Did Satan Have Free Will In Heaven?

[Yahu]

That isn't what I meant. I meant it (your belief in this) explains some of the positions you seem to take in debates.

My belief in it is based on actual personal experience backed up by scripture using an alternate interpretation in many cases then the standard interpretation.

The problem with arm chair theologians is they have no practical experience to back anything up in their doctrinal position. It is just force fed into them from a pulpit`or some past theologian like Calvin or Augustine.

Yes, it also explains my opposition to the ways of witchcraft where it is even in a christian using the same tactics unknowingly. I have a severe hatred for witchcraft in its many forms. I lost my wife in a conflict with the high priestess of Ashtoreth and had a very good reason to study the ancient paganism.

It also explains my opposition to Calvinism. My primary gift is discernment of spirits and I sense many of the same spirits operating through Calvinist, generally in the form of arrogance and superiority for being one of the elect. That arrogance can lead to attempts to manipulate and control of others which in turn opens the door to spirits of witchcraft and Jezebel in women. They see Yah as a god of control and emulate that control and think it is righteousness where as I see the 'god of control' doctrines rooted in doctrines of Baal.

 

[Pteriax]

I sense many of the same spirits operating through Calvinist, generally in the form of arrogance and superiority for being one of the elect.

I have seen no such thing in any Calvinist I have known. You don't have to believe in election to be elect. If you are saved, which I have no real reason to doubt, then you are just as elect as I am. That would mean that there is nothing to feel superior about. Even in the case of the unsaved, only God knows if they will be saved at some point, so we treat them as potentially elect as well. Any self superiority based on the doctrine of election comes from those who do not at all understand election.

 

[toolite]

have you seen "satan"?

Glory To God

Well since all sentient life has free will I would say he had to have free will.

But which Satan are you referring to? Satan isn't a name but a descriptive title. It is like the court prosecutor in the divine counsel that is allowed to bring condemnation for wrong doing before the throne. That does not imply that the same individual has always held that office.

By my understanding the serpent in the garden was not the current Satan. That individual would have been locked up with all the other angels that fell into error at the time of the flood. Jude and 2 Pet 2 are clear that the angels that fell into error are in prison. It would be foolish of Yah to allow fallen angels to corrupt the world only to destroy it but leave the angels free to do so again.

I see the individual referenced as the cockatrice (whose offspring are vipers) as the 2nd Satan that filled that role from the flood until the tower of Babel when he was imprisoned with his followers.

The current HaSatan has held that position since Babel and was the son of the prior angel that held that position. Who we call Lucifer (in the Latin) is that son of the former Satan. It is by his status of being born on earth that he can hold authority because Yah gave dominion over the earth to man.

People misunderstand a reference in Eze 28 to equate the 'king of Tyre' with being the serpent in the garden just because Eden is mentioned. The problem is where is the tree of life now located? There was an earthly Eden but there is still a heavenly Eden. Which Eden did he walk in? We know he has access to walk in the heavenly realm now to bring accusations before the throne just as he did to Job. He walks in the heavenly realm as well as among the stones of fire. That doesn't prove he is the serpent in Eden. Another point about Eze 28 is it references him as a 'covering cherub'. The angels about the throne had 3 sets of wings. One set was to 'cover the body'. A covering cherub would be an individual with the feathered arms, not the flying wings on the back. As a Nephilim he could easily have been born with those. Much of the ancient pagan gods are depicted with such feathered arms. Even the Greek god Hermes had the wings for covering the feet, one of the 3 sets that the beings about the throne have.

Another problem is Eze 28 is a reference to Melqart ('king of the city') a title of Molech the primary deity in Tyre. Molech was the child of one of the other pagan deities. Shachar is also the name of one of those Canaanite deities and Lucifer (Heylel ben Shachar) is specifically stated as being the son of Shachar. Now Shachar is referenced in Job 38 as being the individual that Yah assigned to shake the wicked out of the skirts of 'the earth'. In the ancient paganism there are many references to an individual from the heavens whose consort was called 'the earth' and that union brought about the other pagan god offspring. In the Sumerian pantheon that would be Anu as heavens that had Ki ('earth') and Nammu/Namma (Na'amah in the Hebrew) as consorts. They were the same woman with ki being a nickname. The Anunaki were the children of Anu and Ki. Molech isn't even a name but another title. He was the ancient pagan sun god. In the Greek pantheon, he is the Greek god Pheobus Apollo while Pheobus is an epitaph of the sun god meaning 'shining one' or 'light bringer'. Sound familiar? It is what Heylel means in the Hebrew which gets used as a proper name in the English translations.

We also have the 'king of the Abyss' named in Revelation as Apollyon in the Greek. Scripture specifically states the ruler of hell is called Apollo in the Greek. Apollyon is just an alternate spelling. Isa 57 specifically ties worship of Molech as 'debasing thyself unto Sheol'. It ties Molech worship with Satan worship.

The parallels are all over scripture with the enemy being the pagan sun god. The sun god uses his flaming arrows or 'arrows of the sun' while Satan sends his 'fiery darts' for example.

The passage in Revelation about 1/3 of the stars being pulled down by the dragon gets interpreted as some mythical pre-adamic rebellion of 1/3 of the angels when it is an event in the tribulation that pulls down 1/3 of the principalities of the 2nd heaven. It hasn't even happened yet.

