Derive a sense of timing from the structure of Revelation

[Revlog]

Even futurists who agree that Revelation should be interpreted as literally as reasonably possible will have disagreements over the timing of things in Revelation, and this can greatly shape the way we understand Revelation as a whole.

How are we to find a defensible sense of timing from the scripture?

I believe the answer is found in the structure of Revelation. With its 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 bowls, Revelation is the most structured book in the Bible, and this structure must be there for a reason.

Here is my proposed "train of thought" for deriving the meaning of the structure.

1. The structure must have purpose - The prophetic vision of the future is primarily laid out in the form of three "waves" of events: (1) seals, (2) trumpets, and (3) bowls. Even before we understand what this structure means, we should at least assume that it’s meaningful. God did not lay Revelation out this way just as a matter of whimsy.

2. The purpose should understandable – A proper scriptural understanding of the structure should be within our grasp. If it isn’t, then the purpose of the book is defeated. Its own stated purpose, given in Rev 1:1 is to inform God’s servants about what the future holds.

3. The purpose is to provide context – The structure itself is not prophetic, but it contains and presents the prophecy. The structure should therefore serve to inform us about how all the various parts of the prophecy relate to each other. In other words, the structure (if properly understood) provides the context with which we may know the the timing, order, and purpose of the things revealed in the prophecy.

4. Each wave of events represents a period of time within the end times – This conclusion follows rather simply from observing that the three waves (seals, trumpets, and bowls) each contain a sequence of events. Since every sequence of events requires a period of time in which those events can occur, we can make a reasonable supposition: The wave that contains those events represents the time period that contains those events. As futurists, we should understand that each of these three waves is an apocalyptic time period.

5. Each wave has seven events, giving them the meaning of “wholeness” – We should assume that the idea of wholeness implied by the number seven is applicable to each wave of events. This means that each wave should encompass something in its entirety, from start to finish. In other words, we should not see a wave as seven things, but rather as one thing that is revealed in seven parts. For example, we should not assume that three waves of seven events each are equivalent to 21 sequential events. Also, we shouldn’t assume that the three waves all happen simultaneously. Such assumptions ignore the notion of wholeness implied by seven. In fact, they neglect the whole point in having three distinct waves at all.

6. Each wave represents a complete apocalyptic time period revealed in scripture – So far, we have the idea that each of the three waves of 7 events represent the completion of an apocalyptic time period. However, this idea can only have merit if there actually are three apocalyptic time periods already revealed in scripture which need to be completed! If not, then there is no defensible way to say what those time periods are, or what it means to “complete” them. It is not our place to invent our own apocalyptic time periods.

This point raises the all-important question:

Did the prophets of God speak about three apocalyptic time periods?​

The answer to this question is yes. They are as follows:

(1) The 70th Week of Daniel.
(2) The Time, Times, and Half a Time.
(3) The Day of the Lord.​

We should see if three apocalyptic time periods in Revelation (seals, trumpets, and bowls) reasonably correspond to the three apocalyptic time periods revealed by the prophets (“70th Week“, “time, times and half a time“, and “the Day of the Lord“).

I believe they do correspond beautifully and provide a context and sense of timing that causes Revelation to seem simpler, more coherent, and more scripturally consistent than any other context that I’ve ever seen proposed.

For example, one consequence of this view is that the three waves overlap toward the end. That is, the "time, times and half a time" is the second half of the "70th Week". The descriptions of each conclude with God's wrath and the coming kingdom.

If this "overlapping" view is true, then we should expect to see the time period of the trumpets and the time period of the bowls contained within the seals. Indeed we do. The fifth seal describes the martyrdom that takes place during the 3 1/2 years of the trumpets (the great tribulation), and the sixth seal describes the Day of the Lord events that we see in the fifth, sixth, and seventh bowls.

We should also see "overlap" between the trumpets and bowls toward the end. Indeed, the seventh trumpet describes the return of Christ as king, coming in wrath against the nations -- the same thing we see at the conclusion of the bowls in Rev 19.

 

[Revlog]

Ah, just as I expected. Nobody was able to offer a rebuttal! lol.

 

[Old Timer]

I think that this is wonderful Revlog.. and wouldn't want to refute any of it.

