Can Messianic Jews get body piercings and/or tattoos?

[BukiRob]

"if ye love me, keep my commandments" is different from being under the law. Christians who see things from a dispensational perspective would definitely say this. Now, under grace, the emphasis should be Gospel witness rather than strivings about the law.

No it doesn't. Look at the Greek and how they are defined and used. There is NO WAY you can arrive at your conclusion unless you being to willfully redefine words to twist into your meaning.

 

[Soyeong]

"if ye love me, keep my commandments" is different from being under the law. Christians who see things from a dispensational perspective would definitely say this. Now, under grace, the emphasis should be Gospel witness rather than strivings about the law.

Indeed, "if ye love me, keep my commandments" is different from being under the law, but it is not different from being obedient to the law. Paul said that being under grace does permit us to sin, which is defined as the transgression of the law. God's grace is not in regard to being permitted to disobey God, but is in regard to paying the penalty for our sins and providing the way for salvation.

 

[faroukfarouk]

No it doesn't. Look at the Greek and how they are defined and used. There is NO WAY you can arrive at your conclusion unless you being to willfully redefine words to twist into your meaning.

If you are saying that all baptists, evangelicals, including men such as Darby, Scofield, faculty at Dallas Th. Seminary, etc. that adhere to a dispensational viewpoint, are those who 'willfully' 'twist' the words of Scripture, then it's clear that you (henceforth on 'ignore') and I are unable to communicate meaningfully.

 

[BukiRob]

Isaiah 40:8

The grass withers and the flowers fall but the WORD of our G-d stands forever.

So what was the word of G-d to Isaiah? Everything spoken by Adonai up to that point. These of course, include the commands of G-d

People try and argue that the law didn't exist until it was given to Israel by G-d as it was communicated to Moche (Moses).. there are serious and in my opinion grave issue with this belief. Scripture makes it crystal clear that the sacrificial system was in place before the flood. The concept of clean and unclean animals existed before the flood. The major problem with the so called Noachide law is that it is not found in scripture and it completely ignores things that are crystal clearly in existence during the pre flood era. For example, the Noachide law does not present a sacrificial system yet the first murder took place after Cains sacrifice was rejected by G-d. I does not see the concept of Clean vs Unclean animals yet we know from the Flood that Noah took 2 unclean animals and 7 pairs of clean animals.

Because of this and because the Noachide law is not present in scripture it should be rejected. g-d speaking of Abraham declares that Abraham kept G-d's laws, statues and decree's yet we do not see this listed. We know that Seth was STILL alive and in fact OUTLIVED Abraham so it is both reasonable and likely that Seth passed down to Abraham those things which his father (Noah) passed down to him.

So we see a sacrificial system in place and we know that man knew about what animals were clean and which were unclean. To me it is far, far more likely that G-d passed down to Adam some portion of the Law to him, perhaps all of it. In order for man to differentiate good from evil, some form of law HAD to exist

If you are saying that all baptists, evangelicals, including men such as Darby, Scofield, faculty at Dallas Th. Seminary, etc. that adhere to a dispensational viewpoint, are those who 'willfully' 'twist' the words of Scripture, then it's clear that you (henceforth on 'ignore') and I are unable to communicate meaningfully.

Im saying YOU dont know what you believe but rather are citing what OTHERS are telling you.

You RARELY cite scripture, do not even know the effective translation of words you ascribe to mean what they dont mean.

Your arguments are reduced to what OTHERS say instead of providing a defense of what YOU have researched yourself.

I do not care what Other men have said. G-d will hold me accountable to what I believe based on the study I have done. I cant say "well G-d Darby and Scofield say...."

Yeshua asked Peter what do others say.... and he parroted kind of what you said.... Darby, Scofield, this denomination, that denomination say......

Then he asked Peter WHAT DO YOU SAY?

Scofield, Darby etc fall under "fruit of the poison tree" metaphor. Some of the most basic, basic precepts are assumed to be true because it has been part of church history of 1800+ years. Yet they are not. Paul was accused of the very things you support. Namely that he was teaching AGAINST the Law of Moche and that is why he is arrested in Acts... but Paul was a Torah supporter yet the "church" hangs its very doctrine of Law nailed to the cross based upon Paul.