People take the passage in Isa 14 and pull like 3 verses totally out of context, don't understand half the references even in those verses and build entire doctrines out of it. They should read the passage IN CONTEXT when it is written to the shameful king of Babel while Molech means 'shameful king'.

Then of course you have the reference to Satan falling as lightning. Which Satan is that? When did he fall? Now many societies had an ancient pagan god that was the god of lightning and thunder like Hadad, the thunderer of the Syrians or Zeus of the Greeks. Now IMO the Satan that fell as lightning is a reference to who we would call Zeus being cast down and imprisoned for the error he caused and the problems his children caused at Babel setting themselves up as gods to be worshiped.

We know in Revelation that four angels are bound at the Euphrates and let back loose. We also have the dragon appear at that time who pulls 1/3 of the principalities of the air under his authority. When did those four get bound? What sin got them bound? When other then at Babel or the flood did Yah send his angels to corrupt a major problem on the earth? Where was Babel? On the Euphrates river?

Now Augustine refused to believe that angels could cross with women. He spread the common doctrine that is now standard doctrine across most of Christianity with a handful of verses taken out of context and totally ignoring the rest of the clues in scripture.

That is just a handful of the clues I have found. There are many references to the sun god being in opposition to Yah all over the OT.

 

[PersephonesTear]

I've got a question for Yahu! (I just accidentally typed Yahoo, then had to backspace, cause that's how my mind pronounced it).

Okay, actually I have a couple of questions for you - just to clarify a couple of points.

First - So in your view, then, was Adam and Eve's fall the first "fall" that occurred in all of existence? No angels fell until after humanity fell, so humanity's fall was absolutely the first, and thereby set a precedent for the concept of falling out of what one was created for?

Second - All right, I'm not sure how to phrase this. Based on what you have said about the "enemy" being essentially the spirits of Nephilim from the tower of Babel, that narrows evil spirits down to a very small margin.

If such spirits from that particular time and place were all in league, with all of the Bible pointing to that specific group as the enemy, then what about the spirits of the rest of the Nephilim and their offspring that would have perished in the flood?

It stands to reason that if the Babel group are around in spirit that, likewise, the pre-flood group would also be around. And there is no reason to think that they would not also have their own agendas, probably not even like the Babel group because they came after (viewing them as usurpers, basically) and running around working toward their own ends.

The Old Testament pointing toward a specific group of these beings could be logical because they would be the ones geographically living in the areas of the world where the Old Testament was written and took place.

But what about the rest of the world?

Which leads me to...

Three - Do you think that ALL ancient pagan sun gods are actually a reference to the same being, who we now call Satan?

Things like the sun, the moon, the stars, the sea... Concepts and archetypes built around human understanding of the visible world around us... are there for everyone to see. Why couldn't any other evil spirit personify him or herself using these terms? Or even still, human beings come to personify the sun as a deity where no being of any type actually exists?

Meaning, why does Apollo have to be the same dude? Greek culture was from a different geographical area, and there was enough time interlapsed that the idea of Apollo and Artemis or any of those pantheon could easily be just made up stories that only vaguely mimic human memory of the time.

Why associate Zeus with a fallen angel bound at the Euphrates, simply because his attributes are thunder and lightning?

I have seen different people come up with very similar ideas completely separate from each other, neither one knowing that the other was working on the same thing. So, likewise, why couldn't a couple of different Nephilim show up and be like, "Hey folks! I'm the sun, aren't I special?" without any actual connection to each other?

 

[Yahu]

First - So in your view, then, was Adam and Eve's fall the first "fall" that occurred in all of existence? No angels fell until after humanity fell, so humanity's fall was absolutely the first, and thereby set a precedent for the concept of falling out of what one was created for?

Yes, I believe the first fall was by Eve and the serpent. Yes, the serpent in the garden was jealous of mankind. Mankind was to earn positions greater then the angels. Now Yah didn't cast out the Serpent but named a punishment for it as well as Adam and Eve. Angels that fall into error get punishments. Now who we know of as Satan was a murderer from the beginning. That was his first sin, not lying or deceit.

Second - All right, I'm not sure how to phrase this. Based on what you have said about the "enemy" being essentially the spirits of Nephilim from the tower of Babel, that narrows evil spirits down to a very small margin.

If such spirits from that particular time and place were all in league, with all of the Bible pointing to that specific group as the enemy, then what about the spirits of the rest of the Nephilim and their offspring that would have perished in the flood?

It stands to reason that if the Babel group are around in spirit that, likewise, the pre-flood group would also be around. And there is no reason to think that they would not also have their own agendas, probably not even like the Babel group because they came after (viewing them as usurpers, basically) and running around working toward their own ends.

Oh, you misunderstand. The unholy trinity our 'primary enemy' are 3 of the spirits of Nephilim from the period of Babel. Other lesser principalities are of the other Nephilim spirits and even human spirits. The ones at Babel were the Greatest of them. Their father was an angel of far greater status then those pre-flood watchers. The four angels that fell into the same error after the flood were they mighty cherubim that guarded Eden before the flood assigned by Yah to the earth.

Now one of the ways Heylel took ultimate authority was by setting up a time-sharing basis of authority based on the greatness of the individual. For example the signs of the zodiac are seasonal changes in major ruling principalities. Sun god worship is all about time measurement.

