Derive a sense of timing from the structure of Revelation

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This tribulation will be immediately followed by the signs of Christ return: sun and moon darkened, shaking, and the visible return of Christ (Matt 24:29-30). This must be the Day of the Lord.

I agree with you. Most however believe that since Matt says the sun will be as blood that these cannot be the same event. However everything lines ups with the events of matt 24 and the seals of Rev. Additionally can't find the stars falling from heaven when the sun and moon are darkened anywhere but the 6th seal. We also see the Son of Man coming in the clouds in Matt 24 with the nations mourning and then in at the 6th seal we see the kings trying to hide from him who sits on the throne.






Remember, in the sixth seal, the earth just saw the sky shaken, the stars fall to earth, an earthquake moves all mountains and islands, and then the "kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains in an effort to hide from the presence of God and the wrath of the Lamb, because the "great day of their wrath has come" and "nobody is able to stand".

Now AFTER this (in your view) comes an event that destroys the 1/3 of the grass and trees? That strikes me as like blowing up a firecracker right after a nuclear blast.

The wrath is just beginning with the trumpets. When the kings were hiding, it was not because Rev 19 was occurring, it was because a harvest was occurring. And those left on the earth were to face the wrath of God. I agree with you that the books of Rev are not chronological, though. I think this harvest is actually the Rev 14 harvest. (We see the wrath of God start at the 6th seal. We also see the grapes tossed into the wrath of God at the end of Rev 14)



But it gets weirder: There are some more events that harm 1/3 of the earth, and then come stings that harm people except the 144,000 servants bearing the seal of God (from chapter 7).

It does get weirder. However, It does not say that everyone gets stung except the 144000. It says they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. Does that mean the 144000 are still on earth? We see they are in heaven at the 1st part of Rev 14 and we see that the wrath of God has not begun until the harvest at the end of Rev 14. Also notice this:
Rev 9
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.


So something has happened if men cannot die..........They are in the wrath of God and there is no escape.....and we are not appointed to wrath. And neither is Israel. And neither is the 144000 from each tribe.







I gets even weirder in the seventh trumpet where we see Christ beginning to reign with the kingdom of God having come to the earth, and his wrath had come to the nations. Again, this is odd after all people on earth had faced the wrath of the Lamb in the sixth seal. Again, it seems like we have reached the end according to the OT prophets, but there are still the seven bowls to go!

So next we see bowls of Gods wrath which destroy fully the things that were earlier 1/3 destroyed. In the fifth bowl, the earth is darkened for a second time (the OT prophets mentioned one such event). In the sixth seal, armies assemble for war against God. Apparently, God didn't quite win when the kings and commander fled His wrath earlier in the sixth seal, or when his wrath came again against the nations in the seventh trumpet. In the seventh bowl, we see a second earthquake the moves all the mountains and islands (the OT prophets mentioned one shaking of the earth). Later we see the return of Christ as king, even though he already began to reign on earth back in the seventh trumpet.

I think the bowls and trumpets occur in roughly the same timeframe. However, consider this...We see the wrath of God start at the 6th seal. We also see the wrath of God start at the end of Rev 14.




Somewhere in all of this, there are two witnesses operating for 1260 days, some say this is in the first half, some say the second half, and they are striking the earth with plagues.

And some say the tribulation is over....the time of Jacobs trouble......and the 2 witnesses are operating during the wrath of God.


. This is the same Day of the Lord we saw in the sixth seal, and it is described again in the seventh trumpet. This is the second description of that same event.

Or is the 6th seal the start of the Day of the Lord and the 7 trumpet when Rev 19 occurs?
 
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I won't attempt to discuss all the points as posted, because I have already given my belief on the sequence of Revelation events and that The Day of the Lord is just the Sixth Seal. The 3.5 year Tribulation is the Trumpets and Bowls.
Just one issue with Choose wisely. You state that the 144,000 are in heaven by Rev 14:1.
This is not correct, as the Lamb stands on Mt Zion. then in verse 2, they hear a great sound from heaven...
The 144,000 are missionaries who go out in pairs; as in Luke 10:1-12, to proclaim the Gospel of the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 49:6, Isaiah 66:19
 
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I won't attempt to discuss all the points as posted, because I have already given my belief on the sequence of Revelation events and that The Day of the Lord is just the Sixth Seal. The 3.5 year Tribulation is the Trumpets and Bowls.
Just one issue with Choose wisely. You state that the 144,000 are in heaven by Rev 14:1.
This is not correct, as the Lamb stands on Mt Zion. then in verse 2, they hear a great sound from heaven...
The 144,000 are missionaries who go out in pairs; as in Luke 10:1-12, to proclaim the Gospel of the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 49:6, Isaiah 66:19

Hi Keras,

I believe the 144000 have been redeemed from the earth. Also as first fruits, they are the wave offering presented to God. This means that they have been removed from the field and been presented at the temple. This is also a guarantee from God of a harvest. Since the 144000 are from the 12 tribes, we know the harvest will be Israel.......even as we would know if the first fruits were corn, the harvest would be corn. The church is already at the place prepared for them at this point....pre trib. They were removed prior to the hour of testing.


14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
 
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Revlog;65113945]

I agree with you. Most however believe that since Matt says the sun will be as blood that these cannot be the same event. However everything lines ups with the events of matt 24 and the seals of Rev. Additionally can't find the stars falling from heaven when the sun and moon are darkened anywhere but the 6th seal. We also see the Son of Man coming in the clouds in Matt 24 with the nations mourning and then in at the 6th seal we see the kings trying to hide from him who sits on the throne.

The wrath is just beginning with the trumpets. When the kings were hiding, it was not because Rev 19 was occurring, it was because a harvest was occurring. And those left on the earth were to face the wrath of God. I agree with you that the books of Rev are not chronological, though. I think this harvest is actually the Rev 14 harvest. (We see the wrath of God start at the 6th seal. We also see the grapes tossed into the wrath of God at the end of Rev 14)

It does get weirder. However, It does not say that everyone gets stung except the 144000. It says they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. Does that mean the 144000 are still on earth? We see they are in heaven at the 1st part of Rev 14 and we see that the wrath of God has not begun until the harvest at the end of Rev 14. Also notice this:
Rev 9
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.


So something has happened if men cannot die..........They are in the wrath of God and there is no escape.....and we are not appointed to wrath. And neither is Israel. And neither is the 144000 from each tribe.

I think the bowls and trumpets occur in roughly the same timeframe. However, consider this...We see the wrath of God start at the 6th seal. We also see the wrath of God start at the end of Rev 14.

And some say the tribulation is over....the time of Jacobs trouble......and the 2 witnesses are operating during the wrath of God.

Or is the 6th seal the start of the Day of the Lord and the 7 trumpet when Rev 19 occurs?

There are now MANY prewrathers, who have followed the mistakes of their leaders, and believe that the days of great tribulation come before the 6th seal. John, however, does not even introduce the one that CAUSES the days of great tribulation until chapter 13, just after the midpoint of the week. Their theories require vast rearranging of the book of Revelation.

The chronology of Revelation makes PERFECT SENSE as it is written; there is simply no reason to rearrange it.

I agree, the wrath of God begins with the trumpets. The people were hiding and calling for the rocks to fall on them, because they just felt the great earthquake described very well in Isaiah 2 as the coming Day of the Lord, and they saw the sun turned dark and the moon into blood as told by Joel as a sign of the coming Day. NO WONDER they were scared: they know the Day is immiment at that time and will start VERY SOON in earnest. There is no "harvest" at that time and Jesus was NOT COMING. However, they may well have seen Him at the pretrib rapture. No one really knows if He will be visible or not. However, they KNOW God is on this throne and He is ANGRY.

"the wrath of God has not begun until the harvest at the end of Rev 14"

This is not right. His wrath begins with the first trumpet judgment that begins the Day of the Lord and the destruction of the planet, and then CONTINUES on through chapter 16. Then, Jesus has wrath when He returns on the white horse. Why would you think it begins until the harvest?

there is no escape.....and we are not appointed to wrath. And neither is Israel. And neither is the 144000 from each tribe.

