Discussion Can you lose your salvation ? -and all the variance of topic is leads to

[Alithis]

There is no question that this side of heaven, we will always be being changed into His likeness in a greater and greater way. But you see, I am not talking about sinless perfection, a pride filled delusion for any who think it attainable. BUT, with that said, what IS our heritage is to be delivered from that old nature that says no to God despite His clear will being heard, that chooses to sin, counting on the forgiveness and patience of the Father. It is the inheritance of every child of God, especially the weakest, to be set free from their Romans 7 nature... in this life... right now.

Impossible, you say? The truth is, I am firmly convinced by the Lord and His words back it up, that every single true Saint, called to heaven, is already in possession of that new victorious nature as we speak. The new man that does hold up the shield of faith. The new nature that does take the way of escape when temptation comes. The new nature that does overcome the world, the flesh and the devil.

The old nature, the rebellious one, the pride filled self loving one, the one that sins and justifies it through grace, is dead. As in really dead. Not dying. Dead as a door nail. Right now, for every single Christian who reads these words, their fleshly nature is dead. They owe it and the sins it thrives on nothing. Nada. Nyet.

But if this be the case, why are so few enjoying the benefits of this amazing truth? Why, you ask? We do not yet believe it as our truth. We have to go past hope of what will be (future) and take it by force (present). God asks our faith to be NOW faith, believing that as we ask, we HAVE it. You see, we have not appropriated it by faith. We have not understood the depth of the power of putting off the old man and putting on the new. We have mistakenly thought we were not good enough yet to deserve such a thing, LOL. We are blind to the fact that we need the new nature to get changed! It is time we reckoned ourselves dead.

Saints today are tired and confused. For countless silent multitudes, their prayer closet is a dry place, a place to go to when guilt builds, or when desperation makes it the only option left available. Fellowship with God not their wellspring of life. Doctrinal debates rage to such an extent that even true sheep have grown weary because of the way. Confused and trying to survive on pasture that cannot grow saints out of carnal believers, they have made their Christianity a routine, but they have lost the reality. Oh, a good worship service causes a few blips on our spiritual EKG to show there is still life there, but hope in something better has passed away.

But God is beginning to do a new thing in the heart of every true believer, no matter where they are found. He is about to plant our feet on the highway OF holiness, and escape to grip of the flesh plodding along on the highway TO it. When we truly walk in faith that we are new, citizens of another country, our life, every day has meaning. We discover we have a purpose. But something else happens. Something miraculous. As we see that we truly are dead, that it is no more the old us, but we are new, Christ now in us, and we actually become one with Him, we also see that all others who do the same are now one with us as well!

Big big things are coming. It will not be man centered. True men of God will flee the accolades of men. Preachers will LIVE what they preach, walk in the liberty they are teaching others, and
glory to God, offer something to a lost and dying and very deceived world that actually works.

May that day come quickly.

Many blessings,

Gids

...

so often in past times when sharing this message you have been falsely maligned with accusation of judgmentalism ... etc

this excerpt below from "A pilgrims progress" by John Bunyan. reminded me of you and of those which misinterpreted what you have to share as you aid others to also be free of sins chains .

------
"I saw then in my dream, that he went on thus, even until he came at a bottom, where he saw, a little out of the way, three men fast asleep, with fetters upon their heels. Te name of the one was Simple, another Sloth, and the third Presumption. Christian then seeing them lie in this case, went to them, if peradventure he might awake them, and cried, You are like them that sleep on the top of a mast, for the Dead Sea is under you—a gulf that hath no bottom. Awake, therefore, and come away; be willing also, and I will help you of with your irons. He also told them, If he that “goeth about like a roaring lion” comes by, you will certainly become a prey to his.With that they looked upon him, and began to reply in this sort: Simple said, “I see no danger”; Sloth said, “Yet a little more sleep”; and Presumption said, “Every fat must stand upon its own bottom; what is the answer else that I should give thee?” And so they lay down to sleep again, and Christian went on his way. Yet was he troubled to think that men in that danger should so little esteem the kindness of him that so freely offered to help them, both by awakening of them, counseling of them, and proffering to help them of with their irons."

