Did Satan Have Free Will In Heaven?

[ancientsoul]

angels are supernatural beings distinctly seperate from man ... angelos = messenger ... they are messengers ...

 

[toolite]

I originally wrote this post because when I found out that we or our soul has free will in heaven... I guess I was blown away...

I not sure what I believed before or thought.. or maybe I thought once you got to heaven you were made good.. but, now I understand you must grow to that level...

Glory To God

 

[Yahu]

I am asking this question because if satan was in heaven how could he be envious and demonstrate jealousy while in Heaven?

So I pose the question did satan have free will in heaven?

All The Glory Belongs To God Forever!

Your question is based on the assumption that Augustinian doctrine is correct in that:

1) who we call Satan has always been Satan
2) he was a great angel that rebelled before Adam
3) angels that sinned are not bound as claimed by 2 Pet and Jude

You are assuming the individual we call Satan ever even resided in the 3rd heaven.

 

[toolite]

Your question is based on the assumption that Augustinian doctrine is correct in that:

1) who we call Satan has always been Satan
2) he was a great angel that rebelled before Adam
3) angels that sinned are not bound as claimed by 2 Pet and Jude

You are assuming the individual we call Satan ever even resided in the 3rd heaven.

Tell me about the third heaven?

Glory To God

 

[Yahu]

Most of the theories about the Adversary have arisen from speculation and old, fairy-tailish literature. So the answer is...... nobody here or anywhere else knows the answer. I believe.... that according to scriptures, the Adversary has always done just what he was created to do by the Creator. But, I could be wrong.

True, most of the common understanding is actually taken from Augustinian doctrine propagated by the RCC as truth and works like Paradise Lost instead of actual scripture.

People totally disregard the scriptures that don't line up with their preconceived bias. For example 'Heylel ben Shachar' or 'Lucifer, son of the Morning'. Shachar was a Canaanite deity and Lucifer is his SON. People forget he is NOT 'ben Elohyim' but 'ben Shachar'. On top of that, the ONLY passage about Lucifer talks about his DEATH and descent into sheol and specifically calls him 'A MAN'.

Scripture is very clear that the one we call Lucifer is of angelic nature but BORN as a man. That makes him Nephilim, the offspring of an angel, not angel.

Besides that, the passage in Eze 28 people use as a reference to Lucifer is actual a prophecy pertaining to Molech under the title Milqart, 'king of the city', one of his titles in Tyrus as their primary deity. Molech was the pagan sun god, ie 'shining one', 'light-bringer' are epitaphs of the sun god. It is equivalent to Pheobus in the Greek as in Pheobus Apollo. Lucifer (in the Latin) is who the Greeks called Apollo, the son of Zeus while the Romans called his twin sister Diana Luciferah.

The prior passage in Eze 28 about Baal, ie 'prince of Tyrus' specifically states that they think they are gods but are really man and they die like man.

Augustinian doctrine separated the enemy from the ancient paganism and denied the capability that angels could have offspring rejecting Enoch and the fact that the pre-flood watchers crossed with women as presented in Gen 6. That became the official position of the RCC and their doctrines got spread into the rest of Christianity as common knowledge with works like Paradise Lost to root it into the common perception.

The enemy all through out the old testament were the pagan deities, specifically the pagan sun god and his family. For example, queen Jezebel was a high priestess of Ashtoreth, the moon goddess, twin sister of Molech.

 

[Yahu]

Tell me about the third heaven?

Glory To God

The 3rd heaven is just a scholarly term. Shamayim, 'heavens' in Hebrew does NOT just mean the domain of Yah. It is one of two unique words in Hebrew that ALWAYS contains the 'dual plural' ending 'ayim'. It is 'heavens' (dual plural). It can also mean sky or basically anything above our heads. The birds fly 'in the heavens' but that does NOT mean they are 'in Yah's heaven'. So Lucifer being cast down from Shamayim could just as easily be translated being cast down from the 'sky' as in being cast down from the tower of Babel.

