Jesus did not come to destroy the law

[SabbathBlessings]

My belief is that we are not under the law. Your doctrine is that we must obey the 10 commandments to be saved. I am citing scriptures that disprove the doctrine that Christians are under the 10 commandments. We should obey all that Jesus commands, but we are not under the law or the 10 commandments.


Here is another instance of a Christian in violation of the ten. First the background.


Acts 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens and went to Corinth. …............................................................9 Now the Lord spoke to Paul in the night by a vision, "Do not be afraid, but speak, and do not keep silent; 10 for I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city." 11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them. NKJV


Paul started the church at Corinth and taught there a year and a half. God testified that He had many people in the city.


Acts 18:24 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace; 28 for he vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. Acts 19: 1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, NKJV



After Paul left Apollos went to Corinth and taught there. The Holy Spirit speaks highly of Apollos in the above scriptures. The Corinth church was instructed by good teachers for over 2 years. They should have been thoroughly indoctrinated with all good teachings.

1 Corinthians 1:4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, NKJV


In addition to right teachings God had gifted the church all the gifts. The holy Spirit had blessed the church and made sure that the church had plenty of gifts for edification, guidance and right teachings.

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles — that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. NKJV


A man was having relations with his father's wife. He was guilty of breaking at least 3 of the ten. The church did not condemn him, they were proud of his behavior.


The church had all the gifts. That means that there were at least several with gifts who knew the young man was breaking the 10 commandments. The church had many Jews who did not need a gift to know that the man was breaking the 10. In addition, all of that the church had a long period of good teaching under Paul. Yet, the church was proud of the young man.

Everyone in Corinth who was encouraging the young man was guilty of breaking the first and tenth commandments.


1 Corinthians 5:3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. NKJV


Paul knew that the young man was breaking the 10. He recommended a procedure that is only for the righteous. Satan does not harm his own. If he did his kingdom would fall. Paul said that Satan would kill the man's flesh and his spirit would be saved. If his spirit was saved the young man would go to be with the Lord.


The church at Corinth was not aware that Christians were under the law, the ten commandments.


Romans 3:7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, "Let us do evil that good may come"? — as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. NKJV


That is what some in the early church thought Paul was teaching. If he was teaching that Christians had to obey the ten commandments such a misunderstanding would not have occurred.

So we are back where we started. Using Paul's out of context scripture that came with a warning 2 Peter 3:16 over the plain teachings of Jesus. I did not come to destroy the law- not one jot or tittle can pass from the law- therefore do not break the least of these commandments as one would be in fear of sin and judgement i.e. least in heaven. Mat 5:17-30


For the record, I never said we have to keep the Ten Commandments to be saved. The commandments are not kept to be saved, they are kept because Jesus resides in His saved ones and imputes His righteousness - Jesus kept all of the commandments of God, taught on them, told us not to break the least of them and when we accept His teachings and submit to His will He imputes His righteousness and the commandments are kept through faith and love and this is the result:

Revelation 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Which reconciles us:

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Anyway appreciate the chat, guess we will have to agree to disagree and wish you well in seeking Truth to His Word.

 

[fli]

So we are back where we started. Using Paul's out of context scripture that came with a warning 2 Peter 3:16 over the plain teachings of Jesus. I did not come to destroy the law- not one jot or tittle can pass from the law- therefore do not break the least of these commandments as one would be in fear of sin and judgement i.e. least in heaven. Mat 5:17-30


For the record, I never said we have to keep the Ten Commandments to be saved. The commandments are not kept to be saved, they are kept because Jesus resides in His saved ones and imputes His righteousness - Jesus kept all of the commandments of God, taught on them, told us not to break the least of them and when we accept His teachings and submit to His will He imputes His righteousness and the commandments are kept through faith and love and this is the result:

Revelation 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Which reconciles us:

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Anyway appreciate the chat, guess we will have to agree to disagree and wish you well in seeking Truth to His Word.

I'm sorry. I got the wrong impression.

Jesus plain text teachings are all in the gospels. He was teaching to people under the law. He was under the law and had to teach the law.

Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. NKJV

God had ordained the Jewish government under Roman authority. Jesus taught that they must do as they said. After Jesus died the Apostles tried not to offend but they followed Jesus' new covenant. They were directly under Jesus, not the scribes, Pharisees or Priests or the old covenant.

We should obey His teachings. We are not under the law or the 10 commandments. We have the righteousness of Jesus if we are walking in the Spirit, or we are being ungodly.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I'm sorry. I got the wrong impression.

Jesus plain text teachings are all in the gospels. He was teaching to people under the law. He was under the law and had to teach the law.

Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. NKJV

God had ordained the Jewish government under Roman authority. Jesus taught that they must do as they said. After Jesus died the Apostles tried not to offend but they followed Jesus' new covenant. They were directly under Jesus, not the scribes, Pharisees or Priests or the old covenant.

We should obey His teachings. We are not under the law or the 10 commandments. We have the righteousness of Jesus if we are walking in the Spirit, or we are being ungodly.

It's such a sad teaching that churches are teachings in the millions that we don't have to keep God's law and free to sin. If there was no law, than we do not need Jesus and guess who is behind that doctrine 1 John 3:8 John 8:44. Not a good idea to believe the teachings of Jesus are for "other people" when He tells us to live by His every Word. Mat 4:4

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Whoever is not how one spells Jew.

There are not two gospels, just one, Jesus came to save us from our sins, Mat 1:21 Sin is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7. If there is no law, than we don't need to repent, therefore can't receive His mercy, grace and sanctification and a dangerous place to be come Judgement day Pro 28:13 Mat 7:21-23

 

[fli]

It's such a sad teaching that churches are teachings in the millions that we don't have to keep God's law and free to sin. If there was no law, than we do not need Jesus and guess who is behind that doctrine 1 John 3:8 John 8:44. Not a good idea to believe the teachings of Jesus are for "other people" when He tells us to live by His every Word. Mat 4:4

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Whoever is not how one spells Jew.

There are not two gospels, just one, Jesus came to save us from our sins, Mat 1:21 Sin is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7. If there is no law, than we don't need to repent, therefore can't receive His mercy, grace and sanctification and a dangerous place to be come Judgement day Pro 28:13 Mat 7:21-23

John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. NKJV


Why are men sinners according to Jesus in verse 9? When man repents of their not believing in Jesus they are not in sin. After that God will not impute sin to a person in Jesus. Does that mean we should sin? No! Does that mean we should not repent of our sins? No! It just means that all we need repent of to be saved is our unbelief.


The sin that sends people to hell is not believing in Jesus.


John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." NKJV


The work that gets people into heaven is believing in Jesus. If you try to do any other work to get into heaven you will not get into heaven. When you are in Jesus you are not in sin. If you believe in Jesus, you are not in sin. .


Sin means not hitting the mark. If we are not in Jesus, it means we are not getting into heaven. When we are in Jesus it means we are not being obedient children.


Once we are in Jesus His Spirit will tell us of what we should repent of. As good children we should obey. If we are smart we will obey.


1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. NKJV


If we were under the law and being disobedient, we would be committing lawlessness. All sin is breaking the law, but in Jesus it is being a disobedient child. He will not impute sin to us.


1 John 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. NKJV


The reason Jesus came was to take away our sins. In Him there is no sin. Does that mean that we do not sin?

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. NKJV


John has already said if say we have no sin, we are liars. So 1John 3:5 is wrong and there is sin in Jesus? No! In Jesus there is no sin because God does not impute sin to anyone in Jesus. None of this means that we should break the law.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. NKJV


Why are men sinners according to Jesus in verse 9? When man repents of their not believing in Jesus they are not in sin. After that God will not impute sin to a person in Jesus. Does that mean we should sin? No! Does that mean we should not repent of our sins? No! It just means that all we need repent of to be saved is our unbelief.


The sin that sends people to hell is not believing in Jesus.


John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." NKJV


The work that gets people into heaven is believing in Jesus. If you try to do any other work to get into heaven you will not get into heaven. When you are in Jesus you are not in sin. If you believe in Jesus, you are not in sin. .


Sin means not hitting the mark. If we are not in Jesus, it means we are not getting into heaven. When we are in Jesus it means we are not being obedient children.