 

[BelieveTheWord]

If you are saying that all baptists, evangelicals, including men such as Darby, Scofield, faculty at Dallas Th. Seminary, etc. that adhere to a dispensational viewpoint, are those who 'willfully' 'twist' the words of Scripture, then it's clear that you (henceforth on 'ignore') and I are unable to communicate meaningfully.

Indeed. We aren't going to agree with Scofield. This is a forum Messianic Judaism.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Indeed. We aren't going to agree with Scofield. This is a forum Messianic Judaism.

...but all the law-keeping in the world will not lead to Biblical faith in the Messiah.

(We are a long way from tattoos now, though...)

 

[BukiRob]

...but all the law-keeping in the world will not lead to Biblical faith in the Messiah.

(We are a long way from tattoos now, though...)

That was never the purpose of Torah. Most people who claim Torah is not for the believer of today dont even know the purpose of the Torah

 

[ErezY]

Indeed, "if ye love me, keep my commandments" is different from being under the law, but it is not different from being obedient to the law. Paul said that being under grace does permit us to sin, which is defined as the transgression of the law. God's grace is not in regard to being permitted to disobey God, but is in regard to paying the penalty for our sins and providing the way for salvation.

I've never seen that verse as implying observance to Jewish laws (Torah). My understanding is it refers to the commands that the Messiah gave through the holy spirit to the apostles.


Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

He said to teach all nations in the world as I have taught you. That Messiah himself instructed the nations through the apostles to observe all that he had commanded them.

Acts 1:1 In the first book, O 1Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began 2to do and teach, 2 until the day when 3he was taken up, after he 4had given commands 5through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen.

Here I find the text plainly stating that it was the Messiah who gave the commands through the Spirit to the to the apostles. And here is what Peter stated the Messiah commanded him.

Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.“

I see Him commanding the apostles to preach and testify that Yeshua is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead, he is God in the flesh.

So through these verse I can see that it is through the Holy Spirit that we have a relationship with the Father, by honoring the One He sent, his Son, Yeshua the Messiah. I understand by this that we honor him by believing in Him, what he did, who he is, and what he will do. His instructions can be summed up in two statements. Judaism calls it the Shema v’Ahvata. The first states that there is no other God besides the God of (Israel) Abraham, Issac and Jacob, and the second declares our unending, unfathomable, love for Him, and his command that we should love others, as he loves us.

Faith, honor, hope=Love=The commandment.

When others attempt to twist this truth into observance to Jewish laws I do believe it is they who are not understand the true meaning of Torah. For me, Torah is fulfilled in those who love not those who observe laws because they have been fooled into thinking such observance means or leads to the forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness of sins is only administered and received by faith through love. Without love we have nothing at all. No matter how much we 'believe' our observances will be honored by God. They are not the means, nor the goal of our salvation. Not according to what I've been taught by the holy spirit.

 

[ErezY]

...but all the law-keeping in the world will not lead to Biblical faith in the Messiah.

(We are a long way from tattoos now, though...)

Can Messianic Jews get tat's or piercings? Let me see....can a MJ sin? And be forgiven?? Hmmmm.... I think so... I know of a few Jews who tat'd themselves all over. Messianic included. To me this is like asking if it's o.k. to have two wives... or beat your workers. Or weigh unfair balances. Is it o.k. for anyone who claims to be a child of the God of Israel to sin? Do what he said not to? Probably not. But isn't that what he sent the Messiah for? To save us from our wicked ways? Can we ...(enter sin here)?

So you're probably asking, is it a sin? Jewish law says not to do it. So I believe for a Jew it is a sin. But so was idolatry. Yet I do believe if we 'repent' of such a sin God is more than willing to forgive our sins. To me that is/was the purpose of the Messiah. So ...Yes, we can get tat's and piercings, the same way we can eat pork and not observe the moedim, and yet still have a way to be forgiven. Through faith that precipitates the indwelling of the holy one within us. It's what I believe anyway...