I agree, men will not be able to die: they are trapped in God's wrath. Good point. Great point: we, the church are not appointed to wrath, and neither is the 144,000, 12,000 from EACH TRIBE. However, the wrath is pointed at Israel first, then the nations later. Why do I say that?

Daniel 12:7Amplified Bible (AMP)

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right and his left hand toward the heavens and swore by Him Who lives forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half a time [or three and one-half years]; and when they have made an end of shattering and crushing the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

God is going to get Israel to the place where ONLY a miracle from God can save them. Today they trust too much in their OWN power.

I think the bowls and trumpets occur in roughly the same timeframe. However, consider this...We see the wrath of God start at the 6th seal. We also see the wrath of God start at the end of Rev 14.

WHAT? Why would you even think this? the bowls of God's wrath will not be poured out into the kingdoms of this world are transferred to God. God would not have AUTHORITY to destroy the planet while it was still under the authority of man. But Adam's lease ENDS and the Kingdoms of the world become the sole property of GOD! THEN He will have authority to do whatever He chooses.

Yes, John writes "The day of His wrath has come." However this is an Aorist verb that shows no timing information at all. We must then use the context to get the timing. The 7th seal is the official starting time in heaven. On earth, it will begin with the first trumpet judgment. Can you find the word "start" or "beginning" in chapter 14, concerning God's wrath? I can't.

And some say the tribulation is over....the time of Jacobs trouble......and the 2 witnesses are operating during the wrath of God.

These "some" have no idea of the intent of the Author. The days of Great tribulation do not even start until the false prophet shows up (AFTER the midpoint of the week) and they build the great image, and then the mark, and then force people to worship it. THAT is what will start the really intense tribulation: not able to buy or sell, hunger and thirst, and knowing you will lose your head if you are caught: this is GREAT PRESSURE to just take the mark. God does not tell us how long after the midpoint abomination the false prophet shows up. the Beast will not construct the great image the day after the abomination; there will days, weeks, probably months before the image is created and the mark established. However, as soon as Satan is cast down, he will induce the Beast to go after the Jews and believers, so tribulation begins then and get worse. So the pressure will build as time goes on after the abomination. If one is killed, they really won't care of it was before the image or after it - they will be dead and cannot be killed twice! It will be quite like a Jew hidden in Berlin in 1943: their chances of escape are ZERO. Only this time it will be world wide.

During the last half of the week, SATAN's wrath will be felt in the great pressure put on people to take his mark: again, hunger, thirst, fear and millions beheaded. This is the wrath of Satan. But at the same time, God's wrath has not subsided: He was angry through the trumpets and is even MORE angry when He begins to pour out the vials. WHEN will the vials come? I believe when the days of Great Tribulation are at their very PEAK. God will use the vials to SHORTEN those days of GT. Therefore, BOTH God's wrath and Satan's wrath are being felt at the same time: from the moment Satan is cast down at the midpoint of the week.

Or is the 6th seal the start of the Day of the Lord and the 7 trumpet when Rev 19 occurs?

Neither: there is no need to rearrange! The 6th seal is for the SIGNS of the day, and the day begins very shortly after that. (God has great mercy and will allow TIME for men to repent after they see the signs. This time is the time it will take to seal the 144,000.) The 7th trumpet will mark the exact midpoint; while Rev. 19 is AFTER the entire 70th week and after the wedding and supper in heaven.

LAMAD
 
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There are now MANY prewrathers, who have followed the mistakes of their leaders, and believe that the days of great tribulation come before the 6th seal.

Well, I don't consider myself a prewrather, nor do I have a leader beyond the Christ......but I do believe the tribulation is over before the seventh seal is opened.

Their theories require vast rearranging of the book of Revelation.
I am unaware of their theories, but sounds like I need to check them out.


The chronology of Revelation makes PERFECT SENSE as it is written; there is simply no reason to rearrange it.

Actually, the chronology does not make sense in the order presented. But we can put the visions in order if we just read what it says.



I agree, the wrath of God begins with the trumpets. The people were hiding and calling for the rocks to fall on them, because they just felt the great earthquake described very well in Isaiah 2 as the coming Day of the Lord, and they saw the sun turned dark and the moon into blood as told by Joel as a sign of the coming Day. NO WONDER they were scared: they know the Day is immiment at that time and will start VERY SOON in earnest.

We do agree on a few things.



There is no "harvest" at that time and Jesus was NOT COMING. However, they may well have seen Him at the pretrib rapture. No one really knows if He will be visible or not.
And yet we see a great multitude that came out of tribulation.
"the wrath of God has not begun until the harvest at the end of Rev 14"

This is not right. His wrath begins with the first trumpet judgment that begins the Day of the Lord and the destruction of the planet, and then CONTINUES on through chapter 16. Then, Jesus has wrath when He returns on the white horse. Why would you think it begins until the harvest?

I believe that these verses show the harvest. And I also believe it shows others that are cast into the wrath of God. The same wrath you see starting at the 6th seal with the kings wanting to hide.
REV 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.









there is no escape.....and we are not appointed to wrath. And neither is Israel. And neither is the 144000 from each tribe.

I agree, men will not be able to die: they are trapped in God's wrath. Good point. Great point: we, the church are not appointed to wrath, and neither is the 144,000, 12,000 from EACH TRIBE. However, the wrath is pointed at Israel first, then the nations later. Why do I say that?
Gods wrath is not pointed at Israel. Jacobs trouble is the tribulation which is over at the sun moon stars event and then a harvest comes.


I think the bowls and trumpets occur in roughly the same timeframe. However, consider this...We see the wrath of God start at the 6th seal. We also see the wrath of God start at the end of Rev 14.

WHAT? Why would you even think this? the bowls of God's wrath will not be poured out into the kingdoms of this world are transferred to God. God would not have AUTHORITY to destroy the planet while it was still under the authority of man. But Adam's lease ENDS and the Kingdoms of the world become the sole property of GOD! THEN He will have authority to do whatever He chooses.

Not really following you here. The new heaven and new earth don't occur until the end of the 1000 years.


Yes, John writes "The day of His wrath has come." However this is an Aorist verb that shows no timing information at all. We must then use the context to get the timing. The 7th seal is the official starting time in heaven. On earth, it will begin with the first trumpet judgment. Can you find the word "start" or "beginning" in chapter 14, concerning God's wrath? I can't.
I would say the angel swinging the sickle and casting the grapes into the wrath of God sounds like a beginning. The harvest is ripe sounds like something is about to begin......the harvest to the clouds with one like the Son of Man and the harvest to Gods wrath for those that don't know salvation.



And some say the tribulation is over....the time of Jacobs trouble......and the 2 witnesses are operating during the wrath of God.

These "some" have no idea of the intent of the Author. The days of Great tribulation do not even start until the false prophet shows up (AFTER the midpoint of the week) and they build the great image, and then the mark, and then force people to worship it. THAT is what will start the really intense tribulation: not able to buy or sell, hunger and thirst, and knowing you will lose your head if you are caught: this is GREAT PRESSURE to just take the mark. God does not tell us how long after the midpoint abomination the false prophet shows up. the Beast will not construct the great image the day after the abomination; there will days, weeks, probably months before the image is created and the mark established. However, as soon as Satan is cast down, he will induce the Beast to go after the Jews and believers, so tribulation begins then and get worse. So the pressure will build as time goes on after the abomination. If one is killed, they really won't care of it was before the image or after it - they will be dead and cannot be killed twice! It will be quite like a Jew hidden in Berlin in 1943: their chances of escape are ZERO. Only this time it will be world wide.

During the last half of the week, SATAN's wrath will be felt in the great pressure put on people to take his mark: again, hunger, thirst, fear and millions beheaded. This is the wrath of Satan. But at the same time, God's wrath has not subsided: He was angry through the trumpets and is even MORE angry when He begins to pour out the vials. WHEN will the vials come? I believe when the days of Great Tribulation are at their very PEAK. God will use the vials to SHORTEN those days of GT. Therefore, BOTH God's wrath and Satan's wrath are being felt at the same time: from the moment Satan is cast down at the midpoint of the week.