 

[de1929]

?i don't desire that you folow me at all -but only the lord JEsus according to the fulness of HIS word .. not mans .

are you telling me, you don't want me to follow you ?

anyway... fullness of HIS word means nothing. that's why i don't bother about those warnings.

remember you wrote this: What about all the "other" scriptures. ..the ones youve ignored... I have my reasons to cherry picked bible verses that fits my calling...

does your bible verses fit your calling ? or condemns your calling ?

 

[Alithis]

yikes

 

[de1929]

yikes

consider this: US law is to protect US citizen.
our bible works almost like US law. very thick very complicated.

let's see this parable, in italic:

Mr A is US citizen, de1929 is US citizen.
Mr A is plumber, de1929 is the customer. Both resides in United States.
de1929 called Mr A to fix things. Instead, he ruined my house. I sued Mr A in court.
Mr A reputation ruined. Mr A counter-sue de1929 with reason: defamation.

Why US law is not protecting US citizen ? it looks like Mr A and de1929 got problem with law.

yikes ? that's why cherry picked bible bro...

 

[jiminpa]

yes ..

Hi (B) missed ya bro .

i think that deception can only be lifted from repentant hearts . for of the unrepentant it says "they gather teachers unrt themselves ".. they do it not God it is thier choice to choose deception.
a non repentant gospel is a lie .
by that i mean a gospel which teaches only grace and excludes repentance from sin .
the comment of how to be saved is repent and be baptised . to repent means to turn away from sin and to TO the Father .

the uncomfortable truth is .. if ewr continue in the practice of sin -we are not Gods

not a popular thing to say as you and I well know .
i have found a verse in the epistles (123 John) of john that is taken so out of context and used so ,much that no one seems to read the rest of his letter
ie- 1 john chapter 3 -were he undeniable states that a person who continues in sin ..does not know God ...
salvation is a journey ..it is those who stay on that journey who will recieve in full the salvation they have presently "by faith " ..lose that faith and we no longer have grasp of anything at all .

One small disagreement...if there no repentence, it's not grace. Grace convicts and empowers. 2Cor 9:8.

 

[jiminpa]

Yes that would be good if he kept pouring out his spirit so that he overpowered all evil for us 24/7 but when i look at the Lords prayer. forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us.right above that we are asking for our daily bread so it would seen to me that we need to be forgiven daily because we will continue to sin daily.

You missing what he is saying completely. What he's saying is possible, but you can't continue to focus on individual sins and even understand. Look at Paul's progression in his epistles. He moved from sins consciousness to grace (God) consciousness. As we get our eyes off of us, individual sins lose their hold. They happen, but they don't have a grip. We commit them. We present them to the Father, (through Jesus); we understand His grief over them, and we repent and walk on.

I'm not there yet, but I have tasted it.

 

[jiminpa]

yikes

To put it mildly!

All scripture is inspired by God, and profitable.

 

[Gideons300]

To put it mildly!

All scripture is inspired by God, and profitable.

Jim, so good to see you again. I always appreciate your comments. And Michael, sorry I did not say hi. I just sort of barged in on your thread, LOL. Forgive my manners, and nice to see you so grounded. Someday. I am going to come and visit.

I love what you guys wrote, and it is true. All of God's word can be believed and relied upon. Of course, with that acknowledgement comes some serious heart challenges for each of us, amen?

For instance, what God declared us delivered from the power of darkness, not just forgiven, well,see what I mean? It sort of makes us go "ouch", you know? And if we have been given a shield of faith that God guarantees will quench ALL the fiery arrows of satan, and we are still at times resembling a porcupine in flames, do we believe God still? Or does that "yes,but" begin to arise in our minds as we scramble to make sure no conviction hits our hearts.

We feel burdened... even more inadequate as such talk, for if it is truth, then something is off the tracks in our understanding of the gospel. And that is exactly where God wants us..... challenged, needy, hungry, pressing, seeking. When do we find Him and what we need so desperately? When we seek Him with our whole hearts.

It is truly a red letter day when we can finally identify fully with the wretched man of Romans 7. Our opinion of us must go down for our opinion of Him to go up. All our pearls... and self confidence is one of the biggies.

Jesus said "How can you believe which receive honor one of another, and do not seek for that honor that comes from God alone?"

