Gun control from a Christian perspective

[tremble]

Why would I want gun control when, historically, gun control has actually been citizen control, meant to disarm citizens?

Citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven or citizens of the systems of man? It makes a difference.

I see. So, God's values changed between the Old and New Testaments? If it's changed once, who's to say they won't change again?

Yes, God is able to change. That's why it's so important to keep listening to God. It's humans who have the problem with change; we've created a doctrine that says anything he's said or done in the past can and will be used against him if it suits our bias to do so.

Wouldn't that be a contradiction of the Biblical doctrine of God's aseity and God's immutability?

A contradiction according to who?

So, Jesus approves of violence in some circumstances, but not others?

Yeah, it's called context. Does that really surprise you?

He wasn't rebuked. He was told to put his sword away, not that he shouldn't carry a sword, not that he should never use it.

Ohhh right, Jesus just coincidentally happened to tell Peter to put his sword away right when Peter was using his sword, but there is no connection between the two, right?

No, it's not. But you have raised the question of God's attitude concerning violence.

So?

So, it's not possible that I could have thoughtfully, studiously, and prayerfully considered these things and come to a different conclusion?

Of course it's possible. But I see a lot of bias coming through in your posts. For example, using the OT stuff to override NT teachings as though they are equal. They are not. The new is better. Sure, there are lessons from the old which carry over into the new, but not all of it. Jesus said, "you've heard it said an eye for an eye and tooth for tooth, but I tell you to love your enemies etc.." Some of it has changed. How we respond to violence is one of those issues.

Another example of bias in your posts is the sword thing. There is only one reference to Jesus talking about selling a cloack to buy a sword in the whole of the NT, and yet you use it as though it proves the use of guns is okay. The same people who will, for many other issues, call that "prooftexting" will overlook such errors in reasoning when it comes to issues they want to support.

This is especially true since the issue does not end with Jesus talking about buying a sword. When Peter tried to use the sword, Jesus stopped him. That is enough in itself to seriously question it's use as an argument in favour of relying on weapons to defend ourselves. But you don't acknowledge that. Why not?

 

[BryanW92]

we've created a doctrine that says anything he's said or done in the past can and will be used against him if it suits our bias to do so.

That is the most ironic thing you've ever said!

 

[tremble]

God can use someone as an instrument of his judgment via sending fire and plague at their command (in obedience to the desire of the Spirit), and He can also do so by giving someone strength to pull a trigger and leading them to do so by the same Spirit.

Sure, but then all you really have is a world full of people saying, "God told me to shoot them" and can you prove otherwise when they quote to you all the same arguments you've used with me?

 

[BryanW92]

This is especially true since the issue does not end with Jesus talking about buying a sword. When Peter tried to use the sword, Jesus stopped him. That is enough in itself to seriously question it's use as an argument in favour of relying on weapons to defend ourselves. But you don't acknowledge that. Why not?

He tells them to buy a sword as a general protection measure. But, he stopped Peter from using the sword in one instance where:

a) it would have been an attempt to thwart God's plan. Hebrew scripture lays out the events that were to come. It wasn't just some Progressive attempt to make a claim that defending your life against a thug might kill the next MLK.

b) would not have accomplished anything but getting Peter (and other apostles) killed. Note that Peter was not the one being attacked. Jesus knew that Peter would run away and hide later, so his moment of impetuous courage would have been counter-productive.

These two unrelated events demonstrate the need to discernment in using weapons, instead of having nothing but a strict "no weapons ever" policy or a "kill em all and let God sort em out" policy. There is a middle ground that covers a lot of territory in between those two extremes.

 

[BryanW92]

Sure, but then all you really have is a world full of people saying, "God told me to shoot them" and can you prove otherwise when they quote to you all the same arguments you've used with me?

Yet, you don't have that. The gun control meme of "the streets will be filled with blood" has not come true, except in places where law-abiding people aren't permitted to have guns (Chicago, Detroit, Washington DC, for example).

The fallacy in your argument is that you assume that people want to shoot other people. I don't know anyone who thinks like that. We all carry a gun and none of us use it.

Florida has some of the most permissive gun laws in the nation, yet most of our gun crimes are committed by people who cannot legally own guns (felons, domestic abusers, the insane, and people under 21).

