Discussion Defending self and others.

[Alithis]

I think the point of the questions the previous 2 people asked you was that there are certain things we do for ourselves in order to either protect ourselves from harm (wearing a seatbelt) or to provide for ourselves (working a job). I believe both of these things are true as well. There are many other things we do, such as put on safety glasses when using power tools, or use anti-virus software to safeguard our computers. So why do you see a difference when it comes to actively protecting yourself and loved ones when someone physically attacks you?

go back and re read the thread ..iv never been against defending your loved ones i stated what i would do in the op scenario
what probably any one would do . but some just wish to justify doing things in their own strength because they can't handle yet dealing with the true reasons from an honest truthful stance before God . the truth is , God is able to look after us ..our lives ARE in his hands and if that means we die then we can trust him in that also .

 

[Aldebaran]

go back and re read the thread ..iv never been against defending your loved ones i stated what i would do in the op scenario
what probably any one would do . but some just wish to justify doing things in their own strength because they can't handle yet dealing with the true reasons from an honest truthful stance before God . the truth is , God is able to look after us ..our lives ARE in his hands and if that means we die then we can trust him in that also .

Yes, I went back and read what you wrote. You don't seem to be in favor of defending yourself or loved ones either. You keep mentioning things like running into the room and calling on the name of Jesus or putting yourself in between your loved ones and their killer.

Let me tell you one of my concerns here. There are people who are either extremists, or cultists or other groups that are best avoided. There was one such person on this site I conversed with months ago who said things that are similar to what you're saying, only on different issues. The issue this person was focused on was money. He didn't believe we should have anything to do with it because of what Jesus said about it being the "root of all evil", even though I pointed out to him that Christ's words were actually, "the root of all sorts of evil". This member thought that going to a job and working for money was evil because we should be working for God and love. We can't serve 2 masters, Jesus said. So this member thought that spending 8 hours at a job was serving the master of money, the root of all evil.

Now, doesn't this sound rather extreme to you? Sure, it hinges on what Jesus said, but it takes it too far. After more conversation, I discovered that this member was involved with a cult group that taught people to give up their money and worldly possessions, among other things that they said Jesus taught.

 

[Alithis]

Yes, I went back and read what you wrote. You don't seem to be in favor of defending yourself or loved ones either. You keep mentioning things like running into the room and calling on the name of Jesus or putting yourself in between your loved ones and their killer.

Let me tell you one of my concerns here. There are people who are either extremists, or cultists or other groups that are best avoided. There was one such person on this site I conversed with months ago who said things that are similar to what you're saying, only on different issues. The issue this person was focused on was money. He didn't believe we should have anything to do with it because of what Jesus said about it being the "root of all evil", even though I pointed out to him that Christ's words were actually, "the root of all sorts of evil". This member thought that going to a job and working for money was evil because we should be working for God and love. We can't serve 2 masters, Jesus said. So this member thought that spending 8 hours at a job was serving the master of money, the root of all evil.

Now, doesn't this sound rather extreme to you? Sure, it hinges on what Jesus said, but it takes it too far. After more conversation, I discovered that this member was involved with a cult group that taught people to give up their money and worldly possessions, among other things that they said Jesus taught.

Yes, I went back and read what you wrote. You don't seem to be in favor of defending yourself or loved ones either. You keep mentioning things like running into the room and calling on the name of Jesus or putting yourself in between your loved ones and their killer.

i must laugh .. firstly ,what error is there in calling on the name of the lord ? we are believers in the lord with whom nothing is impossible ./ 2nd -which part of getting between an attacker and your loved ones is not defending them ?

the rest is a whole other topic and nothing to do with the Op ..and i know of candlelight and co whom you speak of having debated heavily in opposition to them Also . start another thread .i have advocated relationship with the lord , trust in the lord , his grace as we "learn & grow in trust and faith.walking IN the holy Spirit to obey his voice and leading in us and trusting not in the flesh or its fickle strength. it is sadly amazing how many folks say they believe in God .. but when it comes to learning to trust him they wont even act like he is able to do anything at all..it is a contradiction in faith ... but we do learn and grow as we are obedient to him.

its all very well for some young strong folks to say ouh i would do this and that in fighting them off and others to say just shoot the offender .(even though shooting another human is not so easy as in the movies and if one born again of the Holy Spirit finds it easy to slay another man they have some serious growing in the love of God to yet to do) but these options are not open if the guy is frail and 70 yrs old or hard of sight or a single mother of small stature ..etc
It is the pride of the flesh and ones trust in it which causes a person to make trust in the flesh their first port of call .... But for some reason advocating "trusting in God with whom nothing is impossible is resisted even by those who declare to be beliovers in him . that in itself is a troubling state of affairs .

