Gun control from a Christian perspective

[KrAZeD]

I guess I'm the one who's strange for trusting my life to God, but enough said for the time being.

Theirs nothing wrong with putting our trust in God to deliver us from a situation. Their is an issue with naiveness. Theirs nothing wrong with wanting a Devine miracle to arise in a dire situation, sometimes we are that miracle. God normally will work through someone rather than supernatural means( they do happen on occasion- I.e. A bullet not firing, but found later was fully capable). We do need to rely on God in guiding us, and knowing his provisions can come through us and not always from "above". Though if were just standing idly by waiting, how much can we expect him to accomplish through someone not acting or heeding him.

Try convincing me of where standing by watching your mom get raped is better than using force, lethal or non. While I was only a mere kid, I fully understood then as I do now. Use everything at your disposal in defense of the innocent- or those in need, regardless of your safety, feelings. Had I not been shown this the first time I got man handled and had to endure that, the second time would have repeated, thank God it didn't.

I'm sure we've all heard the "joke" of a mans home being in a flood plain. He saw the weather forecast predicting a flood and warning to evacuate, but remained in his home- God would protect/provide safety. A cop stops by asks him if he needs help in getting to a safer area because a flood was on it's way, he declines and replies God would help protect him. Well the flood comes and he's found on his roof when a helicopter stops by. They offer to evacuate him, again he declines, God will protect him and save him. Well the man eventually drowns. He stands before God and asks him, where were you when my house was flooded and I drowned? God replies, did I not try 3 times in getting you to leave and helping you leave, what did you think, I was just going to beam you up and place you on dry ground?

God doesn't always perform miracles in cut/dry aspects, sometimes it's through means we don't always see eye to eye with.

Now the issue of carrying and using a gun for self defense or any other device is upon each individuals "cross" to bare. Some can become content solely on an alarm, and upgraded doors and locks. Others will leave an area with a known tendency for violence, crime. Some have come to the understanding that if need, they will use lethal force, but pray the day never arises. All are depending on God for protection, all have taken wise counsel and understanding of their surroundings. Each has done what their comfortable with.

Those who rely on moving to a "safe" neighborhood fled, in regards that The Lord guided them away from danger and will continue to do so- we can pray that's true.

Those who rely on an alarm with upgraded security, went a little further than "moving". Though now their comfortable with God sending them "outside" help (cops, neighbors) at the sound of an alarm going off, prior to them enduring suffering.

Those who opt to venture for "lethal force" if ever necessary, rely on The Lord to never need it. They also rely on The Lord to help defuse the situation if possible. They also rely on The Lord to wake them up in time, protect their family for that time, and rely on The Lord to allow you to aim true, or close enough to stop any advance.

What it appears from your comments is you've graciously been spared from true violence, may God continue that for you.

Many people can not get over a situation where their spouse gets raped from their inability to properly defend them. Or getting sexually victimized themselves nor, get over a child abduction. Let alone a home envision where guns are drawn and shoved down ones throat. They end up battling regret for years and years because they did not do all that they truly could have. An this is not doubting God nor stop believing in him, this is natural human psyche.

It is not that one is foolishly attempting to justifying the usage of lethal force, or taking away the ability of allowing God to defend them. It is knowing the world that their living in, and wisely taking precautions to defend themselves and others if ever needed. To think God would condone standing up for ones self, or defending ones self or others with lethal force if necessary is mind blowing. Do you think those 12 legions of angels Jesus said would come down and defend him if he asked would just stand around and sing kumbaya? No, they would have justly annihilated those threatening him.

An I agree their is ultimately a line at which point self defense is not needed, I.e. Jesus telling peter to put his sword up (fulfillment of crucifixion scripture). Then their are the situations where God has lead one- I.e. Paul in prison in Rome, even Paul's beheading. He didn't defend himself in those times, God had placed him their for specific reasons, and he KNEW it. Though you will not convince many through the word of God that one is to idly stand by and watch one get raped or tortured (it is not their). That is the work of the devil, I'll fight the devil and his minions any day of the week that God would call me for, wether I fail or win, I'll try with everything at my disposal. That's my cross that I can bare.

