Cliffe Knechtle on the 6 days in Genesis

[AV1611VET]

'Ignorant, Bronze Age, desert dwelling sheep farmers' is popular. Every Christian has no doubt heard that one expressed by anti-theists who has discussed or debated with them.

Here we get:

Ignorant, Bronze Age, goat-herding, desert nomads.

 

[AV1611VET]

the bible does claim getting goats to mate in front of white branches will give their offspring white stripes...

Either that, or Jacob said GOD DID IT.

Genesis 31:9 Thus God hath taken away the cattle of your father, and given them to me.

 

[AV1611VET]

The bible says not to suffer a witch to live. And if scientists are witches....

Ya ... well ... um ... no.

Wrong dispensation.

 

[Black Dog]

Ya ... well ... um ... no.

Wrong dispensation.

Ah....OK.

 

[Black Dog]

Here we get:

Ignorant, Bronze Age, goat-herding, desert nomads.

That looks like an accurate description. Which of those were they not? They were ignorant compared to most of today's civilizations, they lived in the Bronze Age, they were goat herders and desert nomads.

 

[HitchSlap]

'Ignorant, Bronze Age, desert dwelling sheep farmers' is popular. Every Christian has no doubt heard that one expressed by anti-theists who has discussed or debated with them.

So, they weren't Bronze Age desert dwelling sheep herders?

 

[HitchSlap]

Yes, as a point of contention.

Oh, I'm sorry buddy. You going to be ok?

 

[Frenzy]

Harassment. Words can hurt people. They drove a classmate of mine into a depression, that he then ended with a bullet in his skull.

Perhaps you're right we should leave them to find things out for themselves after all they are only hurting themselves from where I'm standing, in the UK, it's your kids schools they're trying to damage.

 

[Astrophile]

The Sumerians had what really was the beginning of astrology & astronomy. They had 12 planets and today astrology talks about the influence the planets have upon us.

You start by talking about Sumerian astronomy and astrology, and about the twelve planets, and then you go wandering off to talk about the language of the Sumerians, their peaceful, utopian society, their invention of the wheel, Abraham, etc.

I'm not interested in any of this; I want to know how you learnt about Sumerian astronomy and the twelve planets.

You ought to think about the practical implications of your ideas about Sumerian astronomy. For example, what instruments did the Sumerians have that enabled them to discover Pluto, which needs a large telescope to be seen at all? How many asteroids did the Sumerians know about; there are more than a hundred that are brighter than Pluto.

How did the Sumerians work out the orbits of the planets and infer that the asteroids were fragments of a planet that exploded? Did they have trigonometry, differential calculus and a theory of gravitation? Did they know about Kepler's three laws of planetary motion?

To return to the main point, how do you think the Sumerians could have discovered Pluto? Tombaugh found it in the course of a long search for a planet that was supposed to be perturbing the orbit of Uranus, but these perturbations were illusory; they were the results of an over-estimate of the mass of Neptune. Do you think that the Sumerians found Pluto by the same method, searching for the source of illusory gravitational perturbations?

Alternatively, do you think that the Sumerians discovered Pluto by chance, in the course of other observations? But Pluto is too faint for somebody to find it by sweeping the sky with a small telescope; in the absence of a specific search like Tombaugh's it could only have been discovered by chance in the course of a deep survey of the whole sky, using permanent observatories with large telescopes. Do you think that the Sumerians, 4000 or 5000 years ago, had that sort of astronomical programme or the equipment to carry it out?

 

[joshua 1 9]

You start by talking about Sumerian astronomy and astrology, and about the twelve planets, and then you go wandering off to talk about the language of the Sumerians, their peaceful, utopian society, their invention of the wheel, Abraham, etc.

I'm not interested in any of this; I want to know how you learnt about Sumerian astronomy and the twelve planets.

You ought to think about the practical implications of your ideas about Sumerian astronomy. For example, what instruments did the Sumerians have that enabled them to discover Pluto, which needs a large telescope to be seen at all? How many asteroids did the Sumerians know about; there are more than a hundred that are brighter than Pluto.

How did the Sumerians work out the orbits of the planets and infer that the asteroids were fragments of a planet that exploded? Did they have trigonometry, differential calculus and a theory of gravitation? Did they know about Kepler's three laws of planetary motion?

To return to the main point, how do you think the Sumerians could have discovered Pluto? Tombaugh found it in the course of a long search for a planet that was supposed to be perturbing the orbit of Uranus, but these perturbations were illusory; they were the results of an over-estimate of the mass of Neptune. Do you think that the Sumerians found Pluto by the same method, searching for the source of illusory gravitational perturbations?

Alternatively, do you think that the Sumerians discovered Pluto by chance, in the course of other observations? But Pluto is too faint for somebody to find it by sweeping the sky with a small telescope; in the absence of a specific search like Tombaugh's it could only have been discovered by chance in the course of a deep survey of the whole sky, using permanent observatories with large telescopes. Do you think that the Sumerians, 4000 or 5000 years ago, had that sort of astronomical programme or the equipment to carry it out?