 

[faroukfarouk]

Can Messianic Jews get tat's or piercings? Let me see....can a MJ sin? And be forgiven?? Hmmmm.... I think so... I know of a few Jews who tat'd themselves all over. Messianic included. To me this is like asking if it's o.k. to have two wives... or beat your workers. Or weigh unfair balances. Is it o.k. for anyone who claims to be a child of the God of Israel to sin? Do what he said not to? Probably not. But isn't that what he sent the Messiah for? To save us from our wicked ways? Can we ...(enter sin here)?

So you're probably asking, is it a sin? Jewish law says not to do it. So I believe for a Jew it is a sin. But so was idolatry. Yet I do believe if we 'repent' of such a sin God is more than willing to forgive our sins. To me that is/was the purpose of the Messiah. So ...Yes, we can get tat's and piercings, the same way we can eat pork and not observe the moedim, and yet still have a way to be forgiven. Through faith that precipitates the indwelling of the holy one within us. It's what I believe anyway...

Some good thoughts there; BTW, I didn't start the thread, or state in in the terms given.

What I struggle with is if a Christian gets a witness motivated design inked, ppl coming down hard on him or her. My wife and I talked to a young lady that had gotten John 3.16 in full inked on her wrist area; it was her favorite verse and mine also; I'm sure that it has led to other conversations also.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I've never seen that verse as implying observance to Jewish laws (Torah). My understanding is it refers to the commands that the Messiah gave through the holy spirit to the apostles.


Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

He said to teach all nations in the world as I have taught you. That Messiah himself instructed the nations through the apostles to observe all that he had commanded them.

Acts 1:1 In the first book, O 1Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began 2to do and teach, 2 until the day when 3he was taken up, after he 4had given commands 5through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen.

Here I find the text plainly stating that it was the Messiah who gave the commands through the Spirit to the to the apostles. And here is what Peter stated the Messiah commanded him.

Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.“

I see Him commanding the apostles to preach and testify that Yeshua is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead, he is God in the flesh.

So through these verse I can see that it is through the Holy Spirit that we have a relationship with the Father, by honoring the One He sent, his Son, Yeshua the Messiah. I understand by this that we honor him by believing in Him, what he did, who he is, and what he will do. His instructions can be summed up in two statements. Judaism calls it the Shema v’Ahvata. The first states that there is no other God besides the God of (Israel) Abraham, Issac and Jacob, and the second declares our unending, unfathomable, love for Him, and his command that we should love others, as he loves us.

Faith, honor, hope=Love=The commandment.

When others attempt to twist this truth into observance to Jewish laws I do believe it is they who are not understand the true meaning of Torah. For me, Torah is fulfilled in those who love not those who observe laws because they have been fooled into thinking such observance means or leads to the forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness of sins is only administered and received by faith through love. Without love we have nothing at all. No matter how much we 'believe' our observances will be honored by God. They are not the means, nor the goal of our salvation. Not according to what I've been taught by the holy spirit.

I think I somewhat agree with what you're saying here. New Testament revelation defines and supersedes how the Old Testament is read. (A long way from the tattoo issue, which does not even seem to be present in the New Testament.) Blessings.

 

[ErezY]

Some good thoughts there; BTW, I didn't start the thread, or state in in the terms given.

What I struggle with is if a Christian gets a witness motivated design inked, ppl coming down hard on him or her. My wife and I talked to a young lady that had gotten John 3.16 in full inked on her wrist area; it was her favorite verse and mine also; I'm sure that it has led to other conversations also.

I believe those who judge others are judged already, and those who forgive others are.......... being forgiven as they do so.

Judge not least you be judged.

Matt 6:14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.


Matthew 18:32“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to.33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

Mark 11:25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins. ”

Luke 6:37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Luke 17:3 So watch yourselves. “If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

John 20:23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

I like to see it this way;
If you don’t use the power I gave you, I will not use my power to save you.

I think this speaks to the OP in spades.....

 

[faroukfarouk]

I believe those who judge others are judged already, and those who forgive others are.......... being forgiven as they do so.

Judge not least you be judged.