 

[Sketcher]

I own guns.
I shoot guns.

I am prepared to use a gun to defend my life and family.
I have been highly trained with guns (army and law enforcement).

I believe in the US Constitution's 2nd Amendment.

An armed society is a polite society. When everyone that is a legal adult owns/carries a gun, very little crime actually takes place. Switzerland has mandatory gun ownership for adults and also boasts one of the lowest crime rates.

School shootings happen because gun owners are not responsible with their firearms. They should be locked up and children should not have access to the keys/combinations.

Less than 1% of US crimes involving a gun are actually committed by a law abiding registered gun owner. That means 99% of the gun crimes are unaffected by "gun control measures" because criminals could care less about the laws.

Gun control is being able to hit your target.

FYI- cars kill more people each year than guns. As do cigarettes, alcohol, cancer, heart disease, diabetes, pneumonia, and infections. As a matter of fact, gun deaths don't even break into the top 20 causes of death each year.

Pick something else to try and rant about.

But . . . some of them look scary.

 

[tremble]

I'm sure we've all heard the "joke" of a mans home being in a flood plain.

Seriously, this is the third time this week this joke has been referenced. ^.^

Try convincing me of where standing by watching your mom get raped is better than using force, lethal or non.

I don't think anyone has said we should stand idly by while someone else is being hurt around us. I may choose to lay my own life down, but I don't have the right to make that decision for someone else.

Also, why did you choose to use "mom" as the example? Isn't it because you are employing emotional pressure in the example in an attempt to boost your argument? Why not leave it as any person being raped? Would you refuse to help a random stranger and if not, then why specify "mom" in your example?

This is part of the problem I see in so much of the debating here. There could be some good points being raised, but so much of the arguing is done from an emotional perspective of using fear to make the point.

When we allow fear to bias our decision making it will almost certainly lead us to make the wrong decisions.

Now the issue of carrying and using a gun for self defense or any other device is upon each individuals "cross" to bare.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Because fear is involved it has confused the issues here. The cross represents sacrifice. It is a symbol of Jesus allowing himself to be harmed even though he could have saved himself. Among other things, it represents a conscious choice that Jesus made to lay his life down.

But here, it's being used to support the option of NOT laying one's life down but rather doing the exact opposite. This is why I said that relying on fear will cause us to make wrong choices. It is a clear case of someone using scripture to justify a personal bias.

Some can become content solely on an alarm, and upgraded doors and locks. Others will leave an area with a known tendency for violence, crime. Some have come to the understanding that if need, they will use lethal force, but pray the day never arises. All are depending on God for protection, all have taken wise counsel and understanding of their surroundings. Each has done what their comfortable with.

There is a difference between defence and offence. You've slipped both into the same argument as though they are equivalent, and then said that everyone is right in their own way. It's a sneaky argument because you've taken the genuine wisdom of preparing a wise defence and applied it to a lethal offence. They are not the same.

Jesus hid himself at times and used disguises to avoid conflict with those who wanted to hurt him. That is different from Jesus carrying weapons with him "just in case".

Those who opt to venture for "lethal force" if ever necessary, rely on The Lord to never need it.

This is where I feel like reliance on weapons stops us from considering that there may be times when God will ask us to suffer violence. Because of fear and perhaps an ignorance about what real love is, we just assume that God will never ask us to sacrifice ourselves. As a result we convince ourselves that weapons are an option which God obviously approves. We convince ourselves that God's love equates to a reliance on weapons to protect ourselves.

Many people can not get over a situation where their spouse gets raped from their inability to properly defend them. Or getting sexually victimized themselves nor, get over a child abduction. Let alone a home envision where guns are drawn and shoved down ones throat. They end up battling regret for years and years because they did not do all that they truly could have. An this is not doubting God nor stop believing in him, this is natural human psyche.