Interesting that you should mention the false prophet. He is the rider on the white horse. He is the one who is ruler of the 7th kingdom. But the eighth is to come......the antichrist who was and is not and will come again.


Or is the 6th seal the start of the Day of the Lord and the 7 trumpet when Rev 19 occurs?

Neither: there is no need to rearrange! The 6th seal is for the SIGNS of the day, and the day begins very shortly after that. (God has great mercy and will allow TIME for men to repent after they see the signs. This time is the time it will take to seal the 144,000.) The 7th trumpet will mark the exact midpoint; while Rev. 19 is AFTER the entire 70th week and after the wedding and supper in heaven.

The tribulation is over at the end of the 70th week. The time of Jacobs trouble is over. The harvest is come and the wrath of God begins.
 
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Hide us: for the Great Day of the Lord’s Wrath has come and who can stand?

Revelation 6:12-17...The sun will be darkened and the moon blood red. The leaders of the nations and every person, rich or poor will try to hide themselves, they will call to the mountains and the earth: ‘Hide us from Almighty God and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great Day of their wrath has come and who can stand? Hosea 10:8
Luke 23:29-31 These times are bad, but the time is coming when people will say: ‘Happy are those without children to worry about’. At that time they will call to the mountains; Fall on us, and to the hills; cover us.
Isaiah 2:12-21 The Lord has a Day of doom in store, for all the proud and arrogant and all their idols. For all fortifications and military strength, for the leaders of the nations, all will be brought low and the Lord alone will be exalted on that Day.
When the Lord arises and strikes the world with terror, everyone will try to hide in caves and holes in the ground from the power of His judgement.

2 Peter 3:12 Look forward to the coming day of the Lord, that Day will set the sky ablaze and flames will envelope the earth.
Ezekiel 21:4-11 O man: Why do you groan so bitterly? Because of what I have heard, is about to take place. Everyone will be terrified, they will wet their pants in fear. The Lord draws His sword of slaughter, sharpened and ready, from its scabbard. The Destroyer will kill both the righteous and wicked alike in the [holy] Land.
Jeremiah 4:23-29 The earth is reeling and in chaos, the land is shaking, the hills rocking to and fro. The Land becomes empty, even the birds have gone and the cities are flattened and the Land desolated. The sky is darkened and to escape the approaching disaster, the people dive for cover and scramble for shelter in the mountains. The Lord’s plan is made known, He will not relent or change it.
Joel 1:15-20 The Day is near, the Day of the Lord – it comes as a mighty destruction from the Almighty. It is already before us, joy and gladness are gone, now the [holy] Land is burnt and desolated, for fire has consumed the towns and everything in the countryside. Ref: REB. Some verses abridged.

Four times the prophets tell us that in the 24 hour period between the initial flash and the arrival of the superheated mass of the enormous coronal mass ejection the Lord will use on His Day of Wrath, people will be terrified and will scramble for cover. Many other prophecies say how all will be shocked, frightened or paralyzed with fear.
The sky will be darkened because the sun will be obscured by the approaching mass and the moon will burn bright red from the thermite reaction between the superheated hydrogen and the aluminium oxide of the moon dust. Joel 2:31
The result of this sunstrike will leave the entire Middle East burnt and desolate, but most of the rest of the world will survive to establish a One World Government and as Isaiah 30:26 says: On the Day He takes action with a CME, that is the Day He will save His people. They will undertake the Second Exodus and live in Israel as the Lord originally intended.
 
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Well, I don't consider myself a prewrather, nor do I have a leader beyond the Christ......but I do believe the tribulation is over before the seventh seal is opened.


The tribulation is over at the end of the 70th week. The time of Jacobs trouble is over. The harvest is come and the wrath of God begins.

the tribulation is over before the seventh seal is opened.

Are you aware that the two words together, "great tribulation" were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus to describe those days after the mark is established and people cannot buy or sell, and are trying their best to keep their heads? Jesus had to go on and add that there never has been and never will be days as bad and these specific days of great tribulation. Are you aware that Jesus spoke to the church at Thyatira, specifically about a would be prophetess named Jezebel, and said that he would cast her and those that commit adultery with her into "great tribulation."

Question: was Jesus going to keep her and those with her alive for the next 2000 years so they could then suffer "those days" of "great tribulation" that Jesus spoke of in Mat. 24? "Those days" are still ahead of us! I can assure you, that was not the intended meaning. God can create great tribulation ANY TIME. In fact, there are some on this forum that INSIST (incorrectly) that the days Jesus spoke of were fulfilled in 70 AD.

So what is the real meaning of "great tribulation?" If someone is killed for their testimony of and belief in Christ, can they be killed over and over again? I submit that if someone has been murdered because they believe in Jesus Christ, "tribulation" could not have been any greater for them - they suffered "great tribulation." Thayers says of "tribulation" that it means literally "pressure." When the three Hebrew guys were threatened with the fiery furnace if they would not bow to an idol, that was great PRESSURE. When Antiochus threatened terrible things of the women that if they circumcised their child, that was great PRESSURE.

What is the intent of the author in Rev. 7 of this great crowd without number? It is my guess, if John had just left out those two words, "great tribulation," almost the entire church would recognize these as the raptured Bride of Christ. But because John said these came out of "great tribulation," most think they are "tribulation" saints, meaning they came out of "those days" of "great tribulation" that Jesus spoke of. I can assure you, that is NOT the intent of the author! All John means is that at the time of the rapture, saints around the world will be being murdered for their testimony. It is that way in half the world today, and it will grow steadily worse.

What is the truth? John has not even started the 70th week, MUCH LESS arrived at "those days" of "great tribulation" that Jesus spoke of. In John's narrative, "those days" will not arrive until AFTER the midpoint of the week - and John has yet to even START the week.

Picture a rolled up scroll, sealed with 7 seals. NO ONE can unroll the scroll to reveal what is written INSIDE until all 7 seals are broken.

Notice how Jeremiah wrote about his scroll with a land purchase:

Jer. 32:4 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Take these evidences, this evidence of the purchase, both which is sealed, and this evidence which is open; and put them in an earthen vessel, that they may continue many days.

What is written INSIDE cannot be read until the seal or seals are broken. In John's scroll, when one seal was broken, a small portion could be unrolled and read, but what was inside would be hidden until all 7 seals were broken; in other words, Revelation from the 7th seal onward, must wait to be read (or take place) until AFTER the 7th seal is broken. Therefore, NO TRUMPET can be sounded until AFTER the 7th seal is broken. The trumpets and vials are written in the middle of the scroll, and cannot be read until the scroll is unrolled.

In Revelation, "those days" of "great tribulation" cannot begin until AFTER John as introduced us to the BEAST of Rev. 13, the one who will CAUSE the days of "great tribulation." Then in Rev. 14 we read this - right AFTER the angel warns of not taking the mark:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


Notice the word, HENCEFORTH......John is telling us that "those days" Jesus spoke of are STILL FUTURE in Chapter 14. There is even MORE proof of this:

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, ...



Don't even THINK God would give this warning long AFTER the mark was established! WE don't serve that kind of God! No, this warning will be given BEFORE the mark will be established and then enforced.

John is then showing us that the days of GT Jesus spoke of are STILL ahead, that is in chapters 15 and 16.

The truth is, Revelation is in perfect chronology, and when these events take place, they will take place in the very order John as written them. John begins "the trib" or the 70th week with the 7th seal. He marked the exact midpoint with the 7th trumpet, and ends the week with the 7th vial...so the entire week is "marked" with sevens. "those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus will NOT BEGIN until AFTER the warning is given in Rev. 14. How long will this be after the abomination that divides the week? John does not tell us.

Actually, the chronology does not make sense in the order presented.

Please show us something that does not make sense to you in the order written.I could not disagree more. It makes perfect sense to me. it is just like a history book written in advance.

God is a God of great patience, waiting for His harvest. Do you not then see that His anger or wrath is just as great as His patience? His patience has waited for nearly 2000 years of the church age! I think then, His anger or wrath can last at least 7 years, and John shows us that it DOES. It is just beginning at the 6th seal, when the 7th will soon be broken to begin God's judgment upon the earth. His anger builds as men refuse to repent.

