuzzy. I have a vague understanding of what I believe to be right but I'm having trouble finding ways to express it clearly so I'm hoping that discussion will help me to sharpen my understanding.

Can you really think that clearly as you see a 500 pound killing machine coming at you with 5 inch claws and a paw the size of a garbage can lid?

It's quite a fearful image you present. I realize you are talking about an animal here but you are relating it to a human context. The appearance of the person should be7 irrelevant whether it's a huge guy with a nasty look in his eye or kindly grandmother with violent tendencies.

If we allow fear to dictate our responses then we will do the wrong thing either way. I'm not saying we should be oblivious or stupid, but certainly fear will not guide us true.

Why is a human who has given up every shred of his humanity to victimize other humans any different?

Demonizing the attacker will not help us to make good choices about how to handle the situation.

Perhaps your death is part of God's plan to get him to repent later in prison or even on Death Row.

Thank you for considering this. There is no guarantee that it will work, but it's worth keeping in mind. We could end up laying our lives down in a rather painful way hoping it will lead to someone repenting and if it doesn't, then we could become bitter about the wasted sacrifice, but I don't think God sees it that way and I don't think he wants us to see it that way either. Doing good is still good even if it does not accomplish what we hoped it would.

Jesus allowed himself to be killed so that the whole world would have a chance at forgiveness. His death did not guarantee repentance, but at least he's given people the option. We may think, "well yeah, but that's Jesus. He was supposed to die as part of God's plan", but I think that misses the point of the choice he and God made for Jesus to willingly lay his life down not only to buy salvation for us, but to give us an example of how love over comes hate.

There is no point in giving us an example if we are not meant to follow that example.

Would you give both your kidneys to save two kids' lives?

Interesting choice of example. It really depends on the situation. If God made it clear that's what he wants me to do, then yes I think I would. Organ donation is a fantastic way to share the gift of life. ^.^

I believe the key factor in any of these hypotheticals is to keep asking "what does God want". That question needs to become standard in anything we do.

Would you kill a predator who is abducting them?

Laying one's life down is a deeply intimate decision between God and the individual. It's not my place to make that decision for another person so if I see someone being hurt, or about to be hurt, I will not think to myself, "they should lay their lives down". I will try to do the best I can to help that person.

In your example, I would be praying pretty hard for God to stop the predator. If that didn't work then I'd do my best to stand between that person and the intended victims. I see a difference between hate and violence; they are not necessarily the same thing. Perhaps I would try to use some physical means to incapacitate the attacker but I think any attempt on the Christian's part to invoke physical violence needs to be done very carefully and prayerfully.

Like in the bear attack, I can't think that much when I'm being attacked.

I get what you are saying. When things are happening quickly it's hard to make reasoned choices. Adrenaline is flowing and we are scared so we are more likely to react than to think through a list of options. We all handle pressure differently, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to stay that way. We can learn to think under pressure and therefore be more likely to make better decisions.

For example, a person who stubbornly insists that he can't think under pressure but just react, is more likely to miss an option for escape or some other way to defuse the situation. Your comment about being careful not to stand between the attacker and that person's means of escape is a good example of thinking clearly under pressure. A person who panics could miss that and end up adding more danger to the situation.

Panic is likely to cause a person to overlook asking God for help or wisdom in how to respond to a violent situation, especially if that person has a weapon they are relying on. Their first thought is likely to be the weapon rather than God. I'm not talking about absolutes, but just what seems to be likely.

There is no correlation whatsoever. Saying that owning a gun is a sign of a lack of faith is like saying that keeping your chickens in a coop is a lack of faith that God will keep the foxes away.

I agree with Bryan here. I don't think it shows a lack of faith (well not necessarily) to take precautions. Alarm systems, barred windows, and guard dogs are all reasonable solutions to avoid conflict. Whether it is a lack of faith really depends on whether the person is acting in wisdom or acting in fear.

However, I feel there is something different when it comes to relying on a weapon. I think there is a spiritual disconnect in finding comfort in a weapon which is designed to harm people.

God allows bad things to happen. There could be so many reasons why but I feel like we miss those reasons when we instead start thinking, "If God won't protect us then we'll protect ourselves".

 

[BryanW92]

The appearance of the person should be7 irrelevant whether it's a huge guy with a nasty look in his eye or kindly grandmother with violent tendencies.

Demonizing the attacker will not help us to make good choices about how to handle the situation.

In your example, I would be praying pretty hard for God to stop the predator. If that didn't work then I'd do my best to stand between that person and the intended victims. I see a difference between hate and violence; they are not necessarily the same thing. Perhaps I would try to use some physical means to incapacitate the attacker but I think any attempt on the Christian's part to invoke physical violence needs to be done very carefully and prayerfully.