I have typically considered the whole thing as that Day of the LORD encompassing all three of the elements you have described.. ie, the 70th week, the times, time, and a half time, and the Day of the LORD.

Excellent topic for sure.

OT

 

[Revlog]

Thanks Old Timer for your consideration and comments.

IMO, recognizing the importance of the structure of Revelation, and seeking a scriptural basis for its meaning is one of the most neglected areas of eschatology. So many theories attach no specific relevance to the structural form in which the prophecy is presented.

The correlation of the seals, trumpets, and bowls to the three prophetic time periods (as describe above), is the main premise of my RevelationLogic website. (In fact, my first post above was pretty much lifted from my "Revelation Overview" page).

In short, I found that many things fall neatly into place when this view is applied, and all of the apparent redundancies go away (e.g. two worldwide earthquakes; two periods of darkness; four accounts of Christ's return in wrath; three accounts of saints gathered in heaven with the 24 elders.)

I would be interested in other efforts to scripturally account for the structure, or even to dispute the correlation I've described.

Thanks.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Are you saying that there will be another tribulation period (the seals) that comes after the last trumpet where Jesus returns, raises the dead and judges them?

 

[Revlog]

Hi AnticipateHisComing.

Are you saying that there will be another tribulation period (the seals) that comes after the last trumpet where Jesus returns, raises the dead and judges them?

No. I think there is only one tribulation period (the second half of the 70th week of Daniel, aka the "time, times and half a time).

However, because the 70th week (seals) overlaps the time times & half a time (trumpets), the great tribulation is described in both the seals and the trumpets.

• In the seals, it is described in summary fashion by the fifth seal (the short time to complete the martyrdom).
• In the trumpets, the great tribulation is represented by the first six trumpet events. During this time, the two witnesses are serving for 1260 days, which is also the 42 months given to the beast to persecute the saints.

Immediately following the 42 months of great tribulation, the reign of the beast ends, and the reign of Christ begins. This marks the beginning of the Day of the Lord (bowls). This is also described in the seals (6th seal) and in the trumpets (7 bowls), and in detail by the bowls events.

 

[tranquil]

I'm not sure what you are even positing here in the OP.

And you completely ignore Dan 8's 2300 days. Trumpet 5 is 150 days, Trumpet 6 is 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour, + 1260 for the beast + 3.5 days for the 2 witnesses (=1st woe of Trumpet 5 + thru the 2nd woe) + the implied 490 days of Dan 9 to equal 2299.76 days/ or 2300 days.

Also,
All numbers in Revelation correlate to each other, each one has an "idea"; maybe this is something akin to what you are looking for. Not sure what you want to discuss.

 

[NGC 6712]

Maybe the numbers in Revelation make no sense because people are trying to attach meaning to gibberish.

 

[Revlog]

Hi tranquil. Thank you for your comments.

I take it that the 2300 days in Dan 8 pertain to the events surrounding Antiochus IV (which is also the main topic of Dan 11). The "little horn" in Dan 8 clearly descends from the "male goat" which represents the kingdom of Greece. This would agree with Antiochus IV.

However, the little horn mentioned in Dan 7 descends from the fourth kingdom, which is Rome. That little horn is given authority for time, times, and half a time (1260 days).

The "time, times, and half a time" mentioned in Dan 7 and Dan 12 pertain to the end times, and are easily seen to correspond to the "1260 days" mentioned in Rev 11 & 12, the "42 months" mentioned in Rev 13, and the "time, times, and half a time" in Rev 12.

Dan 12 (in the context of "time, times, and half a time") also mentioned 1290 days, which would be the 1260 days of tribulation plus an additional 30 days. I surmise that the additional 30 days may cover the period of the bowl judgments.

