Derive a sense of timing from the structure of Revelation

[keras]

Thank you, Revlog your reply is reasonable in that you prefer place all the wrath of God into one timeframe. That I disagree with and when all the prophesies that describe the Day of the Lord's wrath are collated, alongside those that describe the Return in glory, then it becomes difficult to maintain the theory of a single event.
Look at Isaiah 63:1-6, does this read like the Return in glory? Note in Rev 19:13 - Jesus comes wearing a garment splashed in blood. When did He acquire that? Isn't it obvious?
Many NT prophesies mention this judgement by fire, starting with Matthew 3:12, Then Jesus says in Matthew 24:28-30 Like a lightning flash...so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the carcase is, there the vultures will gather. [The many prophesied judgement of the nations; Hab. 3:12, Zech 3:8, Isaiah 66:15-16...]
AFTER that time of distress has passed....the Lord will come on the clouds of heaven....
First the flash of His fire judgement - THEN the Return, to come years later.
Romans 1:18, 1 Cor 3:13-15, 2 Thess 1:7-10 - [Note;...revealed ONLY amongst His own at this time] Hebrews 10:27, 2 Peter 3:7, Rev 14:18

 

[iamlamad]

Ah, just as I expected. Nobody was able to offer a rebuttal! lol.

Would you believe a rebuttal even if it was truth? I doubt it.

Here is truth: Axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's GOD GIVEN chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong."

Let's further define this:

NO trumpet will sound until all 7 seals are broken; NO vial will be poured out until all 7 trumpets have sounded. This is the TRUTH of Revelation. John was maticulous in his chronology; it is silly to think, after all the numbering for sequence, that John mixed up all the rest.

In general, everything in one chapter will come AFTER things in the previous chapter.

LAMAD

 

[Revlog]

Hi keras. First, I want to say that I do appreciate your posts. Although my view makes good sense to me, I know that it requires scrutinty -- especially from fellow believers who feel that other views make better sense. I acknowledge that I have no authority to declare my view to be sound. It is sound only to the extent that it is scripturally defensible.

I looked at all the verse you referenced. I see that most of them reference som sort of judgment by fire, and I'm still not sure why you think these verses argue against my view.

Below, I've cited your verses (extended in some cases), and offered an explanation of how those verses fit within my eschatological view. Please let me know if you think I've missed the point you were making.

Isa 63:1-6 - 1Who is this who comes from Edom, With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah, This One who is majestic in His apparel, Marching in the greatness of His strength? “It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.” 2Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press? 3“I have trodden the wine trough alone, And from the peoples there was no man with Me. I also trod them in My anger And trampled them in My wrath; And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments, And I stained all My raiment. 4“For the day of vengeance was in My heart, And My year of redemption has come. 5“I looked, and there was no one to help, And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold; So My own arm brought salvation to Me, And My wrath upheld Me. 6“I trod down the peoples in My anger And made them drunk in My wrath, And I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.”​

This is the exact same "wine press" scene as described in Rev 14 and Rev 19. He is destroying all unredeemed people at his appearance.

Rev 14 explains that He is trampling the "grapes of wrath" which have become ripe (i.e. the number of martyrs mentioned in the fifth seal have been completed). In my view, Rev 14 is a preview of the coming judgment, presented so that the conclusion could be reached in Rev 15 that God's judgments and His actions are righteous.

Matt 3:12 - 12“His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”​

IMO, this reference to fire is not the same as the "wine press" scene above. While the wine press pertains to people living at the time of Christ's appearance, Matt 3:12 is speaking about the judgment of all unredeemed people of all time, in hell.

Hab 3:10-13 - 10The mountains saw You and quaked; The downpour of waters swept by. The deep uttered forth its voice, It lifted high its hands. 11Sun and moon stood in their places; They went away at the light of Your arrows, At the radiance of Your gleaming spear. 12In indignation You marched through the earth; In anger You trampled the nations. 13You went forth for the salvation of Your people, For the salvation of Your anointed. You struck the head of the house of the evil To lay him open from thigh to neck.​

This looks like a reference to the bowls (IMO, the Day of the Lord). The mountains quake (7th bowl), the sun and moon "went away" (the darkness of the 4th bowl?), He tramples the nations (gathered against Israel in the 6th bowl), which is the same wine press scene. In trampling the nations, He fights on behalf of his people Israel, whom He protected during the 1260 days (or time, times, and half a time) as indicated in Rev 12:6 and Rev 12:14.

Zech 3:8 - ? Maybe you meant 3:2 ?​

If you meant 3:2, I think the "branch being snatched from the fire" is speaking of Joshua, delivered from Babylonian captivity. Not an eschatological event IMO.

Isa 66:14-16 - 14Then you will see this, and your heart will be glad, And your bones will flourish like the new grass; And the hand of the LORD will be made known to His servants, But He will be indignant toward His enemies. 15For behold, the LORD will come in fire And His chariots like the whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. 16For the LORD will execute judgment by fire And by His sword on all flesh, And those slain by the LORD will be many.​

I think that verse 16 is also talking about the wine press scene of Rev 19. Note that His judgment is by fire and by his sword on all flesh. I think this sword is the "sword of His mouth" in Rev 19, and the fire may either be the direct means by which they are slain, or it could be referring to the lake of fire in which all the unredeemed ultimately go (Rev 20:15).

