Ex gentile? All must be Torah observant

[big macher]

That is like saying nobody knows how to pronounce 'pecan'
because different people use different pronunciations.

It's not the same. That's why there are dictionary.

 

[AbbaLove]

Actually the anti-Christian sentiment is a Hebrew Roots phenomenon, not an MJ thing.

Actually, "anti-Christian" sentiment is a worldly anti-Christ phenomenon not a Hebrew Roots phenomenon. Christians involved in the Hebrew Roots Movement are not "anti-Christian" (anti-Christ). Yonah Mishael was not implying that MJs are "anti-Christian" ... but rather that MJs do not refer to themselves as Christians. Neither the Hebrew Roots Movement nor the Messianic Judaism Movement are ... "anti-Christian" according to the original meaning of "Christian" as a born again follower of Mashiach Yeshua annointed by God's Spirit.

1 Peter 1:22-23 (CJB)
22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth, so that you have a sincere love for your brothers, love each other deeply, with all your heart.
23 You have been born again not from some seed that will decay, but from one that cannot decay, through the living Word of God that lasts forever.

Then around 100 A.D. the so-called "true universal Church" (Catholic) began establishing its doctrine ...

Ignatius of Antioch ...
"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]). http://www.catholic.com/tracts/what-catholic-means​

 

[Open Heart]

Actually, "anti-Christian" sentiment is a worldly anti-Christ phenomenon not a Hebrew Roots phenomenon.

I'm talking about anti-Christian stuff coming from fellow believers. We have seen it sometimes in this forum. It's Hebrew Roots.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Actually it's just a few HIGHLY VOCAL individuals.

Ah. Any time that I've used the word Christian here, I've been chastised. I figured it was an MJ thing.

 

[Open Heart]

Ah. Any time that I've used the word Christian here, I've been chastised. I figured it was an MJ thing.

Well there is a difference between calling an MJ Christian, and talking about Chritianity in general. Most MJ's prefer to be referred to as MJ's than as Christians, with obvious exceptions such as those MJ's who are members of regular churches. But most MJ's will speak respectfully of the Christian churches and Christianity. It is only the Hebrew Roots folks that put down Christianity, although we do have a few of those here in the forum.

 

[pat34lee]

It's not the same. That's why there are dictionary.

But there are other ancient languages that did have vowels.
Egyptian for one, and they wrote out the name.
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/pos...h-in-Egyptian-Hieroglyphic-Texts.aspx#Article

They also had vowels in cuneiform. And the name was written in
Greek also.
http://nazarenespace.com/page/nazarenes-and-the-name-of-yhwh

 

[AbbaLove]

Actually the anti-Christian sentiment is a Hebrew Roots phenomenon, not an MJ thing.

I'm talking about anti-Christian stuff coming from fellow believers. We have seen it sometimes in this forum. It's Hebrew Roots.

What specific link(s) or forum posts are you referring to as “anti-Christian” being as you suggest a “Hebrew Roots phenomenon” and not a MJ thing? A contemporary trend among some Christian denominations is their recent interest in the Hebrew Roots of Christianity. For example referring to yourself as a “Hebrew Catholic” seems representative of an example of the greater Hebrew Roots Movement within Christianity. Catholics consider themselves to be Christians.

As a “Hebrew Catholic” do you think of yourself as a Christian? If not then aren’t you aligning yourself more with the greater Hebrew Roots Movement that you claim is “anti-Christian” in contrast to most Catholics that view Christianity as more of a positive contribution then negative influence.

Ah. Any time that I've used the word Christian here, I've been chastised. I figured it was an MJ thing.

 

[big macher]

Well there is a difference between calling an MJ Christian, and talking about Chritianity in general. Most MJ's prefer to be referred to as MJ's than as Christians, with obvious exceptions such as those MJ's who are members of regular churches. But most MJ's will speak respectfully of the Christian churches and Christianity. It is only the Hebrew Roots folks that put down Christianity, although we do have a few of those here in the forum.

I agree. Messianic Jews and Messianic Judaism in general have very good relations with Christians and Christianity. It's because Messianic Judaism in general doesn't view Christainity as a separate 'religion'. MJ stance generally is that the 2 peoples of God are one but are differentiated from each other.

Also Messianic Jews like to be called Messianic Jews because Messianic Jews practice Judaism at some level of Torah observance and consider themselves a Judaism and like I said it differentiates MJ from Christianity but doesn't considers itself 2 people of God. For instance I say I'm a Jewish believer not a Messianic Jew. Why? Because I don't necessarily agree 100% with Messianic Judaism. And I also don't agree 100% with Christianty. I'm in the middle. Honestly Jewish indentity is important in the grand scheme of things. MJ is taking that towards Judaism and with Judaism comes the non Jew issues.

NOTE: I'm NOT posting a posting or teaching that Messianic Judaism isn't for non Jews and/or non Jews should stay in Christianity AND although I posted something like this doesn't necessarily mean I'm aligned. I'm JUST posting my experience from being involved in Messianic Judaism.

Whether right or wrong this is why Messianic Jews involved in Messianic Judaism have good relations with Christianity in general.