In this picture of harvest in Rev. 14, we certainly see His wrath, but NOT THE BEGINNING of His wrath.

Do you really think that God will put humans into a great wine press and squeeze out their blood? Do you really think God, sitting on a cloud, will reach down to earth with a sickle and kill people? I don't! This is IMAGERY like painting a picture - such as Picasso was famous for. It is not to be taken literally. HOW will God "reap" the righteous at this point in time, just before the days of "great tribulation?" Their heads will be cut off! (Remind you of a sickle?) How then will the wicked be killed? They will NOT BE at this moment in time, just before the days of GT. If they were killed here, HOW could the days of GT happen? Of course they could not. No, this imagery here is given as a PROPHECY of the days to come when the saints will be hunted down like animals and beheaded. Then after God cuts short "those days" of "great tribulation" by pouring out the vials of His wrath with the plagues, then He willl gather the nations for the great winepress of His wrath. That will be the great battle of Armageddon, with the combined armies of TEN nations together, all who will be slaughtered.

As Jesus descends, He will send out angels to perform the parable of the tares. Then will come the sheep and goat judgment where ALL the goats will be terminated. All these things together will be the great winepress of God's wrath.

Gods wrath is not pointed at Israel. Jacobs trouble is the tribulation which is over at the sun moon stars event

Perhaps I can copy Bible2: are you thinking of the signs in the sun and moon as written in Matt. 24? Yes, those signs DO come AFTER the days of GT. But the signs in Rev. 6 come BEFORE the entire 70th week. Please, read Joel 2 & 3 where he shows us BOTH of these signs; the first as signs for the DAY and the second as signs for His coming.

I think you are missing the intent of the Author: God's wrath is shown beginning in chapter 6 or 7, and continued on through the entire book to Jesus return at Armageddon. Do you not think God might have just a little wrath at Israel, because for 2000 years they have rejected the SON who came to die for them - especially the vast majority that don't even believe in God now? I will concede this point: perhaps God is FAR MORE angry with those who are hunting down Israel and trying to destroy them.

Do you not see that God is STILL angry in the form of Jesus Christ as He descends and enters into battle with the unrighteous? Where do you see God's wrath as ending? I believe the verses in Isa. 63 that speak of One returning from Bozrah in Edom with His garments red with blood is speaking of Jesus at His return. I think those that flee when they see the abomination will flee to Bozrah and Jesus will rescue them. If this is indeed about Jesus, then He is still very angry!


Interesting that you should mention the false prophet. He is the rider on the white horse. He is the one who is ruler of the 7th kingdom. But the eighth is to come......the antichrist who was and is not and will come again.

You are going to have to RETHINK this. It is FAR from the Author's intent. You cannot take the first seal OUT of its context! What is the context? The vision of the throne room, especially the last few verses of chapter 5. Did you not see that this was a vision of the PAST? John was seeing the throne room BEFORE Jesus rose from the dead. This is shown by the Holy Spirit still there in the throne room in chapter 4, but sent down the moment Jesus ascended. It is further shown by the fact that Jesus was not immediatly seen at the right hand of the Father. WHY was He not seen? He was still on the earth! He had not yet ascended back into heaven. It is further shown by the search John watched for one worthy to break the seals: that first search ENDED in failure; "no man was found." WHY was no man found? Because at that time Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become the Redeemer. All this is the CONTEXT of the first seal.

John then saw Jesus as He ascended - right after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. John is pointing to the time of Jesus death, burial and then resurrection: so about 32 AD. The timing is critical for a correct understanding of the first seals. They were broken about 32 AD. You cannot find 2000 years there between any of the verses after Jesus arrived back in the throne room. He went immediately to get the scroll out of the Father's hand, and immediately began breaking the seals.

The first horse then, was sent out about 32 AD. John and the Holy Spirit colored this first horse WHITE. That is NOT the color of deception, it is the color of righteousness! John used white 17 times in Revelation. I challenge you to look up each one. The white horse are rider are to represent the CHURCH sent out of Jeruselem to Samaria and then to the world. There would be conquering and overcoming because the kingdoms of the world were (and still are) controlled by Satan the dragon. He would fight tooth and nail to prevent the advance of the church. Of course he failed.

The tribulation is over at the end of the 70th week. The time of Jacobs trouble is over. The harvest is come and the wrath of God begins.

God's wrath is felt from the first trumpet judgment that begins the 70th week to the end of the Battle of Armageddon. John had it right: "the day of His wrath has come" and this written just before the 7th seal that officially opens the 70th week and Day of the Lord. You did notice this fits PERFECTLY with the prophecy of Joel 2, that the sun would turn dark and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord?

You have shown no good reason to rearrange the book. No one ever will, for it is written in devine order.

LAMAD
 
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iamlamad, keras, Choose Wisely and others -

Thank you for taking the time to consider my view and take time to offer replies and criticisms.

First of all, I don't intend to argue anyone into submission, and I realize that it would be futile to try. The fact that each of us wish to cling to own own view may to some extent be the result of pride, but I think it's also safe to say that it's the result of a sincere effort to understand Revelation, which is by no means an easy book.

Even though your views are different than mine, I would much rather commend each of you than dispute with you. I think you all must realize that Revelation is rarely taught in churches today. Those of us who think the prophets and Revelation are important are a relatively rare breen who have more reason for unity than disharmony.

At this point, I think we've each had our say. I do intend to post a few responses to issues that have been raised since my last post. Please feel free to do likewise.

Maybe I'll explore the matter from a different angle in a different thread.

For the moment, I am busy with work, so these things will have to wait. But again, I do appreciate your participation in this thread.
 
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iamlamad, keras, Choose Wisely and others -

Thank you for taking the time to consider my view and take time to offer replies and criticisms.

First of all, I don't intend to argue anyone into submission, and I realize that it would be futile to try. The fact that each of us wish to cling to own own view may to some extent be the result of pride, but I think it's also safe to say that it's the result of a sincere effort to understand Revelation, which is by no means an easy book.

Even though your views are different than mine, I would much rather commend each of you than dispute with you. I think you all must realize that Revelation is rarely taught in churches today.

You can have the last word as I just wanted to share an inconvenient and uncomforatable view, ie, if the Trumpets in Revelation are only expounding IIThess.2:11, 12 (God's preliminary miraculous judgments), and eyes where opened up to God's righteous divine justice and wrath, Churches' economics would immediate plunge into the red threatening the Minister's pensions and/or retirements to say the least. :idea:

They are wise to stay clear of Rev. chapter 9 (higher order demons deceiving even the 'elect') for sure only propagating watered down interpretations with the rest. :o

Those of us who think the prophets and Revelation are important are a relatively rare breen who have more reason for unity than disharmony.

At this point, I think we've each had our say. I do intend to post a few responses to issues that have been raised since my last post. Please feel free to do likewise.

Maybe I'll explore the matter from a different angle in a different thread.

For the moment, I am busy with work, so these things will have to wait. But again, I do appreciate your participation in this thread.

Unpopular old Jack ;)
 
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iamlamad

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iamlamad, keras, Choose Wisely and others -

Thank you for taking the time to consider my view and take time to offer replies and criticisms.

First of all, I don't intend to argue anyone into submission, and I realize that it would be futile to try. The fact that each of us wish to cling to own own view may to some extent be the result of pride, but I think it's also safe to say that it's the result of a sincere effort to understand Revelation, which is by no means an easy book.

Even though your views are different than mine, I would much rather commend each of you than dispute with you. I think you all must realize that Revelation is rarely taught in churches today. Those of us who think the prophets and Revelation are important are a relatively rare breen who have more reason for unity than disharmony.

At this point, I think we've each had our say. I do intend to post a few responses to issues that have been raised since my last post. Please feel free to do likewise.

Maybe I'll explore the matter from a different angle in a different thread.

For the moment, I am busy with work, so these things will have to wait. But again, I do appreciate your participation in this thread.

Your post says a LOT about you! :thumbsup:

After all, we will be spending eternity together.