You know the answer is Zecharia Sitchoin. Otherwise we look to Nabu-rimanni.

Nabu-rimanni http://encyclopedia.kids.net.au/page/na/Nabu-rimanni

 

[joshua 1 9]

How did the Sumerians work out the orbits of the planets and infer that the asteroids were fragments of a planet that exploded? Did they have trigonometry, differential calculus and a theory of gravitation? Did they know about Kepler's three laws of planetary motion?

Sumerian astronomers studied angle measure, using a division of circles into 360 degrees.[4] They, and later the Babylonians, studied the ratios of the sides of similar triangles and discovered some properties of these ratios but did not turn that into a systematic method for finding sides and angles of triangles. The ancient Nubians used a similar method. Wiki

The point is that all of these things you are talking about had their beginning with the Sumerians. Even if other people and other civilization developed them further. The Chaldeans, Babylonians, Egyptians and so on. All of this was around long before the Greeks came along.

The origins of Western astronomy can be found in Mesopotamia, the "land between the rivers" Tigris and Euphrates, where the ancient kingdoms of Sumer, Assyria, and Babylonia were located. A form of writing known as cuneiform emerged among the Sumerians around 3500–3000 BC. Our knowledge of Sumerian astronomy is indirect, via the earliest Babylonian star catalogues dating from about 1200 BC. The fact that many star names appear in Sumerian suggests a continuity reaching into the Early Bronze Age. Astral theology, which gave planetary gods an important role in Mesopotamian mythology and religion, began with the Sumerians. They also used a sexagesimal (base 60) place-value number system, which simplified the task of recording very large and very small numbers. The modern practice of dividing a circle into 360 degrees, of 60 minutes each, began with the Sumerians. For more information, see the articles on Babylonian numerals and mathematics. Wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_astronomy

 

[Astrophile]

You know the answer is Zecharia Sitchin.

You ought to look at the website 'Sitchin is Wrong.com' by Dr. Michael Heiser. In particular, you should read the section http://sitchiniswrong.com/VA243seal.pdf, where Heiser shows in great detail that the 'star+dots' image on the seal does not represent the Sun surrounded by planets. It may represent a deity that has some connection with fertility. Heiser also points out that there is not a single Sumerian or Mesopotamian text 'that tells us [that] the Sumerians ... knew [that] there were more than five planets'. These must have been Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. So much for your twelve planets and Sumerian knowledge of Pluto.

Otherwise we look to Nabu-rimanni.

Nabu-rimanni http://encyclopedia.kids.net.au/page/na/Nabu-rimanni

This is interesting, but it describes Babylonian astronomy of the 1st millennium BC, and it doesn't say anything about there being twelve planets.

They teach ancient history in the High School text books today. But there is so much history to learn and today they do not go into as much depth as they did back in the High School I went to 50 years ago.

Did you really learn about Sumerian astronomy at High School during the 1960s? You must have gone to a very remarkable school, and I congratulate you on your good fortune.

 

[Astrophile]

Sumerian astronomers studied angle measure, using a division of circles into 360 degrees.[4] They, and later the Babylonians, studied the ratios of the sides of similar triangles and discovered some properties of these ratios but did not turn that into a systematic method for finding sides and angles of triangles. The ancient Nubians used a similar method. Wiki

The point is that all of these things you are talking about had their beginning with the Sumerians. Even if other people and other civilization developed them further. The Chaldeans, Babylonians, Egyptians and so on. All of this was around long before the Greeks came along.

The origins of Western astronomy can be found in Mesopotamia, the "land between the rivers" Tigris and Euphrates, where the ancient kingdoms of Sumer, Assyria, and Babylonia were located. A form of writing known as cuneiform emerged among the Sumerians around 3500–3000 BC. Our knowledge of Sumerian astronomy is indirect, via the earliest Babylonian star catalogues dating from about 1200 BC. The fact that many star names appear in Sumerian suggests a continuity reaching into the Early Bronze Age. Astral theology, which gave planetary gods an important role in Mesopotamian mythology and religion, began with the Sumerians. They also used a sexagesimal (base 60) place-value number system, which simplified the task of recording very large and very small numbers. The modern practice of dividing a circle into 360 degrees, of 60 minutes each, began with the Sumerians. For more information, see the articles on Babylonian numerals and mathematics. Wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_astronomy

All this is interesting, and I ought to study it in more detail. However, this does not say that the Sumerians knew of the existence of twelve planets, including Pluto, or that they thought that the asteroids were fragments of a planet that had exploded.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Did you really learn about Sumerian astronomy at High School during the 1960s? You must have gone to a very remarkable school, and I congratulate you on your good fortune.

My history teacher escaped Germany before the Holocaust. He lived to be 100. I study ancient history now more then I did back then. We spent most of our time in High School to study Egypt, now I study more the middle east before Egypt.