Once we are in Jesus His Spirit will tell us of what we should repent of. As good children we should obey. If we are smart we will obey.


1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. NKJV


If we were under the law and being disobedient, we would be committing lawlessness. All sin is breaking the law, but in Jesus it is being a disobedient child. He will not impute sin to us.


1 John 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. NKJV


The reason Jesus came was to take away our sins. In Him there is no sin. Does that mean that we do not sin?

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. NKJV


John has already said if say we have no sin, we are liars. So 1John 3:5 is wrong and there is sin in Jesus? No! In Jesus there is no sin because God does not impute sin to anyone in Jesus. None of this means that we should break the law.

Are we to just ignore 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20 Mat 5:19-30 anything not of faith is sin, so unbelief would be included, but how does one believe in Jesus but not His teachings? According to scripture belief and obedience go hand in hand.

 

[One God and Father of All]

Are we to just ignore 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20 Mat 5:19-30 anything not of faith is sin, so unbelief would be included, but how does one believe in Jesus but not His teachings? According to scripture belief and obedience go hand in hand.

I don’t know what you guys are debating. It seems you both agree.

1. The 10 commandments are good.
2. breaking any one of them does not mean you lose salvation

where is the point of difference between you?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I don’t know what you guys are debating. It seems you both agree.

1. The 10 commandments are good.
2. breaking any one of them does not mean you lose salvation

where is the point of difference between you?

There is no scripture that says one is saved in sin. Heb 10:26-30 Sin is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7

One does not keep the commandments to be saved, they are kept because one is saved. There is a difference.

This is what scripture shows the fruit of a saved person.

Revelation 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

We need to have the same faith of Jesus. What did He do- did He keep the commandments and teach us to? He told us to live by His every Word, so not sure how one can profess faith, but not have enough faith to do what He asks, because He knows whats best for us.

 

[One God and Father of All]

One does not keep the commandments to be saved, they are kept because one is saved. There is a difference.

Is this a debate like Calvinism vs Arminianism?

 

[fli]

There is no scripture that says one is saved in sin. Heb 10:26-30 Sin is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7

One does not keep the commandments to be saved, they are kept because one is saved. There is a difference.

This is what scripture shows the fruit of a saved person.

Revelation 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

We need to have the same faith of Jesus. What did He do- did He keep the commandments and teach us to? He told us to live by His every Word, so not sure how one can profess faith, but not have enough faith to do what He asks, because He knows whats best for us.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? NKJV


Verse 29 the person is in Jesus.


Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. NKJV


Verse 6 if they fall away they cannot be renewed to repentance. One of the problems addressed in Hebrews is some of the messianic Jews wanted to return to the old ways. They wanted animal sacrifice, the temple and all the rest.



Galatians 2:18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. NKJV


Paul wrote in Galatians that if he “built again those things which I destroyed” that he would be a transgressor. If he returned to the OT ways, working the law, animal sacrifice and etc, he would become a transgressor. To be a transgressor one transgresses the law. What law would he transgress?


John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. NKJV


If Paul put his faith in working the law and etc. Then he would transgress the above law. He would no longer believe in Jesus. He would have rejected Jesus. He would lose salvation and there would no longer be any sacrifice for sins.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? NKJV


Verse 29 the person is in Jesus.


Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. NKJV


Verse 6 if they fall away they cannot be renewed to repentance. One of the problems addressed in Hebrews is some of the messianic Jews wanted to return to the old ways. They wanted animal sacrifice, the temple and all the rest.



Galatians 2:18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. NKJV


Paul wrote in Galatians that if he “built again those things which I destroyed” that he would be a transgressor. If he returned to the OT ways, working the law, animal sacrifice and etc, he would become a transgressor. To be a transgressor one transgresses the law. What law would he transgress?


John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. NKJV


If Paul put his faith in working the law and etc. Then he would transgress the above law. He would no longer believe in Jesus. He would have rejected Jesus. He would lose salvation and there would no longer be any sacrifice for sins.

I don't think we read scripture the same way. God is the Judge of everyone, not just Jews. Gentiles don't get a pass to do whatever they want- God does not have double standards. Like I said we will have to agree to disagree. Thanks for the chat.