 

[keras]

Your OP is good, Revlog.
It is obvious from Rev 5:1 that the seals, trumpets and vials are a sequence of events. The seals must be removed one by one - then the scroll unrolled and read on one side, then the other. I do not agree that there is any parallel fulfilment.
To place the Day of the Lord's wrath at the end of the sequence is an error, as we are told that the Sixth seal IS the Day of wrath. At the Return in glory that Day is referred to as 'the great Day of the Sovereign Lord or 'the great Day of God Almighty'.
Jesus comes then 'on a cloud with His angels' and is called 'the Word of God'. It is a quite separate event and much earlier when He comes as 'the Son of Man', is not seen by the world and exacts God's judgement/punishment on the nations. 2 Thess. 1:6-10 [Note in verse 10 that Jesus is revealed only 'to His own'.]
Why do some think that the Day of vengeance and wrath is at the Return? Yes, Jesus does destroy the Anti-Christ's army as they attack Jerusalem; this seems to be almost just a clinical disposal operation, nothing like the many descriptions we have of the terrible, worldwide earthquakes, storms and fire of the Sixth Seal.
An example is 'the sky rolled up like a scroll' - 2 Peter 3:10 and Isaiah 34:4 both mention this along with how many will die on that Day. A literal Day; Isaiah 13:9-13, Isaiah 10:17 plus many other prophesies where the Hebrew 'yom' is correctly translated as 1/ 24hr day.
Why would Jesus need to punish the world after we have just passed thru the great Tribulation? No, this sudden and shocking Day of the Lord's wrath is the next event we can expect, a reset of civilization to a similar degree as 'in the days of Noah'. It will set the stage for the establishment of a One World Government, but the Lord's people have His great promises of redemption and restoration. They will travel to and live in all of the holy Land, being at last, 'a light to the nations'. It is them who say: 'Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord', at the glorious Return.

 

[tranquil]

Hi tranquil. Thank you for your comments.

I take it that the 2300 days in Dan 8 pertain to the events surrounding Antiochus IV (which is also the main topic of Dan 11). The "little horn" in Dan 8 clearly descends from the "male goat" which represents the kingdom of Greece. This would agree with Antiochus IV.

However, the little horn mentioned in Dan 7 descends from the fourth kingdom, which is Rome. That little horn is given authority for time, times, and half a time (1260 days).

The "time, times, and half a time" mentioned in Dan 7 and Dan 12 pertain to the end times, and are easily seen to correspond to the "1260 days" mentioned in Rev 11 & 12, the "42 months" mentioned in Rev 13, and the "time, times, and half a time" in Rev 12.

Dan 12 (in the context of "time, times, and half a time") also mentioned 1290 days, which would be the 1260 days of tribulation plus an additional 30 days. I surmise that the additional 30 days may cover the period of the bowl judgments.

Your opinion about the 2300 days is all well and good, but I've yet to see anyone on this forum really address the fact that Dan 8:17 says

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

You want to sweep this verse under the rug and ignore it like everyone else.

Don't worry, I don't really expect an answer. People just believe what they want to believe anyway.

 

[Revlog]

Hello keras, and thanks for your comments.

It is obvious from Rev 5:1 that the seals, trumpets and vials are a sequence of events. The seals must be removed one by one - then the scroll unrolled and read on one side, then the other. I do not agree that there is any parallel fulfilment.

I'm not sure what you mean by "parallel fulfillment", but I think perhaps there's a misunderstanding.

I believe that there is ONE period called the "Day of the Lord". It contains the full wrath of God, the period of darkness, the nations making war against Israel, and it concludes with the return of Christ to destroy the nations. This period occurs only once, but it is described multiple times, with differing levels of detail.

The reason it is described multiple times is that the three time periods (represented in Revelation by the seals, trumpets, and bowls) overlap. All three periods climax with the Day of the Lord, which is why we see that event described in the seals (the 6th), again in the trumpets (the 7th) and again in the bowls (1st through 7th, concluding in chapter 19).

To place the Day of the Lord's wrath at the end of the sequence is an error, as we are told that the sixth seal IS the Day of wrath.

I am placing the Day of the Lord in the sixth seal. I believe that the scroll represents the promised coming of Christ's kingdom to the earth. When all the seals are all opened, the scroll unfolds into the complete fulfillment of the promise.

At the Return in glory that Day is referred to as 'the great Day of the Sovereign Lord or 'the great Day of God Almighty'.
Jesus comes then 'on a cloud with His angels' and is called 'the Word of God'. It is a quite separate event and much earlier when He comes as 'the Son of Man', is not seen by the world and exacts God's judgement/punishment on the nations. 2 Thess. 1:6-10 [Note in verse 10 that Jesus is revealed only 'to His own'.]

