Does the Bible Support or Oppose Five-Point Calvinism?

[Lazy_Proverb]

The nation of Israel did not choose their God, but God chose Israel for a very specific purpose -- primarily to bring Messiah to the world -- a Light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel (Lk 2:32).

But Israel by and large rebelled against God, against His Christ, and against His Gospel, thus Paul's lament (Rom 9:1-5): I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the serviceof God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

By the same token, had grace been irresistible, Paul would not have had "great heaviness and continual sorrow" since they all would have been irresistibly saved. After all, to them pertained the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the Law, the service of God, the promises, and the Messiah. Think about it! They had every advantage and every opportunity, but the majority remained unsaved. The strongest evidence against Five Point Calvinism is Israel!

Zechariah chapter 12 to chapter 14 would help you a great deal to understand how wrong you are.

 

[FreeGrace2]

...agreed, but it's a big jump for it to be inferred that He did not choose our salvation inheritance for us.

Of course God chose salvation for those who believe in His Son. We see that in 1 Cor 1:21 - 1For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Zechariah chapter 12 to chapter 14 would help you a great deal to understand how wrong you are.

Why cite a Bible passage and then cut to MacArthur? As if he is the 'last word' on the text??

And why disagree with Job8 regarding the FACT that most of Israel rejected their Messiah, even from the earliest times. There was much rebellion, which led to a number of dispersions throughout Israel's history.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The apostles..to whom this is addressed.. did not believe before they were chosen ..

There is no evidence of that. To the contrary, they were devout Jews who were awaiting the Messiah. They just didn't know He would come as "Jesus".

Prior to Jesus' arrival, people were saved by believing in the Messiah. This is easily shown by the response of Simeon in Luke 2:23-32.

When Jesus arrived on scene, it was necessary for the Jews to believe that He was the Messiah (Christ).

 

[rnmomof7]

There is no evidence of that. To the contrary, they were devout Jews who were awaiting the Messiah. They just didn't know He would come as "Jesus".

Prior to Jesus' arrival, people were saved by believing in the Messiah. This is easily shown by the response of Simeon in Luke 2:23-32.

When Jesus arrived on scene, it was necessary for the Jews to believe that He was the Messiah (Christ).

They were not looking for an eternal savior they were looking for a political one to reclaim the throne of David..

Luke 1: 71, 73, “That we would be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us,” and “To grant that we, being rescued from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us

Peter said, "Are you now going to restore the kingdom" (Acts 1:6).

 

[FreeGrace2]

They were not looking for an eternal savior they were looking for a political one to reclaim the throne of David..

Primarily the ones who rejected Jesus as Messiah. Didn't you read the account of Simeon? Why not?

Luke 1: 71, 73, “That we would be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us,” and “To grant that we, being rescued from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us

Peter said, "Are you now going to restore the kingdom" (Acts 1:6).

Sure, the prevalent thinking was that the Messiah would rescue them from their political enemies, primarily Rome. But not Simeon. Nor a lot of others.

What verse indicates that Jesus chose any of the 12 disciples for salvation? We know that Judas was Satan indwelt and went to destruction as an unbeliever.

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

Why cite a Bible passage and then cut to MacArthur? As if he is the 'last word' on the text??

Did I write that? That MacArthur is the last word on the text?
Please show me where I said that.
Meanwhile, as I said it would do you a great service to read those chapters of Zechariah. MacArthur is simply there to teach Job8 how wrong he is about Israel and the 5 points of Calvinism that he referred to.

 

[EmSw]

I have great heaviness and sadness for the non elect.. I do not want people I love here to go to hell .

But what I know is Gods righteousness will always choose correctly ..

I have great concern for people that can not rightly divide the word of God.. and understand things like Gods election of Israel

How is it you have great heaviness and sadness for the non-elect and God doesn't? What do you possess that God doesn't?

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

How is it you have great heaviness and sadness for the non-elect and God doesn't? What do you possess that God doesn't?

Bible readers know that rnmomof7 and God possess the same characteristics in that respect.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

No the totality of the Bible does not support all five points. You can read Jordan Cooper's essays on why its wrong on 3 points: limited atonment, irrisistible grace, and persevearance of the saints. You/one would have to assume that the people who fell away in the new testament were never Elect that were lectured by Paul, etc. Why warn people with law if they were elect? I would encourage them with gospel. Therefore, the passages I disagree with Calvinists are because they are not seeing the law/gospel distinction in lutheranism and the idea of telling people what they need to hear at a particular moment in time. An elect can fall away.