 

[joshua 1 9]

All this is interesting, and I ought to study it in more detail. However, this does not say that the Sumerians knew of the existence of twelve planets, including Pluto, or that they thought that the asteroids were fragments of a planet that had exploded.

We do not know that much about the Sumerians. The pretense is that there are many hundreds of thousands of clay tablets that no one knows how to decipher except for Sitchin. A lot of the ancient history goes back to Breasted and Woolley. I do not know if anyone has really added to their work other then just to preserve what they accomplished. I do not know about Sitchin because I have not had time to look into it. Of course esoteric knowledge is always going to be questionable.

 

[joshua 1 9]

All this is interesting, and I ought to study it in more detail. However, this does not say that the Sumerians knew of the existence of twelve planets, including Pluto, or that they thought that the asteroids were fragments of a planet that had exploded.

So what about the tree of life in the Kabbalist. Some people believe that includes Pluto. The idea that the solar system needs to be balanced and that plants can become moons and moons can become planets. These systems are clearly heliocentric.

 

[Aman777]

From the series, Give me an answer, which is really great, I found this interesting discussion

Interesting view, that the 6 days of Genesis is a poetic description, and that Genesis is not a literal account. Due to some parallelisms in the 6 days.

I dont think that I would agree, that the 6 days are not literal days. But it is interesting anyway.

Creationism does take as a starting point, that there were 6 literal days at the beginning of the universe. As far as I understand creationism, and which is also my understanding of the creation account.

best regards, Peter

The six Days of Creation are better understood as Ages, since each of them is Billions of years long, in man's time. This is clear when you realize that the prophecy at the end of the present 6th Day/Age is NOT yet fulfilled, and will NOT be until AFTER Jesus returns to this Planet at Armageddon. Gen 1:28-31. Amen?

 

[AV1611VET]

The six Days of Creation are better understood as Ages, since each of them is Billions of years long, in man's time.

So man has been around for billions of years?

This is clear when you realize that the prophecy at the end of the present 6th Day/Age is NOT yet fulfilled, and will NOT be until AFTER Jesus returns to this Planet at Armageddon. Gen 1:28-31. Amen?

What prophecy?

Just because Genesis doesn't say, "And the evening and the morning were the seventh day," doesn't mean we're still in the seventh day.

 

[Aman777]

Aman777 said: ↑
The six Days of Creation are better understood as Ages, since each of them is Billions of years long, in man's time.

AV:>>So man has been around for billions of years?

Yes, since Adam was made before the beginning or Big Bang of our Cosmos, Gen 2:4-7 which was some 13.8 Billion years ago, in man's time. God's time has but 6 Days (Heb-Yowm-periods of labor) and 1 Festival Day, the Great Sabbath, the 7th Day or Age which has NO evening and NO end because the 7th Day is Eternity. It is when God finally rests (Heb-Ceases) from ***ALL*** of His work of creation. Gen 2:2-3 Today is the end of the 6th Day of God's labor because He is currently filling the 3rd Heaven with it's host, which includes the last Christian to be saved. Gen 1:27 When this Salvation Day is finished (Heb-brought to perfection) our world will be burned. ll Peter 3:10

Aman said:
This is clear when you realize that the prophecy at the end of the present 6th Day/Age is NOT yet fulfilled, and will NOT be until AFTER Jesus returns to this Planet at Armageddon. Gen 1:28-31. Amen?

AV:>>What prophecy?

The prophecy of Gen 1:28-31 since there has never been a time when men had dominion or rule over mosquitoes, viruses and Angels, because it's a future happening which won't take place until Jesus returns. Then Jesus will change ALL living creatures into vegetarians as Gen 1:30 states. Isaiah tell us about this event here:

Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall He judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and He shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips shall He slay the wicked. Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of His loins, and faithfulness the girdle of His reins. Isa 11:6 ¶ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Do you see what I mean? We live today at the end of the present 6th Day of labor in the creation of the perfect Heaven. We will NOT enter the 7th Day until AFTER the prophecy of Gen 1:28-31 is fulfilled as Isaiah tells us. Humans won't have dominion or rule over EVERY other living creature until AFTER Jesus returns to this Planet and changes them into veggie eaters.

AV:>>Just because Genesis doesn't say, "And the evening and the morning were the seventh day," doesn't mean we're still in the seventh day.

The 7th Day is future and it is Eternity and it has NO ending. We will live with Jesus forever, doing good works and living in holiness/righteousness for we shall remember to keep the 7th Day Holy. Amen?

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

 

[SkyWriting]

Interesting view, that the 6 days of Genesis is a poetic description, and that Genesis is not a literal account. Due to some parallelisms in the 6 days.

I dont think that I would agree, that the 6 days are not literal days. But it is interesting anyway.

Creationism does take as a starting point, that there were 6 literal days at the beginning of the universe. As far as I understand creationism, and which is also my understanding of the creation account.

best regards, Peter

I feel that Adam was originally immortal.
In that case "normal time" did not exist
until Adam sinned.

If that was the case, then the "six days"
took place before "normal time" began.