So my point is, the other 'evil spirits' can be from any Nephilim spirits. Now the post flood Nephilim bloodlines exist even today. They are the tares sown in 'the earth/field' that is among the wheat until the final harvest. The flood ended any of the older Nephilim bloodlines and a parent has authority over all their offspring. The initial post flood Nephilim have many more spirits under their direct authority.

Now Asherah was 100% human. She is an ancestral spirit that is worshiped as a goddess, ie 'mother earth'. She is a lesser fourth member of the Baalim. She was not divine as herself but the mother of Nephilim that honor her as their mother and given a position of authority in the spiritual realm. She rules over purely human spirits that are descent from her just as the region of Sheol called Abraham's bosom was the righteous spirits descent from Abraham. Asherah as Na'amah, the wife of Noah, is the female progenitor of all living mankind.

The enemy unholy trinity is a copy of the heavenly trinity. The primary four are a copy of the four beasts around the throne that also had four mighty angels appointed over the earth as Yah's direct representatives here. When they fell into sin and Yah had given domain of the earth to mankind, the enemy demanded that right of succession. The original four on earth were 3 males and one lesser female in authority. The enemy replaced them with 3 of Nephilim descent and 1 of purely human descent.

Ps 82 is about spirits put in authority over the nations that are not doing right according to Yah. They 'die like men'. These are the national 'Els', the fathers of the 70 nations but of course all of them are sons/grandsons of Asherah. Scripture equates the great spirits under Asherah 'as earth' as 'moutains', ie the 'great spirits of earth'. It even states that the reason these 'elohyim' are in error is because the 'foundations of the earth are off'.

Now female progenitors is associated with land/earth in Hebrew. Eve before she was named was Adamah, ie feminine form of Adam. Adamah means 'land in Hebrew'. Now the 2nd Eve, ie Noah's wife got the nickname 'erets', ie 'earth'. A field in Hebrew is an idiom to a womb for example.

Now Sheol was the domain of ALL spirits of the dead before Yeshua, both evil and righteous. It is NOT a domain of angels, fallen or otherwise. All fallen angels are in prison. Sheol went through a major change when Yeshua led out the righteous dead. Basically now those that remained generally serve the enemy.

Three - Do you think that ALL ancient pagan sun gods are actually a reference to the same being, who we now call Satan?

Generally yes. That paganism spread from Babel when the languages were split and mankind scattered. Oh, there are different people's that aligned themselves with lesser deities or ancestral spirits of their own. My studies have shown that the sun god worship went as far as the orient and Japan. As a matter of fact the different oriental people's aligned themselves with different individual deities from Babel. The same is true of the paganism in South America.

Now Egypt is kind of an odd ball. They were descent from Ham and other members of his family also hold positions as gods but Rah (meaning 'evil' in Hebrew) took over the supreme position later. Now Rah originally was a reference to Noah as 'heavens' in the Egyptian book of the dead. He was a VERY old man. Now you had different peoples that settled different cities and their religions merged over time.

The same thing happened among who we call the Greeks. They were many different peoples, with different legends that got intermigled and merged over time. For example the Spartans verses the Athenians were very different. The Spartans were descent from Ares.

Now Greece is not that far removed from where Noah landed in what is now Turkey. Now later that region even as different people followed the same gods ad Greece. The Trojans were not Greek but followed the same gods. As a matter of fact, the Trojans were primarily followers of Apollo.

Things like the sun, the moon, the stars, the sea... Concepts and archetypes built around human understanding of the visible world around us... are there for everyone to see.

Hebrew if full of word pictures. Hebrew has a very limited vocabulary compared to English so word pictures were needed to cover concepts. The paleo-hebrew is based on word pictures to provide meaning.

Now the enemy realm associated themselves with those symbols. For example Yah created the sun as the greater light by day and the moon as the lesser light by night. The twins took on those symbols as their own as sun god and moon goddess. Now the moon has influence over the sea via tides. The sea became the 'spiritual realm' of the moon goddess in the word pictures. Scripture like 'the wicked are like the troubled sea' or references to 'proud waves of the sea' are references to those under her influence.

Meaning, why does Apollo have to be the same dude? Greek culture was from a different geographical area, and there was enough time interlapsed that the idea of Apollo and Artemis or any of those pantheon could easily be just made up stories that only vaguely mimic human memory of the time.

Why associate Zeus with a fallen angel bound at the Euphrates, simply because his attributes are thunder and lightning?

The time period of the golden age of the gods was the time period of man after the flood, before Babel when the gods directly interacted with mankind.

I suggest you do a translation of all the pagan deities names given in scripture and study them out. They are generally titles that have the same meanings in different languages. You can correlate who is who by those attributes that reference them. It isn't always easy to see but MANY of them are. First off Apollo means 'destroyer' while Satan is 'the destroyer'. He was a destroyer by insect/rodent plague hence his title Baalzebub to the Philistines for example. Molech in scripture not only had children but mice and locust in offerings to him.

Oh there are many other scriptural clues. Here is one for example, the 'seat of Satan' in the city of Pergamos is a reference to the alter of Zeus that is now in a Berlin museum. Google it. Pergamos was a major pagan religious center in Lydia, a region in Turkey. Now Lydia was another name/reference to Asherah.