 

[fli]

I don't think we read scripture the same way. God is the Judge of everyone, not just Jews. Gentiles don't get a pass to do whatever they want- God does not have double standards. Like I said we will have to agree to disagree. Thanks for the chat.

I didn't say it applied only to the Jews. The book of Hebrews applies to all Israelis which means it applies to us. Anyone who is saved can lose salvation by the same way.

Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. NKJV

Some Galatians were talked into getting circumcised. Paul said if they did then they would be estranged from Christ. In other words, they would have lost salvation. It would be the same as my last post.


Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. NKJV

We are saved through our faith in Jesus. Above is the definition of saving faith. When we first hear the gospel and hear of Jesus it gives us hope in Him.

Colossians 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. NKJV

Jesus will keep us holy and blameless if we continue in the faith not moved away from the hope in the gospel.

Colossians 1:4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, NKJV

If we are moved away from the hope we lose our saving faith. Jesus can no longer keep us against our will. There are 2 ways, at least,that we can lose our hope. The first way is to start trusting in something else to get us into heaven. That is to start trusting in your own work. Like the Galatians and messianic Jews.


The second way to lose hope is to love the world more than Jesus. If one rejects discipline, it is because they love the world and do not want to give up what Jesus tells them to quit. That is the 2 ways that I know to lose salvation.

May God bless your further discussions.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Are you trying to make the case that if we have faith in Jesus, we would not do the things He asks, like keep His commandments through love and faith? Faith does not void the law, it establishes it. Rom 3:31

We can lose our salvation if we do not come to the Truth to God's Word. John 3:18-20 Many people prefer to stay in darkness, because their deeds are evil, then seek God's Truth. All the Ten Commandments does is show us our sin Rom 7:7 , just like a mirror- it shows us our deeds Rom 3:20. It also shows us God's version of righteousness Psa 119:172 so we are not depending on our own standard of righteousness because His ways are not the same as our ways. Jesus showed us the Way- He lead by example 1 John 2:6 and if we emulate Him by following His teachings and the example He left for us He will lead us on the narrow path back to reconciliation Rev 22:14. Sadly, like you stated most people do not believe His teachings when it comes to obedience to His commandments, they think its for "other people" when He showed the Way for all, but people prefer to stay in darkness.

 

[fli]

Are you trying to make the case that if we have faith in Jesus, we would not do the things He asks, like keep His commandments through love and faith? Faith does not void the law, it establishes it. Rom 3:31

We can lose our salvation if we do not come to the Truth to God's Word. John 3:18-20 Many people prefer to stay in darkness, because their deeds are evil, then seek God's Truth. All the Ten Commandments does is show us our sin Rom 7:7 , just like a mirror- it shows us our deeds Rom 3:20. It also shows us God's version of righteousness Psa 119:172 so we are not depending on our own standard of righteousness because His ways are not the same as our ways. Jesus showed us the Way- He lead by example 1 John 2:6 and if we emulate Him by following His teachings and the example He left for us He will lead us on the narrow path back to reconciliation Rev 22:14. Sadly, like you stated most people do not believe His teachings when it comes to obedience to His commandments, they think its for "other people" when He showed the Way for all, but people prefer to stay in darkness.

I believe that we have different ideas on grace and mercy. Your doctrine seems be, we only get grace and mercy as long as we work for it. We will probably not come to an agreement. God bless.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I believe that we have different ideas on grace and mercy. Your doctrine seems be, we only get grace and mercy as long as we work for it. We will probably not come to an agreement. God bless.

We receive mercy when we repent for our sins. It means one has a sorry heart for sinning and breaking God's law and it also means a change in direction. Jesus has more mercy than we have sins, but when He heals, He said go and sin no more John 8:11 not go and keep sinning. Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21, we are not saved in our sins. If Jesus resides in us, we would be keeping His law based on His strength John 14:15-18, if we are hostile to His law- its really not a good sign. Rom 8:7-8. I agree doesn't seem like we will come to agreement- I believe the teachings of Jesus are for everyone as He is the Way and trust He means what He says even in Mat 5:17-30, the topic of this thread. God bless.