 

[AbbaLove]

I agree. Messianic Jews and Messianic Judaism in general have very good relations with Christians and Christianity. It's because Messianic Judaism in general doesn't view Christainity as a separate 'religion'. MJ stance generally is that the 2 peoples of God are one but are differentiated from each other.

Isn't this "differentiated from each other" more of mankind's imagined/contrived religious concept than a Biblical concept (e.g. Galations. 3:28, Romans 1:16-17). Isn't this an example of a disunity that exists among mankind's religious denominations and their doctrines that is wrong. Whether a religious "Jew" (e.g. Messianic Jew) or a religious "non-Jew" (Christian) or a religious "Protestant" and a religious "Catholic" you are correct when you say, "differentiated from each other" which is wrong from the Biblical New Covenant concept as put forth by Yeshua, Paul and Peter in the NT.

John 3:5-8 (CJB)
5 Yeshua answered, “Yes, indeed, I tell you that unless a person is born from water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
6 What is born from the flesh is flesh, and what is born from the Spirit is spirit.
7 Stop being amazed at my telling you that you must be born again from above!
8 The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but you don’t know where it comes from or where it’s going. That’s how it is with everyone who has been born from the Spirit.”
Galatians 3:28 (AMP)
28 There is [now no distinction in regard to salvation] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you [who believe] are all one in Christ Jesus [no one can claim a spiritual superiority].
Romans 1:16-17 (CJB)
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God’s powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile.
17 For in it is revealed how God makes people righteous in His sight; and from beginning to end it is through trust — as theTanakh puts it, “But the person who is righteous will live his life by trust.” (Habakkuk 2:4; Proverbs 3:5-6)

Isn't Romans 1:16-17 referring to those that are "differentiated from each other" before becoming born again as a new s/Spiritual creation in Mashiach Yeshua / Christ Jesus (also John 3:5-8, Galatians 3:28, and 1 Peter 1:22-23).

1 Peter 1:22-23 (CJB)
22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth, so that you have a sincere love for your brothers, love each other deeply, with all your heart.
23 You have been born again not from some seed that will decay, but from one that cannot decay, through the living Word of God that lasts forever.

 

[big macher]

Isn't this "differentiated from each other" more of mankind's imagined/contrived religious concept than a Biblical concept (e.g. Galations. 3:28, Romans 1:16-17). Isn't this an example of a disunity that exists among mankind's religious denominations and their doctrines that is wrong. Whether a religious "Jew" (e.g. Messianic Jew) or a religious "non-Jew" (Christian) or a religious "Protestant" and a religious "Catholic" you are correct when you say, "differentiated from each other" which is wrong from the Biblical New Covenant concept as put forth by Yeshua, Paul and Peter in the NT.

John 3:5-8 (CJB)
5 Yeshua answered, “Yes, indeed, I tell you that unless a person is born from water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
6 What is born from the flesh is flesh, and what is born from the Spirit is spirit.
7 Stop being amazed at my telling you that you must be born again from above!
8 The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but you don’t know where it comes from or where it’s going. That’s how it is with everyone who has been born from the Spirit.”
Galatians 3:28 (AMP)
28 There is [now no distinction in regard to salvation] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you [who believe] are all one in Christ Jesus [no one can claim a spiritual superiority].
Romans 1:16-17 (CJB)
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God’s powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile.
17 For in it is revealed how God makes people righteous in His sight; and from beginning to end it is through trust — as theTanakh puts it, “But the person who is righteous will live his life by trust.” (Habakkuk 2:4; Proverbs 3:5-6)

Isn't Romans 1:16-17 referring to those that are "differentiated from each other" before becoming born again as a new s/Spiritual creation in Mashiach Yeshua / Christ Jesus (also John 3:5-8, Galatians 3:28, and 1 Peter 1:22-23).

1 Peter 1:22-23 (CJB)
22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth, so that you have a sincere love for your brothers, love each other deeply, with all your heart.
23 You have been born again not from some seed that will decay, but from one that cannot decay, through the living Word of God that lasts forever.

Depends how you look at it. Jews don't look at it that way. And sects of Christianity look at it the way you presented.

Jews look at it as we are the set apart, the chosen people of God because of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And that we are to be set apart. Yes we are different and that's what makes us Jews.

Then you have Christianity which says we are equal in every way.

Both sides have their biblical evidence.

 

[Open Heart]

What specific link(s) or forum posts are you referring to as “anti-Christian” being as you suggest a “Hebrew Roots phenomenon” and not a MJ thing? A contemporary trend among some Christian denominations is their recent interest in the Hebrew Roots of Christianity. For example referring to yourself as a “Hebrew Catholic” seems representative of an example of the greater Hebrew Roots Movement within Christianity. Catholics consider themselves to be Christians.

As a “Hebrew Catholic” do you think of yourself as a Christian? If not then aren’t you aligning yourself more with the greater Hebrew Roots Movement that you claim is “anti-Christian” in contrast to most Catholics that view Christianity as more of a positive contribution then negative influence.