It's good to consider the possibilities from a realistic perspective, but I still get the feeling that fear is being promoted here rather than a genuine attempt to explore all the various possibilities.

Many people lose their faith because they cannot handle loss. I have not lost anyone close to me due to violence so my perspective is limited but I feel that I am not trying to tell anyone how they should or should not feel about violence or loss. Rather, I am trying to argue from the perspective of basic spiritual principles which could apply to any Christian. It really is sad when bad things happen to people, but if we really want to be followers of Jesus, we need to accept that God has the right to allow bad things to happen and not blame ourselves when he does so.

For example we could say, "if only I had a gun, I could have stopped that bad thing from happening". Maybe, but I can't see anything in our saviour's teachings that a reliance on weapons is what will help us to accomplish God's will. The opposite is true.

It is not that one is foolishly attempting to justifying the usage of lethal force, or taking away the ability of allowing God to defend them. It is knowing the world that their living in, and wisely taking precautions to defend themselves and others if ever needed.

Again, you are comparing defence to offence as though they are the same. They are are not. I feel this is a subtle bias working here. I'm not trying to insult you but to clarify what I see as a genuine mistake in your reasoning. I could be wrong (and I hope I am) but I suspect that you will disagree with me about this but even then, I think that will be because you want to protect the bias. It suits your argument to treat offence and defence as the same so you will probably be unwilling to let go of that argument.

Do you think those 12 legions of angels Jesus said would come down and defend him if he asked would just stand around and sing kumbaya? No, they would have justly annihilated those threatening him.

But the point is, he did not call them. There is a reason why he made the point that he could have, and yet did not. There is a lesson here.

Though you will not convince many through the word of God that one is to idly stand by and watch one get raped or tortured (it is not their). That is the work of the devil, I'll fight the devil and his minions any day of the week that God would call me for, wether I fail or win, I'll try with everything at my disposal. That's my cross that I can bare.

I believe there is another problem with your reasoning here. If we can convince ourselves that it is the devil doing the dirty work then it's easier for us to justify lethal force. Yes evil is at work every day in the world but don't forget that satan is the father of lies. He's very good at it and he will use all the deception he can to turn us away from God.

Part of that deception includes making the turning away look right and just. He will set up ethical situations which work to manipulate our human reasoning into acting against God's Heavenly reasoning in such a way to convince us that our human reasoning is the same as God's. He will manipulate our feelings and fan the flames of emotional outrage. In the midst of our very strong feelings we will stop listening to what God may want.

Just as Satan said to Eve in the Garden, "surely you will not die" he says the same to us in various situations today. He will whisper to our spirit, "Surely God does not want you to be killed violently. He loves you. Stop that nasty devil from hurting anyone. Take up arms and defend yourself!"

 

[dragongunner]

Last year and about every year in the US about 200 people are killed by "assault" rifles. During the same years and every year about 600 people are killed by "hammers".

Is it OK for Christians to own hammers.....?

To have or have not is going to be between that person and the Lord.

Personally I have guns, I carry one, I will protect others if I can. Blessed are the peace keepers.

 

[South Bound]

But . . . some of them look scary.

One of the things I like to do is to show an anti-2nd Amendment person a picture of an AR15 and ask, "should we ban assault rifles".

Invariably, they will say "Yes! We have to ban assault rifles!"

Then, I'll show them a picture of a Ruger Mini-14 and ask, "Should we ban this rifle?"

They'll usually think about it for a minute and say "No, that looks like an ordinary rifle."

And then, after giving them a minute to think about it, I explain to them that the AR15 and the Ruger Mini-14 are essentially the same weapon. The only difference is that the AR15 has cosmetic features that people who don't know guns mistakenly believe make it a "machine gun" (another incorrectly used scare word) and that I called it an "assault rifle". The Ruger Mini-14 doesn't have those cosmetic features and so looks like just an ordinary rifle one might use for recreation or around the farm.