Perhaps we are reading that 2 Thes 1 passage a bit differently. I think it is saying that the Day of the Lord represents both wrath and destruction to the ungodly, and wonder and glory to believers.

Why do some think that the Day of vengeance and wrath is at the Return? Yes, Jesus does destroy the Anti-Christ's army as they attack Jerusalem; this seems to be almost just a clinical disposal operation, nothing like the many descriptions we have of the terrible, worldwide earthquakes, storms and fire of the Sixth Seal.

In my reading the the prophecies concerning the Day of the Lord (e.g. Isa 13, Joel 2), I find the the Day of the Lord encompasses the full wrath of God, including the the darkness, the earthquake, and the destruction of the armies arrayed against Israel. To me this means that the Day of the Lord corresponds to the bowls of Revelation, because the bowls also encompass those things.

Why would Jesus need to punish the world after we have just passed thru the great Tribulation?

To bring justice against the world for their unrepentant rebellion against God, having rejected His offer of salvation, having ignored the many warnings (which I believe is the main purpose of the trumpets), and for their persecution of the saints during the great tribulation. BTW, I believe that the rapture happens immediately before the bowls (i.e. before the Day of the Lord), so that this wrath does not fall upon His people.

 

[Revlog]

Your opinion about the 2300 days is all well and good, but I've yet to see anyone on this forum really address the fact that Dan 8:17 says

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

You want to sweep this verse under the rug and ignore it like everyone else.

Don't worry, I don't really expect an answer. People just believe what they want to believe anyway.

Jeez, tranquil(?), if you're going to raise a counter-argument, isn't it more polite to give someone a chance to reply before you accuse them of wanting to sweep it under the rug?

I imagine that you can read commentaries like I can, such as the ones at BibleHub (e.g. Albert Barnes, Jamieson-Fausset Brown, John Gill, etc.), and you will see a few different opinions of this verse. So, Hebrew scholars debate over the precise meaning of this verse! And yet, you want to insist that the angel is giving a prophecy concerning the end times; even including the bit about 2300 days. If you insist on that, they why not insist that the little horn descends from Greece? But then what do you do about the little horn in Dan 7 who descends from Rome?

All the scholars I've read see this Dan 8 passage as pertaining to Antiochus IV. So maybe it's wise to be not so quick to apply this prophecy (or at least not all of it) to the end times.

What is meant by "the time of the end" in verse 17? Perhaps a clarification comes in verse 19: "Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end."

So, perhaps the "time of the end" is speaking about the "end of the indignation". What is the indignation? Daniel speaks about it once more in Dan 11:36:

Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.​

You will find that the king mentioned in this verse is Antiochus IV.

On the other hand, perhaps the "time of the end" of Dan 8:17 really is related to the end times.

Several translators say something like "it pertains to the end". I think it does pertain to the end times in the sense the Antiochus IV is (IMO clearly) a type or foreshadowing of the antichrist. However, this use of foreshadowing doesn't mean that all details applicable to Antiochus IV, such as the 2300 days, must also apply to antichrist.

 

[keras]

Revlog; when you say 'overlap' and I say 'parallel fulfilment' we are saying the same thing. As I state, that concept with the Revelation Seals, Trumpets and Bowls,I totally disagree with.
What seems to be hard for most to understand, is how the Lord will act to punish those who attack Israel. Most clearly prophesied in Psalm 83 and Micah 4:11-12.
Psalm 18:7-15 vividly described this terrible, worldwide disaster. In verse 11, it states: 'He makes darkness His covering and dense vapour His canopy'.
So at this time, the Lord will not be seen by all the world, as He will at the Return in glory. This forthcoming Day of wrath, will be a one Day blast of fire from the sun, a coronal mass ejection sunstrike as we are told in Isaiah 30:26. It will virtually depopulate the entire Middle East, Ezekiel 30:1-5 and will destroy all the worlds modern infrastructure. This allows the O.W.Govt with 10 regions to form, soon to be taken over by a charismatic leader. [dictator]
This is a logical, coherent and prophetically correct scenario.