For example, a person who stubbornly insists that he can't think under pressure but just react, is more likely to miss an option for escape or some other way to defuse the situation. Your comment about being careful not to stand between the attacker and that person's means of escape is a good example of thinking clearly under pressure. A person who panics could miss that and end up adding more danger to the situation.

My brother has been a probation officer for 25 years. He knows criminals. He knows how they think.

The bear analogy is very accurate for thinking about how you have to deal with a prison-trained repeat offender. I say prison-trained because prison is grad school for the small-time criminal. Most of the people in prison do not repent for their crime. They repent for the mistake they made that led to them getting caught. More often than not, the mistake was leaving a witness behind.

In a robbery, there isn't time for Q&A to establish what they want and how you are going to give it to them, with some time spent on soothing your fears and insuring a good dialogue to foster an atmosphere of understanding.

They surprise you, often in a violent manner. They may begin by striking you or by shoving a gun in your face or maybe just just shooting you or stabbing you. But, unlike movies, you aren't likely to die from that first gunshot or stab wound. They just aren't as deadly as movies make them out to be and criminals aren't good shots.

So, you are shot, stabbed, or just knocked senseless while they take your stuff. But, then they remember what they learned in prison--witnesses can ID you. So, they shoot or stab you a few more times while you are down. Or maybe they just kick you to death. Perhaps they just beat you really bad. A beating in real life isn't like the movies where Bruce Willis can take it and keep fighting and get a butterfly bandage later. It doesn't take much to recieve brain damage, to have an eye crushed in a broken socket, to have a kidney ruined or testicles smashed, or have a knee or elbow or hand ruined, or teeth knocked out. One severe beating by a prison-trained thug can affect the rest of your life.

This is real. It is not a hypothetical situation.

Most of us do not spend out days in the prision yard pumping iron, so once the criminal gets within touching range, we are already beaten. In fact, once he gets within 7 yards, we are in serious trouble.

You have to employ several strategies to avoid this.

1) Situational awareness--whether you are male or female, you probably cannot beat a prison-trained predator. Regardless of your gender, take the advice of offered to women in rape prevention courses. You can protect your 7 yard circle through awareness and never need a gun.

2) Keep an eye on people. Make sure they know that you know they are there. Don't be confrontational ("What YOU lookin' at??"). Just make brief eye contact and smile in a friendly way.

3) Have an escape plan at all times. Which way will you go if that scary dude starts to veer towards you in the parking garage?

Criminals look for the easy target. Keep your head up and look confident and aware. They'll find someone else.

But, once they begin their run-in to the attack, you only have a second to decide what you are going to do. If you do not have a weapon and aren't a good sprinter, then you have no option. You are now a victim.

One thing to remember, Jesus did not die on the cross as an example. He died because he was a sacrifice. I do not accept that it is my purpose in life to be sacrificed to a criminal can take $40 out of my wallet.

 

[Nickybobby]

Should Christians own guns (on the understanding that the owner is prepared to use it)?

If they live in a place where firearm ownership is lawful, they may lawfully own one and they wish to own one: yes. If any of those three are not true: No. As Christians we should obey the law of the land in most cases.
"

Hi Nicky. I'm not sure how you are applying the last sentence. Are you saying Christians who are opposed to using guns should be okay with those who do agree with it if the law of the land says it's ok, or are you saying all Christians are supposed to own guns if it is a law of the land in which they live? Or something different?

What I'm saying is that Christians should obey the law. If the law allows them to have a gun and they choose to own one (bold above) then they should have one.

Romans 13: Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

I'm absolutely not saying that Christians should be required to have guns, as a result of being Christian, unless the local law requires them to.

I'd also expand this to say that if I, as a Christian or otherwise, choose to have a gun (legally) then other Christians should accept that it is my right. If they don't like it, they can work on changing the laws. They don't have to like it, but they shouldn't be judging me any less a Christian for exercising my right.

If we're going to view this from a Christian perspective (which is not the same thing as viewing it from a pagan perspective and rationalizing those conclusions with the bible), it should work the same way wherever the Church may be.

IOW, if gun ownership is necessary for Christians to do their Christian mission--which is what "from a Christian perspective" must mean--in the US, then it must be just as necessary for Christians to own guns everywhere in order to carry out the Christian mission.

This is your opinion, but lacks support and is absurd. I could make the same argument in favor of vegetarianism, nationalism, isolationism or pretty much any other ism. It's bunk.