discipline can be rejected.

[fli]

Hebrews 12:4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:


"My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,


Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;


6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,


And scourges every son whom He receives." NKJV





There were times when I read the above, I wondered if I was a son of God. I could not remember God disciplining me. I remembered the discipline that my flesh and blood parents gave me. My mother would grab my arm with one hand. Then she would run me around a circle hitting me with the switch she had held in the other hand. That was discipline to me. God does not operate that way, at least, not at first.





If we through the Spirit put to death the sins of the flesh we are walking in the Spirit. Unless the Spirit does a miracle and removes a desire to sin from a person then the sin is removed by discipline. As an example, I was a very selfish and miserly person when I became a Christian. The Spirit started to convict me to be more generous. From when I came in till now, I would say that I am a very generous person. However, by God's standards I am probably still a old coot. The thing is, I am convicted which makes me feel bad and I change. That is discipline. So far it has not involved physical pain, as discipline did in my childhood, because ever so slowly I would change to be more generous. Since it did not involve physical pain. Just emotional distress, I did not recognize it as discipline.


To my remembrance I have never had in any church a lesson concerning discipline. If I had maybe I would have recognized it when it happened. I was told that the Spirit would convict me of sins but that was as far as it went. I was not told that| we could reject God's discipline with disastrous results.





Hebrews 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. NKJV





The context of the above scripture and all of Hebrews the writer is directing his comments to born of the Spirit messianic Hebrews (as attested to by chapter 6 verse 4 and chapter 10 verse 29). Some, or possibly all, have been told by God to expect discipline for the sins they are committing. In verse 12: 7 are sons of God who will endure discipline as all sons of God do. The writer speaking to the same people in verse 12 :8 is saying if you are without chastening you are illegitimate sons. God will threaten to chasten all sons of God when needed. Only legitimate sons will endure chastening. Illegitimate sons will not endure chastening by their choice.





Revelation 2: 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. NKJV





Some in Hebrews, as was Jezebel. have been warned by Jesus of their sins and told to repent. If , like Jezebel, they have refused to repent then Jesus will further warn them.





Revelation 2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. NKJV





Jesus will tell them how their discipline will progress through stages. They can repent at any time to avoid further discipline for that sin.





Revelation 2:23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. NKJV





If they chose not to repent the discipline will result in death. Since they did, through the Spirit, put to death the sins of the flesh they would be welcomed in heaven as sons of God.





Back to Revelation 2: 22 if they lost hope in Jesus, because they loved the pleasures of the world more than what Jesus offered, they opted out of discipline and became bastards.

 

[timothyu]

Reminders of why we need reject (for the Kingdom) the world man has make in our own image, are all around us and seen constantly on a daily basis. But as long as we remain trained by human tradition to act in those ways and do not see the harm we create for each other, there is not much chanced of recognition without reminders of how backwards we are as a people.

 

[fli]

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. NKJV


I certainly had a wrong impression about the advocating job Jesus did for His bride. The picture I had was of Jesus standing between ourselves and an angry Father protecting us from the Father's wrath. That is not quite how it works. To understand Jesus; role as our advocate we start in Romans.



Romans 8:9 b Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. NKJV



We must have the Spirit of Jesus to be born again an to be in the kingdom of God. As long we have saving faith, we have the Spirit of Jesus.



Romans 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. NKJV



If we have the Spirit of Jesus our physical body is dead if we sin but because we have the Spirit of Jesus, we have eternal life in heaven guaranteed because of His righteousness.



Romans 8:9 a but you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. NKJV



If we are (walking) in the Spirit, we have the Spirit of God in us. I have always been taught if we are doing what the Spirit is telling us to do we are walking in the Spirit.



Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. NKJV



Remember back in Romans 8:10 above the scripture stated our body was dead because of sin. As long as we are in our body we cannot stop sinning. However, as long as we are listening to the Spirit of Jesus as He tells us what we must do to put to death the sins of the flesh (walking in the Spirit) we get the Spirit He who raised Jesus from the dead. Galatians 1:1 and other places Paul stated that the Father raised Jesus from the dead. Back in Romans 8:10 above Paul wrote that we had the Spirit of God if we were in the Spirit. We have the Spirit of the Father, the Spirit of Jesus and the Holy Spirit in us if we are walking in the Spirit. Jesus our advocate must convince the Father to remain in us to keep our physical bodies alive.