Now Euphrates is one of the names of who the Greeks called Zeus. The four 'rivers' of Eden were the four mighty cherubim that Yah assigned to the garden. The Greeks called them Zeus, Poseidon, Hades and Hera. They were in charge of different spiritual forces on the earth but were displaced by the enemy when they were imprisoned. Waters are a picture of physical individuals in Hebrew. For example 'king' means 'hand of authority over the waters' in the paleo-hebrew word picture. Rivers are 'mighty waters'.

Another good study is translate the name meaning of every place name listed in Joshua. There is all kinds of information about the pagan gods in place names dedicated to them.

I have seen different people come up with very similar ideas completely separate from each other, neither one knowing that the other was working on the same thing. So, likewise, why couldn't a couple of different Nephilim show up and be like, "Hey folks! I'm the sun, aren't I special?" without any actual connection to each other?

Oh, the ancient paganism is full of individuals that got displaced by other individuals. The original moon deity for example was male.

Now the high priestess of Ashtoreth I knew, knew exactly who her goddess was. She stepped in and took over other covens led by individuals that followed different goddesses. For example, two of the covens she took over and merged were followers of Diana and Isis. Ashtoreth appeared to the other covens and showed her different forms before they submitted to Ellen as an authority over them. When Ellen tried to take over a Wiccan coven, it didn't work as well. Even when Ashtoreth appeared, that other high priestess still refused to submit because it wasn't her goddess until they summoned Asherah to get her help in the conflict against me.

Now whether or not you believe my experiences and study or not, that is up to you. I suggest you study it out for yourself and let the Holy Spirit guide you if you are so inclined.

This understanding has no real baring on salvation. By all means study out milk before you get into 'strong meat' and mysteries. My understanding just provides a better understanding of who and what the enemy realm consists of and how the enemy is NOT as powerful as most are deceived into believing. We have authority over the enemy realm as Christians. If nothing else understand that and the ancient pagan gods of biblical times are the enemies of Yah that got people off course from the righteousness of Noah. Yah had to separate out His own nation of man to lead people to Him because of the corruption led by the enemy.

The enemy many times corrupted Israel just as the enemy is actively at work spreading corruption and false doctrines in the churches. If you understand the ancient pagan doctrines spread into Judaism, you can recognize the same evil being spread in the churches today.

Just keep in mind the possibilities I have presented as you read scripture and see if the Holy Spirit doesn't start showing you references that give you more insight now.

By all means TEST any teaching you get and weight it against scripture and your discernment from the Holy Spirit. Just because a doctrine is the most common interpretation doesn't make it truth. The enemy is good at deception. The majority can still be deceived just as the world believed that the earth was flat.

 

[intojoy]

I am asking this question because if satan was in heaven how could he be envious and demonstrate jealousy while in Heaven?

So I pose the question did satan have free will in heaven?

All The Glory Belongs To God Forever!

Angels were created in a state of unconfirmed holiness, with an ability to make a choice contrary to their nature. Satan sinned and had been confirmed in unholiness.

 

[Yahu]

have you seen "satan"?

Glory To God

No and I only had one 2nd hand encounter. Satan himself generally has no direct dealings with us IMO. Why would he? He isn't omnipresent. It is generally low level spirits that serve the enemy that we have to deal with.

That was one of my problems with the coven. I just assumed they were also dealing with just low level spirits.

During the conflict with the coven, when their tactics didn't work they did summon him at Ashtoreth's direction to get additional help by Ellen's admition. They were not Satan worshipers. They (the coven leadership) had been trying to get me to violate one of Yah's laws that carried a death penalty so they could kill me with their witchcraft. The lower level coven members were not allowed to even know that their goddess was in conflict with Yah or even associated with the demonic realm or that even the Christian god or Satan was real. I had protection and didn't fall into one of their traps. For example, they wanted me to get a girl other then my wife pregnant and have that child aborted so the hedge of protection was removed. Shedding of innocent blood carries a severe penalty and gives them the right to kill. The things that did occur were beyond bizarre. I had women offering to have my baby, women wanting me to be a polygamist and take on multiple wives, asked to be a surrogate father, ...

When Ellen summoned Satan's help, he used a totally different tactic instead of trying to get me killed. He assigned a high level spirit to influence authority above me and I was then used as a test case in the Pentagon and discharged early to just get rid of me instead of killing me. There was an over abundance of personal in my career field in the AF because of a planned system closure. I was used as a test case on how to deal with that over abundance and expelled early against my will by illegal orders that were issued that violated my enlistment contract. I was threatened with prison if I didn't submit to the illegal orders. They threatened my wife if she didn't convince me to take the early separation. That is how the AF Chief of Staff 1st got involved with the situation. I had grounds for law suites due to how his orders had been carried out.

Ellen later explained and took credit for all that as well. They then went after my wife once I was out of the picture locally. I was across country back home trying to set up a new job and household for my wife that was to separate 6 months later. They took my wife from me then bragged about all the things they did to her and things they had been behind trying to drive me to suicide. That was when Ellen explained everything, bragging about the power she had at her access and what I had been up against, not some low level coven but one backed directly by major principalities from the start.

I don't have visual discernment of spirits. I have never seen a spirit myself. Others did that were present. For example, the coven saw an angel come to support me when I was in one confrontation with them.

I had caught Ellen in lie after lie and she finally admitted that I had discerned her lies every time so she switch to bragging about things that were truth were I had been in misconceptions. I had told the coven they must just be following some low level flunky demon as their 'goddess'. Now my discernment does have a truth sense associated with it but I had been wrong in some of my own assumptions and doctrines I had been raised in.