LAMAD
 
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iamlamad;65118006] [
What is the intent of the author in Rev. 7 of this great crowd without number? It is my guess, if John had just left out those two words, "great tribulation," almost the entire church would recognize these as the raptured Bride of Christ. But because John said these came out of "great tribulation," most think they are "tribulation" saints, meaning they came out of "those days" of "great tribulation" that Jesus spoke of. I can assure you, that is NOT the intent of the author! All John means is that at the time of the rapture, saints around the world will be being murdered for their testimony. It is that way in half the world today, and it will grow steadily worse.

There is little chance that your assurance me of Johns' intent can be guaranteed to be accurate. This is only your opinion.



but what was inside would be hidden until all 7 seals were broken; in other words, Revelation from the 7th seal onward, must wait to be read (or take place) until AFTER the 7th seal is broken. Therefore, NO TRUMPET can be sounded until AFTER the 7th seal is broken. The trumpets and vials are written in the middle of the scroll, and cannot be read until the scroll is unrolled.
Could not agree more.

In Revelation, "those days" of "great tribulation" cannot begin until AFTER John as introduced us to the BEAST of Rev. 13, the one who will CAUSE the days of "great tribulation." Then in Rev. 14 we read this - right AFTER the angel warns of not taking the mark:

Try and follow.......if Matt 24 has the abomination of desolation.....which will occur in the midst of the week........and immediately after the tribulation the sun moon and stars signs occur.........you have a problem. So you say the signs of Matt 24 are not the signs of Rev 6. SO WHAT. THEY STILL OCCUR BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD. Therefore we know that the tribulation is over before the day of the Lord begins. Because of this TRUTH we can see that Rev 13 has to occur before the sixth seal of Rev 6. Are you following that?????? Rev is not in Chronological order. Do I need to rinse and repeat?


Don't even THINK God would give this warning long AFTER the mark was established! WE don't serve that kind of God! No, this warning will be given BEFORE the mark will be established and then enforced.

John is then showing us that the days of GT Jesus spoke of are STILL ahead, that is in chapters 15 and 16.

The truth is, Revelation is in perfect chronology, and when these events take place, they will take place in the very order John as written them. John begins "the trib" or the 70th week with the 7th seal. He marked the exact midpoint with the 7th trumpet, and ends the week with the 7th vial...so the entire week is "marked" with sevens. "those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus will NOT BEGIN until AFTER the warning is given in Rev. 14. How long will this be after the abomination that divides the week? John does not tell us.
Read my prior answer as it will mute this also.

Actually, the chronology does not make sense in the order presented.

Please show us something that does not make sense to you in the order written.I could not disagree more. It makes perfect sense to me. it is just like a history book written in advance.

I will rinse and repeat. We can see the tribulation in Matt 24 as evidenced by the abomination of desolation. We also see sun moon and stars event of Matt 24 immediately after the tribulation. And we can tell by Joel 2

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

To conclude.......we know that the Day of the Lord begins during the 6th seal. We can see in Matt 24 the tribulation is over before the Day of the Lord. Therefore chapters like Rev 13 have to come before the end of the 6th seal....there is no other choice. Cut and dried.....no question about it.



In this picture of harvest in Rev. 14, we certainly see His wrath, but NOT THE BEGINNING of His wrath.
Rinse and repeat. Time to think carefully.
Do you really think that God will put humans into a great wine press and squeeze out their blood? Do you really think God, sitting on a cloud, will reach down to earth with a sickle and kill people? I don't! This is IMAGERY like painting a picture - such as Picasso was famous for. It is not to be taken literally. HOW will God "reap" the righteous at this point in time, just before the days of "great tribulation?" Their heads will be cut off! (Remind you of a sickle?) How then will the wicked be killed? They will NOT BE at this moment in time, just before the days of GT. If they were killed here, HOW could the days of GT happen? Of course they could not. No, this imagery here is given as a PROPHECY of the days to come when the saints will be hunted down like animals and beheaded. Then after God cuts short "those days" of "great tribulation" by pouring out the vials of His wrath with the plagues, then He willl gather the nations for the great winepress of His wrath. That will be the great battle of Armageddon, with the combined armies of TEN nations together, all who will be slaughtered.

Exactly it is IMAGERY. But that image is about A harvest of the righteous and the unrighteous being cast INTO the wrath of God. If you reread the rinse and repeat and understand the order of what Gods word says, you should be ready to realize you need to re-evaluate.






Perhaps I can copy Bible2: are you thinking of the signs in the sun and moon as written in Matt. 24? Yes, those signs DO come AFTER the days of GT. But the signs in Rev. 6 come BEFORE the entire 70th week. Please, read Joel 2 & 3 where he shows us BOTH of these signs; the first as signs for the DAY and the second as signs for His coming.


Rinse and repeat the above. We can prove that the tribulation (70th week of Daniel and the time of Jacobs trouble) occurs before the Day of the Lord which starts at the 6th seal. If you need to make a chart to understand this....do so.


I think you are missing the intent of the Author: God's wrath is shown beginning in chapter 6 or 7, and continued on through the entire book to Jesus return at Armageddon. Do you not think God might have just a little wrath at Israel, because for 2000 years they have rejected the SON who came to die for them - especially the vast majority that don't even believe in God now? I will concede this point: perhaps God is FAR MORE angry with those who are hunting down Israel and trying to destroy them.
Israel will not go through the wrath........the time of Jacobs trouble is the tribulation which occurs before the wrath of God.....Which we can prove....Rinse and Repeat









[/FONT][/SIZE]The tribulation is over at the end of the 70th week. The time of Jacobs trouble is over. The harvest is come and the wrath of God begins.

God's wrath is felt from the first trumpet judgment that begins the 70th week to the end of the Battle of Armageddon. John had it right: "the day of His wrath has come" and this written just before the 7th seal that officially opens the 70th week and Day of the Lord. You did notice this fits PERFECTLY with the prophecy of Joel 2, that the sun would turn dark and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord?


Rinse and repeat using Matt 24 for the tribulation timeframe and the signs after the tribulation. Use Joel 2 to understand the signs are before the wrath of God. Use Revelation 6 to understand when the wrath of God begins. Therefore we can conclude that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins and Therefore Revelation is not presented in chronological order. This is the truth that you must face if you want to understand Biblical prophecy....as this is only the beginning.

This is pretty much cut and dried and cannot be truthfully disputed.

So most of what you think you know about Biblical prophecy is probably wrong.......and if you are honest with yourself, you can prove with the above. Start with the things that you can prove......such as the tribulation is over before Gods wrath begins. The tribulation....70th week.....time of Jacobs trouble cannot occur during the wrath of God.
 
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iamlamad

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iamlamad;65118006] [

There is little chance that your assurance me of Johns' intent can be guaranteed to be accurate. This is only your opinion.

Could not agree more.

Try and follow.......if Matt 24 has the abomination of desolation.....which will occur in the midst of the week........and immediately after the tribulation the sun moon and stars signs occur.........you have a problem. So you say the signs of Matt 24 are not the signs of Rev 6. SO WHAT. THEY STILL OCCUR BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD. Therefore we know that the tribulation is over before the day of the Lord begins. Because of this TRUTH we can see that Rev 13 has to occur before the sixth seal of Rev 6. Are you following that?????? Rev is not in Chronological order. Do I need to rinse and repeat?

Read my prior answer as it will mute this also.

I will rinse and repeat. We can see the tribulation in Matt 24 as evidenced by the abomination of desolation. We also see sun moon and stars event of Matt 24 immediately after the tribulation. And we can tell by Joel 2
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

To conclude.......we know that the Day of the Lord begins during the 6th seal. We can see in Matt 24 the tribulation is over before the Day of the Lord. Therefore chapters like Rev 13 have to come before the end of the 6th seal....there is no other choice. Cut and dried.....no question about it.

Rinse and repeat. Time to think carefully.

Exactly it is IMAGERY. But that image is about A harvest of the righteous and the unrighteous being cast INTO the wrath of God. If you reread the rinse and repeat and understand the order of what Gods word says, you should be ready to realize you need to re-evaluate.

Rinse and repeat the above. We can prove that the tribulation (70th week of Daniel and the time of Jacobs trouble) occurs before the Day of the Lord which starts at the 6th seal. If you need to make a chart to understand this....do so.