 

[fli]

One role of Jesus; advocacy is to keep the Spirit of the Father residing in us to keep our physical bodies alive. We are heaven ready the minute we become born of the Spirit. We are left here to help Jesus, and/or ourselves.


Colossians 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, NKJV.


I have always been taught that Jesus did it all. If He did it all what was left for Paul to do.


Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. NKJV



The first “fill up *” for Jesus by Paul, as also with us, is to be a witness for Jesus and carry the gospel to the world. The second mission is to teach the new converts to obey all the things that Jesus has commanded. Paul did this very well. His letters have taught the church down through the ages. For anyone to be an effective witnesses and teachers they need to be be in the Spirit. If we are not in the Spirit, we might be using the right words to witness and teach but our actions would be sending a different message.


( fill up*) [in a previous post – God fulfills for our sins_- I stated that God uses our obedience to fulfill the law of sin and death.


Romans 8:3 He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. NKJV


God's using our obedience to fulfill the law of sin and death has nothing to do with our salvation. If it did then it would be a works based salvation. What God's fulfilling does is to cover for the time in Jesus that He lets us live physically, when we entered salvation God looks on us as having died with Jesus. A dead person cannot sin whereas we obviously do sin. From salvation until we actually die, we are continually sinning. God fulfilling for our sins gives us time to earn rewards not to earn salvation. God fulfills for our sins as long as we fill up in our bodies what is lacking in Jesus' suffering. As long as we are in the Spirit, we are doing something to help Jesus, the church and ourselves. ]



If we are heaven ready when we enter Jesus, why does God need to discipline us?


1 Peter 4:1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. NKJV



The more we suffer in the flesh the more we can carry out God's will.



2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. NKJV



The more we cleanse ourselves from sin the more responsibility God can give us. This means we go beyond what the Spirit convicts us of and we identify our own sins to kill the sins of our flesh. Those who go beyond are the ones God can trust with more of His work. The more God can trust a person in this world the more that person can be trusted in the world to come.


Colossians 2:20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations — 21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," 22 which all concern things which perish with the using — according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. NKJV


You must make sure not to kill the body to kill the sins. That way is not very effective. Elimination of the opportunity to sin is not very effective in killing the desire to sin in our hearts. That will only help if we work with the Spirit to change the wants of our heart.


1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing. 4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. NKJV


We must do all things with love, We must learn to love God with all our heart, love our brethren as Jesus loved us and to love the sinner as we love ourselves.

 

[fhansen]

Hebrews 12:4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:


"My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,


Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;


6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,


And scourges every son whom He receives." NKJV





There were times when I read the above, I wondered if I was a son of God. I could not remember God disciplining me. I remembered the discipline that my flesh and blood parents gave me. My mother would grab my arm with one hand. Then she would run me around a circle hitting me with the switch she had held in the other hand. That was discipline to me. God does not operate that way, at least, not at first.





If we through the Spirit put to death the sins of the flesh we are walking in the Spirit. Unless the Spirit does a miracle and removes a desire to sin from a person then the sin is removed by discipline. As an example, I was a very selfish and miserly person when I became a Christian. The Spirit started to convict me to be more generous. From when I came in till now, I would say that I am a very generous person. However, by God's standards I am probably still a old coot. The thing is, I am convicted which makes me feel bad and I change. That is discipline. So far it has not involved physical pain, as discipline did in my childhood, because ever so slowly I would change to be more generous. Since it did not involve physical pain. Just emotional distress, I did not recognize it as discipline.


To my remembrance I have never had in any church a lesson concerning discipline. If I had maybe I would have recognized it when it happened. I was told that the Spirit would convict me of sins but that was as far as it went. I was not told that| we could reject God's discipline with disastrous results.





Hebrews 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. NKJV





The context of the above scripture and all of Hebrews the writer is directing his comments to born of the Spirit messianic Hebrews (as attested to by chapter 6 verse 4 and chapter 10 verse 29). Some, or possibly all, have been told by God to expect discipline for the sins they are committing. In verse 12: 7 are sons of God who will endure discipline as all sons of God do. The writer speaking to the same people in verse 12 :8 is saying if you are without chastening you are illegitimate sons. God will threaten to chasten all sons of God when needed. Only legitimate sons will endure chastening. Illegitimate sons will not endure chastening by their choice.