Re the 2300 days; this has been worked over many times and why people fail to read it correctly beats me. It is 2300 'evenings and mornings', therefore 1150 actual days, which were exactly fulfilled in 167 to 164 BCE, when Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated the Temple. 1 Maccabees 4:36-58

 

[mark kennedy]

Even futurists who agree that Revelation should be interpreted as literally as reasonably possible will have disagreements over the timing of things in Revelation, and this can greatly shape the way we understand Revelation as a whole.

How are we to find a defensible sense of timing from the scripture?

I believe the answer is found in the structure of Revelation. With its 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 bowls, Revelation is the most structured book in the Bible, and this structure must be there for a reason.

I would agree, in fact, the seven major divisions correspond even to the chapter divisions. Ch 1-7 Seals; Ch 8-14 Trumpets; Ch 15-21 Vials of Wrath.

Here is my proposed "train of thought" for deriving the meaning of the structure.

1. The structure must have purpose - The prophetic vision of the future is primarily laid out in the form of three "waves" of events: (1) seals, (2) trumpets, and (3) bowls. Even before we understand what this structure means, we should at least assume that it’s meaningful. God did not lay Revelation out this way just as a matter of whimsy.

With you so far...

2. The purpose should understandable – A proper scriptural understanding of the structure should be within our grasp. If it isn’t, then the purpose of the book is defeated. Its own stated purpose, given in Rev 1:1 is to inform God’s servants about what the future holds.

True enough as far as it goes but is it just about the future or does the believer benefit from it in other ways. Just a thought, anyway, you were saying...

3. The purpose is to provide context – The structure itself is not prophetic, but it contains and presents the prophecy. The structure should therefore serve to inform us about how all the various parts of the prophecy relate to each other. In other words, the structure (if properly understood) provides the context with which we may know the the timing, order, and purpose of the things revealed in the prophecy.

I almost sounds like you just said the structure is not prophetic but provides structure for the prophecy. The word that comes to mind is Huh? Maybe we have a difference in terminology here, while I do think it wise to discern between prophetic oracles and predictive prophecy all Scripture is prophetic, just not necessarily predictive.

4. Each wave of events represents a period of time within the end times – This conclusion follows rather simply from observing that the three waves (seals, trumpets, and bowls) each contain a sequence of events. Since every sequence of events requires a period of time in which those events can occur, we can make a reasonable supposition: The wave that contains those events represents the time period that contains those events. As futurists, we should understand that each of these three waves is an apocalyptic time period.

I don't know that we will have a whole lot to go on but count me in.

5. Each wave has seven events, giving them the meaning of “wholeness” – We should assume that the idea of wholeness implied by the number seven is applicable to each wave of events. This means that each wave should encompass something in its entirety, from start to finish. In other words, we should not see a wave as seven things, but rather as one thing that is revealed in seven parts. For example, we should not assume that three waves of seven events each are equivalent to 21 sequential events. Also, we shouldn’t assume that the three waves all happen simultaneously. Such assumptions ignore the notion of wholeness implied by seven. In fact, they neglect the whole point in having three distinct waves at all.

Can't wait to see where you go with that one.

6. Each wave represents a complete apocalyptic time period revealed in scripture – So far, we have the idea that each of the three waves of 7 events represent the completion of an apocalyptic time period. However, this idea can only have merit if there actually are three apocalyptic time periods already revealed in scripture which need to be completed! If not, then there is no defensible way to say what those time periods are, or what it means to “complete” them. It is not our place to invent our own apocalyptic time periods.

i'm just wondering what your going to be using as a point of reference for time frames.

This point raises the all-important question:

Did the prophets of God speak about three apocalyptic time periods?​

The answer to this question is yes. They are as follows:

(1) The 70th Week of Daniel.
(2) The Time, Times, and Half a Time.
(3) The Day of the Lord.​

We should see if three apocalyptic time periods in Revelation (seals, trumpets, and bowls) reasonably correspond to the three apocalyptic time periods revealed by the prophets (“70th Week“, “time, times and half a time“, and “the Day of the Lord&#8220.

The last of the 70 Sevens from Daniel will get no argument from me.

I believe they do correspond beautifully and provide a context and sense of timing that causes Revelation to seem simpler, more coherent, and more scripturally consistent than any other context that I’ve ever seen proposed.