Israel will not go through the wrath........the time of Jacobs trouble is the tribulation which occurs before the wrath of God.....Which we can prove....Rinse and Repeat

Rinse and repeat using Matt 24 for the tribulation timeframe and the signs after the tribulation. Use Joel 2 to understand the signs are before the wrath of God. Use Revelation 6 to understand when the wrath of God begins. Therefore we can conclude that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins and Therefore Revelation is not presented in chronological order. This is the truth that you must face if you want to understand Biblical prophecy....as this is only the beginning.

This is pretty much cut and dried and cannot be truthfully disputed.

So most of what you think you know about Biblical prophecy is probably wrong.......and if you are honest with yourself, you can prove with the above. Start with the things that you can prove......such as the tribulation is over before Gods wrath begins. The tribulation....70th week.....time of Jacobs trouble cannot occur during the wrath of God.

You have fallen into the same trap that ruined both Rosenthal's and Van Kampan's lives and ministry when they left the pretrib camp and created "prewrath."

Consider the story of the paralyzed man brought to Jesus.

Mat. 9
1 And he entered into a ship, and passed over, and came into his own city. 2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Do we read anything here about a roof being torn apart to lower this man down? No. However, read this version of the story:

Mark 2
3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four. 4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

IF someone had only the Matthew version of this story, and someone else had only the Mark version of this story, and neither knew anything about the other version, they would certainly disagree on what was TRUTH.

Now look at this one:

Matthew 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Mark 14:30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.


Again, if someone had only the book of Matthew and someone else the book of Mark, they would DISAGREE, each thinking the other had it wrong.

What am I saying? We have to put all four gospels TOGETHER to get the entire truth of the gospels; some time one part of the story, some tell another. For the end times, we know that Luke's version of the Olivet discourse is slightly different than Matthews, but NEITHER IS WRONG.

So here we are: WHY are we disagreeing?

Joel 2
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

WHERE do we see this in the New Testament? It is almost word for word in Rev. 6.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Now let's go back to Joel:

Joel 3
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

Where would we find something like this in Revelation? Does it not sound a lot like the sicke and winepress in Rev. 14?

Joel 3
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.


Where would this be in the book of Revelation? It would be in Chapter 19, when Jesus returns. Notice, Jesus is IN JERUSALEM here. A corresponding New Testament verse would be this:


Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


In BOTH places, this sign is given just before Jesus will return to earth.

Joel also had just spoken about gathering people in the valley


11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.

This is the gathering of the nations as seen in Rev. 19.

What is this showing us? In the timing of Rev. 19, there really will be signs in the sun and moon, (both darkened) but John did not see it so did not write it. Just because it is not written in Revelation does not mean it does not happen; Joel PROVES there will be signs in the sun and moon just before Jesus Returns. (Think about those examples in the gospels.)

The TRUTH is, these signs in the sun and moon will happen TWICE; first as a sign for the beginning of the DAY just exactly as Rev. chapter 6 shows us: the signs take place, and John writes, "the Day of the Lord has come." Yet in John's narrative, this is over 7 years before Jesus returns. Also in John's narrative, the trumpet judgments come IMMEDIATELY AFTER, proving that indeed, THE DAY has come and has begun with the destruction of the earth.

You wrote: "We can see in Matt 24 the tribulation is over before the Day of the Lord."
This is simply a false statement: Matthew 24 never mentions the Day of the Lord.

So you choose to rearrange Revelation to fit your theory that these signs happen only once. It was the same mistake that ended up destroying the ministries of two good men, Rosenthal and Van Kampan, the two men that were leaders in the prewrath camp.

I choose to believe that Revelation was written exactly in the order these events will take place. If one believes, as Joel shows us, that the signs in the sun and moon happen TWICE, there is NO NEED to rearrange Revelation.

So you say the signs of Matt 24 are not the signs of Rev 6. SO WHAT. THEY STILL OCCUR BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD. Therefore we know that the tribulation is over before the day of the Lord begins. Because of this TRUTH we can see that Rev 13 has to occur before the sixth seal of Rev 6.

What I see is your theory is NOT TRUTH. It is a totally mixed up mess. Yes, there WILL BE SIGNS that occur before the Day of the Lord. Joel 2 PROVES that. But these signs will happen AGAIN DURING the Day of the Lord, as signs for Jesus' return; Joel 3 PROVES that. And the two sets of signs will be DIFFERENT. Sorry, my fellow brother in the Lord, but the problem is on your end. Please, take off your preconceived glasses, and study Joel 2 and 3. If you cannot believe it, at least IMAGINE for a while that these signs happen TWICE. Read Revelation again still imagining. You will find everything fits as it is written with NO NEED for rearranging.

So you say the signs of Matt 24 are not the signs of Rev 6. SO WHAT. THEY STILL OCCUR BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD.

The sun will turn dark and the moon will appear blood red before the Day, this much is TRUTH. But it is also truth that BOTH the sun and moon will be darkened before Jesus Comes: TWO different signs for TWO different events, separated by at least 7 years. Do you imagine that God could only cause signs in the sun and moon ONCE? Is He that limited? The TRUTH is, God causes these signs TWICE; different signs for different events.


Try and follow... I followed Rosental and Van Kampen with no problem, and immediately saw their error. Yours is the same error. However, they went into far more depth so far more twisting of Revelation.

Perhaps you would enjoy reading:
Prewrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin Rosenthal
The Rapture Question Answered: Plain and Simple by Robert Van Kampen

They are both very well written books, just wrong in their doctrine.

LAMAD
 
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Jeez, tranquil(?), if you're going to raise a counter-argument, isn't it more polite to give someone a chance to reply before you accuse them of wanting to sweep it under the rug?

I imagine that you can read commentaries like I can, such as the ones at BibleHub (e.g. Albert Barnes, Jamieson-Fausset Brown, John Gill, etc.), and you will see a few different opinions of this verse. So, Hebrew scholars debate over the precise meaning of this verse! And yet, you want to insist that the angel is giving a prophecy concerning the end times; even including the bit about 2300 days. If you insist on that, they why not insist that the little horn descends from Greece? But then what do you do about the little horn in Dan 7 who descends from Rome?

All the scholars I've read see this Dan 8 passage as pertaining to Antiochus IV. So maybe it's wise to be not so quick to apply this prophecy (or at least not all of it) to the end times.

What is meant by "the time of the end" in verse 17? Perhaps a clarification comes in verse 19: "Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end."

So, perhaps the "time of the end" is speaking about the "end of the indignation". What is the indignation? Daniel speaks about it once more in Dan 11:36:

Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.​
You will find that the king mentioned in this verse is Antiochus IV.

On the other hand, perhaps the "time of the end" of Dan 8:17 really is related to the end times.

Several translators say something like "it pertains to the end". I think it does pertain to the end times in the sense the Antiochus IV is (IMO clearly) a type or foreshadowing of the antichrist. However, this use of foreshadowing doesn't mean that all details applicable to Antiochus IV, such as the 2300 days, must also apply to antichrist.

You say you want to derive a sense of timing from Revelation. I've just given it to you, but you want to type away a dissertation...!

Read this straight through
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.


Rev10
And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.


Rev 11
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
150 + 396.25 + 1260 + 3.5 = 1809.75 days. That's the 2 woes. Missing 1 woe. Add Dan 9's 490 days gets you 2300 days.

I am well aware of "Antiochus IV" being the "historical template" for the 2300 days. I am well aware that "Alexander the Great is the historical template for the notable horn that when it breaks forms 4 empires". I get it, I really, really do. But the simplest understanding of the verse (which I believe that you've mentioned espousing this rule of thumb)

Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

the simplest understanding of this verse means: there will be a new Antiochus, a new Alexander the Great.

I get really honked off over this because this is the best chapter for understanding prophecy in the near future.

The 2 horned ram attacks (Russia/ Iran attacks and becomes great.) Start of 2300 days, start of Trumpet 1-5 simultaneously.

This attack makes the EU into a dictatorship. (the notable horn of the goat/ Grecia).

The EU dictator ("new Alexander the Great") attacks Russia/ Iran and defeats them rather handily. (This EU "king" / the "new Alexander the Great" could very well be the "Great Monarch" of Catholic prophecy.)