Revelation 2: 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. NKJV





Some in Hebrews, as was Jezebel. have been warned by Jesus of their sins and told to repent. If , like Jezebel, they have refused to repent then Jesus will further warn them.





Revelation 2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. NKJV





Jesus will tell them how their discipline will progress through stages. They can repent at any time to avoid further discipline for that sin.





Revelation 2:23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. NKJV





If they chose not to repent the discipline will result in death. Since they did, through the Spirit, put to death the sins of the flesh they would be welcomed in heaven as sons of God.





Back to Revelation 2: 22 if they lost hope in Jesus, because they loved the pleasures of the world more than what Jesus offered, they opted out of discipline and became bastards.

Yes, and this has been the historic understanding of the Christian church from day one as well.

 

[fli]

Yes, and this has been the historic understanding of the Christian church from day one as well.

Thank you. I did not know that. I'm always last to get the word.


As I stated earlier one of the purposes of Jesus' advocacy is to convince the Spirit of the Father to stay in a person even though the person is in sin. The reason we must have the father's Spirit in us is because he gives life to our bodies. Without His Spirit our flesh bodies would be dead because of our sin. Jesus will start to convict us of our sin and most Christians will start the process of sanctification by repenting of sin.


I stated in an earlier post that the reason we are left here on earth is to further His kingdom. That is not entirely correct. We further His kingdom by eliminating sin in our flesh and this is done by changing what we love. To eliminate sin, we learn to love God above all else, love our brethren and to love sinners as we love ourselves. The more we love the Spiritual things the less we love worldly things. The more we love kingdom things the more we invest our time and wealth in spiritual things. The more wealth we have in the kingdom the more we love kingdom things. We love God more, our brethren more and we have a burden for sinners. As our love continues to grows for the Spiritual the less we love worldly things. The more we keep adding wealth in the kingdom the more our sins disappear. That is sanctification. So we are left here to help grow His kingdom and in the process we become children that God is proud of. As we sin less and less the more God can trust us to more important jobs within His kingdom. Trust down here means He can trust us to more important positions when we get to heaven.


In the above process Jesus does not have to convince the Father to remain in a person. It's only when Christians do not want to repent of sins that Jesus really goes to work.

 

[fhansen]

Thank you. I did not know that. I'm always last to get the word.


As I stated earlier one of the purposes of Jesus' advocacy is to convince the Spirit of the Father to stay in a person even though the person is in sin. The reason we must have the father's Spirit in us is because he gives life to our bodies. Without His Spirit our flesh bodies would be dead because of our sin. Jesus will start to convict us of our sin and most Christians will start the process of sanctification by repenting of sin.


I stated in an earlier post that the reason we are left here on earth is to further His kingdom. That is not entirely correct. We further His kingdom by eliminating sin in our flesh and this is done by changing what we love. To eliminate sin, we learn to love God above all else, love our brethren and to love sinners as we love ourselves. The more we love the Spiritual things the less we love worldly things. The more we love kingdom things the more we invest our time and wealth in spiritual things. The more wealth we have in the kingdom the more we love kingdom things. We love God more, our brethren more and we have a burden for sinners. As our love continues to grows for the Spiritual the less we love worldly things. The more we keep adding wealth in the kingdom the more our sins disappear. That is sanctification. So we are left here to help grow His kingdom and in the process we become children that God is proud of. As we sin less and less the more God can trust us to more important jobs within His kingdom. Trust down here means He can trust us to more important positions when we get to heaven.


In the above process Jesus does not have to convince the Father to remain in a person. It's only when Christians do not want to repent of sins that Jesus really goes to work.

I see, and I agree with all or most of this. Either, way to remain in the Spirit, united to God, is a daily choice-and we can fall out of grace, out of relationship with Him if we prefer the flesh instead. It's never He who abandons us, but the other way around.

 

[fli]

I see, and I agree with all or most of this. Either, way to remain in the Spirit, united to God, is a daily choice-and we can fall out of grace, out of relationship with Him if we prefer the flesh instead. It's never He who abandons us, but the other way around.