The Law/Gospel distinction is also extremely important within Calvinism, to the exact same degree as in Lutheranism.

Also, you're going to tick off a lot of us by implying that because we believe in predestination and election we cannot believe in evangelism. Not true at all. Most of the greatest modern evangelists were heavily Calvinist.

Right. 2 Tim 4:14 "Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm"
2 Tim 4:9 "Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thesaloniki."

Could have fooled Paul! Just shows that one must persevere to STAY elect.

Where does he say they were elect to begin with?

I'm just saying that from a Lutheran point of view; the fear of whether one is elect is the main reason why calvinists are more sanctification (works based); it is relevant in general. Now if you can explain to me how Demas was not elect even though he appears Colossians 4 and Philemon and throughout obviously supported Paul; thought that he himself was elect the whole time; how exactly was he never saved? I don't interpret 1 John 2:19 that way. There is no word "elect" there. Hebrews 6 also looks like one could fall away (not sure if it was mentioned). If there is no risk of falling away, then why preach on it in Hebrews 6 then? I don't get it.

I suggest you return to page one and look at posts 2-6.

Also I agree with the idea of election but not falling away. (Can anyone of you guys reply to my Jonah thread, I really want a perspective on this from well informed Calvinists); As I'm sure you know, Jonah preached to the capital of Assyria and they repented; yet 10-20 years later Assyria was destroyed. Do you believe that none of those people fell away? Did they also die during that judgement?

I'll take a look at your thread.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

It seems many think Eph 1:4 God choosing who will believe, it's quite the opposite. It's believers who He has chosen.

So does one choose to believe, or is faith given by God?

 

[Lazy_Proverb]

Right. 2 Tim 4:14 "Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm"
2 Tim 4:9 "Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thesaloniki."

Could have fooled Paul! Just shows that one must persevere to STAY elect.

No, it wasn't a matter of Paul being fooled.
Perseverance of the Saints doesn't refer to the Saints perservering in God. But rather God persevering in us!

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Joshua 24:15
And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil." [Jeremiah 13:23]

 

[EmSw]

They were not looking for an eternal savior they were looking for a political one to reclaim the throne of David..

Luke 1: 71, 73, “That we would be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us,” and “To grant that we, being rescued from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us

Peter said, "Are you now going to restore the kingdom" (Acts 1:6).

Why would they be looking for a savior, when they already had one? Who was their Savior, the Father or the Son?

Psalm 106:21
They forgot God their Savior, Who had done great things in Egypt

Isaiah 43:3
For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;

Isaiah 45:15
Truly You are God, who hide Yourself, O God of Israel, the Savior!

Isaiah 45:21
Tell and bring forth your case; yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me.

Isaiah 49:26
I will feed those who oppress you with their own flesh, and they shall be drunk with their own blood as with sweet wine. All flesh shall know That I, the Lord, am your Savior, And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

Isaiah 60:16
You shall drink the milk of the Gentiles, and milk the breast of kings; you shall know that I, the Lord, am your Savior and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the Lord your God Ever since the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but Me; for there is no savior besides Me.

 

[EmSw]

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil." [Jeremiah 13:23]

Thank you for this verse. Those who are accustomed to do evil, CAN do good.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

By the same token, had grace been irresistible, Paul would not have had "great heaviness and continual sorrow" since they all would have been irresistibly saved. After all, to them pertained the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the Law, the service of God, the promises, and the Messiah. Think about it! They had every advantage and every opportunity, but the majority remained unsaved. The strongest evidence against Five Point Calvinism is Israel!

"What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory - even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" [Romans 9:22-24]

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Thank you for this verse. Those who are accustomed to do evil, CAN do good.

I'd read it again if I were you.

 

[EmSw]

So does one choose to believe, or is faith given by God?

Did you choose to believe, or were you forced?

 

[EmSw]

I'd read it again if I were you.

We're not talking about leopards, but about those who are accustomed to doing evil. Read it again.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

We're not talking about leopards, but about those who are accustomed to doing evil. Read it again.

Ok.

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin"

No.

"or the leopard his spots?"

No.

"Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil." [Jeremiah 13:23]