When the ram is defeated, the EU dictator dies and his empire / the EU splits into 4 units. This marks the end of Trumpet 5's 5 months, and the start of the 6th Trumpet 396 days. At the end of the 396 days, the new Antiochus has 1260 days of rule. The Laodicean church mourns over choosing the antichrist and starts the Dan 9 70 literal weeks prophecy. That ends the 2300 days.

Or is that too simple for you?
 
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iamlamad

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You say you want to derive a sense of timing from Revelation. I've just given it to you, but you want to type away a dissertation...!

Read this straight through
150 + 396.25 + 1260 + 3.5 = 1809.75 days. That's the 2 woes. Missing 1 woe. Add Dan 9's 490 days gets you 2300 days.

I am well aware of "Antiochus IV" being the "historical template" for the 2300 days. I am well aware that "Alexander the Great is the historical template for the notable horn that when it breaks forms 4 empires". I get it, I really, really do. But the simplest understanding of the verse (which I believe that you've mentioned espousing this rule of thumb)

Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

the simplest understanding of this verse means: there will be a new Antiochus, a new Alexander the Great.

I get really honked off over this because this is the best chapter for understanding prophecy in the near future.

The 2 horned ram attacks (Russia/ Iran attacks and becomes great.) Start of 2300 days, start of Trumpet 1-5 simultaneously.

This attack makes the EU into a dictatorship. (the notable horn of the goat/ Grecia).

The EU dictator ("new Alexander the Great") attacks Russia/ Iran and defeats them rather handily. (This EU "king" / the "new Alexander the Great" could very well be the "Great Monarch" of Catholic prophecy.)

When the ram is defeated, the EU dictator dies and his empire / the EU splits into 4 units. This marks the end of Trumpet 5's 5 months, and the start of the 6th Trumpet 396 days. At the end of the 396 days, the new Antiochus has 1260 days of rule. The Laodicean church mourns over choosing the antichrist and starts the Dan 9 70 literal weeks prophecy. That ends the 2300 days.

Or is that too simple for you?

I think your imagination is running wild.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.


Most people understand that "the time of the end" is in reference to the END of the Greecian empire, which is EXACTLY what this angel says. You cannot pull one verse out of context. The context is the Ram of media and Persia and the Goat of Greece.

IN CONTEXT the Angel was talking about the terrible things that Antiochus would do, and the 2300 days to finally cleanse the temple. So the "end" spoken of would be the END of Antiochus.

Daniel said, "I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man."

WHAT vision? The vision of the Ram and the goat. So Daniel was seeking the meaning of THAT VISION. And that is exactly what the Angel gave him.

Sorry, your imagination did not help you here.

LAMAD
 
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You have fallen into the same trap that ruined both Rosenthal's and Van Kampan's lives and ministry when they left the pretrib camp and created "prewrath."

Nope...sorry.....I did not fall into their trap. I looked at the prewrath view, and I certainly do not believe what they believe. They think that the rapture happens in the middle of the tribulation. According to the Bible, the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

So here we are: WHY are we disagreeing?

Joel 2
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

WHERE do we see this in the New Testament? It is almost word for word in Rev. 6.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Now let's go back to Joel:

Joel 3
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

Where would we find something like this in Revelation? Does it not sound a lot like the sicke and winepress in Rev. 14?

Agreed. And yet we see that Christ has come in Rev 6. We also see that the great day of his wrath is come in Rev 6. Then we have a great multitude in Rev 7. We can see this harvest and the wrath beginning in Rev 14 as well.



Joel 3
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.


Where would this be in the book of Revelation? It would be in Chapter 19, when Jesus returns. Notice, Jesus is IN JERUSALEM here. A corresponding New Testament verse would be this:


Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


In BOTH places, this sign is given just before Jesus will return to earth.

Joel also had just spoken about gathering people in the valley


11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.

This is the gathering of the nations as seen in Rev. 19.

What is this showing us? In the timing of Rev. 19, there really will be signs in the sun and moon, (both darkened) but John did not see it so did not write it. Just because it is not written in Revelation does not mean it does not happen; Joel PROVES there will be signs in the sun and moon just before Jesus Returns. (Think about those examples in the gospels.)

No argument here.



The TRUTH is, these signs in the sun and moon will happen TWICE; first as a sign for the beginning of the DAY just exactly as Rev. chapter 6 shows us: the signs take place, and John writes, "the Day of the Lord has come."

No argument




Yet in John's narrative, this is over 7 years before Jesus returns. Also in John's narrative, the trumpet judgments come IMMEDIATELY AFTER, proving that indeed, THE DAY has come and has begun with the destruction of the earth.

Jesus returns for what........the harvest..........or setting up his kingdom?



You wrote: "We can see in Matt 24 the tribulation is over before the Day of the Lord."
This is simply a false statement: Matthew 24 never mentions the Day of the Lord.

So you choose to rearrange Revelation to fit your theory that these signs happen only once.

I have never said the signs happen once. I did say the stars fall from heaven in correlation with signs in the sun and moon and the shaking of the heavens. We see that in Matt 24 and Rev 6.

We can also see the wrath is come in Rev 6 and we see the grapes are tossed into the wrath of God in Rev 14.

It was the same mistake that ended up destroying the ministries of two good men, Rosenthal and Van Kampan, the two men that were leaders in the prewrath camp.

i do not believe in a pre wrath.....mid trib rapture. The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.



I choose to believe that Revelation was written exactly in the order these events will take place. If one believes, as Joel shows us, that the signs in the sun and moon happen TWICE, there is NO NEED to rearrange Revelation.

Strange, because I see two sets of signs in Joel and it does not affect my view at all.

Let me ask you this. In Matt after the signs happen... immediately after the tribulation....it talks about one will be taken and one will be left. What are they talking about. Is the good left on earth, or is the good taken?


So you say the signs of Matt 24 are not the signs of Rev 6. SO WHAT. THEY STILL OCCUR BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD. Therefore we know that the tribulation is over before the day of the Lord begins. Because of this TRUTH we can see that Rev 13 has to occur before the sixth seal of Rev 6.

What I see is your theory is NOT TRUTH. It is a totally mixed up mess. Yes, there WILL BE SIGNS that occur before the Day of the Lord. Joel 2 PROVES that. But these signs will happen AGAIN DURING the Day of the Lord, as signs for Jesus' return; Joel 3 PROVES that. And the two sets of signs will be DIFFERENT. Sorry, my fellow brother in the Lord, but the problem is on your end. Please, take off your preconceived glasses, and study Joel 2 and 3. If you cannot believe it, at least IMAGINE for a while that these signs happen TWICE. Read Revelation again still imagining. You will find everything fits as it is written with NO NEED for rearranging.

Signs happen twice in Joel changes nothing. I believe there are two cases of signs.






The sun will turn dark and the moon will appear blood red before the Day, this much is TRUTH. But it is also truth that BOTH the sun and moon will be darkened before Jesus Comes: TWO different signs for TWO different events, separated by at least 7 years. Do you imagine that God could only cause signs in the sun and moon ONCE? Is He that limited? The TRUTH is, God causes these signs TWICE; different signs for different events.

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Signs happening twice don't affect what I believe. I believe they happen before the day of the Lord and they happen before the second coming.


Try and follow... I followed Rosental and Van Kampen with no problem, and immediately saw their error. Yours is the same error. However, they went into far more depth so far more twisting of Revelation.

Perhaps you would enjoy reading:
Prewrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin Rosenthal
The Rapture Question Answered: Plain and Simple by Robert Van Kampen

They are both very well written books, just wrong in their doctrine.

LAMAD

I don't believe what these two men believe-d.
 
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iamlamad

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I will rinse and repeat. We can see the tribulation in Matt 24 as evidenced by the abomination of desolation. We also see sun moon and stars event of Matt 24 immediately after the tribulation. And we can tell by Joel 2

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

To conclude.......we know that the Day of the Lord begins during the 6th seal. We can see in Matt 24 the tribulation is over before the Day of the Lord. Therefore chapters like Rev 13 have to come before the end of the 6th seal....there is no other choice. Cut and dried.....no question about it.