I explain to them that, because of the similarities of both guns, and the difference in their reaction, the only difference was how the two guns were presented to them and that they've been brainwashed to make an emotional decision because one looks scary and not because of the facts.

That's usually the time when they'll get mad and start calling me names.

 

[RDKirk]

Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Because fear is involved it has confused the issues here. The cross represents sacrifice. It is a symbol of Jesus allowing himself to be harmed even though he could have saved himself. Among other things, it represents a conscious choice that Jesus made to lay his life down.

But here, it's being used to support the option of NOT laying one's life down but rather doing the exact opposite. This is why I said that relying on fear will cause us to make wrong choices. It is a clear case of someone using scripture to justify a personal bias.

And that is why I pointed out in my post #13 that indeed, it's a choice that stems from my fear and weakness, and because as a Christian I should have no fear or weakness, I recognize that it's not justifiable in the Lord. It's on the list of things I know I do that are not right.

This is where I feel like reliance on weapons stops us from considering that there may be times when God will ask us to suffer violence. Because of fear and perhaps an ignorance about what real love is, we just assume that God will never ask us to sacrifice ourselves. As a result we convince ourselves that weapons are an option which God obviously approves. We convince ourselves that God's love equates to a reliance on weapons to protect ourselves.

I think this gets to the quote by Nathan Saint when considering a situation in which his self defense would be lethal: "[As a Christian]I am prepared to die; [as sinners] they are not."

For example we could say, "if only I had a gun, I could have stopped that bad thing from happening". Maybe, but I can't see anything in our saviour's teachings that a reliance on weapons is what will help us to accomplish God's will. The opposite is true.

In the three specific situations in which I've been afraid for my life--one was an encounter with Communist rebels in a jungle, two were armed muggings in Washington DC (within a 72 hour period)--none were "if only I had a gun, I could have stopped that bad thing from happening." Actually, I did have a gun in the jungle, but all those cases were situations in which the bad guys simply had the element of surprise.

I have known and worked with a number of Navy SEALs and Air Force Pararescue. I spent some time in a combat pistolcraft club with some SEALs and Pararescue as well.

Man, those guys are straight-up Olympic athletes with firearms in combat. It's not just their hundreds of hours of training and experience, it's also genetics. Just as I could shoot hoops forever and never be Michael Jordan, I would never be those guys.

So, I'm in a movie theater with my wife and daughter, sitting in the dark tossing back popcorn, thoroughly engrossed in the flick. Suddenly there are some gunshots and screams.

I've learned through experience that I'm not James Bond or Jason Bourne--I'm not capable of being effectively lethal in any situation at a moment's notice. If I'm in one of those fantasy self-defense scenarios, the only thing that's going to save me is if someone else gets shot first and gives me several seconds to figure out what's going on before I have to act. Then I might have a chance. That's what reality is. Been there, done that.

To get good at all I have learned would require giving myself over to the gun. I would have to practice, practice, practice constantly as I have learned that the Special Forces soldiers who do this for a living must do. I have to think tactically at all times. In every situation, wherever I go, I must evaluate every person around me as a possible threat.

No, I can't look at him as someone I might witness to, I have to judge him first as someone I might have to kill.

That's what that life is really about. Ultimately, I don't think the two are really compatible. Being Jason Bourne means not being an effective witness for Christ.

I believe there is another problem with your reasoning here. If we can convince ourselves that it is the devil doing the dirty work then it's easier for us to justify lethal force. Yes evil is at work every day in the world but don't forget that satan is the father of lies. He's very good at it and he will use all the deception he can to turn us away from God.

But if we know our battle is not with flesh and blood and that Satan is actually behind it, doesn't that remove the justification to kill the person? I think the reason Jesus could be graceous to so many who assailed Him was because He knew they were not the real enemy. They were "human shields" as it were, and striking them would have been "collateral damage" that never touched the enemy.