One of the tactics of a death curse is to drive an individual to suicide. Ellen had even driven Cynthia's prom date to suicide to prevent an earlier marriage in her life. It took me 17 years to finally break off the suicidal tenancies after those events. I had to specifically break off death curses sent by witchcraft to stop the torment. I know exactly how Elijah felt after his conflict with Jezebel and her prophets of Baal. She had also sent a death curse after Elijah as a powerful witch and high priestess of Ashtoreth.

So no, I haven't seen Satan or even Ashtoreth. I could only sense the evil behind the events with my discernment of spirits and then have it fully explained in her bragging of her superior knowledge and understanding of all the events. It was that truth sense that got me digging in scripture to confirm or deny all the things revealed by her. I hadn't connected many of the isolated events that had been occurring over the years of that conflict. Things like the total destruction of my belongings in a freak fire then 2 years later Ellen took credit for the financial curse she had sent against me and how she laughed when she realized the results of it. She had sent that curse against me while I was stationed in Greece because of our initial conflict in tech school when Cynthia and I first got engaged. She didn't even realize I was the same individual from the initial conflict when I showed up in California 18 months later in the same dorm and had lost all my belongings in the re-assignment and once again tried to take Cynthia from her.

 

[intojoy]

I've got a question for Yahu! (I just accidentally typed Yahoo, then had to backspace, cause that's how my mind pronounced it).

Okay, actually I have a couple of questions for you - just to clarify a couple of points.

First - So in your view, then, was Adam and Eve's fall the first "fall" that occurred in all of existence? No angels fell until after humanity fell, so humanity's fall was absolutely the first, and thereby set a precedent for the concept of falling out of what one was created for?

Second - All right, I'm not sure how to phrase this. Based on what you have said about the "enemy" being essentially the spirits of Nephilim from the tower of Babel, that narrows evil spirits down to a very small margin.

If such spirits from that particular time and place were all in league, with all of the Bible pointing to that specific group as the enemy, then what about the spirits of the rest of the Nephilim and their offspring that would have perished in the flood?

It stands to reason that if the Babel group are around in spirit that, likewise, the pre-flood group would also be around. And there is no reason to think that they would not also have their own agendas, probably not even like the Babel group because they came after (viewing them as usurpers, basically) and running around working toward their own ends.

The Old Testament pointing toward a specific group of these beings could be logical because they would be the ones geographically living in the areas of the world where the Old Testament was written and took place.

But what about the rest of the world?

Which leads me to...

Three - Do you think that ALL ancient pagan sun gods are actually a reference to the same being, who we now call Satan?

Things like the sun, the moon, the stars, the sea... Concepts and archetypes built around human understanding of the visible world around us... are there for everyone to see. Why couldn't any other evil spirit personify him or herself using these terms? Or even still, human beings come to personify the sun as a deity where no being of any type actually exists?

Meaning, why does Apollo have to be the same dude? Greek culture was from a different geographical area, and there was enough time interlapsed that the idea of Apollo and Artemis or any of those pantheon could easily be just made up stories that only vaguely mimic human memory of the time.

Why associate Zeus with a fallen angel bound at the Euphrates, simply because his attributes are thunder and lightning?

I have seen different people come up with very similar ideas completely separate from each other, neither one knowing that the other was working on the same thing. So, likewise, why couldn't a couple of different Nephilim show up and be like, "Hey folks! I'm the sun, aren't I special?" without any actual connection to each other?

I would have discontinued this conversation at this point of eves fall. Satan brought sin into existence before Gen 1:2

 

[Yahu]

I would have discontinued this conversation at this point of eves fall. Satan brought sin into existence before Gen 1:2

Oh, and can you prove it with scripture or are you basing it on tradition?

 

[PersephonesTear]

Thanks, Yahu. I'm not saying that I believe absolutely everything that you have said... buuuuut, some of it does line up with my current understandings of scripture.

I have a couple more comments/questions. If any of these questions is too personal, then I apologize:

The four angels that fell into the same error after the flood were they mighty cherubim that guarded Eden before the flood assigned by Yah to the earth.

Where do you get that from? Like, what sources indicate both that the pre-flood Watchers were lesser angels and that the exact same beings that were guarding the garden of Eden were the same four individuals who fell after the flood? If so, then who the heck is guarding Eden now?

Now the post flood Nephilim bloodlines exist even today. They are the tares sown in 'the earth/field' that is among the wheat until the final harvest. The flood ended any of the older Nephilim bloodlines and a parent has authority over all their offspring.

Two comments here - One, I think it is very important to keep in mind that any person can come to Jesus, any person can accept his offer of salvation and through it be reconciled to God - no matter what his or her bloodline is. Any given person who has an angelic blood line also has a whole lot of other blood lines in them, most being human, and that person is every bit as eligible for salvation as any other. Period. That fact is very personal to me, and very important.

The other comment here is that I'm not totally sure that ALL angelic blood lines from before the flood were wiped out. Either Noah's wife or any of his son's wives could have had mixing in them. This is something we don't know for sure. We have a genealogy from Adam to Noah in the scripture showing Noah's direct descent - but this only mentions the direct male line. It does not mention their various mothers at all. Even Noah could potentially have had some mixture through one of his female ancestors.

The original four on earth were 3 males and one lesser female in authority.

LOL... okay, why is the female of lesser authority than the three males? From where does this idea come?