Matt 24:29-30 - 29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.​

Verse 29 is referring to the great tribulation during the second 3 1/2 years of antichrist's reign (the 42 months given to him to conquer the saints). What happens when those 42 months are over? In my view, the Day of the Lord begins. The antichrist no longer reigns, Christ reigns. Christ's first act will be to resurrect the righteous dead, and then rescue the living saints from the wrath to come (1 Thes 1:10, 1 Thes 4:15-17). After this, the wrath will come in the form of seven bowl judgments upon the ungodly who remain on the earth (although I believe some may still repent up through the first six bowls). My feeling is that the bowls will extend for 30 days (based on Daniel's 1290 days). The final 3 bowls are the signs of Christ's visible appearance described in many of the Day of the Lord prophecies, and describe by Christ in verse 29. And then the bowls conclude with Christ's visible return (verse 30). At that time, he destroys the remaining ungodly (which is the wine press scene in Rev 19).

Rom 1:18 - For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,​

I see this as judgment for all unrighteous, not just those alive at Christ's appearance.

1 Cor 3:10-15 - 10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.​

I don't see the "fire" in this passage as God's judgment against the unrighteous, since it pertains to those who will yet be saved. I think it is a warning to believers to use their lives to serve God, so that they will not suffer shame at their lack of service.

2 Thes 1:5-10 - 5This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed. ​

IMO, a general statement of theology: God's righteous judgment of the ungodly will be retribution and glory for the saints, and eternal destruction for the unredeemed. This is true for all generations of people, whether alive in the end times or not.

Heb 10:26-27 - 26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.​

Again, this speaks of judgment awaiting all who reject the offer of salvation.

2 Pet 3:5-7 - 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.​

IMO, the fire is the lake of fire of Rev 20:15, where the ungodly are destroyed following the white throne judgment. This passage also indicates that the heaven and earth are also destroyed, which corresponds to the "heaven and earth not being found" in Rev 20, and the event coming up a few verse later in 2 Pet 3:10.

Rev 14:17-20 - 17Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.​

As mentioned above, I see this as the final bowl event. This is the battle of Armageddon, in which the Lord appears visibly to destroy the armies of the nations who are arrayed against Israel. God will destroy them in one day. First the kings and commanders, and then everyone else (as mentioned in both the sixth seal and in Rev 19:18). They will try to flee from the wrath of the Lamb (again, describe in the sixth seal), but to no avail.

 

[Revlog]

Would you believe a rebuttal even if it was truth? I doubt it.

I would certainly accept a rebuttal if it were truth.

Of course, I wouldn't be willing to accept a claim to be "truth" just because you (or any other human) declares it as such. You would be required to offer scriptural support for this truth.

Here is truth: Axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's GOD GIVEN chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong."

Let's further define this:

NO trumpet will sound until all 7 seals are broken; NO vial will be poured out until all 7 trumpets have sounded. This is the TRUTH of Revelation. John was maticulous in his chronology; it is silly to think, after all the numbering for sequence, that John mixed up all the rest.

In general, everything in one chapter will come AFTER things in the previous chapter.

LAMAD

Just what I was afraid of: You have provided your claim of truth, and even declared it as an "axiom"(!), but with no scriptural support.

I don't accept your "axiom" that Revelation must be taken in absolute chronological order despite the strong contextual clues that they are not chronological.

For the same reason, I don't think Daniel's prophecy is chronological. He often switches context, goes back and forth between things that occured in his own day, things that would occur in the centuries immediately following his day, and things that will take place in the end times.

John's Revelation is much the same, and if you were willing to consider that possibility, you might find that a much simpler and more defensible account of the end times emerges.

Would you be willing to consider that possibility, even if it were truth?

With reservations, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I've been providing scriptural support for my view in this thread, and you are welcome to provide scriptural rebuttals. But if all you can do is declare the truth by your own authority and invent "axioms", they won't carry much sway.

Thanks.

 

[keras]

Revlog, both Lamad and I say the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are a definite, fixed order. Other parts of revelation may or may not be in correct chronological order.
My belief is that to place the 6th seal at the end, to say they happen simultaneously or any other shifting around, is to incur the curse of Rev 22:19

Reply to #23:
My disagreement with your view is your placement of this fire judgement at the Return.
I see all the verses I quoted [Sorry, Zech 3:8 - should be Zephaniah 3:8] as belonging to the same event as the Sixth Seal.
It will be this terrifying blast of fire from the sun that will change the world, establish the One World Govt. and enable the Lord's righteous people to go and live in all of the holy Land. Realize that the current situation of world affairs cannot continue for much longer. Also that the sun is right now in an active sunspot phase, scientists say it is not a matter of if we get hit by a coronal mass ejection, but just when it must happen.
Be warned and be prepared. Isaiah 24

 

[iamlamad]

I would certainly accept a rebuttal if it were truth.

Of course, I wouldn't be willing to accept a claim to be "truth" just because you (or any other human) declares it as such. You would be required to offer scriptural support for this truth.

Just what I was afraid of: You have provided your claim of truth, and even declared it as an "axiom"(!), but with no scriptural support.

I don't accept your "axiom" that Revelation must be taken in absolute chronological order despite the strong contextual clues that they are not chronological.

For the same reason, I don't think Daniel's prophecy is chronological. He often switches context, goes back and forth between things that occured in his own day, things that would occur in the centuries immediately following his day, and things that will take place in the end times.

John's Revelation is much the same, and if you were willing to consider that possibility, you might find that a much simpler and more defensible account of the end times emerges.

Would you be willing to consider that possibility, even if it were truth?

With reservations, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I've been providing scriptural support for my view in this thread, and you are welcome to provide scriptural rebuttals. But if all you can do is declare the truth by your own authority and invent "axioms", they won't carry much sway.