 

[Aldebaran]

i must laugh .. firstly ,what error is there in calling on the name of the lord ? we are believers in the lord with whom nothing is impossible ./ 2nd -which part of getting between an attacker and your loved ones is not defending them ?

the rest is a whole other topic and nothing to do with the Op ..and i know of candlelight and co whom you speak of having debated heavily in opposition to them Also . start another thread .i have advocated relationship with the lord , trust in the lord , his grace as we "learn & grow in trust and faith.walking IN the holy Spirit to obey his voice and leading in us and trusting not in the flesh or its fickle strength. it is sadly amazing how many folks say they believe in God .. but when it comes to learning to trust him they wont even act like he is able to do anything at all..it is a contradiction in faith ... but we do learn and grow as we are obedient to him.

its all very well for some young strong folks to say ouh i would do this and that in fighting them off and others to say just shoot the offender .(even though shooting another human is not so easy as in the movies and if one born again of the Holy Spirit finds it easy to slay another man they have some serious growing in the love of God to yet to do) but these options are not open if the guy is frail and 70 yrs old or hard of sight or a single mother of small stature ..etc
It is the pride of the flesh and ones trust in it which causes a person to make trust in the flesh their first port of call .... But for some reason advocating "trusting in God with whom nothing is impossible is resisted even by those who declare to be beliovers in him . that in itself is a troubling state of affairs .

I'm glad you must laugh. I don't know what I said that was so funny. I simply mentioned what you said, and you respond by asking me what the error of it is.
If praying is how you choose to defend yourself and your family, then so be it. But to fully understand the extent you take this approach, people will ask you if you use prayer alone to achieve other things that Jesus said we should rely on God for. For example, He told us to look at the lilies of the field, and observe how they don't toil or labor, and yet God takes care of them. Same for the birds. So would you take these verses to mean that we're relying on the flesh if we get up in the morning and get dressed and commute to work each day and spend 8 hours doing something we may not enjoy for the sake of getting money to pay our bills?

BTW, I don't remember the name of the member who I had those conversations with. It wasn't Candlelight. The member I refer to is one I haven't seen in a long while. May now be inactive, or changed names. But the reasoning I was hearing from them sounds similar to what you're saying here. Also, this member would not answer my questions directly either. He flat out refused, despite my numerous requests, to tell me how he lived without money.

 

[Alithis]

I'm glad you must laugh. I don't know what I said that was so funny. I simply mentioned what you said, and you respond by asking me what the error of it is.
If praying is how you choose to defend yourself and your family, then so be it. But to fully understand the extent you take this approach, people will ask you if you use prayer alone to achieve other things that Jesus said we should rely on God for. For example, He told us to look at the lilies of the field, and observe how they don't toil or labor, and yet God takes care of them. Same for the birds. So would you take these verses to mean that we're relying on the flesh if we get up in the morning and get dressed and commute to work each day and spend 8 hours doing something we may not enjoy for the sake of getting money to pay our bills?

BTW, I don't remember the name of the member who I had those conversations with. It wasn't Candlelight. The member I refer to is one I haven't seen in a long while. May now be inactive, or changed names. But the reasoning I was hearing from them sounds similar to what you're saying here. Also, this member would not answer my questions directly either. He flat out refused, despite my numerous requests, to tell me how he lived without money.

this is a misrepresentation "If praying is how you choose to defend yourself and your family, then so be it." i said i would pray AND run in and get between my loved ones and the attacker .
but if what i have said is extreme ( and i have stated often enough that i present argument from an extreme view purposely to make an extreme point)
then what your saying is extreme to the opposite .. your basically trying to admonish me for declaring that we should trust fully and wholly in the lord .
which im hardly going to back down from because we should .he said so.

 

[Aldebaran]

this is a misrepresentation "If praying is how you choose to defend yourself and your family, then so be it." i said i would pray AND run in and get between my loved ones and the attacker .
but if what i have said is extreme ( and i have stated often enough that i present argument from an extreme view purposely to make an extreme point)
then what your saying is extreme to the opposite .. your basically trying to admonish me for declaring that we should trust fully and wholly in the lord .
which im hardly going to back down from because we should .he said so.