We have to keep remembering, as Nate Saint knew, "Those are the people we are here to save."

 

[dragongunner]

One of the things I like to do is to show an anti-2nd Amendment person a picture of an AR15 and ask, "should we ban assault rifles".

Invariably, they will say "Yes! We have to ban assault rifles!"

Then, I'll show them a picture of a Ruger Mini-14 and ask, "Should we ban this rifle?"

They'll usually think about it for a minute and say "No, that looks like an ordinary rifle."

And then, after giving them a minute to think about it, I explain to them that the AR15 and the Ruger Mini-14 are essentially the same weapon. The only difference is that the AR15 has cosmetic features that people who don't know guns mistakenly believe make it a "machine gun" (another incorrectly used scare word) and that I called it an "assault rifle". The Ruger Mini-14 doesn't have those cosmetic features and so looks like just an ordinary rifle one might use for recreation or around the farm.

I explain to them that, because of the similarities of both guns, and the difference in their reaction, the only difference was how the two guns were presented to them and that they've been brainwashed to make an emotional decision because one looks scary and not because of the facts.

That's usually the time when they'll get mad and start calling me names.

"brainwashed to make emotional decision"....you got that right. Funny how the socialist elite in the news pumps garbage they want people to believe. Funny they don't get upset that far more children die every year because of trampolines, or how far more children die in swimming pools than by guns. Their is a agenda for sure. Like I said in my other post, your 3 times more likely to be killed by someone with a hammer mad at you than being shot by a so called 'assault" rifle. But lets blame the gun, not the criminal.

 

[dragongunner]

And that is why I pointed out in my post #13 that indeed, it's a choice that stems from my fear and weakness, and because as a Christian I should have no fear or weakness, I recognize that it's not justifiable in the Lord. It's on the list of things I know I do that are not right.



I think this gets to the quote by Nathan Saint when considering a situation in which his self defense would be lethal: "[As a Christian]I am prepared to die; [as sinners] they are not."



In the three specific situations in which I've been afraid for my life--one was an encounter with Communist rebels in a jungle, two were armed muggings in Washington DC (within a 72 hour period)--none were "if only I had a gun, I could have stopped that bad thing from happening." Actually, I did have a gun in the jungle, but all those cases were situations in which the bad guys simply had the element of surprise.

I have known and worked with a number of Navy SEALs and Air Force Pararescue. I spent some time in a combat pistolcraft club with some SEALs and Pararescue as well.

Man, those guys are straight-up Olympic athletes with firearms in combat. It's not just their hundreds of hours of training and experience, it's also genetics. Just as I could shoot hoops forever and never be Michael Jordan, I would never be those guys.

So, I'm in a movie theater with my wife and daughter, sitting in the dark tossing back popcorn, thoroughly engrossed in the flick. Suddenly there are some gunshots and screams.

I've learned through experience that I'm not James Bond or Jason Bourne--I'm not capable of being effectively lethal in any situation at a moment's notice. If I'm in one of those fantasy self-defense scenarios, the only thing that's going to save me is if someone else gets shot first and gives me several seconds to figure out what's going on before I have to act. Then I might have a chance. That's what reality is. Been there, done that.

To get good at all I have learned would require giving myself over to the gun. I would have to practice, practice, practice constantly as I have learned that the Special Forces soldiers who do this for a living must do. I have to think tactically at all times. In every situation, wherever I go, I must evaluate every person around me as a possible threat.

No, I can't look at him as someone I might witness to, I have to judge him first as someone I might have to kill.

That's what that life is really about. Ultimately, I don't think the two are really compatible. Being Jason Bourne means not being an effective witness for Christ.



But if we know our battle is not with flesh and blood and that Satan is actually behind it, doesn't that remove the justification to kill the person? I think the reason Jesus could be graceous to so many who assailed Him was because He knew they were not the real enemy. They were "human shields" as it were, and striking them would have been "collateral damage" that never touched the enemy.