They (the coven leadership) had been trying to get me to violate one of Yah's laws that carried a death penalty so they could kill me with their witchcraft.

For example, they wanted me to get a girl other then my wife pregnant and have that child aborted so the hedge of protection was removed. Shedding of innocent blood carries a severe penalty and gives them the right to kill.

Um... whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat!!?? Ever heard of the KISS rule? Keep It Simple, Stupid.

This whole scheme sounds overly convoluted and complex. If they wanted you dead, then why didn't they just kill you? I mean, forget witchcraft and diabolical schemes to get you to sin... just straight up take a gun, walk up to you, and shoot you? Plenty of people are murdered every year without any involvement of witchcraft or curses. This anecdote makes me doubt this coven's intelligence big time.

Ellen had even driven Cynthia's prom date to suicide to prevent an earlier marriage in her life.

She had sent that curse against me while I was stationed in Greece because of our initial conflict in tech school when Cynthia and I first got engaged. She didn't even realize I was the same individual from the initial conflict when I showed up in California 18 months later in the same dorm and had lost all my belongings in the re-assignment and once again tried to take Cynthia from her.

So... this woman wanted to kill you because of your wife? Like... what did she want from your wife? Or did she want to kill you for a different reason?

 

[Yahu]

The other comment here is that I'm not totally sure that ALL angelic blood lines from before the flood were wiped out. Either Noah's wife or any of his son's wives could have had mixing in them. This is something we don't know for sure. We have a genealogy from Adam to Noah in the scripture showing Noah's direct descent - but this only mentions the direct male line. It does not mention their various mothers at all. Even Noah could potentially have had some mixture through one of his female ancestors.

Well on this point, well Noah was 'pure in his generations'. Now you have to go outside scripture for other references like Noah got 3 sisters that were relatively close relatives for his sons wives. I think that is mentioned in the book of Jasher that is mentioned in scripture but non-canon. It was just a Hebrew history book.

Noah's wife was also old like Noah and may have been from before the angelic corruption at the time of Jared. Noah married Na'amah, the sister of Tubal-cain mentioned in Genesis. It is one of the reasons she is mentioned. That is taken from other histories and even confirmed in the Summerian mythologies. Tubal-cain was a brass worker (ie coppersmith, cooper) and she is associated with brass disks and such in scripture as being the one that brought the knowledge after the flood. Asherah worship is directly linked with copper artifacts and amulets for example. For example, copper disks of the moon where both a reference to Ashtoreth as moon goddess and Asherah by the copper they were crafted from.

Another point is Asherah is called by a title of 'she who treads upon the sea' in the Canaanite writings. Scholars argue over why when she is an 'earth' goddess.

There would be no point in killing off all the Nephilim lines with most of mankind then Yah letting them to carry on by a corrupted bloodline of a person on the ark. The messiah could NOT come from a line with any angelic bloodline or it would prove their actions were required to bring salvation thus justifying their actions. How could they be condemned if their actions were required for the salvation of mankind?

But you are correct that it is NOT clearly spelled out by scripture alone. Research has to be done in many ancient writings to understand many references even in scripture. For example, watchers are not even defined in scripture even though they are referenced several places. You have to go to common knowledge from works like Enoch to learn the definition of what a Watcher is.

 

[Yahu]

This whole scheme sounds overly convoluted and complex. If they wanted you dead, then why didn't they just kill you? I mean, forget witchcraft and diabolical schemes to get you to sin... just straight up take a gun, walk up to you, and shoot you? Plenty of people are murdered every year without any involvement of witchcraft or curses. This anecdote makes me doubt this coven's intelligence big time.

We were in the military. A murder investigation would have exposed many of their other crimes. It was actually when the military found out they sabotaged a military aircraft that got a major local police, military police and FBI investigation started into their activities. They were convicted of treason as it was on top of their drug distribution and rape charges. They were dealing in date rape drugs. You see many of the members were in my wife's squadron as crew chiefs, ground crew for tanker aircraft and they were distributing drugs via those aircraft. They didn't want a murder investigation because they would have been prime suspects. Many people knew about our conflict. They nearly got away with the treason since it was the aircraft mechanics that did the sabotage and covered it up.

My death had to be in such a way as to be attributed to their power in witchcraft to cause fear that could not be proven in court. Witchcraft isn't illegal but murder is and they were bound by military law. Because of members being in the local SP squadron, they didn't fear minor investigations they could sabotage but they could not control major ones. Military police had to be brought in from another base as it was because of the corruption on the local base.

Besides, Ellen wanted to kill me with witchcraft to prove her superior power and that even a Christian was vulnerable to it.

The funny thing is, they were getting away with most of their criminal activities as it was. It was when Ellen openly admitted all their activities that I recorded the phone conversation and turned it over to her Colonel who got the investigations started by her open admittion of the sabotage of one of his aircraft. The tape could not be used in the actual trails but used to get confessions that could be used at trail. Some of those actively involved in the aircraft sabotage got 85 year federal prison sentences.

They tried all kinds of things to punish me and many were criminal instead of actual witchcraft. For example, they broke into my car and planted drugs, spread rumors I was behind the drugs and tried to have the corrupt military police find them in a search of my car as I was leaving for the last time at my separation. It back fired in their face and the crooked cops got busted for it. Drug dealing gang rapist crooked cops didn't live long in prison as it was.