Anyway, bless both you guys.

Gids

 

[jiminpa]

Can you lose your salvation, like you can misplace your keys? No.

Can you commit that one too many sin and God kicks you away? There could be a case made for that from scripture, but the rest of scripture tends to be against it, so not likely.

Can you quickly receive the word of God but not continue on, like a crop planted on rock with some top soil? Yes. Can you believe for a while and have your faith choked out by the cares of the world and the lust of the flesh, like a crop overcome by weeds? Yes. Will you just wake up finding yourself outside of the kingdom? I doubt it. I think that to have once walked with God and to then decide to embrace sin and reject the promptings of God's Spirit to turn your heart back to Him to the point of demanding God be silent, requires a conscious decision with complete understanding of what one is doing. Can you harden your heart to God to point that your final condition is worse than your first? If you believe Jesus, then yes.

Hi Gids. I didn't expect to see you on here anymore. I'm glad you have gotten the release to be back. You are an encouragement to me. Even though there is some definite pain to my walk, I am moving forward. God is walking me through my new reality, and I have become far more aware of His fatherhood than I have in decades, but there are still days when just getting through my workday is all I can manage.

 

[Gideons300]

Can you lose your salvation, like you can misplace your keys? No.

Can you commit that one too many sin and God kicks you away? There could be a case made for that from scripture, but the rest of scripture tends to be against it, so not likely.

Can you quickly receive the word of God but not continue on, like a crop planted on rock with some top soil? Yes. Can you believe for a while and have your faith choked out by the cares of the world and the lust of the flesh, like a crop overcome by weeds? Yes. Will you just wake up finding yourself outside of the kingdom? I doubt it. I think that to have once walked with God and to then decide to embrace sin and reject the promptings of God's Spirit to turn your heart back to Him to the point of demanding God be silent, requires a conscious decision with complete understanding of what one is doing. Can you harden your heart to God to point that your final condition is worse than your first? If you believe Jesus, then yes.

Hi Gids. I didn't expect to see you on here anymore. I'm glad you have gotten the release to be back. You are an encouragement to me. Even though there is some definite pain to my walk, I am moving forward. God is walking me through my new reality, and I have become far more aware of His fatherhood than I have in decades, but there are still days when just getting through my workday is all I can manage.

Excellent post, Jim. I will be praying for you that God encourages you onward and upward. We are not citizens of this world, but we partake of both its good and it's bad.

I pray all who feel like the cares of this world rob then of heaven's blessing will know there is a way to overcome the world and it is the way of faith, of finally planting our flag deep into the soil of a brand new nature we possess, and which wants to possess us. We are new....but not when we believe it hard enough. We believe it because it is a fact.

Let us set our hearts to believe all of the promises of God, for the God we serve is not a man that He might lie. His promises are yea and amen, even the ones that seem far from us, or not applicable due to our weaknesses, or simply beyond our capacity to believe possible for us.

We do not need large faith,but simply to exercise what faith we do have, small as it may be. God is faithful to perfect that which is lacking in our faith, and that should greatly encourage those who feel unworthy or inadequate to walk in the Spirit, myself at the head of that class.

Blessings to Jim and yours, Jim.

Gideon

 

[Biblicist]

Hi Gids. I didn't expect to see you on here anymore. I'm glad you have gotten the release to be back. You are an encouragement to me.

I will definitely second this as well! When Gideon is not on the forum it tends to be not quite the same.

 

[rockytopva]

I believe that the churches are seven which came down in ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with Peter
Smyrna - Early Church - Beginning with Paul
Pergamos - Orthodox... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholic - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate. (Note: No longer in this church... But she could raise her head up again)
Sardis - Protestant - A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Last church - The dangers of becoming lukewarm.

The eternal security doctrine is a Sardisean doctrine. The arguments of Jacob Arminius is a Philadelphian doctrine. Most Laodiceans do not care a lot about doctrine and it would not surprise me to see the churches become one before Christ returns again.

But the Lord tackles the doctrine of eternal security in the Sardisean prophecy...

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3:5

Which also parallels another scripture...

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. - Matthew 10:22

I do not think that the Sardisean or the Philadelphian mindset heresy, however this Christian life is an endurance, which is also reflected in Bunyan's Pilgrims Progress.