We have to keep remembering, as Nate Saint knew, "Those are the people we are here to save."

Then you should of know that Nate Saint was a missionary, and that he carried a bolt action 30/06 rifle. Nate said he carried it as a deterent, the simple sight of it would make a hostile native think twice. Nate also said that he only carried it for that reason, that he had decided he would not use it. Nate was called to be a missionary, and in that calling he decided for himself what he would and would not do...his decision. When Nate and his friend were killed by hostiles, he had left his rifle behind. I respect your opinion for yourself, just don't judge others by your opinions, but if you do thats on you.

 

[RDKirk]

Then you should of know that Nate Saint was a missionary, and that he carried a bolt action 30/06 rifle. Nate said he carried it as a deterent, the simple sight of it would make a hostile native think twice. Nate also said that he only carried it for that reason, that he had decided he would not use it. Nate was called to be a missionary, and in that calling he decided for himself what he would and would not do...his decision. When Nate and his friend were killed by hostiles, he had left his rifle behind. I respect your opinion for yourself, just don't judge others by your opinions, but if you do thats on you.

The point you miss about Nate Saint is that he arrived through thought and prayer to the same conclusion I have.

He thought it through to its only valid spiritual conclusion: Ultimately, being constantly prepared to kill prevents a Christian from being constantly prepared to save.

 

[BryanW92]

The point you miss about Nate Saint is that he arrived through thought and prayer to the same conclusion I have.

He thought it through to its only valid spiritual conclusion: Ultimately, being constantly prepared to kill prevents a Christian from being constantly prepared to save.

Christians don't save. Jesus does that.

 

[peterandrewj]

Some of these responses go from the ridiculous to the absurd to make God approving of guns. That’s what it takes to include it in godliness.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for the protection of others with guns, takes the cake.

 

[BryanW92]

Some of these responses go from the ridiculous to the absurd to make God approving of guns. That’s what it takes to include it in godliness.

God probably doesn't approve of most things that people in industrialized nations consider to be the bare essentials.

Do you think God approves of golf? It's a game that wastes land and water so a few people can walk around hitting a ball into a hole, and often cussing at the ball and the hole. It costs a lot of money that could be spent on the poor. It takes a lot of time in play and practice that could be spent serving others. If you want to walk in a field, God has provided fields. If you want to chase a ball, take one to the field and chase it.

Same for just about any other sport. God would say that if you need exercise, go work for a person who needs help. If you need a release from life's stress, then your life needs changed more than you need a temporary fix.

Do you think God approves of swords? Well, actually he does, according to scripture, but if you take it too far (he who lives by the sword perishes by the sword). The key is "lives". A mercenary or cutpurse lives by the sword. God does not disapprove of those who posses a sword or use it for good reason. A gun would fit into the same category. But, if your guns become an idol, and I know many people who treat them as idols, then God would disapprove...of the idolatry, not the hardware.

 

[food4thought]

In order to take the pacifist view of Scripture you have to completely ignore large chunks of the OT, and some parts of the NT as well. I understand that we are not living under the old covenant, but the God who commanded Joshua to destroy the Canaanites is the same God who indwells every believer today. The same God that will send fire from the mouths of the two witnesses to destroy those who try to kill them is the very same God who died on the cross for our sins.

Do not try to sell me the pop-culture-God-is-only-and-always-love-with-no-judgment-of-the-wicked brand of Christianity. That God is only a false idol and has little in common with the God of Scripture. The only way we will ever please God is to be obediently led by His Holy Spirit; and as I said before, there are times we may be called to be lambs, and I believe there are times when we may be called to be lions as well. God help us to be sensitive to His leading, so we may truly be His representatives in this fallen and wicked world.

 

[BryanW92]

A lot of people point to the early martyrs as proof that Christians should not employ weapons in self-defense. Let's break that down a bit.