So your timeline would be:

Tribulation...abomination...tribulation...sun and moon darkened...then...DAY OF THE LORD.

Further:
Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal, so the trib must be over by the 6th seal.
WRONG!
Anyone can put two verses together and make it LOOK or APPEAR as if one follows the other......

Matthew 27:5
And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37
... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

1 Thes 5
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

This SEEMS to tell a story, just as you do, but it is NOT THE TRUTH of scripture. There is true sequence in scripture: please try to follow:

Rapture (1 Thes 4)...>.. 6th seal....SIGNS for the coming Day of the Lord: Sun turns dark and moon into blood...>.. 7th seal: 70th week begins with trumpet judgments (Tribulation) ...>.. abomination (exact midpoint at 7th trumpet) ...>..Bowl judgments...>.. 70th week ENDS with 7th vial (Rev.16)...THEN......sun and moon darkened..(Joel 3:15, Mat. 24:29)...>.. nations gathered...>..Marriage and supper in heaven...>.. Jesus returns to battle of Armageddon.

This is scriptural, and it follows the exact chronology of Revelation as written.

Again, YOUR chronology:
Tribulation..>.abomination..>.tribulation..>.sun and moon darkened..>.then...

You insist the "Day of the Lord" follows.

This is what REALLY follows the signs of the sun and moon both darkening:

Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Mat. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Joel 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


Joel 3:
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.


Zeph. 1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God: for the day of the Lord is at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

Isaiah 13:4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
Zephaniah 3:8
Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the Lord, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

Zechariah 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces,
though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Mat. 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev. 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


This is the sequence from the bible. It has BOTH TIMES the signs in the sun and moon will be shown, in their correct sequence: first as the sign for the start of the day, then seven years plus later, both the sun and moon darkened as the sign for Christ's return to the battle of Armageddon. If you really paid attention, you can see that this requires NO REARRANGING of the book of Revelation, yet follows scripture exactly.

To conclude.......we know that the Day of the Lord begins during the 6th seal.

I agree.


We can see in Matt 24 the tribulation is over before the Day of the Lord.

Absolutely not. This is pure Eisegesis. Your preconceived glasses THINK the beginning of the Day of the Lord is there in Matthew 24, but the truth is, the Day of the Lord is not even mentioned in this chapter.

Therefore chapters like Rev 13 have to come before the end of the 6th seal....there is no other choice. Cut and dried.....no question about it.

This statement is absolute nonsense from the reasonings of man. It is quite like Judas hanging himself and others to go and do likewise.

HOW can someone come to this erroneous conclusion? It is very simple:

We also see sun moon and stars event of Matt 24 immediately after the tribulation. And we can tell by Joel 2

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.


The problem here is putting WRONG verses together. Both of these is true: The sun and moon and stars events DO come after the tribulation, as shown in Matthew 24 and Joel 3,and the sun will turn into darkness and the moon into blood before the Day of the Lord as shown in Rev. 6 and Joel 2.

The problem is, THESE ARE THE WRONG SIGNS at the WRONG time. I will change it slightly:

We also see sun moon and stars event of Matt 24 immediately after the tribulation. And we can tell by Joel 3

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem;

This verse sets the proper timing of "after the tribulation." This verse does not show any signs in the stars. SO WHAT? Every verse does not show every sign, but ALL verses must fit together in proper sequence.

Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joel is talking about the soon to come Day of the Lord in this chapter, but gives us one final thing that MUST COME before the Day of the Lord can begin:

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

So what Does Joel show us comes next?


Joel 3:2I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

Joel does not cover the entire 70th week of Daniel, but skips over what is covered in Rev. chapters 7 through 16, and jumps in right before Jesus comes as in Rev. 19: the gathering of the nations for the battle of Armageddon.

3 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

This is the winepress of Rev. 14, which is given as a prophecy pointing to the Battle of Armageddon.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Then Jesus returns:


THIS is the proper sign for this time, just before Jesus Returns: BOTH the sun and moon are darkened: NOTHING about the moon appearing red. if the sun is darkened, the moon is invisible.

16The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem;

Then, the Lord returns, as we see in Rev. 19.

Readers, you must watch carefully when people put verses together as if to tell a story. God NEVER meant for people to go out and hang themselves. Neither did God mean for people to rearrange the book of Revelation to fit their theories. The truth is, it is in perfect chronological order as written. The sun will turn dark and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day begins, as prophesied by Joel 2 and as shown at the 6th seal. Then the Day begins with the trumpet judgments and continues on through Revelation. The 70th week begins at the same time, with the 7th seal. The days of great tribulation will follow the abomination which follow the trumpet judgments. When God begins the vial judgments and plagues, the days of great tribulation will be at their very peak....as in Rev 15 & 16. But the vials will SHORTEN those days of GT. The 7th vial ENDS the 70th week, and then the marriage and supper will take place. AT this time, there will be SIGNS in the SKY: BOTH the SUN AND MOON WILL DARKEN, Stars will fall; heavens will be shaken. Finally, AFTER the marriage ceremony and supper, Jesus will return to earth for the Battle of Armageddon. It is plain and simple.

One more comment: Rosenthal and Van Kampen made the very same mistake, trying to put Joel 2 AFTER the tribulation. It is ERROR.

LAMAD
 
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Readers, you must watch carefully when people put verses together as if to tell a story. God NEVER meant for people to go out and hang themselves.Neither did God mean for people to rearrange the book of Revelation to fit their theories. The truth is, it is in perfect chronological order as written. The sun will turn dark and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day begins, as prophesied by Joel 2 and as shown at the 6th seal.

Exactly the point I am making.



Then the Day begins with the trumpet judgments and continues on through Revelation. The 70th week begins at the same time, with the 7th seal.

The 70 week is over.........before the day of the Lord begins. The wrath of God is not the time of Jacobs trouble......the tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble. You might want to find out what that great multitude is in Rev 7.



The days of great tribulation will follow the abomination which follow the trumpet judgments.

Sorry, the trumpet judgments are the wrath of God and are after the harvest of the great multitude.


When God begins the vial judgments and plagues, the days of great tribulation will be at their very peak....as in Rev 15 & 16. But the vials will SHORTEN those days of GT. The 7th vial ENDS the 70th week, and then the marriage and supper will take place. AT this time, there will be SIGNS in the SKY: BOTH the SUN AND MOON WILL DARKEN, Stars will fall; heavens will be shaken. Finally, AFTER the marriage ceremony and supper, Jesus will return to earth for the Battle of Armageddon. It is plain and simple.

Yep it's plain......tribulation......harvest........wrath of God.


One more comment: Rosenthal and Van Kampen made the very same mistake, trying to put Joel 2 AFTER the tribulation. It is ERROR.

Rinse and repeat.......I do not agree with these two men. They believe that there is a pre wrath rapture in the mid point of tribulation. I believe that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. Neither the church nor Israel is appointed to wrath.

Let's cut to the chase....you have spent so much time arguing about things I agree with and then acting like you have proven something. You have also spent time comparing my beliefs with two men that I do not agree with.

Let's work on these questions. In Matt 24 we see where the tribulation is over. We also see Christ coming.

1st question...........Is this coming of Christ the same as Rev 19 when Christ returns to set up his kingdom.

2nd question..........We see 2 in the field etc etc.....one taken, one left. Is the one that is taken the good.......or is the one that is taken evil.
 
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iamlamad

Lamad
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Rinse and repeat.......I do not agree with these two men. They believe that there is a pre wrath rapture in the mid point of tribulation. I believe that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. Neither the church nor Israel is appointed to wrath.

No, you have missed what prewrath is all about. Just like you, they want to put The moon into blood AFTER the days of tribulation, just as you do. They believed "the tribulation" was somewhere in the seals BEFORE the 6th seal. They agreed that His wrath begins just where John said it, at the 6th seal. So in their minds, the rapture had to come before the Wrath....the last sentence of Rev. 6. They saw the rapture happening as the first event of the 6th seal as I do and as Paul and John wrote. But they thought the 70th week (trib) began with the seals. That was another of their errors. The truth is, the 70th week (AND the day of the Lord) begin at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment.

Lamad
 
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