 

[Yahu]

Where do you get that from? Like, what sources indicate both that the pre-flood Watchers were lesser angels and that the exact same beings that were guarding the garden of Eden were the same four individuals who fell after the flood? If so, then who the heck is guarding Eden now?

Actually that came straight from Ellen, the high priestess. There are clues that support it in scripture but it is not clearly spelled out.

Since her 'goddess' was a direct result of those events, they were fully explained to Ellen as some of the secret knowledge only known to a very high level high priestess. She wasn't suppose to reveal that knowledge to me and she was severely punished for it.

Now a 'watcher' is like what we would call a 'guardian angel' to watch over men. They were not mighty angels. It was their low status that they were trying to overcome by having children.

Eden, on earth, no longer exists. There was no garden to guard after the flood. Those angels were here on earth to enforce Yah's commands but fell into error. They attempted to get around the initial error of the watchers. They wanted to have purely angelic offspring with the 1 female angel. Daughters from her could marry the other two. Unfortunately it didn't work out so well. The first child was born crippled. The first daughter born refused to disobey Yah and refused to marry. That was Anath, ie Athena. It was when they got impatient and started taking human women that things went very wrong by children with our sin nature. Then those children set out to corrupt even those of purebred lineage to fall into sin as well.

Ever wonder why the story of Noah and the uncovering his nakedness is in the bible? That event started the downfall. Canaan got Noah drunk and castrated him. That is the story of the castration of Uranus in the Greek mythologies.

Yes there was angelic crosses with man after the flood but it wasn't from Noah and his sons directly. Noah's wife though did have twins by one of the angels after Noah's castration. One of those twins was the mother of Nimrod, the 'queen of heaven' and her twin brother is who we call Lucifer. They were BORN with feathered arms as hi level angel/hybrids but born on earth. They were stripped of those referenced as the 'winged-lion' of Daniels dream that got his wings plucked by Yah that ruled over Babel. The lion is one of his symbols while the bear is one of her symbols.

 

[Yahu]

So... this woman wanted to kill you because of your wife? Like... what did she want from your wife? Or did she want to kill you for a different reason?

Yes, the source of our conflict was my wife. She was the most beautiful woman I have ever known. Ellen had grown up in the same Catholic church and because she lacked great beauty worked her way into becoming Cynthia's best friend to use her beauty in her schemes to control men by their lust for Cynthia.

She had built her entire empire on controlling men by their lust for Cynthia. They joined the military under a buddy program so Ellen could get Cynthia away from her moral upbringing and corrupt her to turn her into a witch as well.

I met Cynthia in tech school, their 1st day out of basic training. We got engaged only to have Ellen sabotage that 1st engagement by getting Cynthia gang raped. 2 years later I turned up in the same dorm with both of them again. I had gained so much weight in my assignment to Greece that neither even recognized me.

I disrupted Ellen's schemes, courted and married Cynthia and was taking her home with me at the end of our enlistment. When I had shown up in California, there was a sign up list at the base gym of who got to date Cynthia next. Ellen was behind it all. Men had to submit to Ellen to even be put on the list. I exposed the stalking and got them convicted of sexual harassment without even knowing Ellen was behind it.

Things escalated until there were over a hundred people convicted and about a dozen dead in prison. The first anti-stalking laws passed in California was because of my wife and the events conducted by the coven and the men that followed them. They had gotten the source of date rape drugs to use on my wife as part of her corruption and became a major distributor of them.

So yes, the entire conflict was over biblical relationships between man and wife as it is in contrast to the pagan perspective with my wife in the center of the conflict.

I wrote the entire conflict as a trilogy entitled 'Battling Jezebel'. Book 1 is 'The Curse of Great Beauty'.

The loss of my wife is what triggered my in depth study of that ancient paganism. I have a severe hatred for that paganism and witchcraft. I want to expose the ways of the enemy.

 

[PersephonesTear]

Actually that came straight from Ellen, the high priestess. There are clues that support it in scripture but it is not clearly spelled out.

Since her 'goddess' was a direct result of those events, they were fully explained to Ellen as some of the secret knowledge only known to a very high level high priestess. She wasn't suppose to reveal that knowledge to me and she was severely punished for it.

So, in theory, Ellen's goddess could have lied to her about that. I personally wouldn't trust what a pagan deity tells me, but I suppose Ellen would have to trust her goddess to some extent if she's serving her.

I wrote the entire conflict as a trilogy entitled 'Battling Jezebel'. Book 1 is 'The Curse of Great Beauty'.

Where can I get a copy of these books?

 

[Yahu]

So, in theory, Ellen's goddess could have lied to her about that. I personally wouldn't trust what a pagan deity tells me, but I suppose Ellen would have to trust her goddess to some extent if she's serving her.

Yes, in theory that is possible yet I doubt it was a lie. It would serve no purpose. Ellen didn't believe the bible stories but her goddess told her they were ALL true but just didn't contain the full story. She filled in details. Ellen had to be aware of the entire truth yet still choose to serve the enemy anyway. That is what made her qualified for becoming a high priestess of that level, a willingness to side with the enemy even with all the facts.

Those under her were not allowed to know the deeper secrets. One of the thing she was so angry about was the things I revealed to the coven in general. Most didn't even believe in the existence of the Christian God but knew the reality of their goddess.

Where can I get a copy of these books?

