Did Satan Have Free Will In Heaven?

Yahu

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then why is it angel's food? food from heaven God provided ...

Because angels ARE physical beings just as you and I. Yes, they can come in just spiritual form just as we can be caught up to heaven in the spirit. That does NOT imply they don't have or can't manifest in a physical form.

Angels are physical beings. The 3rd heaven is a physical place that operates in space/time. It contains physical elements like gold. There is sound that is a vibration over time. People that turn the eternal realm into a purely spiritual location and populated solely by spiritual beings are clueless.
 
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mmksparbud

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Nonsense. Jacob wrestled with an angel and dislocated his hip. Three angles visited Abraham and ate a meal with him. The men of Sodom tried to grab two angels for sexual purposes. The pre-flood watchers, the 'ben Elohyim' of Gen 6 fell into error and took women for wives and had children that were giants and mighty men.

All those sound pretty physical to me. The concept that they are purely spiritual and lack any physical form is straight out of Greek philosophy that greatly influenced many early church fathers, specifically Augustine who shaped much of the early RCC doctrine.

Your doctrine is NOT based on scripture but on Greek philosophy.

I'll take what Jesus said regarding angels--When asked about the woman who had 7 husbands all of whom died, the question asked was which one would be her husband--Matt 22:30 and Mark 22:25 Jesus states that in heaven the angels neither marry or are given in marriage.
And please do not bring up that silly thing about that doesn't mean they do not have sex--God has ordained marriage for sex and if it is a sin on earth, no way is God going to say sex will be ok in heaven without it.
The whole thing of giants on earth were due to angels mating with humans is totally bogus, has nothing to do with scripture. The sons of God where men who followed God, the daughters of men where women who were not in harmony with God. There were giants on the earth as Adam and Eve were created perfect, and they were not 5' tall--the people were giants, just as they were also long lived, to over 900 years. Why does everybody assume that God created man as we are now? The whole concept of angels mating with humans comes not from biblical knowledge but pagan beliefs. Satan can not breed with humans, nor any of his minions--and neither can the angels that remained holy with God in heaven. They are seperate creatures, angels were created long before man, and then God said "let us make man in our image." The angels were not created in God's image.
Heb 1:5 "For unto which of the angels said he AT ANY TIME, thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?"
God is not the author of confusion--He created all his animals to produce "after their kind"--The angels are not sexual creatures and man cannot mate with non-humans and produce a--- gorrilla. 2 apes cannot mate and produce a human. This idea of angels mating with humans comes straight from the jealous heart of Satan for just one more thing that he can not do--procreate. So he has fed sordid little tales to those who do not follow God. He's still trying to be greater then he is.
And as for Sodom and Gomorrah--it was man who wanted to have sex with the angels--not the angels with men. Sodom and Gomorrah was grabbing anything that breathed to mate with right about then!
 
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ancientsoul

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I'll take what Jesus said regarding angels--When asked about the woman who had 7 husbands all of whom died, the question asked was which one would be her husband--Matt 22:30 and Mark 22:25 Jesus states that in heaven the angels neither marry or are given in marriage.
And please do not bring up that silly thing about that doesn't mean they do not have sex--God has ordained marriage for sex and if it is a sin on earth, no way is God going to say sex will be ok in heaven without it.
The whole thing of giants on earth were due to angels mating with humans is totally bogus, has nothing to do with scripture. The sons of God where men who followed God, the daughters of men where women who were not in harmony with God. There were giants on the earth as Adam and Eve were created perfect, and they were not 5' tall--the people were giants, just as they were also long lived, to over 900 years. Why does everybody assume that God created man as we are now? The whole concept of angels mating with humans comes not from biblical knowledge but pagan beliefs. Satan can not breed with humans, nor any of his minions--and neither can the angels that remained holy with God in heaven. They are seperate creatures, angels were created long before man, and then God said "let us make man in our image." The angels were not created in God's image.
Heb 1:5 "For unto which of the angels said he AT ANY TIME, thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?"
God is not the author of confusion--He created all his animals to produce "after their kind"--The angels are not sexual creatures and man cannot mate with non-humans and produce a--- gorrilla. 2 apes cannot mate and produce a human. This idea of angels mating with humans comes straight from the jealous heart of Satan for just one more thing that he can not do--procreate. So he has fed sordid little tales to those who do not follow God. He's still trying to be greater then he is.
And as for Sodom and Gomorrah--it was man who wanted to have sex with the angels--not the angels with men. Sodom and Gomorrah was grabbing anything that breathed to mate with right about then!