Thanks.

First, I hope you will admit that it is written in some kind of order. I don't think anyone has found another book of Revelation in some rare Greek text written in a different order. So this is a GIVEN.

I think the burden of proof that it is NOT in order must come from your side of the argument.

On my side, we have 7 seals numbered for sequencing, 7 trumpets numbered for sequencing, and 7 vials numbered for sequencing. Then three woes numbered for sequencing.

Then I find the word "after" used as sequencing 8 times. Finally, it makes perfect sense in the order it is written in.

After all this, why would anyone think John scrambled up the rest?

Therefore, if you think something is out of order, please show us what, and WHY you think it is out of order.

I know there are strange doctrines that insist in reordering to fit their theories, such as prewrath doctrine. Rosenthal and Van Kampen both wrote great prewrath books, and both lost their ministries over their theories. Prewrath as shown by them was only a theory, and a false theory at that.

Glad to hear you would accept TRUTH. That means you are open to change, when you find truth.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Revlog, both Lamad and I say the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are a definite, fixed order. Other parts of revelation may or may not be in correct chronological order.
My belief is that to place the 6th seal at the end, to say they happen simultaneously or any other shifting around, is to incur the curse of Rev 22:19

Reply to #23:
My disagreement with your view is your placement of this fire judgement at the Return.
I see all the verses I quoted [Sorry, Zech 3:8 - should be Zephaniah 3:8] as belonging to the same event as the Sixth Seal.
It will be this terrifying blast of fire from the sun that will change the world, establish the One World Govt. and enable the Lord's righteous people to go and live in all of the holy Land. Realize that the current situation of world affairs cannot continue for much longer. Also that the sun is right now in an active sunspot phase, scientists say it is not a matter of if we get hit by a coronal mass ejection, but just when it must happen.
Be warned and be prepared. Isaiah 24

Fire at the 6th seal, when John (and the Holy Spirit) have not even begun the 70th week at that time? Where do you come up with this idea? I believe the 6th seal will be for the SIGNS of the imminent Day of the Lord. God's judgment will not have begun at that time. (His wrath and judgment will be VERY soon after, since the 6th seal gives the signs.

LAMAD

 

[keras]

Fire at the 6th seal, when John (and the Holy Spirit) have not even begun the 70th week at that time? Where do you come up with this idea? I believe the 6th seal will be for the SIGNS of the imminent Day of the Lord. God's judgment will not have begun at that time. (His wrath and judgment will be VERY soon after, since the 6th seal gives the signs.

LAMAD

The Sixth Seal is not merely a sign. It IS the Day of wrath of the One who sits on the Throne and of the Lamb. Then there is the 7th Seal; a time gap of about 20 years, when righteous Israel gather and the 144,000 are selected.
Correct; the 70th week has not started at this time, because the AC is not in power yet, when he makes a peace agreement with New Israel - that triggers the final 7 years.
Fire is not mentioned in Rev 6:12-17, but 'the sky will roll up like a scroll' is.
This quote matches 2 Peter 3:10 The heavens will move away with a great rushing sound and the elements will be dissolved in flames... And Isaiah 34:4-9...the heavens will be rolled up like a scroll...My sword appears in the sky... On the Lord' s Day of vengeance, fire will burn Edoms land.
So the principal of using matching scripture to gain understanding gives us the full story of what will happen.

 

[Revlog]

Hi keras.

Revlog, both Lamad and I say the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are a definite, fixed order. Other parts of revelation may or may not be in correct chronological order.
My belief is that to place the 6th seal at the end, to say they happen simultaneously or any other shifting around, is to incur the curse of Rev 22:19.

Seriously?!

From Rev 22: 18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.​

Am I adding anything to the prophecy? No.
Am I taking anything away? No.

The worst that I might have done is understood something incorrectly. Of course you and Lamad might be guilty as well. Surely at least one of you are since you don't agree.

But if people shall be on the brink of falling into the lake of fire just because they might understand incorrectly, we should all run away from even trying to comprehend Revelation. Are you sure that you want to press this point?

 

[shturt678s]

Seven literal "1" endings of the world at seven different places, ie, Rev.6:12-17; 7:9-17; 11:14-19; 14:14-20; 16:17-21; 19:11-21; 20:7-15. The end

Old Jack that missed you good folks, ie, miss me?

 

[Revlog]

First, I hope you will admit that it is written in some kind of order. I don't think anyone has found another book of Revelation in some rare Greek text written in a different order. So this is a GIVEN.

I think the burden of proof that it is NOT in order must come from your side of the argument.

On my side, we have 7 seals numbered for sequencing, 7 trumpets numbered for sequencing, and 7 vials numbered for sequencing. Then three woes numbered for sequencing.

Then I find the word "after" used as sequencing 8 times. Finally, it makes perfect sense in the order it is written in.

After all this, why would anyone think John scrambled up the rest?

Therefore, if you think something is out of order, please show us what, and WHY you think it is out of order.

Okay, quite reasonable.

Yes, I do "admit" the Revelation is written in some kind of order. However, I'm certainly not thinking that John "scrambled" anything.

For openers, I believe that the 7 seal events will occur in chronological order, as are the 7 trumpets and the seven bowls.

However, I also believe there's a reason why these events were not described as a simple sequence of 21 events. The events are instead laid out in three groups of seven: (1) 7 seals, (2) 7 trumpets, and (3) 7 bowls. If you ignore this structure, then you dismiss any relevance that the seals, trumpets and bowls might have individually, and you completely neglect the Biblical meaning of "wholeness" associated with the number seven.