For example, one consequence of this view is that the three waves overlap toward the end. That is, the "time, times and half a time" is the second half of the "70th Week". The descriptions of each conclude with God's wrath and the coming kingdom.

Hang on a sec, I think that one might be fun to deal with. I see no logical overlap, the Trumpets commence after the conclusion of the Seals and most of the Trumpets are sounded within the first half of the Tribulation. The Vials of Wrath are poured out exclusively during the Great Tribulation in the second half of the Seven Year Tribulation. Going to have to work on that one I think.

If this "overlapping" view is true, then we should expect to see the time period of the trumpets and the time period of the bowls contained within the seals. Indeed we do. The fifth seal describes the martyrdom that takes place during the 3 1/2 years of the trumpets (the great tribulation), and the sixth seal describes the Day of the Lord events that we see in the fifth, sixth, and seventh bowls.

We should also see "overlap" between the trumpets and bowls toward the end. Indeed, the seventh trumpet describes the return of Christ as king, coming in wrath against the nations -- the same thing we see at the conclusion of the bowls in Rev 19.

Sounds great, would you like to take it in blocks of seven chapters?

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Revlog]

Hello mark kennedy. Thanks for commenting, even if you're clearly unimpressed.

That's okay, I sought a better understanding of Revelation because I was unimpressed with all of the major views out there (some more than others). However, I do wish you had gone further with supporting arguments.

the seven major divisions correspond even to the chapter divisions. Ch 1-7 Seals; Ch 8-14 Trumpets; Ch 15-21 Vials of Wrath.

I don't quite see it that way. Chapter divisions are meaningless. The seven sealed scroll is introduced in chapter 5 and they are opened in chapters 6-7:1. IMO it was a mistake to put the seventh seal by itself in chapter 8 with the trumpets, completely ignoring the major contextual distinction between seals and trumpets. I think this is a big reason readers assume that the seventh seal is an event preceding the trumpets.

The description of the trumpets extend from 8:2 through the end of chapter 11. The bowls pick up in chapters 16-19.

This leaves chapters 12-15 as sort of a special section unto themselves. Chapter 12 focuses on the career of Satan (from past to future), chapter 13 focuses on Satan's final future kingdom lead by antichrst and the false prophet (these things occur during the 1260 days of the time, times, and half a time). Chapter 14 continues the discussion of the end times from a heavenly perspective, all the way to the end (actually including a "preview" of the Battle of Armageddon). Chapter 15 draws the conclusion from what was revealed in chapter 12-14: That God's upcoming wrath (previewed in chapter 14) is righteous. With this, the bowls full of God's wrath are prepared.

I almost sounds like you just said the structure is not prophetic but provides structure for the prophecy. The word that comes to mind is Huh? Maybe we have a difference in terminology here, while I do think it wise to discern between prophetic oracles and predictive prophecy all Scripture is prophetic, just not necessarily predictive.

Fair enough. I'll try again: There are two things: (1) the text that describes the things which will happen, and (2) the structure (e.g. seals, trumpets, bowls) in which that text is organized. The stucture doesn't itself say what will happen, but it gives contextual information about the things that will happen. IMO, seeking an understanding of this context is critical, and yet badly neglected by most Revelation commentators.

The last of the 70 Sevens from Daniel will get no argument from me.

Okay, but it makes we wonder: Do you agree that Daniel's "time, times, and half a time" is the second half of Daniel's 70th week?

Hang on a sec, I think that one might be fun to deal with. I see no logical overlap, the Trumpets commence after the conclusion of the Seals and most of the Trumpets are sounded within the first half of the Tribulation. The Vials of Wrath are poured out exclusively during the Great Tribulation in the second half of the Seven Year Tribulation. Going to have to work on that one I think.

Okay, but what reasons do you have for favoring your view over mine?

I'll start by giving some reasons for why I disagree with the idea that the trumpet events chronologically follow the seal events:

1. The sixth seal describes kings, commanders, mighty men, and all men, free or slave, trying to flee from the presence of God and the wrath of the Lamb. This IMO is describing the same scene at the end of the bowls (compare to the list of people in Rev 19:18, who are about to be destroyed in the wrath of the Lamb). How can the trumpet events follow this?