true, He is not the author of confusion ...

i disagree with you ... the concept is right there in the Word ... along with much about it ... God is faithfulk in presenting Truth ...

so we're not to liken wheat to His children and tares to the enemy? it's no different ... all things in scripture are worked around knowledge of agriculture and and His cosmic design of things ... it's why cows shouldn't be given hormones and chickens shouldn't be fed their own by-product ... because He didn't design it that way ... and in doing so in the past man has repercussions not of the Lord ... He designed angels and some fell bad ... a repercussion not of the Lord ...
 
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ancientsoul

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Because angels ARE physical beings just as you and I. Yes, they can come in just spiritual form just as we can be caught up to heaven in the spirit. That does NOT imply they don't have or can't manifest in a physical form.

Angels are physical beings. The 3rd heaven is a physical place that operates in space/time. It contains physical elements like gold. There is sound that is a vibration over time. People that turn the eternal realm into a purely spiritual location and populated solely by spiritual beings are clueless.

ty ... making sure i understood and hoped to help make the physical part more real ...

maybe not clueless ... maybe their eyes and ears haven't been opened yet :) ... one way of rightly dividing the Word ... yes ... the part about the third heaven isn't something i have knowledge of ... but, yes to the angels
 
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Yahu

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I'll take what Jesus said regarding angels--When asked about the woman who had 7 husbands all of whom died, the question asked was which one would be her husband--Matt 22:30 and Mark 22:25 Jesus states that in heaven the angels neither marry or are given in marriage.

They are already immortal, of course they are not allowed to marry and have offspring. They have no need of them.

That does NOT imply they are incapable of doing so. They would have to be in rebellion to do so.

That passage has NOTHING what-so-ever to do with proving angels have a purely spiritual form. It says they 'are not' while it does not say 'they can not be given'.

Paul also says for women to cover themselves in a congregation lest it may cause an angel to lust after them.
 
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Yahu

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The whole thing of giants on earth were due to angels mating with humans is totally bogus, has nothing to do with scripture. The sons of God where men who followed God, the daughters of men where women who were not in harmony with God. There were giants on the earth as Adam and Eve were created perfect, and they were not 5' tall--the people were giants, just as they were also long lived, to over 900 years.

This is the nonsense that was propogated by Augustine. It was not the Jewish understanding for thousands of years prior.
 
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Yahu

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ty ... making sure i understood and hoped to help make the physical part more real ...

maybe not clueless ... maybe their eyes and ears haven't been opened yet :) ... one way of rightly dividing the Word ... yes ... the part about the third heaven isn't something i have knowledge of ... but, yes to the angels

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
 
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mmksparbud

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This is the nonsense that was propogated by Augustine. It was not the Jewish understanding for thousands of years prior.


