Did you really choose to believe?

[Daryl Gleason]

I want to believe very badly, but I can't simply choose to and make myself a believer. So I've been on a long quest for evidence in any form.

Wonderful! I appreciate the sincerity and wisdom in your words.

May I suggest simply talking with your Father as if he were there with you? You can ask him to make himself real to you (because he is the only one who can). Romans 1:20 says that God's invisible qualities are clearly seen in Creation, so you could ask him to help you see him in all of the natural things that are around you. The evidence of your senses, your ability to contemplate this topic, and your very life and spirit can be all that you need to believe if he will just open your eyes.

In Christ,
Daryl

 

[John Hyperspace]

What I can say is that the person who thinks they already know everything rarely learns anything because their heart is hard because they already know (or thinks that they know).

The Holy Spirit is the teacher of truth, but a person has to put themselves in a place to discover. If they don't read God's Word, then it is hard to know what God is about. Same thing if they do not pray and ask. If someone prays about something or for something, that is the way to find out things from God.

Usually if I have a question I ask about it, not keep along on some false belief, but then I study the Bible quite a lot.

I understand. If this was a case of me saying "my understanding of the bible is this" and you saying "my understanding is not that"; then I would gladly accept that it's difficult to discern which understanding is right. But, I'm also saying "and with my understanding of the bible, I also have self-evident self-experienced understanding": that is, I know by self-experience that I did not choose my beliefs, therefore that is true, and it must also be true that the bible cannot be teaching that which is untrue: thus, I understand the bible to teach this, as well as my own self-experience confirming it.

This is why no man has ever believed anything other than what seems true to him. Because he is compeled to believe what seems true to him.

You mention, studying the bible quite a bit which is good. And if your study reveals new evidence which causes you to change your beliefs, you will not "choose" to believe the new evidence, it will compel you to belief. Have you ever studied the bible, realized a true thing, then choose not to believe that revealed truth? This is somewhat a rhetorical question since, again, you cannot choose not to believe that which is evidenced as true to you; but you are compelled to belief by that evidence.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Well, again, this is self-contradictory by your own terms

It is self-contradictory, yes. And rhetorical. No one can choose to believe what is false to them; thus they can only "choose" to believe that which is true to them. Therefore there is no choice of will: the only "door" open to them is "that which is evidenced to you/that which is true to you"

I posted the above because, that is what is being claimed by one who claims they "choose" their belief. They are claiming they could have "chosen" to believe something that is not true to them; which is self-contradictory and impossible.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Therefore there is no choice of will: the only "door" open to them is "that which is evidenced to you/that which is true to you"

It might not have been your choice all the time,
and even now, it might not be.
But sometime it either was, or will be your choice.
Free will or not,
it is , was, or will be your choice.
YHWH removes the choice at some point.
(of those who continually reject HIM)
But those who turn to HIM to be HEALED, it is their choice,
even if it is not their free will. It is their choice.

Whoever GOT ON THE ARK WAS SAVED. Doesn't matter if they believed it or not. Doesn't even matter if they understood it or not. They were saved.

No one who did not get on the ARK was saved.
Doesn't matter if they had free will or not.
They CHOSE NOT to get on the ARK.
THEY DROWNED and DIED.
IF they chose to get on the ARK, they would have been saved. Free will or not.

YHWH alone can reveal what is in a man.
Maybe HE will.
Maybe HE won't.
That's HIS CHOICE.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Or, did the "evidence" compel your belief, and you had no "power of your own" to choose in these matters?

Depends on the evidence. SInce the "Evidence" about "Global Warming" is imperfect, and fraught with contradictions, then "Believeing it" as "Inside truth" (FAITH) would be impossible. I CAN have "opinions", but would NEVER be able to solidly Commit to one "Version of the absolute truth" or the other.

That 2+2 = 4 is an empirical situation, and NOT Believeing it would be impossible (If I knew what numbers were, and how they worked).