You are right.


Jesus advocacy is to keep us alive, after we are saved, by convincing the Father not to depart from the Christian because of their sin. The first thing Jesus does is to inform the Christian of the sin and urge repentance. We know that in Thyatira Jesus is speaking to John telling him about the church there and Jezebel's sins. By John 14: 17 the world cannot have Jesus' Spirit which means Jezebel is a born again believer.



Revelation 2:20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. NKJV



Jezebel is not in the Spirit because Jesus has told her to repent of her sins. By Romans 8;10 she should be dead physically as she is sinning in defiance of Jesus' request to repent. Jesus must have advocated in her behalf. Revelation 2:22 Jesus will tell her what will happen to her if she does not repent. At that point she has 3 options. The first is to repent and put to death her sexual immorality. The second option is to continue in sin and endure to her death. The third option is to reject God's discipline and lose salvation. We will discuss each option in order starting with option 1.



Her best option is to repent. Does this mean that she immediately ceases all immorality? In some cases I'm sure this happens. Nothing is beyond God's power. I have heard of people receiving salvation and their lives make a 180 degree turn. I was an alcoholic and, compared to some peoples struggle with addiction, I had little to no trouble staying sober. Most people it seems must work with the Spirit to stop sinning. As I have stated earlier some of my struggles with sin lasted many years and many repentance's. Luke 17: 1-4 it sounds like He will stick with us even when all we can muster is a very, very,very weak struggle.



If she repents and puts to death this sin there are other sins Jesus will work on. We will never while in the flesh be without sin. Prepare to hunker down and struggle for the long haul. God will throughout our struggles give us kudos and hugs. We will receive great joy looking back through our struggles and see how much we have grown. We will be happy knowing we are pleasing Him.



To fully understand we must compare what happens to Jesus' words throughout the NT. He explained how believers of different mettle would react to different conditions in their life.



Luke 8: 11-15 Those Christians above the rocky soil will repent and fight the temptation to sin.(In Luke 8: 12 Jesus established that to be saved one had to believe.) In verse 13 the rocky soil believes for a while. They might have dropped out earlier but will not last past the temptation. The other 2 soils will struggle. In Hebrews 10: 33-34 the writer was encouraging some not to apostate who had been persecuted and had property stolen from them. They are at least in the thorny soil because they have endured persecutions and loss of wealth. .



Some of you by now might be saying that we are not saved by works; therefore, I am wrong about this discipline. Remember the second option, I said that Jezebel could keep sinning and endure to her death. If that is the option she chose, when she died she would go to heaven. 1Corinthians 3: 11- 15 Her works would be wood, hay and straw but the foundation of Jesus would get her to heaven. People can chose a no “good” works salvation. What they cannot chose, and still get to heaven, is to not love Jesus. If you love Him you will let Him discipline you to your death. However, you can chose to die later and have some good works.

 

[fhansen]

What they cannot chose, and still get to heaven, is to not love Jesus. If you love Him you will let Him discipline you to your death.

Yes, and I believe it's similarly correct to say that we cannot choose not to love God and neighbor and expect to get to heaven. When we see Jesus we see God, when we know Jesus we know God, when we believe in, hope in, and love Jesus we believe in, hope in, and love God.

“Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.” 1 Pet 1:21

And we cannot know and love Jesus without beginning to love our neighbor as He does. And, yes, love obeys the will of God, and works, for the good of His kingdom and the good of others, by its nature. And this relationship, this union with God that results in love, begins with faith. And so many verses in Scripture then begin to make sense and reconcile easily with all the others, such as:

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

Works of the law, done under the law, cannot save us, because they’re done by our own efforts, apart from God, and we have no righteousness apart from Him. Works of grace, performed under grace, are an intrinsic part of our salvation.

“You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2:24

The new covenant has nothing to do with relieving man from the obligation to be righteous, but has everything to do with actually providing the authentic reason and means to finally achieve that very thing, that righteousness, in union with God, a fellowship that man was created for and is lost without, incapable of being who he was created to be.

 

[fli]

Yes, and I believe it's similarly correct to say that we cannot choose not to love God and neighbor and expect to get to heaven. When we see Jesus we see God, when we know Jesus we know God, when we believe in, hope in, and love Jesus we believe in, hope in, and love God.

“Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.” 1 Pet 1:21

And we cannot know and love Jesus without beginning to love our neighbor as He does. And, yes, love obeys the will of God, and works, for the good of His kingdom and the good of others, by its nature. And this relationship, this union with God that results in love, begins with faith. And so many verses in Scripture then begin to make sense and reconcile easily with all the others, such as:

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

Works of the law, done under the law, cannot save us, because they’re done by our own efforts, apart from God, and we have no righteousness apart from Him. Works of grace, performed under grace, are an intrinsic part of our salvation.

“You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2:24

The new covenant has nothing to do with relieving man from the obligation to be righteous, but has everything to do with actually providing the authentic reason and means to finally achieve that very thing, that righteousness, in union with God, a fellowship that man was created for and is lost without, incapable of being who he was created to be.

It sounds like you disagree that a man can die under discipline and go to heaven as justified. Because God uses the Spirit of Jesus in His disciplining His sons, we have to be born again to be disciplined. By John 3:18 as long as we believe in Him, we are not condemned. If we are not condemned by God, we are justified as long as we are in Him.

Another proof.

James 2: 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. NKJV


Genesis 15: 6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. NKJV


Genesis 22: 2 Then He said, "Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you." NKJV


I don't know how old Abraham was when he believed God. After Genesis 15 Ishmael was born and Ishmael was 13 when Isaac was born. There was at least 26 years from the time God pronounced Abraham justified by belief until the events in Genesis 22. In the post God fulfills for our sins I explained how God fulfills the law of sin and death by our good works. Those works are used for rewards not salvation. Notice in verse 23 of James it states the scripture was fulfilled where God justified Abraham by faith. Therefore, God uses our works, and Abraham's works, to justify the law of sin and death because we have faith. These works are not used to justify us for salvation.


So you see a man is justified for salvation by faith alone. To justify the law of sin and death after we are saved God uses our faith and works. We are left on earth after we are justified to further Jesus' kingdom. In doing this we are sanctified. As we are sanctified our faith is perfected.


Genesis 22:12 And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." NKJV


God told Abraham that his faith had been perfected by his works. God did not say anywhere that Abraham was justified for salvation by works and faith in Jesus.


Romans 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness — indignation and wrath, NKJV


Verse 6 if God gave us according to our deeds everyone in Christ would go to hell. God uses Jesus' deeds to justify us. Verse 7 Jesus persisted in doing God's will. We have the righteousness of Jesus.


Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin." NKJV


Those being disciplined are being chastised because they are in Jesus. Even though they are in sin God does not impute sin to them. If God does not impute sin to them no one else can impute sin to them.

 

[fhansen]

It sounds like you disagree that a man can die under discipline and go to heaven as justified. Because God uses the Spirit of Jesus in His disciplining His sons, we have to be born again to be disciplined. By John 3:18 as long as we believe in Him, we are not condemned. If we are not condemned by God, we are justified as long as we are in Him.

None of it's guaranteed: man remains the wildcard while God is always faithful and true. We, OTOH, can turn away, can fail to respond to His discipline, to His grace. And this is why Scirpture warns and admonishies us to persevere, to be vigilant, to remain in Him, to refrain from sin, to be holy, to not turn back after coming to the knowledge of Christ, or tasting of the heavenly gift, all with eternal life at stake. This directive has not changed one bit under the new covenant:

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

 

[fli]

None of it's guaranteed: man remains the wildcard while God is always faithful and true. We, OTOH, can turn away, can fail to respond to His discipline, to His grace. And this is why Scirpture warns and admonishies us to persevere, to be vigilant, to remain in Him, to refrain from sin, to be holy, to not turn back after coming to the knowledge of Christ, or tasting of the heavenly gift, all with eternal life at stake. This directive has not changed one bit under the new covenant:

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

Yes, we are constantly warned to seek to be obedient. If a Christian makes a decision to disregard the warnings, they are playing with fire.

Romans 2:6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; NKJV.

You cited the above to prove I was wrong.

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. NKJV

In doing so you ignored the truth of the above. Do you believe that Christians actually deserve heaven? No! We get that because God gives us what we do not deserve through faith in Jesus. Jesus did everything needed to get us into heaven. We do not need to help Him. We will be fools not obey Him.

Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. NKJV

In ignoring the truth of grace then you ignored the truth of what comes with grace. Do you think that Christians do not deserve to go to hell? No! When God gave is grace He did not give us what we do deserve. Jesus kept us from going to hell all by Himself. We do not need to help Him. We will be fools not obey Him.


We are coming to a point in history when Satan will literally be walking about like a roaring lion looking for whom he may devour. Jesus' body must have the best weapon to fight him. The best weapon to fight Satan is the entire truth. I can only tell others what I believe God has shown me.

Matthew 7:26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall." NKJV


Above is a common theme in my posts. I don't ask anyone to believe me. Don't believe commentaries, your churches traditions or what other men teach. Read God's word and let God teach you as you do what His word tells you to do. While you are doing that, pray for wisdom and He will give it to you.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, we are constantly warned to seek to be obedient. If a Christian makes a decision to disregard the warnings, they are playing with fire.

Romans 2:6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; NKJV.

You cited the above to prove I was wrong.

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. NKJV

In doing so you ignored the truth of the above. Do you believe that Christians actually deserve heaven? No! We get that because God gives us what we do not deserve through faith in Jesus. Jesus did everything needed to get us into heaven. We do not need to help Him. We will be fools not obey Him.

Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. NKJV

In ignoring the truth of grace then you ignored the truth of what comes with grace. Do you think that Christians do not deserve to go to hell? No! When God gave is grace He did not give us what we do deserve. Jesus kept us from going to hell all by Himself. We do not need to help Him. We will be fools not obey Him.


We are coming to a point in history when Satan will literally be walking about like a roaring lion looking for whom he may devour. Jesus' body must have the best weapon to fight him. The best weapon to fight Satan is the entire truth. I can only tell others what I believe God has shown me.

Matthew 7:26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall." NKJV


Above is a common theme in my posts. I don't ask anyone to believe me. Don't believe commentaries, your churches traditions or what other men teach. Read God's word and let God teach you as you do what His word tells you to do. While you are doing that, pray for wisdom and He will give it to you.

I doubt that you'll take my advice here, but I ask you to consider my words. You're following traditions of men, based on private interpretations dating back some 500 years and conflicting with the teachings of the early church wherever it was established as well as the early fathers. Grace is not a get-out-of-hell-free-card as long as one believes.

Grace is the life of God in us, the righteousness that can finally accomplish what the law could not. We enter this life as we turn to God in faith, which places Him squarely back on the throne where only He deserves to be, as opposed to "dethroning" Him which is what Adam did. Adam became his own "god", living according to his own "morality", as if he really had any righteousness of his own. We're here to reverse that, to learn that, "Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5. This is a new righteousness, "not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9. So:

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22

"The law came in so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom 5:20-21

This theme runs all through Romans:

"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:20-22

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:1-4, 12-14

Read those verses carefully, objectively, for yourself, and you'll see how they're consistent with Rom 2:7 and you'll better understand the gospel. Again, the new covenant was never a reprieve from the obligation for man to be righteous, but the means to that very thing as we become children of God, and remain in Him which will produce much fruit. This is a unique relationship, but one that man was made for from the beginning, and that Jesus makes possible now as He reconciles us with God.

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33

Only God can justify man.

 

[fhansen]

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son." John 3:18

If we think that faith excuses us from the requirement to be and act righteously then we've misread the gospel. Faith and our actions-what we do, driven by how well we love-must not be separated...or we don't even know God.

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:7-10

We have to understand the gospel fully. There's no condemnation for those who believe because Jesus gives us the righteousness that, in and through Him, enables us to overcome the sin that would otherwise condemn us. If we say we believe but we're not overcoming sin and producing fruit then, whether we believe or not, it's worthless.

 

[fli]

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son." John 3:18

If we think that faith excuses us from the requirement to be and act righteously then we've misread the gospel. Faith and our actions-what we do, driven by how well we love-must not be separated...or we don't even know God.

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:7-10

We have to understand the gospel fully. There's no condemnation for those who believe because Jesus gives us the righteousness that, in and through Him, enables us to overcome the sin that would otherwise condemn us. If we say we believe but we're not overcoming sin and producing fruit then, whether we believe or not, it's worthless.