The early Christians were an insignificant minority in Roman cities. When the Romans came to arrest them by sending a squad of trained and well-armored soldiers, fighting in their home would only result in a pointless death which was not seen by anyone. So, they surrendered to be arrested. After all, arrest is not death. You still have hope.

They are tried and convicted. At this point, fighting is useless. The armed soldiers would cut you down in a second.

They go to the dungeons to await execution. They have an opportunity to swap stories and testify to each other, as well as witnessing to their guards and the prisoners who aren't heading for execution.

Finally, the day of execution comes and they get to demonstrate their faith to the entire population, who came to watch a spectacle but instead sees people serenely walking to their doom and dying with a smile on their face.

Now, that kind of death has meaning. Don't even compare it to being beaten, knifed, or shot to death by a semi-literate thug for your iPhone and credit cards.

 

[dragongunner]

Some of these responses go from the ridiculous to the absurd to make God approving of guns. That’s what it takes to include it in godliness.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for the protection of others with guns, takes the cake.

So if you hate police officers and those who have used guns to save lives and give you a free country to live in to make such comments, then just come out and say it. What does the bible say about such people who protect, does it not say they are the "ministers" of the Lord. Can you quote where someone said guns are godliness?


Romans 13:4King James Version (KJV)

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

 

[dragongunner]

The point you miss about Nate Saint is that he arrived through thought and prayer to the same conclusion I have.

He thought it through to its only valid spiritual conclusion: Ultimately, being constantly prepared to kill prevents a Christian from being constantly prepared to save.

Thats your opinion, and it might of been Nates. But you can't judge everyone else by opinions. Thats what got the Pharisees into trouble. Whats not ok for you may not be the same for others. Don't let opinion become a law for all others to follow, thats where you have gone.

 

[South Bound]

The point you miss about Nate Saint is that he arrived through thought and prayer to the same conclusion I have.

He thought it through to its only valid spiritual conclusion: Ultimately, being constantly prepared to kill prevents a Christian from being constantly prepared to save.

Somebody else already pointed out that Christ saves, not us, but how does my carrying a gun keep me from evangelizing the unregenerate?

 

[KrAZeD]

Seriously, this is the third time this week this joke has been referenced. ^.^

God works in mysterious ways; obviously it's meant for someone then. First time I've visited this board in a week.

I may choose to lay my own life down, but I don't have the right to make that decision for someone else.

Really, you think you don't. What do you do when the attacker thwarts off every conceivable way you can think of with having him stop? He continues to do whatever he's in the act of, creating harm to you or someone else? I doubt your saying you just chalk it up and say God must desire this. Also, what purpose does it do if you lay your life down and the "event" still continues and doesn't change the outcome?

Their is a proper time to use lethal force if necessary.
I guess I can iterate this here as well. Use of lethal force doesn't always have to result in killing. I know several who target for lung,thigh, and abdomen shots. Areas that don't immediately kill, but typically will drop one for the time being. This because their not sure if they can handle the burden of a death at their hands.

This is part of the problem I see in so much of the debating here. There could be some good points being raised, but so much of the arguing is done from an emotional perspective of using fear to make the point.

That's the lack of discernment from real experience and perceived notions. Those who are able to grasp that the use of lethal force when actually needed is ok, typically have encountered the exact situations most are saying isn't. I say this in respect to those who understand the burdens of actually having to use lethal force. Not to those who think lethal force is the first step in solving any problems.

We also need to define the true aspect of "fear". Fear of losing ones life, we can agree to a certain part does not, and should not G the only deciding factor in using lethal force. The aspect of having to suffer and endure physical/sexual trama and or torment, is not just "fear", but a horrible experience that just does not disappear. It becomes tolerable, and forgivable, but in no way can one forget those feelings. It's those feelings that people understand no one should have to endure if preventable. Those who understand that pain, understand it's easier carrying the burden of using lethal force if necessary than allowing one to have to deal with the burden or "fear" of the trama.

While God can work miracles through any encounter and situation, it doesn't mean that was the best choice or only way He could have worked them (regards to our free will and choosing).

Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Because fear is involved it has confused the issues here. The cross represents sacrifice. ;.......But here, it's being used to support the option of NOT laying one's life down but rather doing the exact opposite.

Your only partially correct. My usage was about the burden and carrying the consequences of our actions of using lethal force if necessary. The choosing to take a life to save a life, or help one in dire need is a huge sacrifice. While obvious not the same as our Lords, it is a sacrifice. That's understanding of ones actions, and understanding the consequences of it. Regardless of whom or why, it's always a saddening event to have one perish, we are all part of Gods creation.

It's a sneaky argument because you've taken the genuine wisdom of preparing a wise defence and applied it to a lethal offence.

Owning a gun or any lethal tool for self defense is exactly that - defense. I wish you'd understand exactly what I had implied, without the main stream ideals.

We can agree a gun as an only resort of safety is more offensive- but still defensive.

My main point and intended, many people who decide on using guns for self defense acknowledge it and utilize it, as a last resort. When that person has bypassed neighborhood watch, bypassed your door and locks, has bypassed your alarm and is now feet away from you or another, your stuck with very limited options. A gun is a final defensive measure against one, who at that time has clearly established they are their for evil intentions.

I was not referring to those who are comfortable in using lethal force because one has walked into their personal space and "might" want to enact bodily harm.

Now explain how it's an offense when every person in America knows people have the right to own guns. Explain how it's an offense when we are allowed to defend ourselves with force when needed? Those are defensive measures to help prohibit people from becoming victims from assailants who want to create severe bodily harm.

This is where I feel like reliance on weapons stops us from considering that there may be times when God will ask us to suffer violence. Because of fear and perhaps an ignorance about what real love is, we just assume that God will never ask us to sacrifice ourselves. As a result we convince ourselves that weapons are an option which God obviously approves. We convince ourselves that God's love equates to a reliance on weapons to protect ourselves.

Rhetorically Define violence. I'm asked to turn the other cheek, in regards though to what end? To the point of accepting traumatizing abuse or just quick anger? I've not implied at any time that Gods love equates a reliance to weapons.

I've equated that God has given us the choice to defend ourselves and others when needed, and if lethal is the only tool then so beit. I've equated that God is with us, and while he does protect us, HE also doesn't just expect us to sit their helpless.

And for the comment about satan twisting minds to allow usage of lethal force, it goes both ways. Satan twists justly defending ones self with just standing by and accepting whatever evil because it's Gods desire for one to suffer-I.e rape, pedophilia.

 

[BryanW92]

And for the comment about satan twisting minds to allow usage of lethal force, it goes both ways. Satan twists justly defending ones self with just standing by and accepting whatever evil because it's Gods desire for one to suffer-I.e rape, pedophilia.

That is the key point. Satan puts words in people's mouths to make them say that we must suffer and die for God.

10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

The sheep do not lay down their life to show the shepherd how much they love him. Now, Jesus does call us to surrender our lives to him, but there's nothing about surrendering our lives to a rapist or murderer or terrorist to prove how much we love him. Only Satan would ask that and would twist and quote scripture to prove that it is true.

 

[tremble]

Last year and about every year in the US about 200 people are killed by "assault" rifles. During the same years and every year about 600 people are killed by "hammers".

Is it OK for Christians to own hammers.....?

The issue was never about which kind of death is more prevalent. This topic is about gun control from a Christian perspective.

And then, after giving them a minute to think about it, I explain to them that the AR15 and the Ruger Mini-14 are essentially the same weapon. The only difference is that the AR15 has cosmetic features that people who don't know guns mistakenly believe make it a "machine gun" (another incorrectly used scare word) and that I called it an "assault rifle". The Ruger Mini-14 doesn't have those cosmetic features and so looks like just an ordinary rifle one might use for recreation or around the farm.

The appearance of the weapon is irrelevant to the point of how Christians should view using weapons to protect themselves.