In the case of GOD - KNOWING THAT HE WAS THERE, AND WANTED SOMETHING, wasn't a "Choice" - When he came to me with Conviction of SIN - there was no CHOICE BUT TO ACCEPT that I needed to DO SOMETHING, or I was in big trouble if I should die in my "Unregenerate state".

But I DID have a choice to "Run away" instead - and did so several times (I'll repent LATER).

The practical problem is that you CAN'T just think to yourself "I'll repent now" - because the ONLY TIME "Repentance" is possible is while the Holy Spirit is convicting of SIN. it had been a LONG time in my life since the last time, and I wasn't sure that He'd do it again. so the decision/commitment was made, based on a fear of not being able to later.

You can "Reform yourself", of course, but it'll only hold till something better comes along.

If Lazarus had no choice in whether or not to heed the command of Christ to come out of the physical death, does anyone have a choice in whether or not to heed the command of Christ to come out of the spiritual death? Do we choose, or does God choose?

That's a SILLY comparison. I covered how it works above, but "Lazarus" is hardly a situation that's universally applicable.

Bottom line - GOD CHOOSES THE TIME DURING WHICH YOU CAN "MAKE A CHOICE". When HE's not "Drawing" - You don't have the personal ability to "come to Him". Simple as that.

I admit, I can see no other conclusion than that, everything we understand and believe and choose, is not of our own power. And when one asks, "Why doesn't the unbeliever believe?" or "Why won't the 'sinner' choose Christ?" the answer is, "Because he cannot do anything of his own power."[/QUOTE]

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Y'SHUA and all of YHWH'S WORD never did say to seek evidence in order to be saved from this evil vile and deceitful pernicious(death dealing) generation.

YHWH(GOD) said whoever(that includes everyone)
seeks ME(YHWH) and keeps seeking ME(YHWH) will find ME.
and Y'SHUA says simply
"No one (that includes anyone or everyone who does) who COMES TO ME(Y'SHUA)
will I(Y'SHUA MESSIAH, the SAVIOR)
turn away."

I hope so, but it hasn't happened yet.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I understand. If this was a case of me saying "my understanding of the bible is this" and you saying "my understanding is not that"; then I would gladly accept that it's difficult to discern which understanding is right. But, I'm also saying "and with my understanding of the bible, I also have self-evident self-experienced understanding": that is, I know by self-experience that I did not choose my beliefs, therefore that is true, and it must also be true that the bible cannot be teaching that which is untrue: thus, I understand the bible to teach this, as well as my own self-experience confirming it.

This is why no man has ever believed anything other than what seems true to him. Because he is compeled to believe what seems true to him.

You mention, studying the bible quite a bit which is good. And if your study reveals new evidence which causes you to change your beliefs, you will not "choose" to believe the new evidence, it will compel you to belief. Have you ever studied the bible, realized a true thing, then choose not to believe that revealed truth? This is somewhat a rhetorical question since, again, you cannot choose not to believe that which is evidenced as true to you; but you are compelled to belief by that evidence.

I don't think I have ever done that with scripture. I tried for about a year to study the Book of Revelation in the mid 1990's and I think that went off course because it is such a complicated book.

I really do not clutch on to any belief without checking out what the Bible has to say. I make myself aware of all the pertinent verses and then study it.

 

[John Hyperspace]

People have a very hard time humbling themselves and will do almost anything to avoid having to be humble.

Seeing as how belief in God is far and away much more prevelant than lack of belief, I would propose that your philosophy is skewed by a very biased generalization, and is unreasonable. In other words, it doesn't appear at all that "people have a very hard time humbling themselves" since the vast majority of people believe in God.

Assessing the data which the alternatives’ provide is not compelling one to action. The facts (data) are not beliefs, but knowledge, the believing part is what you do not have knowledge of.

Without the "data" of the bible there would be no Christian belief. Assessing "evidential data" is what always compels belief. What belief exists without "evidential data" causing the belief?