In my approach, we don't ignore this structure. However, as you say, this itself is not good enough. I need to provide some tangible reasons.

I'll attempt to do that in my next post.

Glad to hear you would accept TRUTH. That means you are open to change, when you find truth.

Quite right, and so I assume that you are also open to change when you find truth.

However I hope that you will agree neither you or I have authority to declare what the truth is. We are mere finite sinners who have a tendency to be prideful. So, let's not engage in posturing, as in "I have the truth, and with work you will find it too". We should all be humbly open to the possibility that we are wrong, for otherwise we stop learning.

 

[Revlog]

iamlamad said:

Therefore, if you think something is out of order, please show us what, and WHY you think it is out of order.

Very well, but again, I don't see it as "out of order". I see three distinct sequences of seven ordered events, and each sequence is it's own complete context, as indicated by the notion of completeness implied by seven.

The given order of the three sequences may therefore not be chronological, but it is logical. I'll present my reasons for this below:

~~~~~~~

The End Times according to the Old Testament prophets.

The account of the end times, according to the OT prophets, is presented primarily in the form of three distinct time periods.

(1) The 70th week of Daniel - I believe is a seven year period which has a midpoint dividing it into two 3 1/2 year periods. There shall be a ruler who makes a convenant with Israel for seven years, but at the midpoint there will be an abomination in which this ruler stops the sacrifices in the sactuary, in opposition to God and His people. In the end this wicked ruler will meet his decreed destruction. See Dan 9:27.

(2) The latter half of this seven "70th Week" has its own title, "the time, times and half a time" - During this time, the saints will be given into the hand of the wicked ruler. This wicked ruler will exalt himself before the Lord, but in the end he will be destroyed and the everlasting kingdom of Christ and His saints will be established. See Dan 7:25-27.

(3) The prophets also describe another period called the "Day of the Lord" - This is the time of God's wrath. It features the sun and moon going dark, armies of the nations arrayed against Israel, and colossal shaking of the earth, and Christ appearing to destroy the nations. It will be followed by the enternal kingdom. See e.g. Isa 13:9-13, Joel 2:10-11, Joel 3:12-16.

Please note that these three time periods have different lengths of time, but they all conclude with the destruction of the wicked ruler and the establishment of the eternal kingdom. Therefore, they must overlap toward the end.

~~~~~~~

Christ's own account of His return Matt 24 easily agrees with the prophets.

He says there will be the abomination (Matt 24:15), which corresponds with the stopping of sacrifices in the middle of the 70th Week.

Then he describes a "great tribulation" in which the elect are nearly wiped out (Matt 24:21-22). This must be the "time, times and half a time" in which the saints are persecuted by the wicked ruler.

This tribulation will be immediately followed by the signs of Christ return: sun and moon darkened, shaking, and the visible return of Christ (Matt 24:29-30). This must be the Day of the Lord.

~~~~~~~

If Revelation is also an account of the end times, then it must also agree with these accounts from the OT prophets. To put it another way, we will have reason to believe we are interpreting Revelation correctly if it does agree with the OT prophets and with Christ.

So, now, let's compare your interpretation with mine:

~~~~~~~

Your view where Revelation is one sequence of 21 events

The 1st seal may reasonably correspond to the appearance of the wicked ruler appearing to make a seven year covenant, starting the "70th Week". The period of time mentioned in the fifth seal where saints are martyred could easily be the "time times and half a time" which starts at the midpoint of the 70th week. The sixth seal is certainly describing the Day of the Lord events.

So far so good -- except we've gone through the entire end times already, and we're only 6 events into the 21 total!

Remember, in the sixth seal, the earth just saw the sky shaken, the stars fall to earth, an earthquake moves all mountains and islands, and then the "kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains in an effort to hide from the presence of God and the wrath of the Lamb, because the "great day of their wrath has come" and "nobody is able to stand".

Now AFTER this (in your view) comes an event that destroys the 1/3 of the grass and trees? That strikes me as like blowing up a firecracker right after a nuclear blast.

But it gets weirder: There are some more events that harm 1/3 of the earth, and then come stings that harm people except the 144,000 servants bearing the seal of God (from chapter 7). Presumably, these same people had earlier tried to flee from the wrath of the presence of God? Evidently they hid successfully in the rocks and escaped the wrath of the Lamb? And what are the sealed servants doing on earth after the Day of the Lord?

I gets even weirder in the seventh trumpet where we see Christ beginning to reign with the kingdom of God having come to the earth, and his wrath had come to the nations. Again, this is odd after all people on earth had faced the wrath of the Lamb in the sixth seal. Again, it seems like we have reached the end according to the OT prophets, but there are still the seven bowls to go!

So next we see bowls of Gods wrath which destroy fully the things that were earlier 1/3 destroyed. In the fifth bowl, the earth is darkened for a second time (the OT prophets mentioned one such event). In the sixth seal, armies assemble for war against God. Apparently, God didn't quite win when the kings and commander fled His wrath earlier in the sixth seal, or when his wrath came again against the nations in the seventh trumpet. In the seventh bowl, we see a second earthquake the moves all the mountains and islands (the OT prophets mentioned one shaking of the earth). Later we see the return of Christ as king, even though he already began to reign on earth back in the seventh trumpet.

Somewhere in all of this, there are two witnesses operating for 1260 days, some say this is in the first half, some say the second half, and they are striking the earth with plagues.

Here's another weird thing: In chapter 5, Christ is given a seven-sealed scroll. (No trumpets or bowls, just the scroll.) This is clearly depicted as a momentous occasion. Surely that scroll must represent something very important. What is it? According to your view, it represents going through 1/3 of the events, and it doesn't mark the completion of anything in particular.