You're calling the word of God nonsense, do you realize that?? The bible says the people pre-flood lived to over 900 years--this is nonsense?? It says there were giants on the earth then--it doesn't say those giants were created by angels having sex with humans!! I don't know what Augustine says, nor do I care. And the Jews had a lot of things wrong, which Christ tried to correct. Like He plainly said that in heaven the angels do not marry or are given in marriage, and we will be the same. Sex is a gift from God for the purpose of having the species continue. Angels were created by God as His messengers. He made them, they did not have to have sex for the continuation of their species. And to think that God would allow a fallen angel to be able to mate with humans and produce a species of creature He never made is pure science fiction. God never allowed species to interbreed, He said each after His kind. Demon possession is not a mix of human and fallen angel DNA-- it is a fallen angel that has claimed a human body as his, Jesus caste out demons--7 from Mary.
What you are saying is that God allowed His created beings, us, to be a source of breeding for the fallen angels--that takes away our free will. And since we are created in God's image, you're saying that God then willingly allowed His image to be made over. They can take over our minds if we let them in, but they can be caste out by the word of God.
There is not one case of a human being born with fully functioning wings, there are no humans born with the 4 faces of bull, eagle, lion and human.
We are the temple of God and are to treat our bodies and minds as just that--we are not the temples of Satan. We can loose our salvation by choice, but not our DNA messed with by fallen angels. Whatever man is doing now, with genetics is not going to be allowed to go much further before God steps in and calls a halt to all our mischieve. We may be born with birth defects, but not a one of those is because of evil angels mating with us. That's too silly for words, and something that Satan wishes he could do.
Christ is our brother--and God has adopted us. We are not blood relatives of Satan. You want to think that we are, that's you choice. It's an insult to the very nature of God. Christ died for us, not for fallen angels!
 
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toolite

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Trick question?

Yah had title's not names prior to Yahweh as a name like 'Elohyim', 'El', 'Eloawah', 'Elyon', 'ancient of days'. After the flood, He also became know by the title El Shaddia. But none of those are NAMES, they are descriptive titles. For example 'El' does NOT mean God. It means 'the Mighty [One]' when used alone or just the word 'mighty' in some cases. In the paleo-hebrew it is just 'strength and authority'.

Here is an example how those words can be used and NOT mean God.

ps 82:1 God (Elohyim) standeth in the congregation of the mighty (El); he judgeth among the gods (Elohyim).
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods (Elohyim); and all of you are children of the most High (Elyon).
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God (Elohyim), judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Note how in verse 1 'El' is translated as the word mighty in this case because how can God stand in the congregation of God and judge God? These words are not names. Sometimes Elohyim is a reference to Yah, while other times to other 'mighty individuals'. Even angels can be referred to as 'Elohyim'.



Thats not true.. prior.. what was his name?

Glory To God
 
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Okieshowedem

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PSALM 82 Ps82 OT NT A Psalm of Asaph. 1 The Almighty standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. 5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 8 Arise, O Mighty One, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
I think if we would believe ALL that the prophets have spoken we would not be so mixed up about who the Devil really is.
Remember what the great apostle wrote in 2 Cor. 2:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious message of Messiah, who is the image of Almighty, should shine unto them.
This is what the great prophet Isa. said in chapter 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of Almighty: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Yes the Scriptures tell us that Satan is the god of this world.
Now we can believe the Scriptures and ALL that the prophets and apostles wrote to us are we too can be fools like the Messiah said in Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Okie
 
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Yahu

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You're calling the word of God nonsense, do you realize that?? The bible says the people pre-flood lived to over 900 years--this is nonsense?? It says there were giants on the earth then--it doesn't say those giants were created by angels having sex with humans!! I don't know what Augustine says, nor do I care. And the Jews had a lot of things wrong, which Christ tried to correct. Like He plainly said that in heaven the angels do not marry or are given in marriage, and we will be the same. Sex is a gift from God for the purpose of having the species continue. Angels were created by God as His messengers. He made them, they did not have to have sex for the continuation of their species. And to think that God would allow a fallen angel to be able to mate with humans and produce a species of creature He never made is pure science fiction. God never allowed species to interbreed, He said each after His kind. Demon possession is not a mix of human and fallen angel DNA-- it is a fallen angel that has claimed a human body as his, Jesus caste out demons--7 from Mary.
What you are saying is that God allowed His created beings, us, to be a source of breeding for the fallen angels--that takes away our free will. And since we are created in God's image, you're saying that God then willingly allowed His image to be made over. They can take over our minds if we let them in, but they can be caste out by the word of God.
There is not one case of a human being born with fully functioning wings, there are no humans born with the 4 faces of bull, eagle, lion and human.
We are the temple of God and are to treat our bodies and minds as just that--we are not the temples of Satan. We can loose our salvation by choice, but not our DNA messed with by fallen angels. Whatever man is doing now, with genetics is not going to be allowed to go much further before God steps in and calls a halt to all our mischieve. We may be born with birth defects, but not a one of those is because of evil angels mating with us. That's too silly for words, and something that Satan wishes he could do.
Christ is our brother--and God has adopted us. We are not blood relatives of Satan. You want to think that we are, that's you choice. It's an insult to the very nature of God. Christ died for us, not for fallen angels!