Let us use John's definition of sin that is at the beginning of the verses that you cite.

1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. . NKJV

Sin is lawlessness. The word translated lawlessness means transgress the law. A person has to be under the law to transgress it.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. NKJV

If we believe in Jesus, the law has nothing to do with our righteousness.

In the OT righteousness was not violating the law. If one was righteous, they were sinless because they did not break any law. The scripture above Christ is the end of righteousness for those who believe. Then how does a Christian get righteous?


Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin." NKJV

For anyone who has faith in Jesus God accounts righteousness apart from works. That means works have nothing to do with our righteousness as long as we have faith in Jesus. Which means good works cannot improve our righteousness. It also means that bad works cannot take our righteousness away. To answer your questions about 1John the above states our works have nothing to do with our righteousness if we have faith in Jesus. God imputes righteousness to us apart from any work we might be doing.


John 3:18"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NKJV


If a person dies who believes in Jesus, they are not condemned. God will only look at one item when someone dies: do they believe in Jesus. He doesn't look at any work(s). All God looks for is faith in Jesus. If they have faith in Jesus, they are not condemned. If they do not have faith in Jesus, they are condemned. God does not look at works even for unbelievers.

 

[fhansen]

Sin is lawlessness. The word translated lawlessness means transgress the law. A person has to be under the law to transgress it.

No, people who murder, commit adultery, lie, etc still commit unrighteousness.
"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:12-13

 

[fli]

No, people who murder, commit adultery, lie, etc still commit unrighteousness.
"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:12-13

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin." NKJV


If we have faith in Jesus that make us righteous. The only way to be unrighteous is to not have faith in Jesus. Our righteousness has nothing to do with any work we might be doing. If we murder someone we are righteous. If we commit adultery we are still righteous. Why? God does not impute sin to us. If God does not impute sin to us we are sinless.


1 John 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. NKJV


There is no sin in Jesus because God does not impute sin to anyone in Jesus. The only sin that counts is the sin God imputes.

 

[fhansen]

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin." NKJV


If we have faith in Jesus that make us righteous. The only way to be unrighteous is to not have faith in Jesus. Our righteousness has nothing to do with any work we might be doing. If we murder someone we are righteous. If we commit adultery we are still righteous. Why? God does not impute sin to us. If God does not impute sin to us we are sinless.


1 John 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. NKJV


There is no sin in Jesus because God does not impute sin to anyone in Jesus. The only sin that counts is the sin God imputes.

Jesus forgives all our past sins. He takes them away and certainly does not expect them to return. If we do stray back to the flesh in grave manner we know we can be forgiven again with a true change of heart and repentance. In any case, turning to Christ is a turning away from sin and the idols of this world. It is not a carte blanc freedom from the penalty of future sin. That would be absurd, a foreign gospel. We're to 'go, and sin no more'. To deny that is to deny the reason He died for you.

Works of the law will not justify you. That's nothing but an external show of holiness, not the real thing. Jesus tells us in Matt 5 and 23 that we must be clean on the inside first of all. Paul knew this while he was battling legalism, the notion that the removal of a little piece of flesh can make one holy, or that we can make ourselves holy by mere external obedience of the moral law, the commandments. Augustine was essentially battling the same thing against Pelagianism. Both affirm the absolute need for grace, but not for continous freedom from condemnation regardless of what we do, but in order to possess the "righteousness of God" that overcomes that sin, so that we'll do right. We must change, internally; we must begin to love with the love He's shown us and that only He can give, which is why, for example, He tells us in Matt 6:15 that God won't even forgive us our sins unless we likewise forgive our neighbor theirs. Read and understand the whole bible.

 

[fli]

I gave a brief description of what would happen concerning Jezebel's second choice. If she decides to accept the discipline and not repent. However, since we do not know what she chose let's go to a case where we do know that some Christians choose not to repent but still remained in Jesus.

To be in Jesus we must have saving faith.



Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. NKJV



To have saving faith what we hope for has to be found in and through Jesus.



Colossians 1:4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, NKJV.





As is stated in the above our love and faith is because of the hope we have in Jesus. If we do not have hope in Jesus, we do not have saving faith.