It isn't published. I am still working on it but going over the materiel in editing is as difficult as the original writing.

I do have the current version in PDF format if you are interested.

 

[PersephonesTear]

I do have the current version in PDF format if you are interested.

Sure, I would love a copy of that.

 

[toolite]

Angels were created in a state of unconfirmed holiness, with an ability to make a choice contrary to their nature. Satan sinned and had been confirmed in unholiness.

So do you believe you have free will in heaven?

Glory To God

 

[toolite]

I thought so.. Thats why I asked.. What role do you want to play in the threads that I start..? Just tell me.. you want to test me for some reason but, you are not at my level or have the experience ...not enough for me to even get slightly excited.. we are talking about milk every day.. I rather talk about meat..

Glory To God

No and I only had one 2nd hand encounter. Satan himself generally has no direct dealings with us IMO. Why would he? He isn't omnipresent. It is generally low level spirits that serve the enemy that we have to deal with.

That was one of my problems with the coven. I just assumed they were also dealing with just low level spirits.

During the conflict with the coven, when their tactics didn't work they did summon him at Ashtoreth's direction to get additional help by Ellen's admition. They were not Satan worshipers. They (the coven leadership) had been trying to get me to violate one of Yah's laws that carried a death penalty so they could kill me with their witchcraft. The lower level coven members were not allowed to even know that their goddess was in conflict with Yah or even associated with the demonic realm or that even the Christian god or Satan was real. I had protection and didn't fall into one of their traps. For example, they wanted me to get a girl other then my wife pregnant and have that child aborted so the hedge of protection was removed. Shedding of innocent blood carries a severe penalty and gives them the right to kill. The things that did occur were beyond bizarre. I had women offering to have my baby, women wanting me to be a polygamist and take on multiple wives, asked to be a surrogate father, ...

When Ellen summoned Satan's help, he used a totally different tactic instead of trying to get me killed. He assigned a high level spirit to influence authority above me and I was then used as a test case in the Pentagon and discharged early to just get rid of me instead of killing me. There was an over abundance of personal in my career field in the AF because of a planned system closure. I was used as a test case on how to deal with that over abundance and expelled early against my will by illegal orders that were issued that violated my enlistment contract. I was threatened with prison if I didn't submit to the illegal orders. They threatened my wife if she didn't convince me to take the early separation. That is how the AF Chief of Staff 1st got involved with the situation. I had grounds for law suites due to how his orders had been carried out.

Ellen later explained and took credit for all that as well. They then went after my wife once I was out of the picture locally. I was across country back home trying to set up a new job and household for my wife that was to separate 6 months later. They took my wife from me then bragged about all the things they did to her and things they had been behind trying to drive me to suicide. That was when Ellen explained everything, bragging about the power she had at her access and what I had been up against, not some low level coven but one backed directly by major principalities from the start.

I don't have visual discernment of spirits. I have never seen a spirit myself. Others did that were present. For example, the coven saw an angel come to support me when I was in one confrontation with them.

I had caught Ellen in lie after lie and she finally admitted that I had discerned her lies every time so she switch to bragging about things that were truth were I had been in misconceptions. I had told the coven they must just be following some low level flunky demon as their 'goddess'. Now my discernment does have a truth sense associated with it but I had been wrong in some of my own assumptions and doctrines I had been raised in.

One of the tactics of a death curse is to drive an individual to suicide. Ellen had even driven Cynthia's prom date to suicide to prevent an earlier marriage in her life. It took me 17 years to finally break off the suicidal tenancies after those events. I had to specifically break off death curses sent by witchcraft to stop the torment. I know exactly how Elijah felt after his conflict with Jezebel and her prophets of Baal. She had also sent a death curse after Elijah as a powerful witch and high priestess of Ashtoreth.

So no, I haven't seen Satan or even Ashtoreth. I could only sense the evil behind the events with my discernment of spirits and then have it fully explained in her bragging of her superior knowledge and understanding of all the events. It was that truth sense that got me digging in scripture to confirm or deny all the things revealed by her. I hadn't connected many of the isolated events that had been occurring over the years of that conflict. Things like the total destruction of my belongings in a freak fire then 2 years later Ellen took credit for the financial curse she had sent against me and how she laughed when she realized the results of it. She had sent that curse against me while I was stationed in Greece because of our initial conflict in tech school when Cynthia and I first got engaged. She didn't even realize I was the same individual from the initial conflict when I showed up in California 18 months later in the same dorm and had lost all my belongings in the re-assignment and once again tried to take Cynthia from her.

 

[Aslansbud]

...That is a mistranslation according to most Bible theologians. It should have been translated "sorrow; wretchedness; adversity; afflictions; calamities; as the fruit of sin, but never as God's work of sin (see C. I. Scofield).

- 1 Watchman

Context is clear in Hebrew, I believe.
yatsar : I form
owr : the light,
bara' : and create
choshek : darkness:
`asah : I make
shalowm : peace,
bara' : and create
ra` : evil:
Yĕhovah : I the LORD
`asah : do
(imp) : all these [things].

and the word 'evil' itself :
noun masculine
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
a) evil, distress, adversity
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)
noun feminine
3) evil, misery, distress, injury
a) evil, misery, distress
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)

So God [bara (creates)] [ra (evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity)]
This is the one witness that was submitted and it supports the premise that God creates evil.

He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
Ecclesiastes 3:11

Peace