Conclusion: This IMO is a mess. People who read Revelation as 21 events are left to argue over how they possibly correspond to the OT prophets. People have to get inventive to do this.

~~~~~~~

My view with three groups of seven events

As discussed above, the first six seals reasonably complete the whole end times according to the OT prophets. It encompasses the entire 70 Week, which itself encompasses the "time, times, and half a time", and is followed by the Day of the Lord. The promised kingdom of God has arrived.

As I proposed earlier, the seventh seal (silence) which follows this great work of God may parallel the seventh day of Genesis 2 (rest) marking the completion of God's great work of creation. This seems appropriate considering that the kingdom will involve a new creation of heaven and earth.

The trumpets begin a new context. Since the seals represent the 70th week, perhaps the trumpets represent the time, times, and half a time. There seems to be confirmation for this because within the context of the trumpets, we begin to see references to 3 1/2 years: "42 months" and "1260 days" in chapter 11. In chapter 10, we saw an angel who is very similar to the angel of Daniel 12 who had declared a time delay of time, times and half a time. The angel in chapter 10 says that this time delay is over, and all things will be completed by the seventh trumpet.

The two witnesses are also introduced in this period, which suggests that they will be on earth during the second 3 1/2 years. They will strike the earth with plagues. Notice that the trumpet events are a series of plagues. When they are killed and resurrected at the end of their 1260 days of service, the next logical event should be the Day of the Lord. This is the same Day of the Lord we saw in the sixth seal, and it is described again in the seventh trumpet. This is the second description of that same event.

The bowls begin the third and final context. As you might guess, it should represent the Day of the Lord. Indeed, the bowls are introduced as the completion of God's wrath. Within these events, we see the Day of the Lord events: darkess (fifth bowl), armies arrayed against God's people Israel (sixth bowl), an earthquake that moves mountains and islands (seventh bowl). These are the same events that were described earlier in the sixth seal. It continues in chapter 19 with the return of Christ in wrath, and he destroys the nations and establishes his kingdom (as described earlier in the seventh trumpet).

Now let's go back to the seven-sealed scroll in chapter 5. In my view, this scroll can represent the completion of the great promise, spoken by the prophets and by Christ, that the kingdom of God would come to earth with Christ as king. It is fulfilled as all the seals are opened. This makes much more sense. And if you view the context of chapters 4 and 5, you will see that this is the intended meaning of the seven-sealed scroll.

Conclusion: This view agrees with the OT prophets completely. No human inventiveness is required.

 

[iamlamad]

The Sixth Seal is not merely a sign. It IS the Day of wrath of the One who sits on the Throne and of the Lamb. Then there is the 7th Seal; a time gap of about 20 years, when righteous Israel gather and the 144,000 are selected.
Correct; the 70th week has not started at this time, because the AC is not in power yet, when he makes a peace agreement with New Israel - that triggers the final 7 years.
Fire is not mentioned in Rev 6:12-17, but 'the sky will roll up like a scroll' is.
This quote matches 2 Peter 3:10 The heavens will move away with a great rushing sound and the elements will be dissolved in flames... And Isaiah 34:4-9...the heavens will be rolled up like a scroll...My sword appears in the sky... On the Lord' s Day of vengeance, fire will burn Edoms land.
So the principal of using matching scripture to gain understanding gives us the full story of what will happen.

Peter gives us NO timing; there may be tens, or hundreds of years between the heaven's moving and the elements melting...and there may NOT be; we just don't know. I cannot find a trace of that fire during the 70th week; from Rev. 8 to Rev. 16, except for the trumpet judgment that burns all the grass and 1/3 of the trees. I personally believe this could well describe a nuclear exchange, an all out nuclear war.

Please keep in mind, a seal is on a scroll, and takes but a moment to break it. It seems then that a small portion of writing could then be read with each seal broken. The broken seal seems to be the trigger for certain events to take place. When the 6th seal is broken, it is the trigger for the signs of the Day of the Lord. The 7th seal is SILENCE in heaven for 30 minutes.

There are events that will take place between these two seals: the sealing of the 144,000 for their protection during the coming trumpet judgments, and then John seeing the raptured church in heaven. Once these two things are accomplished (like rearranging the set behind a closed curtain) then The Day of the Lord (and the 70th week) can begin.

I agree, there WILL BE fire, but I believe the fire will come at the first trumpet judgment.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Okay, quite reasonable.

Yes, I do "admit" the Revelation is written in some kind of order. However, I'm certainly not thinking that John "scrambled" anything.

For openers, I believe that the 7 seal events will occur in chronological order, as are the 7 trumpets and the seven bowls.

However, I also believe there's a reason why these events were not described as a simple sequence of 21 events. The events are instead laid out in three groups of seven: (1) 7 seals, (2) 7 trumpets, and (3) 7 bowls. If you ignore this structure, then you dismiss any relevance that the seals, trumpets and bowls might have individually, and you completely neglect the Biblical meaning of "wholeness" associated with the number seven.

In my approach, we don't ignore this structure. However, as you say, this itself is not good enough. I need to provide some tangible reasons.

I'll attempt to do that in my next post.

Quite right, and so I assume that you are also open to change when you find truth.

However I hope that you will agree neither you or I have authority to declare what the truth is. We are mere finite sinners who have a tendency to be prideful. So, let's not engage in posturing, as in "I have the truth, and with work you will find it too". We should all be humbly open to the possibility that we are wrong, for otherwise we stop learning.

I too am open to learning. A while back on this forum I was about to answer a post concerning Rev. 17 & 18, and suddenly realized I had been wrong in my thinking about these two chapters. I changed INSTANTLY. How did I suddenly realize this? It was revelation knowledge from the Holy Spirit. It came suddenly and without words.

There is much about Revelation I do not know. But some I have been taught by the Holy Spirit; revelation knowledge through words, and through downloads, when suddenly I knew things I did not know the moment before. These things I know VERY well. Just as Paul was SO SURE of his revelation knowledge he preached for several years before conferring with those who "thought they were somewhat" about those in Jerusalem, I too am sure of what He as taught me.

I too see the sequence of the seals, then the trumpets, then the vials. It is easy to understand as a scroll rolled up: the trumpets and vials are hidden inside and cannot be seen until the seals are broken and the scroll is unrolled. It is simply impossible that the seals, trumpets and vials are three different views of the same events. They are sequential.

The only exception I see to complete linear chronology is that John as a few parenthesis that are outside his chronology. Rev. 12: 1-5 is such a parenthesis.

I will be looking forward to your next post.

Lamad

 

[keras]

A very nice, comprehensive response Revlog. I apologise for bringing up the curse of Rev 22:19, I do not consider it applies to you.
What you don't seem to know, is that the first 5 Seals are already opened. Zechariah 1:10 and Zechariah 6:1-8 tell us this. Also it is obvious that the saints have been persecuted and killed from the days of the early church until now.
Therefor the Sixth seal is the next prophesies event we can expect. This is logical because the world is now, once again, 'as in the days of Noah' and the Lord will again destroy His enemies. But this time it will not be such a comprehensive wipe out, many will survive, this is in order to test everyone in preparation for the Return of Jesus.
Isaiah 10::17-19 is a good passage that says the Lord will act 'in one Day to burn up and consume His thorns and briars'. That is those peoples who commence an attack against Israel. Jeremiah 12:14
What the Lord will us on that Day, is clearly told to us in Isaiah 30:26. So the Sixth Seal will be a CME sunstrike, that fits all the prophesies about that Day of disaster for the world.

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad said:


Very well, but again, I don't see it as "out of order". I see three distinct sequences of seven ordered events, and each sequence is it's own complete context, as indicated by the notion of completeness implied by seven.

The given order of the three sequences may therefore not be chronological, but it is logical. I'll present my reasons for this below:

