Ending Hyper Futurism with one verse

[Douggg]

Doug, your late theory about the disciples understanding of the Gospel is OK to mention as long as you show that thousands did understand before them. Jn. 8:31; 12:12-19. And please notice the expression "the whole world." It's Israel.

Hi Inter, they did have an understanding that God was going to send them a great King who would teach them righteousness and free them from the occupation of the gentiles, but not understanding that the messiah would die for propitiation of their sins, in a way that they would be justified in God's sight and have eternal life.

I was watching the Perry Stone/Sid Roth tape in the other thread, and it was interesting that Perry Stone said that Revelation was about Jesus becoming as our King of the Earth. He is currently our High Priest in heaven.

Which would make some sense because of what it says in Psalms 2.

Psalms 2 starts off with what it appears to be the armies of the assembled at Armageddon prepared to stop Jesus from returning and taking His place as King over the Earth, ruling and reigning from Jerusalem.

2 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.[my comment - as King]
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

 

[parousia70]

Your error is imagining that this applied only to the first century church at Sardis. It was indeed originally addressed to them. But you have zero evidence (other than your chosen system of interpretation) to claim that it only applied to them during the first century.

Show me where I say it ONLY applied to them.
I believe it had PRIMARY application to them, but it also has secondary or perhaps even tertiary application to Christians of successive generations.

It is The Hyper futurist that insists it had ZERO application to the 1st century Church, a position I reject completely..... though it seems you believe it WAS applicable to them...

if so, HOW would you say it applied TO THEM?

 

[parousia70]

So you are ignoring a few possibilities here:

1) Christ is referring to a spiritual coming in judgment for these 1st century people

2) The "church of Sardis" may represent both the 1st century congregation and a part of the church universal.

Make no mistake, I wholeheartedly AFFIRM your possibility #1, as well as #2.

It's this language of the thiefs coming that intrigues me.... Just how many comings of Christ "as a thief" does scripture teach will happen? 1? 2? 10?, 100? infinite?

 

[parousia70]

For the sake of the fact that this is fun, I'll throw in Verse #2 that effectively ends Hyper Futurism on it's own as well:

2 Thess 1 6-7 (OK it's 2 verses not one... sue me lol)

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

Here we have two possibilities:

1) the 1st century Thessalonian Christians are STILL TODAY being persecuted by the same 1st century persecutors and have yet to receive their rest from that persecution

2) Jesus did in fact repay with tribulation those 1 st century persecutors and has indeed given those 1st century Thessalonian Christians rest from that persecution AS PAUL PROMISED HE WOULD.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Interplanner]

to Dougg,
I would agree except that then you have the disciples misunderstanding what the "law" said Messiah would be (12:34) which is not the misunderstanding of 12:16. 12:16 is much more like the synoptics occasional "its meaning was hidden from them." Not so, 12:34.

All this is after 11:52, of course, in which even Caiaphas the priest sees both the need for the token death to placate Rome and the need for Messiah to die sacrificially and bring in the nations. I don't think you can find a passage which jambs the human thinking together against God's plan any tighter.

Sorry but I think Ps 2 is much bigger than one battle like Armageddon if that is going to take place as you imagine. How is that all Messiah's enemies, everything in the "principalities and powers" roster of Eph 6, is suddenly located in 10 sq miles of Lebanon??? The Rev says "blood was 5 feet high for 200 miles around". In modern times? Over the Mediterranean? Come on.

You can't have something like Ps 2 be about "Armageddon" and then in Acts 4 have the apostles and believers pray against all the folly of the nations, peoples and rulers against Messiah. Pray earnestly, vitally, directly. Not a chance.

 

[Douggg]

to Dougg,
I would agree except that then you have the disciples misunderstanding what the "law" said Messiah would be (12:34) which is not the misunderstanding of 12:16. 12:16 is much more like the synoptics occasional "its meaning was hidden from them." Not so, 12:34.

The meaning was hidden from them, not the act. Because in John 12:34 Jesus told them it was going to happen.

All this is after 11:52, of course, in which even Caiaphas the priest sees both the need for the token death to placate Rome and the need for Messiah to die sacrificially and bring in the nations. I don't think you can find a passage which jambs the human thinking together against God's plan any tighter.

It was not a "token" death. That is not in the verses. Jesus's death on the cross was not to placate Rome. It was to die for the sins of mankind.

Sorry but I think Ps 2 is much bigger than one battle like Armageddon if that is going to take place as you imagine. How is that all Messiah's enemies, everything in the "principalities and powers" roster of Eph 6, is suddenly located in 10 sq miles of Lebanon??? The Rev says "blood was 5 feet high for 200 miles around". In modern times? Over the Mediterranean? Come on.

You can't have something like Ps 2 be about "Armageddon" and then in Acts 4 have the apostles and believers pray against all the folly of the nations, peoples and rulers against Messiah. Pray earnestly, vitally, directly. Not a chance.

Psalms 2 is definitely about Armageddon and Jesus's literal return to this earth. In Acts 4, Peter and John (v19) used Psalms 2, only the first two verses, not the rest. It was not until later, when John received Revelation, that he would understand the fullness of Psalms 2.

Doug