If you read the passage closely, you will see he is trying to ascend into the heavens, not already in the 3rd heaven being cast out.

The 2nd heaven is a term used for heavens outside of the domain of Yah while the 3rd heaven is the heavenly kingdom. The 2nd heaven is were the 'prince of the powers of the air' (anti-christ spirit) has his domain. It is between the 3rd heaven and us. This is why the angel had to battle his way past the 'prince of Persia' to come to Daniel.

 

[toolite]

The 3rd heaven is just a scholarly term. Shamayim, 'heavens' in Hebrew does NOT just mean the domain of Yah. It is one of two unique words in Hebrew that ALWAYS contains the 'dual plural' ending 'ayim'. It is 'heavens' (dual plural). It can also mean sky or basically anything above our heads. The birds fly 'in the heavens' but that does NOT mean they are 'in Yah's heaven'. So Lucifer being cast down from Shamayim could just as easily be translated being cast down from the 'sky' as in being cast down from the tower of Babel.

If you read the passage closely, you will see he is trying to ascend into the heavens, not already in the 3rd heaven being cast out.

The 2nd heaven is a term used for heavens outside of the domain of Yah while the 3rd heaven is the heavenly kingdom. The 2nd heaven is were the 'prince of the powers of the air' (anti-christ spirit) has his domain. It is between the 3rd heaven and us. This is why the angel had to battle his way past the 'prince of Persia' to come to Daniel.

How many heavens are there? and where does God reside.. which level of Heaven?

Glory To God

 

[Yahu]

Unlike us humans who have a physical brain which has it's limits and often can give us clouded judgment resulting in a change of mind, angels don't have a physical body and therefore have pure thought and perfect understanding.

Nonsense. Jacob wrestled with an angel and dislocated his hip. Three angles visited Abraham and ate a meal with him. The men of Sodom tried to grab two angels for sexual purposes. The pre-flood watchers, the 'ben Elohyim' of Gen 6 fell into error and took women for wives and had children that were giants and mighty men.

All those sound pretty physical to me. The concept that they are purely spiritual and lack any physical form is straight out of Greek philosophy that greatly influenced many early church fathers, specifically Augustine who shaped much of the early RCC doctrine.

Your doctrine is NOT based on scripture but on Greek philosophy.

 

[Yahu]

All I know is that Lucifer (Satan) started out in heaven as a glorious angel. We don't think much about angels having actual "will of their own" at least I had never really thought about it. But aparently they do because we see how Lucifer fell and he was cast out because he wanted to be God. He fell due to pride; Isaiah 14:13-14 I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Note he says "I" 5 times in just these two verses!

But note, he says he 'will ascend into heaven'. Doesn't that imply he is NOT there already but trying to get there? How can he be cast out of someplace he is not in?

 

[ancientsoul]

EZE 28:13--"Thou has been in Eden the Garden of God: every precious stone was thy covering.............the workmanship if thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14.-Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth: and I have set thee so: thou was upon the holy mountain of God: thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15--Thou wast perfect in all they ways from the day that thou wast created, til iniquity was found in thee......17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness.."

God did not create an Adversary, God did not create Satan--He created Lucifer--and he was perfect--until he focused his attention on himself, instead of God. He was envious and dragged 1/3 of the angels with him. None of this could have happened if Lucifer and the angels did not have free will.
Some people think that God created "the Adversary", Satan, to be an adversary--but that is not biblical. Lucifer was perfect. God would not create Satan to be an evil adversary and then punish him for being that
way!!

nm

 

[ancientsoul]

But note, he says he 'will ascend into heaven'. Doesn't that imply he is NOT there already but trying to get there? How can he be cast out of someplace he is not in?

in his ascending it could be refering to trying to reach the heights of the Lord's glory ... on his own ... without God ... words of defiance ...