~~~~~~~

The End Times according to the Old Testament prophets.

The account of the end times, according to the OT prophets, is presented primarily in the form of three distinct time periods.

(1) The 70th week of Daniel - I believe is a seven year period which has a midpoint dividing it into two 3 1/2 year periods. There shall be a ruler who makes a convenant with Israel for seven years, but at the midpoint there will be an abomination in which this ruler stops the sacrifices in the sactuary, in opposition to God and His people. In the end this wicked ruler will meet his decreed destruction. See Dan 9:27.

(2) The latter half of this seven "70th Week" has its own title, "the time, times and half a time" - During this time, the saints will be given into the hand of the wicked ruler. This wicked ruler will exalt himself before the Lord, but in the end he will be destroyed and the everlasting kingdom of Christ and His saints will be established. See Dan 7:25-27.

(3) The prophets also describe another period called the "Day of the Lord" - This is the time of God's wrath. It features the sun and moon going dark, armies of the nations arrayed against Israel, and colossal shaking of the earth, and Christ appearing to destroy the nations. It will be followed by the enternal kingdom. See e.g. Isa 13:9-13, Joel 2:10-11, Joel 3:12-16.

Please note that these three time periods have different lengths of time, but they all conclude with the destruction of the wicked ruler and the establishment of the eternal kingdom. Therefore, they must overlap toward the end.

~~~~~~~

Christ's own account of His return Matt 24 easily agrees with the prophets.

He says there will be the abomination (Matt 24:15), which corresponds with the stopping of sacrifices in the middle of the 70th Week.

Then he describes a "great tribulation" in which the elect are nearly wiped out (Matt 24:21-22). This must be the "time, times and half a time" in which the saints are persecuted by the wicked ruler.

This tribulation will be immediately followed by the signs of Christ return: sun and moon darkened, shaking, and the visible return of Christ (Matt 24:29-30). This must be the Day of the Lord.

~~~~~~~

I followed you right up to your last paragraph. This is what threw of both Rosenthal and Van Kampen: they tried to overlay the signs in the sun and moon at the 6th seal with the signs in the sun and moon in Matt. 24. They were very mistaken, for these two signs are DIFFERENT. These signs will be seen TWICE: first as shown in Joel 2 and Rev. 6 as the signs for the start of the Day of the Lord, then again 7 plus years later as the sign for Jesus coming as seen in Matt. 24 and Joel 3. However, the signs themselves are different. The sign for the Day of the Lord will be a blood red moon, while the sign for Jesus coming tells us the sun will be black and the moon darkened. We cannot see the moon unless there is sunlight reflected off of it. This is speaking of a moon that cannot be seen. This sign is also shown in Joel chapter 3.

If we compare what the prophets of old tell us about the Day of the Lord, it is easily recognized as starting with the trumpet judgments.

How does the 70th week and the Day of the Lord line up in Revelation? They both begin at the same time, or very nearly the same time. I believe both will begin at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet. However, if someone wants to argue that the Day begins at the great earthquake at the 6th seal, I would probably not argue with him. The Day of the Lord is the destruction of the planet and the sinners on the planet. We see that destruction beginning with the very first trumpet.