Where do you get that idea from me saying, "then so be it"?
Also, why do continue not answering the questions I ask you? Again: But to fully understand the extent you take this approach, people will ask you if you use prayer alone to achieve other things that Jesus said we should rely on God for. For example, He told us to look at the lilies of the field, and observe how they don't toil or labor, and yet God takes care of them. Same for the birds. So would you take these verses to mean that we're relying on the flesh if we get up in the morning and get dressed and commute to work each day and spend 8 hours doing something we may not enjoy for the sake of getting money to pay our bills?

 

[Alithis]

Where do you get that idea from me saying, "then so be it"?
Also, why do continue not answering the questions I ask you? Again: But to fully understand the extent you take this approach, people will ask you if you use prayer alone to achieve other things that Jesus said we should rely on God for. For example, He told us to look at the lilies of the field, and observe how they don't toil or labor, and yet God takes care of them. Same for the birds. So would you take these verses to mean that we're relying on the flesh if we get up in the morning and get dressed and commute to work each day and spend 8 hours doing something we may not enjoy for the sake of getting money to pay our bills?

yes that is what the lord jesus meant - but we don't walk at that level of trust and faith yet .. but he desires that we grow into that . and some already do .
but i don't yet (do you)..my faith is very very little and i am weak in trusting the lord and more concerned for my own comforts and keep making the error of trusting in my own abilities .. and that is an error .. but the lord is gracious and forgiving and he loves me and he is always leading me onward into more of the things he has for me as i learn to let go of trusting in myself and "follow him"

i disagree with folks who say we should drop everything and suddenly become these super christians .. (a few are called to that and given grace and power for it ) but for most of us the lord is LEADING us ,growing us ,to such a place of trust and faith .. but we will only attain it if we listen and follow and obey what he is asking of us at any given time in our life . the lord only requires that we obey him in the ONE thing that he is speaking to us about in our present life and after we obey him in that .. he will lead us onto the next thing .

but seriously if you wish to so diversify the topic .. start another thread on it .

 

[Aldebaran]

yes that is what the lord jesus meant - but we don't walk at that level of trust and faith yet .. but he desires that we grow into that . and some already do .
but i don't yet (do you)..my faith is very very little and i am weak in trusting the lord and more concerned for my own comforts and keep making the error of trusting in my own abilities .. and that is an error .. but the lord is gracious and forgiving and he loves me and he is always leading me onward into more of the things he has for me as i learn to let go of trusting in myself and "follow him"

i disagree with folks who say we should drop everything and suddenly become these super christians .. (a few are called to that and given grace and power for it ) but for most of us the lord is LEADING us ,growing us ,to such a place of trust and faith .. but we will only attain it if we listen and follow and obey what he is asking of us at any given time in our life . the lord only requires that we obey him in the ONE thing that he is speaking to us about in our present life and after we obey him in that .. he will lead us onto the next thing .

but seriously if you wish to so diversify the topic .. start another thread on it .

I appreciate your answering my question. But I wouldn't say your faith is weak because you work for a living. It sounds like your faith is actually quite strong at this point.

 

[Alithis]

I appreciate your answering my question. But I wouldn't say your faith is weak because you work for a living. It sounds like your faith is actually quite strong at this point.

nope its weak .. god is able to provide for the birds of the air and clothe the lilies of the valley and he is eve more able and willing to do so for me .. yet i have not yet learned to trust him to do so.. but i am learning -rather slowly .
one way he is teaching us is to give more and more - he taught me to cast off tithing for it limits a man to a portion. but he taught me that ALL my life is his(not 10% only) and all i have is his and i am but a steward of it .. thus al i have is his to use .. but i hold onto much of what i have because i think "wrongly" that he is unable to provide . i think he is able to provide and i believe that in my head , but i do not yet life my life as though he is able to provide all .but i do increasingly live life as though he is able to increasingly provide and i hope one day to so honor him by giving ALL as he gave for me .