 

[jiminpa]

I believe that the churches are seven which came down in ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with Peter
Smyrna - Early Church - Beginning with Paul
Pergamos - Orthodox... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholic - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate. (Note: No longer in this church... But she could raise her head up again)
Sardis - Protestant - A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Last church - The dangers of becoming lukewarm.

The eternal security doctrine is a Sardisean doctrine. The arguments of Jacob Arminius is a Philadelphian doctrine. Most Laodiceans do not care a lot about doctrine and it would not surprise me to see the churches become one before Christ returns again.

But the Lord tackles the doctrine of eternal security in the Sardisean prophecy...

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3:5

Which also parallels another scripture...

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. - Matthew 10:22

I do not think that the Sardisean or the Philadelphian mindset heresy, however this Christian life is an endurance, which is also reflected in Bunyan's Pilgrims Progress.

I commend you for acknowledging that it is your own belief that the seven churches of Revelation are ages, since I see no biblical evidence. It's my belief that any of the characteristics of the churches of Revelation could be present among any group of Christians of any age.

 

[rockytopva]

I commend you for acknowledging that it is your own belief that the seven churches of Revelation are ages, since I see no biblical evidence. It's my belief that any of the characteristics of the churches of Revelation could be present among any group of Christians of any age.

I do not believe that any two can read Revelation and get the same stuff out of it. Therefore I always will state this is how I believe it. I was brought up Baptist by a Catholic dad and a Pentecostal mother. When the revivals begin to abate I was very disturbed of what was going on. When a Branhamite showed me the mystery of the seven churches I was like... Bingo! However I believe that William Branham was a star in the Laodicean age, but not the single star of the Laodicean age. So though I am thankful of the Branhamite revelation, I am odds over the geography and time of each age. Which most would also be at odds with me. I do believe the seven stars as constellations, in which we are all a star that makes up that constellation.

Eternal security is a Sardisean age doctrine. Most Charismatic churches do not teach it.

 

[Gideons300]

I do not believe that any two can read Revelation and get the same stuff out of it. Therefore I always will state this is how I believe it. I was brought up Baptist by a Catholic dad and a Pentecostal mother. When the revivals begin to abate I was very disturbed of what was going on. When a Branhamite showed me the mystery of the seven churches I was like... Bingo! However I believe that William Branham was a star in the Laodicean age, but not the single star of the Laodicean age. So though I am thankful of the Branhamite revelation, I am odds over the geography and time of each age. Which most would also be at odds with me. I do believe the seven stars as constellations, in which we are all a star that makes up that constellation.

Eternal security is a Sardisean age doctrine. Most Charismatic churches do not teach it.

Hi Rocky. You may be correct about most Charismatic churches not teaching OSAS. I hope so, but it seems more and more, I hear from sincere Christians who get up in arms if it is said that one can lose their salvation.

They ask, then we are cast upon our own efforts to stay saved, and that is the furthest thing from the truth. How is this seeming contradiction solved so that we can indeed have assurances of eternal life without walking as "touch-not, taste-not" legalists, and yet giving diligence to our spiritual walk just as He desires?

Once we see the hoplessness of our strength to change ourselves and to not wander, we simply put on our new nature once and for all time. Right now, all true sons and daughters of God possess it, but how few there are who wear them by making that truth their testimony? Because our shield of faith is down, we have no protection from the temptations of satan, and thus walk in our old nature, the one we believe we must lug around and somehow improve. No wonder we are weary because of the way. No wonder we have redefined the gospel to say no matter how far we stray, no matter how much we flee being holy now, somehow in heaven, we will like it then. Dangerous ground if we hang here too long, for sins we have no real conviction of fleeing promise to harden our hearts to such an extent that some will walk away from God..... when the cost may become US.

Do we not see? Jesus said changing us was HIS work, on His shoulders, and it is He that will "cause us" to walk as joy filled, obedient children. Yet year after year, we see little change in us. Almost four decades of trying to overcome disgusting sins and trying to be less self oriented was not enough for me, LOL. Talk about your poster wretched man. I was just as fleshly at year 38 as the day I was saved. In that time, I had burned tnrough my faith and then saw my hope that He would change me in this life dwindle into a resignation that I would never be freed from my self filled nature until death does what Jesus could not do.... make me holy and kind.