The 70th week is "marked" (God's word, not mine) by the 7's; the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it. The Day of the Lord continues on after the 7th vial.
(We are now waiting on the 6th seal event.)

Lamad

 

[iamlamad]

So, now, let's compare your interpretation with mine:

Your view where Revelation is one sequence of 21 events

I guess you really don't know my view very well!

I believe we are between the 5th and 6th seal, waiting on the rapture as the first event of the 6th seal. Seals 1 -4 were broken as soon as Jesus ascended into heaven...so around 32 AD.

The 1st seal may reasonably correspond to the appearance of the wicked ruler appearing to make a seven year covenant, starting the "70th Week". The period of time mentioned in the fifth seal where saints are martyred could easily be the "time times and half a time" which starts at the midpoint of the 70th week. The sixth seal is certainly describing the Day of the Lord events.

So far so good -- except we've gone through the entire end times already, and we're only 6 events into the 21 total!

No, the first seal is RIGHTEOUS. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation to represent righteousness; he did not change in this one instance. The first seal is to represent the CHURCH sent out to make disciples of all nations. The other three horsemen ride together attempting to STOP the advance of the church, to HOLD them or confine them to that 1/4 of the earth they were confined to. We can be SURE that 1/4 will be centered on Israel. They lost: there is nowhere on the planet the word of god cannot be heard!

The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE. They are told they most wait for the very last martyr to be killed as they were: as CHURCH AGE martyrs....in other words, they will have to wait for the rapture of the church to END the church age. After that, any martyr will be a 70th week or Day of the Lord martyr.

The sixth seal describes the SIGNS for the Day. Those people crying for the rocks to fall on them KNEW the prophecies of Joel 2 and Isaiah 2, so they KNEW the Day of the Lord was imminent.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Remember, in the sixth seal, the earth just saw the sky shaken, the stars fall to earth, an earthquake moves all mountains and islands, and then the "kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains in an effort to hide from the presence of God and the wrath of the Lamb, because the "great day of their wrath has come" and "nobody is able to stand".

Now AFTER this (in your view) comes an event that destroys the 1/3 of the grass and trees? That strikes me as like blowing up a firecracker right after a nuclear blast.

They want to hide because they have just seen the signs and they KNOW the Day of the Lord is imminent. It should be obvious they all were NOT killed by falling rocks! This is not the END. It is not real stars that fall to the earth. It is angelic beings or it is a meteor shower. The earthquake will be bad, no doubt, and worldwide. But it will not be as bad as the earthquake at the 7th vial.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

But it gets weirder: There are some more events that harm 1/3 of the earth, and then come stings that harm people except the 144,000 servants bearing the seal of God (from chapter 7). Presumably, these same people had earlier tried to flee from the wrath of the presence of God? Evidently they hid successfully in the rocks and escaped the wrath of the Lamb? And what are the sealed servants doing on earth after the Day of the Lord?

God has great mercy, and begins with trumpet judgments that are held back: only 1/3 when compared to the associated vial judgment. His wrath seems PROGRESSIVE; as men continue to refuse to repent, the judgment gets worse.

What? Did you imagine that His wrath would come and be over in a flash? They were crying for the rocks to fall, because they recognized the SIGNS for the START of the Day. It will go on and on and on and on until most of the population of the earth is gone. Remember the Old Testament prophecy: that God would destroy the planet and the sinners on the planet? It will not all happen in a day!

The day of the Lord will begin with the 7th seal. But it will still be going strong at the 7th vial that ENDS the 70th week. So will His wrath! So forget "after the day of the Lord!" It will just be starting!

I gets even weirder in the seventh trumpet where we see Christ beginning to reign with the kingdom of God having come to the earth, and his wrath had come to the nations. Again, this is odd after all people on earth had faced the wrath of the Lamb in the sixth seal. Again, it seems like we have reached the end according to the OT prophets, but there are still the seven bowls to go!

You are reading FAR more into the text that what is there! Jesus does not come for another 3 1/2 years. But the kingdoms of the world are indeed transferred to Him. AT the 6th seal, God's wrath is just getting started. NONE of the vials of His wrath have come yet. This is NOT the end.

A wise bible college professor said once, if we wish to keep our doctrine straight, we should FORM our doctrine on the most complete treatise found on a subject, then fill in missing pieces from minor scriptures on that subject. For end times, that most complete treatise is the book of Revelation. There are 9 chapters on the 70th week of Daniel.

He went on to say that when possible we should form our doctrine on LATER revelations versus earlier revelations, since God is a self-revealing God and over time keeps revealing MORE. Again, Revelation is where we must form our end times doctrine, and fill in missing pieces from the Old Testament scriptures. Daniel might be an exception.

So next we see bowls of Gods wrath which destroy fully the things that were earlier 1/3 destroyed. In the fifth bowl, the earth is darkened for a second time (the OT prophets mentioned one such event). In the sixth seal, armies assemble for war against God. Apparently, God didn't quite win when the kings and commander fled His wrath earlier in the sixth seal, or when his wrath came again against the nations in the seventh trumpet. In the seventh bowl, we see a second earthquake the moves all the mountains and islands (the OT prophets mentioned one shaking of the earth). Later we see the return of Christ as king, even though he already began to reign on earth back in the seventh trumpet.

I don't follow you on your 6th seal comment. There are no armies to be seen at the 6th seal.....unless you are trying to rearrange the book! This last earthquake makes the mountains DISAPPEAR! Yes, the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus at the midpoint of the week, at the 7th trumpet, but He did not return to earth at that time. John is very clear that He returns AFTER the 70th week has finished. (The days of great tribulation are in the last half of the week).