When anyone is disciplined, they have to be told of why they are being disciplined. If they are not told of the sin, they would not know what behavior to change. In addition to the sin, they are told what the punishment will be.





1 Corinthians 11:27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. NKJV





Verse 32 confirms that those being disciplined are not of the world. Therefore, they must be of the kingdom. Jesus told them of their sin. If you read chapter 11 verse 21, verses 27 and 29 the sin is getting drunk and disorderly during the Lord's supper. In verse 30 the punishment is: they will get sick and if they do not repent, they will go to sleep. Going to sleep is Paul's way of saying the Christian has died in Christ.





Jesus told them if they did not repent, they would die yet they still maintained hope in Jesus. If they loved the pleasures of the world more than what Jesus offered, they would have lost hope in Jesus. Those who went to sleep kept their saving faith and died in Jesus.





We find the process of how they died in Romans 8.





Romans 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. NKJV





To be a Christian one has to have the Spirit of Jesus. With just the Spirit of Jesus our physical bodies would be dead, As the later part of verse 10 states even though the body would be dead, we have eternal life since the Spirit is life because of righteousness.





Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. NKJV





In Galatians 1 verse 1 Paul credits the Father with raising Jesus from the dead. Therefore, the Father will give life to our physical bodies. If we are in the Spirit, there is no problem the Father is happy to keep us alive. We are producing fruit for Jesus while in the Spirit. If we are in sin, not in the Spirit, we are not producing fruit. The Father does not want to keep us alive without fruit.





John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. NKJV





Notice first verse 4 a branch has to be in the vine to produce fruit. Any branch in Jesus is capable of producing fruit. In verse 2 the term “every branch in me” applies to both the fruit producing and non-fruit producing branches. That means both branches are capable of producing fruit. Both branches are saved. Still in verse 2 a branch in Jesus not producing fruit the Father takes away. If the Father, the throws the non-fruit producing branch to hell it means Jesus left the branch for lack of fruit. That would mean it is a works-based salvation. Therefore, if the father takes the branch away for lack of fruit, He takes it to heaven. Which means if someone dies under discipline they go to heaven. They died of their sin. They did not repent.

 

[Mark Quayle]

To my remembrance I have never had in any church a lesson concerning discipline. If I had maybe I would have recognized it when it happened. I was told that the Spirit would convict me of sins but that was as far as it went. I was not told that| we could reject God's discipline with disastrous results.

Hebrews 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. NKJV

The context of the above scripture and all of Hebrews the writer is directing his comments to born of the Spirit messianic Hebrews (as attested to by chapter 6 verse 4 and chapter 10 verse 29). Some, or possibly all, have been told by God to expect discipline for the sins they are committing. In verse 12: 7 are sons of God who will endure discipline as all sons of God do. The writer speaking to the same people in verse 12 :8 is saying if you are without chastening you are illegitimate sons. God will threaten to chasten all sons of God when needed. Only legitimate sons will endure chastening. Illegitimate sons will not endure chastening by their choice.

Not to deny anything you said, (and well said, by the way), but a few thoughts: Hebrews 12:7 seems to me to give the notion of "undergo" as much as "to put up with" chastening. Verse 8 doesn't talk about rejecting the chastening, but being "without" chastening.

But then, on the other hand, the huge (and repeated) example of the OT children of Israel that repeatedly were subjected to punishment ("chastening?"), were, by type at least, sons of God, sometimes learning and other times rejecting the teaching they should have gotten by way of that chastening.

So, I'm saying, you are right, but I think there is more to it than that. Whether we reject it or not, does not mean we are or are not his children. That it should be typical of the legitimate children to accept and endure the punishment is self-evident. And that it is typical of the illegitimate to reject it, is also self-evident. But for it to happen to both, specially as simple consequence of their misdeeds, is normal. Yet God particularly does chasten his legitimate children, and does not fail to do so when they need it. And so the writer of Hebrews finds it good to exhort them to endure it.

I don't know the flavor of the Greek, there, but being bi-lingual I can well imagine, though the Greek word translated 'endure' is an active verb, and second person plural at that, the discipline itself is not by choice of the child, but the accepting of it for what it is, and IS to be endured as such, and (not just "put up with") —not just that one is being deservedly punished, but that it is indeed training, and should be accepted as such, and that, being given by the will of the father.