 

[ancientsoul]

Nonsense. Jacob wrestled with an angel and dislocated his hip. Three angles visited Abraham and ate a meal with him. The men of Sodom tried to grab two angels for sexual purposes. The pre-flood watchers, the 'ben Elohyim' of Gen 6 fell into error and took women for wives and had children that were giants and mighty men.

All those sound pretty physical to me. The concept that they are purely spiritual and lack any physical form is straight out of Greek philosophy that greatly influenced many early church fathers, specifically Augustine who shaped much of the early RCC doctrine.

Your doctrine is NOT based on scripture but on Greek philosophy.

manna is angel's food .... why would they need food

 

[toolite]

The Levels of Heaven is broken down in the original word.. and many don't have that information because it wasn't written in their current book they are using..

Glory To God

 

[Yahu]

How many heavens are there? and where does God reside.. which level of Heaven?

Glory To God

Like I said, it is just a scholarly term to distinguish between when Heavens means the domain of Yah verses other heavens. Yah dwells in the 'heaven of heavens'.

So the planets and stars are considered to be in the 2nd heaven. The 1st heaven is generally used to mean the air about us.

Hebrew has far fewer words then English. We use separate words for sky verses the realm of Yah. So in scripture you have to take from the context what 'heavens' is being refereed towards. The problem comes in when people assume that 'heaven' always means the domain of Yah. That is NOT true.

Now scripture does mention a 'heaven of heavens', ie 'Yah's domain that is above the realm of the stars' for example.

De 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens [is] the LORD’S thy God, the earth [also], with all that therein [is].
1Ki 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
2Ch 2:6 But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?
2Ch 6:18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!
Ne 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

 

[toolite]

Like I said, it is just a scholarly term to distinguish between when Heavens means the domain of Yah verses other heavens. Yah dwells in the 'heaven of heavens'.

So the planets and stars are considered to be in the 2nd heaven. The 1st heaven is generally used to mean the air about us.

Hebrew has far fewer words then English. We use separate words for sky verses the realm of Yah. So in scripture you have to take from the context what 'heavens' is being refereed towards. The problem comes in when people assume that 'heaven' always means the domain of Yah. That is NOT true.

Now scripture does mention a 'heaven of heavens', ie 'Yah's domain that is above the realm of the stars' for example.

De 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens [is] the LORD’S thy God, the earth [also], with all that therein [is].
1Ki 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
2Ch 2:6 But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?
2Ch 6:18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!
Ne 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Thats not true..

Glory To God

 

[toolite]

Yahu..

What was Gods name before Yahweh?

Glory to God

 

[Yahu]

manna is angel's food .... why would they need food

They wouldn't if they were purely spiritual beings. It is physical beings that need food.

 

[Yahu]

Thats not true..

Glory To God

Heh? What isn't true????

 

[ancientsoul]

They wouldn't if they were purely spiritual beings. It is physical beings that need food.

then why is it angel's food? food from heaven God provided ...

 

[Yahu]

Yahu..

What was Gods name before Yahweh?

Glory to God

Trick question?

Yah had title's not names prior to Yahweh as a name like 'Elohyim', 'El', 'Eloawah', 'Elyon', 'ancient of days'. After the flood, He also became know by the title El Shaddia. But none of those are NAMES, they are descriptive titles. For example 'El' does NOT mean God. It means 'the Mighty [One]' when used alone or just the word 'mighty' in some cases. In the paleo-hebrew it is just 'strength and authority'.

Here is an example how those words can be used and NOT mean God.

ps 82:1 God (Elohyim) standeth in the congregation of the mighty (El); he judgeth among the gods (Elohyim).
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods (Elohyim); and all of you are children of the most High (Elyon).
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God (Elohyim), judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Note how in verse 1 'El' is translated as the word mighty in this case because how can God stand in the congregation of God and judge God? These words are not names. Sometimes Elohyim is a reference to Yah, while other times to other 'mighty individuals'. Even angels can be referred to as 'Elohyim'.