Somewhere in all of this, there are two witnesses operating for 1260 days, some say this is in the first half, some say the second half, and they are striking the earth with plagues.

Not "somewhere!" The man of sin will show up in Jerusalem 3 1/2 days before the abomination. Then the two witnesses show up BECAUSE the man of sin showed up. It makes good sense: how could he walk into the temple if he is not even in Jerusalem? Rev. 11:1-2 shows his arrival. Verse 3 shows the two witnesses show up moments later. They will testify for 1260 days, which will take them to 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial ends the week. They will lie dead for 3 1/2 days, then be raised at the 7th vial when ALL the Old Testament saints will raise.

Here's another weird thing: In chapter 5, Christ is given a seven-sealed scroll. (No trumpets or bowls, just the scroll.) This is clearly depicted as a momentous occasion. Surely that scroll must represent something very important. What is it? According to your view, it represents going through 1/3 of the events, and it doesn't mark the completion of anything in particular.

You are right on the IMMENSE importance of the scroll: it is the title deed or lease document of planet earth, between Adam and God. Satan usurped that 6000 year lease. AT the 7th trumpet, that 6000 years are ENDED. That is why the kingdoms are transferred to Jesus and why Michael can go after Satan to take him DOWN. The lease he usurped is ENDED. The truth is, if no one had been found worthy to break the seals, Satan would remain god of this world forever. THANK GOD Jesus was found worthy! When the seals are broken and the scroll unrolled, THEN, and only then, can the events INSIDE come to pass: the trumpets and the vials and finally Jesus return to earth.

Conclusion: This IMO is a mess. People who read Revelation as 21 events are left to argue over how they possibly correspond to the OT prophets. People have to get inventive to do this.

I agree!

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

My view with three groups of seven events

As discussed above, the first six seals reasonably complete the whole end times according to the OT prophets. It encompasses the entire 70 Week, which itself encompasses the "time, times, and half a time", and is followed by the Day of the Lord. The promised kingdom of God has arrived.

I disagree. The first 5 seals were broken about 32 AD. Stephen was one of the first martyrs and was surely in that group. The sixth seal will be broken at the time of the pretrib rapture. Then the 7th will be broken soon after, when God decrees it is time to begins the Day of the Lord and the 70th week. The 6th and 7th are FUTURE to us today.

As I proposed earlier, the seventh seal (silence) which follows this great work of God may parallel the seventh day of Genesis 2 (rest) marking the completion of God's great work of creation. This seems appropriate considering that the kingdom will involve a new creation of heaven and earth.

The 30 minutes of silence is because God is about to release His wrath upon the planet.

The trumpets begin a new context. Since the seals represent the 70th week, perhaps the trumpets represent the time, times, and half a time. There seems to be confirmation for this because within the context of the trumpets, we begin to see references to 3 1/2 years: "42 months" and "1260 days" in chapter 11. In chapter 10, we saw an angel who is very similar to the angel of Daniel 12 who had declared a time delay of time, times and half a time. The angel in chapter 10 says that this time delay is over, and all things will be completed by the seventh trumpet.

The trumpets BEGIN His wrath. I think you need to read that passage again. all things will certainly NOT be completed! It is "the mystery of God" that will be completed. I believe that means the 6000 years God gave to Adam for man to rule the earth. AT the 7th trumpet, that 6000 years is OVER. That is why Satan is cast down. That is why the kingdoms of the earth are transferred to Jesus. Satan LOST them. His ONLY hold to the earth was the lease he usurped.

The two witnesses are also introduced in this period, which suggests that they will be on earth during the second 3 1/2 years. They will strike the earth with plagues. Notice that the trumpet events are a series of plagues. When they are killed and resurrected at the end of their 1260 days of service, the next logical event should be the Day of the Lord. This is the same Day of the Lord we saw in the sixth seal, and it is described again in the seventh trumpet. This is the second description of that same event.

Wow! A breath of fresh air! Something I can agree with! YES! Good call! The two witnesses SHOW UP right here John first mentions them, 3 1/2 days before the abomination.

Sorry, neither John nor God backpeddles. That is only imagination. WHY would you say the next logical event would be the DAY, when the trumpet judgments fulfill EXACTLY what the Old Testament prophets described as the DAY?

The bowls begin the third and final context. As you might guess, it should represent the Day of the Lord. Indeed, the bowls are introduced as the completion of God's wrath. Within these events, we see the Day of the Lord events: darkess (fifth bowl), armies arrayed against God's people Israel (sixth bowl), an earthquake that moves mountains and islands (seventh bowl). These are the same events that were described earlier in the sixth seal. It continues in chapter 19 with the return of Christ in wrath, and he destroys the nations and establishes his kingdom (as described earlier in the seventh trumpet).

No, I don't guess like you imagine. I know that the trumpet judgments tell us exactly what the Old testament prophets told us about the Day of the Lord. And John was in perfect agreement: "The day of the Lord HAS COME. And that is JUST before the 7th seal.

Now let's go back to the seven-sealed scroll in chapter 5. In my view, this scroll can represent the completion of the great promise, spoken by the prophets and by Christ, that the kingdom of God would come to earth with Christ as king. It is fulfilled as all the seals are opened. This makes much more sense. And if you view the context of chapters 4 and 5, you will see that this is the intended meaning of the seven-sealed scroll.

Conclusion: This view agrees with the OT prophets completely. No human inventiveness is required.

I simply disagree. I don't think your interpretation is remotely the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit.

LAMAD