It is clear you have no knowledge of the spirits of the enemy realm whereas I have been in battles with high level principalities and their high priestesses of witchcraft. The primary principality I was in conflict against was the daughter of one of the four angels at the Euphrates that is released in the tribulation. She was just the ghost of a dead Nephlim, angelic/human hybrid. The ancient paganism has been my area of study for over 20 years as a result.

The ancient pagan gods were angels and their offspring that occurred after the flood. That is why those four angels were bound. They were bound at Babel for the error they caused. That paganism spread from Babel.

I have studied this topic for years including going back to bible college to learn to read Hebrew and paleo-hebrew.

Your doctrine is rooted in Catholic doctrine that was originated by Augustine.

It was in having children that the angels did fall. That is the source of the rebellion. Angels are created with fixed positions of glory and status. A man is born with no glory but gains status by overcoming error. We can achieve greatness that exceeds the angels. A low level angel that had children of high glory/status would still be an authority over his children. It was a way to elevate their status. It was due to jealousy of man that they fell.
 
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toolite

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I have given my understanding. If you disagree then provide your understanding so I can test it.

I didn't think you knew.. because if you did you wouldnt carry certain mindsets... I would encourage you to search... everything is written and made available to you its.. just how you ask is so important..

Glory To God
 
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Yahu

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I am asking this question because if satan was in heaven how could he be envious and demonstrate jealousy while in Heaven?

So I pose the question did satan have free will in heaven?

All The Glory Belongs To God Forever!

Well since all sentient life has free will I would say he had to have free will.

But which Satan are you referring to? Satan isn't a name but a descriptive title. It is like the court prosecutor in the divine counsel that is allowed to bring condemnation for wrong doing before the throne. That does not imply that the same individual has always held that office.

By my understanding the serpent in the garden was not the current Satan. That individual would have been locked up with all the other angels that fell into error at the time of the flood. Jude and 2 Pet 2 are clear that the angels that fell into error are in prison. It would be foolish of Yah to allow fallen angels to corrupt the world only to destroy it but leave the angels free to do so again.

I see the individual referenced as the cockatrice (whose offspring are vipers) as the 2nd Satan that filled that role from the flood until the tower of Babel when he was imprisoned with his followers.

The current HaSatan has held that position since Babel and was the son of the prior angel that held that position. Who we call Lucifer (in the Latin) is that son of the former Satan. It is by his status of being born on earth that he can hold authority because Yah gave dominion over the earth to man.

People misunderstand a reference in Eze 28 to equate the 'king of Tyre' with being the serpent in the garden just because Eden is mentioned. The problem is where is the tree of life now located? There was an earthly Eden but there is still a heavenly Eden. Which Eden did he walk in? We know he has access to walk in the heavenly realm now to bring accusations before the throne just as he did to Job. He walks in the heavenly realm as well as among the stones of fire. That doesn't prove he is the serpent in Eden. Another point about Eze 28 is it references him as a 'covering cherub'. The angels about the throne had 3 sets of wings. One set was to 'cover the body'. A covering cherub would be an individual with the feathered arms, not the flying wings on the back. As a Nephilim he could easily have been born with those. Much of the ancient pagan gods are depicted with such feathered arms. Even the Greek god Hermes had the wings for covering the feet, one of the 3 sets that the beings about the throne have.