2. The sixth seal describes a great worldwide earthquake so intense that every mountain and island are moved from its place. Presumably in your view, life will then go on for a period of time in the trumpets while antichrist rules on the earth persecuting saints, until we have another similar earthquake that moves mountains and islands in the seventh bowl.

We know that an earthquake strong enough to move one mountain or island even a barely perceivable few inches would cause massive devastation in that region. A quake that moves every mountain and island would be so colossal that there would be no functional continuation of life afterwards. It makes much more sense that there can only be one such earthquake, and that it must occur at the very end. IMO, that one "end all" earthquake is described in both the sixth seal and the seventh bowl. They are describe so similarly to help us see that connection.

3. I'll note that the signs of Christ's appearance in wrath (darkness, nations gathered for battle in Israel, shaking of the earth), whether spoken by the prophets or by Christ himself, indicate that each of these things happen once, not twice. This IMO gives some merit to an interpretation of Revelation that agrees with one occurrence.

4. The fifth seal describes a "short time" in which the number of Christians to be martyred must be completed. This short time IS the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation (second half of the seven-year end times period). It is the 42 months given to the beast to conquer the saints (Dan 7:25, Rev 13:5-7). It is the time of woe for the earth because the dragon knows his time is short (Rev 12:12). It is the 1260 days of the trumpets, in which the two witnesses are preaching in Israel and striking the earth with plagues. The fifth seal IS the great tribulation, not some extra period of martyrdom that precedes the great tribulation.

5. In your view, it seems that God's wrath is being poured out upon the earth during the time that the saints on on earth being persecuted for their faith. How can God's wrath come upon these saints in view of 1 Thes 1:10, 1 Thes 5:9?

In my view, the seals completely encompass both the trumpets and the bowls, corresponding to the 70th week as described by Daniel. When the seals are all open, the promised coming of the kingdom of God to earth shall be fulfilled. The consequences of this view remove all the problems mentioned above, among others.

 

[keras]

To say that the Seals encompass the trumpets and bowls is to make 2 serious errors.
Firstly, you are shifting scripture around and changing the given sequence when John states: After that... and Then I saw....
Secondly, you make no mention of the Seventh Seal. This is a time gap of about a half hour in Heaven. Not earthly time but Heavenly time. Twice we are told that 1 day to God in heaven equates to 1000 years to us on earth. Psalm 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8. So between the Sixth Seal and the commencement of the great Tribulation Trumpets and Bowls, there will be a period of about 20 years. Realizing this truth makes understanding of the Revelation events easier.

 

[Revlog]

Hi keras.

To say that the Seals encompass the trumpets and bowls is to make 2 serious errors.

Okay, lets have a look...

Firstly, you are shifting scripture around and changing the given sequence when John states: After that... and Then I saw....

I think you have to consider the context of how John uses the word "after".

Sometimes he says "after this I saw", in which case he is relating the order in which the vision was revealed to him. This doesn't need to be the chronological order in which things will actually occur. In fact, to assume that the three groups of seven events is equivalent to 21 sequential events is simply to neglect the whole point of have three distinct groups of events, and it ignores the special significance (wholeness, completeness) associated with the number seven.

On other occasions, John does use "after" in the context of the events within the vision, which does indicate chronological order.

Just as a little example, in chapter 20 John describes the earth vanishing in verse 11, and then he describes the sea giving up its dead in verse 13. Should we fret over how the sea could give up its dead after the earth (and thus the sea) has vanished? No, we let context and reason rule: Verse 11 is a summary statement of the event, and it is followed by other statements that describe that same event with more detail.

This, I believe, is what Revelation is doing on a large scale with the seals, trumpet, and bowls. The seals is a summation of the whole end times in which the kingdom of Christ comes to earth. The trumpets fill in some details about the great tribulation (which was summarized by the fifth seal) and the bowls fill in even greater detail about the Day of the Lord (summarized by the sixth seal).

Secondly, you make no mention of the Seventh Seal. This is a time gap of about a half hour in Heaven.

Well yes, there are many things I haven't discussed (here) yet, and the seventh seal is one of them.

The seventh seal is, to John's vision, silence in heaven for about a half hour.