I don't want to embarass anyone by quoting their posts, and as it is now against the SOP it would probably be wrong for me to do so. The Hebrew Roots MOVEMENT is not the same thing as various Christian denominations becoming interested in their Jewish roots. The HRM says that the Christian church took a wrong turn when it divorced itself from Judaism in the second century and has been wrong ever since; the idea is to return to being a Jewish sect and for every Christian to fully follow the 613 laws in addition to believing in Yeshua. Everything else is pagan.

I, as a Hebrew Catholic, am not a part of the HRM. Obviously not, since I am a part of the Christian Church. There are similarities, of course, but the obvious difference is that I don't condemn the church like the HRM does, but rather I consider the Church to be the cat's meow. I am a MJ WITHIN the Church.

Here is a good link on the basics of the HRM:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrew-roots.html

 

[big macher]

correct, and this exemplifies the contradiction within the SOP here. It claims to be a form of Judaism. Is it a self loathing form of Judaism? Or a reinvention of Judaism as seen through Hebrew roots theology?

I had to think about this response and read the SoP again about Messianic Judaism being a sect of Judaism and is a fulfillment of the Jewish scriptures.

Ok the 1st thing that pops up is MJ is a sect of Judaism. Are we talking about Judaism of today?

 

[pat34lee]

Here is a good link on the basics of the HRM:
deleted url

That link is an anti-Torah site. It begins ok, until it gets
to the point of saying that HR are wannabe Jews and
nobody should follow Torah except Jews. No surprise
that they misrepresent the NT scriptures and say that
Jesus fulfilled and did away with the law.

 

[big macher]

That link is an anti-Torah site. It begins ok, until it gets
to the point of saying that HR are wannabe Jews and
nobody should follow Torah except Jews. No surprise
that they misrepresent the NT scriptures and say that
Jesus fulfilled and did away with the law.

Not really on the same site this is what they say about Messianic Judaism. No reference to Jesus doing away with the law.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Messianic-Judaism.html

 

[big macher]

Well there is a difference between calling an MJ Christian, and talking about Chritianity in general. Most MJ's prefer to be referred to as MJ's than as Christians, with obvious exceptions such as those MJ's who are members of regular churches. But most MJ's will speak respectfully of the Christian churches and Christianity. It is only the Hebrew Roots folks that put down Christianity, although we do have a few of those here in the forum.

I agree since Hebrew roots condemn Christianity what I see a lot is also Hebrew roots folks condemn the deity of Jesus because they condemn Christianity. I also see a lot of condemning Jewish tradition. Hebrew roots folks seem to be primarily non Jews who believe in 2 house theology.

 

[Open Heart]

Ok the 1st thing that pops up is MJ is a sect of Judaism. Are we talking about Judaism of today?

If we are talking about Messianic Judaism, then the answer is yes. MJ borrows from the Talmud, with its celebration of Chanukah, lighting of Sabbath candles, no transferring of a flame on shabbat, kiddish and havdalah, birkat hamazon, avoiding meat and dairy at the same time, Bar Mitvot, reading of the sages with respect, and other things. IOW it patterns after the Jewish traditions of today. http://ourrabbis.org/main/halakhah-mainmenu-26/introduction-mainmenu-27

If we are talking about Messianism, the answer is that it usually rejects the Talmud and prides itself in being Bible only, with very few exceptions.

 

[Open Heart]

I agree since Hebrew roots condemn Christianity what I see a lot is also Hebrew roots folks condemn the deity of Jesus because they condemn Christianity. I also see a lot of condemning Jewish tradition. Hebrew roots folks seem to be primarily non Jews who believe in 2 house theology.

Two House theology is not considered MJ, not by a long shot.

 

[BukiRob]

Actually the anti-Christian sentiment is a Hebrew Roots phenomenon, not an MJ thing.

I see this a lot.... a real tendency to lump the Hebrew Roots Movement in with Messianic.

Another troubling thing is when people try to lump you in with hating the church or "christianity" when what you hate is not them or the church but rather ERROR.

 

[BukiRob]

Ah. Any time that I've used the word Christian here, I've been chastised. I figured it was an MJ thing.

Lets be frank here... Messianic Judaism identifies itself as a sect of JUDIASM.

Christians (the INSTITUTION) does not want them because it is percieved as being about "working for your salvation."

Judaism rejects it because it calls it Christian

Both groups are wrong

 

[big macher]

If we are talking about Messianic Judaism, then the answer is yes. MJ borrows from the Talmud, with its celebration of Chanukah, lighting of Sabbath candles, no transferring of a flame on shabbat, kiddish and havdalah, birkat hamazon, avoiding meat and dairy at the same time, Bar Mitvot, reading of the sages with respect, and other things. IOW it patterns after the Jewish traditions of today. http://ourrabbis.org/main/halakhah-mainmenu-26/introduction-mainmenu-27

If we are talking about Messianism, the answer is that it usually rejects the Talmud and prides itself in being Bible only, with very few exceptions.

Any resources out there about the scattered Messianic Jews like 1st-2nd century and whether or not the Messisnic Jews still submitted under the Pharisees that went to Yavneh. Whether or not they had their own synagogues etc?