There is no data being provided to today’s unbeliever, that will force him/her to believe in a Benevolent Creator, but the most likely alternative between there being a “god” and there not being a “god” is that there must be a “god”. People refuse to believe in God for many reasons including pride, the way they are living, the changes they will have to make, family/friends, selfishness, and sin. People can in their hearts believe in a Benevolent Creator, but have to reach the pigsty of their lives (like the prodigal son) in order to come to their senses and be willing to accept pure charity from a Giver who paid a huge sacrificial price for the gift He is giving to them.

I have asked many atheists: How they would change if they had knowledge of God’s existence and would that knowledge make them happy?

All pretty much all said they would not change anything they were doing and would not want to know the Christian God existed because they did not like Him. With that attitude I do not see atheists even trying to consider the possibility of God and look any for support for God not existing.

How do you propose that "Every knee will bow, every tongue will confess" if there is "no evidence that would change an atheists mind"? Clearly your quoted propositions must be untrue, otherwise this prophecy could never be fulfilled.

As I said above: It has a lot more to do with “wanting” to believe and liking what you do believe, then actually believing. People like to be “loved” for how they want others to perceive them to be and not in spite of who they are (Godly type Love). Heaven is one huge Love feast of only Godly type Love, so if you do not like that type of Love you would not like heaven.

You may say "the atheists heart is hard" but this means, he will find the evidence "insufficient" because of his pride, etc. But, again, no matter the cause, he is still compelled to believe "what seems true" to him. Sufficient evidence would compel his belief, and it will at some point be given to every man, sufficiently compelling "every knee to bow, every tongue to confess"

We from our position do not know what Lazarus would want, but God/Christ would know what Lazarus would want to do and out of Love would provide what He wanted, so Lazarus wanted to go back to earth to help the people there.

The point is that Lazarus was compelled by Christ to rise from the dead, and he had no "choice" in the matter. This is likewise true of everyone who is "raised from the dead" both physically, and spiritually.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I hope so, but it hasn't happened yet.

What hasn't happened yet ?
What happened instead ?
(for clarifying)

 

[John Hyperspace]

Lazarus was apparently one whose hope was in God, so his flesh did rest in hope of being miraculously raised up. He likely had no sense of how much time had passed, but did most certainly welcome being raised up, (as that was a divine fulfillment of what he hoped for). He did not consciously choose to be raised up, but he chose to trust and hope in The Lord, that He would raise him up. Yet, it was The Lord's choice to raise him up when he did, as a testimony for others to put their hope and trust in His Power and Love.

I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. <---> Psalm 16:8+10

I'm happy for your belief; but even Lazarus' hope was based on evidence of some kind. Everything Jesus did was to provide evidence that He was the Christ. To some, the evidence was sufficient, to others it wasn't. To some, it seemed true, to others, it seemed untrue.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Yes . I went to a religion store, and bought my religion because it was on sale. Joking.

I was Muslim. Some Southern Baptist students came to my country, I was student, I loved teaching of Jesus . I believed. Like in some distant abstract, but very nice idea. No evidence whatsoever, of course .

So it was not looking and choosing but more like random chance .

Since you admit there was no choosing, then I presume that we can say, you didn't choose your belief.

But looking in my past, honest, I was foolish then. They gave me this marketplace form of Christianity. Shallow. Hypocritical. Twisted. Far from pure message of Jesus. CCC - Campus Crusade for Christ. Booklet, "4 spiritual laws". Book by Josh MacDowel "More then Carpenter". I was in it long years. Then read Bible, understood very different. I still go to same church, but my views uncomfortable fir people. But they love me because I love Jesus and do things for Jesus from my heart. But they hush hush what I think. Don't like. Bit sometimes they like to hear from me. Because I explain well and deep, and they see better. Sooo much there is existing teaching EXTRA from what Bible saying.

I hear you, brother; it's difficult for those who go deeper. "Hush hush"; I also know those words well. I'm glad to hear your story, and hope God will continue to bless you and reveal more of Himself to you, according to His will as you continue to seek. I hope the same for all; myself included.