 

[food4thought]

I feel a need to clarify. I have been conflicted over this issue for some time. I am a private security guard, and for some time have declined becoming armed even though I would make more money that way... I simply didn't want to have to make a life or death decision like that for a buck an hour more. Problem is, I have found that not being armed simply removes an option that in certain extraordinary circumstances might be the best option.

Yet my circumstance has cause me to consider whether it would be right to take a life in defense of my own or someone else's life (no property I can think of is worth taking a life over). I have had to think about how I would act without a gun should I be threatened with one, or how I would act if I came across someone else being attacked, because I work in a city where this type of thing has been known to happen. I myself have been threatened with a knife when I attempted to break up what looked like a relatively harmless fistfight in the middle of the road.

In an ideal world, I would not have to ask myself these questions. In an ideal world, there would be no guns. Sadly, we do not live in such a world, and we must make difficult moral decisions. For me, it came down to one of our guards being brutally beaten by a man half his age and twice his size, unprovoked... even if I had been there, I could not have compelled this man to stop beating my 70 year old coworker. What could I have done? Nothing but call the police and hope we both didn't get beat to death before they showed up. If I were armed, I might have been able to stop the man by leveling a gun at him and commanding him to stop, maybe shooting a warning shot safely into the ground to get his undivided attention. All else failing, I could have tried to shoot him in a non-lethal spot and hoped he lived. In the final analysis, though, if it came down to killing a violent man who would brutally beat an old man just because he was wearing a uniform, or allowing a helpless 70 year old trying to pay his bills get beaten to death... you do the math for yourself.

 

[Aldebaran]

God can use someone as an instrument of his judgment via sending fire and plague at their command (in obedience to the desire of the Spirit), and He can also do so by giving someone strength to pull a trigger and leading them to do so by the same Spirit.

Sure, but then all you really have is a world full of people saying, "God told me to shoot them" and can you prove otherwise when they quote to you all the same arguments you've used with me?

But what you're doing here is shifting the focus from God's will to the issue of what a person would be able to prove to other people after the fact.

I think the decision whether or not to own a gun for personal defense is in fact, a personal decision. We all have our reasons, and I believe it's easy enough to show that God isn't opposed to the person who has a clear conscience before God about owning and using one in defense, if in fact, it really is defense. Even common sense is a good indicator. All you have to do is imagine yourself in a situation that could happen to you, and decide what you would do in that scenario. Better yet, imagine what you would do if faced with a situation someone else already has.

So Tremble, imagine yourself as a teacher at Sandy Hook Elementary School when someone with a gun is shooting kids and teachers and is coming closer to your classroom. You have the door shut and locked and the kids are hiding under their desks. You have a pistol in your desk drawer (let's say it was issued by the school). Suddenly, a loud BANG and the door flies open after the gunman shot the lock. Now he comes in and starts shooting your students. What do you do?

 

[dragongunner]

I suspect someone said that same thing when the Corinthians read the second letter to them from Paul.

Sorry, "you can't judge me!" is not scriptural valid. Within the Body of Christ we are certainly called to judge the behavior of those within the Body of Christ.

But that judgment is based on the word of God, to judge our brothers in sisters who are committing sin. Your opinions our not the Word of God. Has God told you by the scriptures that I am sinning because I don't agree with you? Obviously it seems you have come to that conclusion, and that is just wrong, if anything you keep setting yourself up for judgement. What behavior do you find sinful in me?

 

[dragongunner]

Let's keep the focus on Jesus and not on individuals okay?



You are accusing me of wanting gun control. That's an odd accusation to make, isn't it? Are you saying you don't? You want anyone to be able to walk into a gun shop and purchase any kind of gun available, for any reason at anytime at any price?



I never said anything like this. I never asked you if you own or use guns. I've not asked you for your background or history with guns or even if you should be allowed to own a gun. I've not told you to sell your guns or to stop using them. I never asked you to participate in this discussion at all. Whether you feel that you have turned your back on God or not is up to you. Pretending that I did may make you feel better about your arguments but it will not contribute anything useful to the discussion.

It is this kind of emotional debating which I feel stops people from being able to genuinely consider that God may tell them not to rely on weapons for their protection.

You should go back and read your opening thread. You asked for what people thought....I guess if you don't say my name then that means I'm not intitled to respond, only by private message invitation to a open forum.....wow. Thats right, only YOU can contribute anything useful to your discussion....I rest my case.