Another problem is Eze 28 is a reference to Melqart ('king of the city') a title of Molech the primary deity in Tyre. Molech was the child of one of the other pagan deities. Shachar is also the name of one of those Canaanite deities and Lucifer (Heylel ben Shachar) is specifically stated as being the son of Shachar. Now Shachar is referenced in Job 38 as being the individual that Yah assigned to shake the wicked out of the skirts of 'the earth'. In the ancient paganism there are many references to an individual from the heavens whose consort was called 'the earth' and that union brought about the other pagan god offspring. In the Sumerian pantheon that would be Anu as heavens that had Ki ('earth') and Nammu/Namma (Na'amah in the Hebrew) as consorts. They were the same woman with ki being a nickname. The Anunaki were the children of Anu and Ki. Molech isn't even a name but another title. He was the ancient pagan sun god. In the Greek pantheon, he is the Greek god Pheobus Apollo while Pheobus is an epitaph of the sun god meaning 'shining one' or 'light bringer'. Sound familiar? It is what Heylel means in the Hebrew which gets used as a proper name in the English translations.

We also have the 'king of the Abyss' named in Revelation as Apollyon in the Greek. Scripture specifically states the ruler of hell is called Apollo in the Greek. Apollyon is just an alternate spelling. Isa 57 specifically ties worship of Molech as 'debasing thyself unto Sheol'. It ties Molech worship with Satan worship.

The parallels are all over scripture with the enemy being the pagan sun god. The sun god uses his flaming arrows or 'arrows of the sun' while Satan sends his 'fiery darts' for example.

The passage in Revelation about 1/3 of the stars being pulled down by the dragon gets interpreted as some mythical pre-adamic rebellion of 1/3 of the angels when it is an event in the tribulation that pulls down 1/3 of the principalities of the 2nd heaven. It hasn't even happened yet.

People take the passage in Isa 14 and pull like 3 verses totally out of context, don't understand half the references even in those verses and build entire doctrines out of it. They should read the passage IN CONTEXT when it is written to the shameful king of Babel while Molech means 'shameful king'.

Then of course you have the reference to Satan falling as lightning. Which Satan is that? When did he fall? Now many societies had an ancient pagan god that was the god of lightning and thunder like Hadad, the thunderer of the Syrians or Zeus of the Greeks. Now IMO the Satan that fell as lightning is a reference to who we would call Zeus being cast down and imprisoned for the error he caused and the problems his children caused at Babel setting themselves up as gods to be worshiped.

We know in Revelation that four angels are bound at the Euphrates and let back loose. We also have the dragon appear at that time who pulls 1/3 of the principalities of the air under his authority. When did those four get bound? What sin got them bound? When other then at Babel or the flood did Yah send his angels to corrupt a major problem on the earth? Where was Babel? On the Euphrates river?

Now Augustine refused to believe that angels could cross with women. He spread the common doctrine that is now standard doctrine across most of Christianity with a handful of verses taken out of context and totally ignoring the rest of the clues in scripture.

That is just a handful of the clues I have found. There are many references to the sun god being in opposition to Yah all over the OT.
 
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Pteriax

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The primary principality I was in conflict against was the daughter of one of the four angels at the Euphrates that is released in the tribulation. She was just the ghost of a dead Nephlim, angelic/human hybrid

This explains much
 
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Yahu

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This explains much
Yes, I learned a lot in that conflict that was contrary to all the teaching I had been raised in. It took years to confirm in scripture many of the things I learned. I had to go back to the Hebrew for some of it.

Who would want us to believe that the adversary was once the greatest angel instead of just the ghost of a dead Nephilim, ie evil spirit?
 
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Pteriax

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Yes, I learned a lot in that conflict that was contrary to all the teaching I had been raised in. It took years to confirm in scripture many of the things I learned. I had to go back to the Hebrew for some of it.

Who would want us to believe that the adversary was once the greatest angel instead of just the ghost of a dead Nephilim, ie evil spirit?

That isn't what I meant. I meant it (your belief in this) explains some of the positions you seem to take in debates.
 
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