 

[ToBeLoved]

How do you propose that "Every knee will bow, every tongue will confess" if there is "no evidence that would change an atheists mind"? Clearly your quoted propositions must be untrue, otherwise this prophecy could never be fulfilled.

This verse is about after Christ reveals Himself as God and people know for sure He is God. This is about the revelation of God to all. When it's all over.

When people see His glory and who He is, every knee shall bow. That is the way it will be.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Thank you for this thread, John; I find it quite interesting.

I haven't seen it mentioned here yet that there are two kinds of beliefs. For lack of better terms, I'll call them "head beliefs" and "heart beliefs". The former are those beliefs that have been formed because we have become intellectually convinced that something is true; these beliefs are entirely human in nature. And the latter are beliefs that only God can impart, written on the fleshy tablets of our hearts (2 Corinthians 3:3). These are things that we *know* but may have some difficulty articulating how or why we know.

Head beliefs can be quite dangerous. Religious convictions, for example, fall into this category, and they can lead to fanaticism, because religion as man understands it consists entirely of beliefs in the mind. Contrast this with God's concept of religion in James 1:27. Other examples of head beliefs include philosophies and political ideologies. Those with head beliefs may tend to treat others who do not believe as they do with not only criticism but also derision, ridicule, and even violence.

By contrast, those with heart beliefs wish ill of no one. They have no need for others to believe as they do (though they may feel sad when this happens), and they remain free to love others as themselves, generally as a way of living out these self-same beliefs.

It is true that our hearts are deceitful, but note that God himself examines both our minds and our hearts (in the very next verse); we can entrust our hearts to him (Jeremiah 17:9-10).

For cases where God asks us for heart beliefs (which, again, only he can impart), see Mark 11:23 and the famous Romans 10:9-10. Note especially in the latter that believing one is saved in one's mind is not sufficient; one must believe it in the heart, and that belief can only come through the holy spirit.

It appears as if this thread thus far has focused exclusively on head beliefs. I would submit that these are not useful at all when talking about matters of God. I have little interest in what man has to say about God when speaking of his own head beliefs. There is no life in these beliefs. However, I am quite eager to hear what man has to say about what God has put in his heart. This is why it is written, "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" (Revelation 19:10). Such a man's words carry, and are carried by, the holy spirit, and there is Truth and Life in them.

So, to answer the question from the OP, no I did not choose my beliefs; not at all. They were written on my heart by the finger of God through his spirit, and I could no more change them than I could deny them. Any beliefs I may have in my mind are inconsequential in light of his truth.

In Christ,
Daryl

Thank you for your words, I have considered them well.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I would like to, bow out, of the discussion at this point, as it seems timely. I hope I have offended none of you, I have enjoyed your dialogue whether we agreed or no. Thanks for participating. Freely continue without me, naturally; but I feel the topic has run its course - at least for me.

Peace.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

What hasn't happened yet ?
What happened instead ?
(for clarifying)

I've prayed, asked for faith, tried talking to God, attend Church regularly, read the Bible, read religious books, and so on. Nothing has really happened yet.

 

[redblue22]

I want to believe very badly, but I can't simply choose to and make myself a believer. So I've been on a long quest for evidence in any form.

Hi, I probably can't help, but I'm interested. Would you like to share where you are at now?

What do you believe now?

What is it you want to believe?

What might count as evidence?

I've prayed, asked for faith, tried talking to God, attend Church regularly, read the Bible, read religious books, and so on. Nothing has really happened yet.

What kind of happening are you looking to have?

 

[Geralt]

you dont choose to believe.
you believed thereby you choose.

I wanted to ask if you believe that you chose your beliefs, as opposed to, being compelled by the "evidence" to belief? As I look at my own self, I will admit that I did not choose what I believe, but that as I studied and understood, my belief was, in fact, compelled - that which I believe was irresistible to me.

But if you believe that you chose what to believe- could you tell me what were the alternative choices of belief that you could have chosen to believe instead of what you currently believe? For instance, if you are Catholic, could you have chosen to believe what Lutherans believe? If you are Christian, could you have chosen to believe as the atheist believes? Athiests, could you believe what Christians believe?