 

[Aldebaran]

nope its weak .. god is able to provide for the birds of the air and clothe the lilies of the valley and he is eve more able and willing to do so for me .. yet i have not yet learned to trust him to do so.. but i am learning -rather slowly .
one way he is teaching us is to give more and more - he taught me to cast off tithing for it limits a man to a portion. but he taught me that ALL my life is his(not 10% only) and all i have is his and i am but a steward of it .. thus al i have is his to use .. but i hold onto much of what i have because i think "wrongly" that he is unable to provide . i think he is able to provide and i believe that in my head , but i do not yet life my life as though he is able to provide all .but i do increasingly live life as though he is able to increasingly provide and i hope one day to so honor him by giving ALL as he gave for me .

Well, on a practical level, which means actually doing it, it doesn't sound like it would be that hard to do, but I don't comprehend the mechanics of it. I mean, to rely on the Lord entirely for your needs, I guess all you'd have to do is quit your job and pray that the Lord sustains you. When I asked the other member I was referring to about this and how they were able to get their food and shelter and what an example of their daily life is like, he wouldn't tell me. But I'd really like to know just how such a situation plays out in real life.

 

[Alithis]

Well, on a practical level, which means actually doing it, it doesn't sound like it would be that hard to do, but I don't comprehend the mechanics of it. I mean, to rely on the Lord entirely for your needs, I guess all you'd have to do is quit your job and pray that the Lord sustains you. When I asked the other member I was referring to about this and how they were able to get their food and shelter and what an example of their daily life is like, he wouldn't tell me. But I'd really like to know just how such a situation plays out in real life.

i dont think it works out by quitting our job because we think it's a grand Ideal ..I think that would be walking in the flesh. it comes about by listening to and obeying the Holy Spirit as he leads us to do so .
- as we obey what he tells us to do he gives us what we need to do it ( ref: George Müller .. he never asked man in regard to finance or needs to run an orphanage .he only asked God in prayer in secret .. and God always provided -inspiring story of faith for us all to be both goaded and encouraged by .)
the question to search our own hearts about is .. "am i willing to begin doing so am i willing to learn am i willing to be honest before the lord about these things in my heart . etc

 

[hislegacy]

So are you sayng God might lead us to a job for providing.

 

[Alithis]

So are you sayng God might lead us to a job for providing.

No.. im replying within tbe confines of someones question to me. Lets not miscontrue the words of others .

 

[hislegacy]

Direct question then. Yes or no.

Would God lead us to a job to supply our needs?

 

[Frogster]

Direct question then. Yes or no.

Would God lead us to a job to supply our needs?

Good question, makes sense.

 

[Svt4Him]

are you preaching you conviction ? or the word ?
the word says we are to respect the law of the land a ..im my country it is a law that we wear a seat belt . so i wear a seatbelt .
sadly many people die in car accidents while wearing a seat belt .. many more do not .its not guaranteed .. it does not change that our lives were purchased with a price and that our life is in Gods hands .
so .. not sure what your point was there .

Not preaching anything, asking a question. You do know the difference don't you? Again, that was a question, more rhetorical in nature though.

Totally agree, we do what we need to to keep safe, then trust God with the rest. Again, not preaching, more reiterating what you've said.

Know what you get when you cross a rhetorical question with a joke?

 

[Svt4Him]

Direct question then. Yes or no.

Would God lead us to a job to supply our needs?

Direct question then, yes or no.

What did you have for breakfast?

Failure to answer the question with a yes or no is avoiding, thereby proving my point. So, what did you have for breakfast?

Do you know the fallacy in this post, as well as my post? Yes or no?

 

[Alithis]

This thread is about to around the mulberry bush now ..i'll leave you all to it . and in the new site terminology .. "unwatch it "

hows that ?..unwatch .. ? what sort of terminology is that lol

 

[Frogster]

Direct question then, yes or no.

What did you have for breakfast?

Failure to answer the question with a yes or no is avoiding, thereby proving my point. So, what did you have for breakfast?

Do you know the fallacy in this post, as well as my post? Yes or no?

But the point was, if God led one to a job to supply a need, obviously using the natural, then God could lead one to a gun, obviously using the natural for a need.

 

[hislegacy]

Direct question then, yes or no.

What did you have for breakfast?

Failure to answer the question with a yes or no is avoiding, thereby proving my point. So, what did you have for breakfast?

Do you know the fallacy in this post, as well as my post? Yes or no?

A simple understanding of the English language would show your question cannot be answered with yes or no. While. Mine can.

Silly man