The temptation was to lower my belief that the promises of God were for now, were to be taken as written without gutting them, and praise God, that they were for me. Thank God I could never do that, even if it meant I was miserable. God's promises HAD to be true or I was hell bound.

So when I finally came to him as a starving son, and told my Lord that I was not worthy to be called a son. I cried out "Just make me a servant. Empower me to just obey and serve you." It was then, eight years ago, that the heavens moved and God met me, and blew on my faith. I finally believed that what I could never do, He would do in me. No, no, He HAD done already in me. I could walk as a man with a new heart, because it was already done. I coulda actually TAKE to way of escape He guaranteed to provide me when I was tempted. I mean, after all, what good is that escape if we look at it and decide to sin anyway?

Is the new covenant not supposed to be an improvement over the old? If sin still has us deep in our heart, the only real difference is that we are saved the hassle of having to get our sins washed yearly. According to what we seem to accept, in both covenants, no provision is made to FREE us from a nature that likes sin.

No, guys, no. God made full provision to deliver us from the grip of the world. He also gave us deliverance from the rule of our flesh, and said we are obligated no longer to fulfill its lusts. And praise God, it is in His glorious provision to change us as the master potter... to make us holy and laden down with the fruits of the Spirit. We are his work, glory to God. HIS!

Are we not tired yet? Why so little change in us after years of church and prayer and Bible study? Simple. We are not centered on the potter's wheel , standing fast in the faith that we are new creatures. We are armor less for the most part,and no nothing oresisting Satan steadfast in the faith that we Athat we can resist and not yield.......again..... Just as we have always done. It is then that we discover what it is to overcome by coupling the blood of the lamb with the words of our testimony. Guys, it works. I pray we hunger enough to believe it. The blessings God has for us, in THIS life will boggle our minds.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Gideons300]

I will definitely second this as well! When Gideon is not on the forum it tends to be not quite the same.

Hi my friend. Good to see my old regulars again. Lots of new faces as well, and that is great. I have not bored them yet with my take on things. LOL

I hope all is well with you, Bib

Be blessed in Him,

Gids

 

[rockytopva]

I went to a local charismatic church and on looking over the belief statements I said that there was not a whole lot of doctrine here... In which the man smiled at me saying, we like it that way!

Most charismatic churches do not care about the old Calvinist / Armenian arguments.

 

[jiminpa]

I went to a local charismatic church and on looking over the belief statements I said that there was not a whole lot of doctrine here... In which the man smiled at me saying, we like it that way!

Most charismatic churches do not care about the old Calvinist / Armenian arguments.

I find it ironic that the people who pay the most attention to doctrine are also the furthest from the Bible. I can't think of single exception.

 

[Gideons300]

I went to a local charismatic church and on looking over the belief statements I said that there was not a whole lot of doctrine here... In which the man smiled at me saying, we like it that way!

Most charismatic churches do not care about the old Calvinist / Armenian arguments.

This may be true, but here is my fear. Whether we openly support OSAS or not, there has bled over into many charismatics a "new" view of grace that makes any effort on our part to be working for our salvation. We are called to give all diligence to make our calling and election sure, to grow, to press, to be conformed into His likeness, and yet today's charismatic is all about the goodness of God, but when any mention of the severity of God is mentioned, or that He has rightful claim on our lives, one is thought to be legalistic.

We cannot cherry pick verses we agree with and discard others as some suggest. The OSAS teaching has infiltrated our thinking far more than we would like to admit, even when we say we do not believe it as doctrine.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Alithis]

You missing what he is saying completely. What he's saying is possible, but you can't continue to focus on individual sins and even understand. Look at Paul's progression in his epistles. He moved from sins consciousness to grace (God) consciousness. As we get our eyes off of us, individual sins lose their hold. They happen, but they don't have a grip. We commit them. We present them to the Father, (through Jesus); we understand His grief over them, and we repent and walk on.

I'm not there yet, but I have tasted it.

we really do not "have" to commit them any more ..soon you wil enter that also -its his will that you do

"Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God."