This question is open to all of every belief. So, did you choose what you believe? And, if so, what alternatives could you have chosen to believe, and why did you reject those alternatives in order to choose what you chose to believe?

As a bonus question for Christians: do you believe Lazarus chose to be resurrected from the dead? Or did Christ call him forth according to the choice of Christ?

 

[fhansen]

I wanted to ask if you believe that you chose your beliefs, as opposed to, being compelled by the "evidence" to belief? As I look at my own self, I will admit that I did not choose what I believe, but that as I studied and understood, my belief was, in fact, compelled - that which I believe was irresistible to me.

But if you believe that you chose what to believe- could you tell me what were the alternative choices of belief that you could have chosen to believe instead of what you currently believe? For instance, if you are Catholic, could you have chosen to believe what Lutherans believe? If you are Christian, could you have chosen to believe as the atheist believes? Athiests, could you believe what Christians believe?

This question is open to all of every belief. So, did you choose what you believe? And, if so, what alternatives could you have chosen to believe, and why did you reject those alternatives in order to choose what you chose to believe?

As a bonus question for Christians: do you believe Lazarus chose to be resurrected from the dead? Or did Christ call him forth according to the choice of Christ?

We are never completely overwhelmed by faith-we can always turn back away from God. IOW, the reason that our choice is involved is simply because we can refuse to believe, following our own way instead. This is essentially what Adam did. All sin, in one way or another, is an act of disbelief or a confirmation of that preference for ourselves over God, a preference to doubt God's existence.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

you dont choose to believe.
you believed thereby you choose.

Read again in New Testament.
Crowds came to see Jesus.
JESUS never turned anyone away who came to HIM for help.
Even Yochanan the immerser asked from prison "Are YOU the ONE ?"
People mostly did not believe, they rejected JESUS.
They chose to reject JESUS.
Not to believe.
Others, a few, decided to believe.
A few of HIS disciples decided to stay with HIM (most of HIS disciples left HIM; they went away, and HE did not try to stop them. )
A few of HIS disciples decided to believe, to stay with JESUS, to follow JESUS, to obey JESUS, to live by faith in HIM, trusting HIM every day, day after day after day.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I understand. If this was a case of me saying "my understanding of the bible is this" and you saying "my understanding is not that"; then I would gladly accept that it's difficult to discern which understanding is right. But, I'm also saying "and with my understanding of the bible, I also have self-evident self-experienced understanding": that is, I know by self-experience that I did not choose my beliefs, therefore that is true, and it must also be true that the bible cannot be teaching that which is untrue: thus, I understand the bible to teach this, as well as my own self-experience confirming it.

This is why no man has ever believed anything other than what seems true to him. Because he is compeled to believe what seems true to him.

You mention, studying the bible quite a bit which is good. And if your study reveals new evidence which causes you to change your beliefs, you will not "choose" to believe the new evidence, it will compel you to belief. Have you ever studied the bible, realized a true thing, then choose not to believe that revealed truth? This is somewhat a rhetorical question since, again, you cannot choose not to believe that which is evidenced as true to you; but you are compelled to belief by that evidence.

Are you very spiritual in your faith? By that I mean did you pray and try to form a relationship with Jesus or were you trying to be what you think Jesus wanted?

I'm not saying this is you, but what I have found is that many people do not nurture the spiritual side of their faith and this is actually the best part of faith. Getting to know God, seeking to find out more about Him, giving Him praise for all He has given you.

Many times the spiritual side is not nurtured and that is when I feel many people start using "logic" to understand or evaluate God, but God tells us that He has revealed Himself to us through His Word. And if one does not read His Word then it is really hard to know God and He WANTS a relationship with us. His death brought us back to God, we have God with us. The Holy Spirit to guide us.

I just wanted to add something about the spiritual side of belief because it is important. One should WALK WITH GOD, Not for God. That's what Jesus died to give us.