If we want to be honest, it's a bit enigmatic. Revelation doesn't say what this silence means. Everyone who proposes a view about Revelation imputes some meaning to the seventh seal that suits their view. I have done the same for my view:

In general, when I see imagery used in Revelation for which Revelation doesn't explain and for which there is no obvious meaning, I think it's best to see if that imagery is alluding to something in the Old Testament. I think this principle works very well (e.g. the two olive trees in chapter 11, the woman of chapter 12, the leopard, bear, and lion of chapter 13, etc. are understood by connecting them to similar Old Testament passages).

So, the seals are seven events in which the seventh event is silence.

Is there anything in the Old Testament that is similar? I think the answer is yes: Creation was a sequence of seven events in which the final one was was a (quiet) "rest" event.

Could this similarity between creation and the seals have any bearing on understanding the seals? I think it does when you realize that the coming of the kingdom will instigate a new creation! "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away"; "And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new." (Rev 21:1,5)

Creation was a great work of God. He created the heavens and earth and declared them good, over the course of seven days (with the seventh being an enigmatic and unexplained "rest" day). Is it such a stretch to think that the great work restoring his kingdom and making all things new and good, might follow the same pattern?

Anyway, that's one explanation of the seventh seal that suits my view. There are one or two others. But I don't think I can say with perfect confidence if any of my explanations are correct -- and frankly, I don't think anyone should be too confident about its meaning.

Not earthly time but Heavenly time. Twice we are told that 1 day to God in heaven equates to 1000 years to us on earth. Psalm 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8. So between the Sixth Seal and the commencement of the great Tribulation Trumpets and Bowls, there will be a period of about 20 years. Realizing this truth makes understanding of the Revelation events easier.

I don't take those verses to be a "formula" for equating human time with God time. Is a billion years for us like a million years to God? I think it's better to just understand that the passage of time may be a big deal to us, but it's inconsequential to God.

In fact, that verse from 2 Peter 3 demonstrates my point:

2 Pet 3:8 - But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.​

This shows that the time relationship works both ways. This expression shows God's superiority with respect to time in two different ways:

• We cannot really fathom a huge period of time (e.g. thousands of years), because we can witness only a tiny part of it. God can witness any vast span of time perfectly without any sense of boredom or fatigue.
• We also cannot fathom a tiny period of time (e.g. nanoseconds), because it is so fleeting. God can comprehend a whole universe of detailed activity going on within that tiny speck of time.

 

[keras]

Unfortunately, 'Revelation logic' as proposed by Revlog, leads to blind alleys and denial of what the Lord has planned.
In over 100 prophesies throughout the OT and the NT, we are informed of a forthcoming judgement/punishment of the nations by fire from the sky. It is His Day of vengeance and wrath, a single Day that the Lord will burn up His enemies. Isaiah 10:17
Revelation 6:17 tells us the 6th Seal is the Day of the Lord's wrath. After that comes the 7th Seal, when God will keep His silence while the rest of the end time prophesies unfold.
A 20 year period for it all is about right, then the culmination comes of the Return of Jesus in His glory to commence His Millennial reign.

 

[Revlog]

Hi keras. I know we disagree on some big points, but I don't see where you got the idea that I denied the "destroy nations by fire in one day" claim.

Personally, this sounds to me like it is fulfilled in Rev 19:12-15 when Christ comes with eyes of fire to strike down nations with the sword of his mouth. I may be more willing to allow a figuratively understanding of this than you are, but if this is the best reason you can find for rejecting my view and calling it blind alleys, perhaps you should keep looking.

Now, I do believe that the Day of the Lord is a broader period of time (I think one month), encompassing the bowl judgments -- they are the bowls full of the wrath of God (Rev 15:7) after all.

However, I accept that the concluding event of the bowls is the visible return of Christ in chapter 19, which is probably a one day execution of all unredeemed people -- possibly by fire.

Revelation 6:17 tells us the 6th Seal is the Day of the Lord's wrath. After that comes the 7th Seal, when God will keep His silence while the rest of the end time prophesies unfold.
A 20 year period for it all is about right, then the culmination comes of the Return of Jesus in His glory to commence His Millennial reign.

Alright, this is where your view has taken you, but my view isn't proven wrong just because it's different from yours, is it?