Matt 6:14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.


Matthew 18:32“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to.33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

Mark 11:25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins. ”

Luke 6:37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Luke 17:3 So watch yourselves. “If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

John 20:23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

I like to see it this way;
If you don’t use the power I gave you, I will not use my power to save you.

I think this speaks to the OP in spades.....

Specifically on tattoos, earrings in faith designs, do you think that in some circumstances they can provoke helpful witness discussions?

Blessings.

 

[ErezY]

I see the revelation of Messiah like sunlight, and Israel as a tree. During spring the tree grew large to sustain the fruit that would come. Many branches were formed and as the sun reached it's highest azimuth the flowers began to bud. As the sun set for fall the fruit emerged. And now the master is going to come back a second time to harvest it's produce. Without the sun that tree would have withered, never producing any fruit. There is no replacement of the tree, it's the same tree. The Messiah rose to produce fruit from it. And that fruit is to feed the nations of the world.

The problem I see is some misunderstand process of growth. The seem to think God forever grows the tree, and that the fruit is actually the same as the branches. Or the trunk. Every part of the tree has a purpose. The only parts that are not left are those that died in sin. They were cut off. But the tree remains. And all are part of it. I just see some fruit that thinks it's a branch...... And branches that deny the presence of any fruit on their tree at all. But this is not the Tree of Life that I know.... My God loves the branches as much as the fruit, and sustains them both through the fire.

 

[Soyeong]

I've never seen that verse as implying observance to Jewish laws (Torah). My understanding is it refers to the commands that the Messiah gave through the holy spirit to the apostles.

In Ezekiel 36:27, it says that the role of the Spirit is to cause people to obey God's laws. Jesus is not have a disagreement with the Father about which laws should be obeyed, but rather he said that he did only the will of the Father (John 5:30), so I don't see anything that indicates that what Jesus commanded wasn't in perfect accordance with what the Father commanded.

However, I'd also argue that John's Gospel is making the claim that it was Jesus who made the covenant with Moses by identifying him as the Memra or Logos or Word. Throughout the first chapter, he made number of strong parallels to an already existing concept and was essentially saying that where the Targum says the Memra did something, that was Jesus. So Jesus wasn't at odds with what he commanded either.

Matthew 28:18

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

The goal of a disciples was to learn how to think and act like their rabbi, or to essentially become an imitation of them (1 Corinthians 11:1). Jesus taught how to keep the Torah both by word and by giving us a perfect sinless example of how it should be obeyed. His disciples certainly learned how to keep the Torah by copying his example, so that would have been included in what he had taught them and was telling them to teach their own disciples.

Faith, honor, hope=Love=The commandment.

The command to love the Lord your God with all of your mind, soul, heart, and strength is a lot easier said than done. What does the life of someone who is obeying that command look like? Jesus said that the rest of the laws hang on the greatest two, so in other words, they paint us a picture of what it looks like to obey them. They instruct us how we are supposed to express our love God and our neighbor.

When others attempt to twist this truth into observance to Jewish laws I do believe it is they who are not understand the true meaning of Torah. For me, Torah is fulfilled in those who love not those who observe laws because they have been fooled into thinking such observance means or leads to the forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness of sins is only administered and received by faith through love. Without love we have nothing at all. No matter how much we 'believe' our observances will be honored by God. They are not the means, nor the goal of our salvation. Not according to what I've been taught by the holy spirit.

I completely agree. Keeping the law was never about justification, but rather it was always about sanctification. In other words, the only way to be declared righteous or to have a right standing before God is by grace through faith. The law is about sanctification and is God instructions for how those that He has declared righteous are have a righteous conduct as we live out our lives and become more like Christ in his obedience to God.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I don't see whether someone has John 3.16 on his or her wrist for witness purposes as the key to whether s/he is justified, sanctified, under grace, etc.

 

[ErezY]

In Ezekiel 36:27, it says that the role of the Spirit is to cause people to obey God's laws. Jesus is not have a disagreement with the Father about which laws should be obeyed, but rather he said that he did only the will of the Father (John 5:30), so I don't see anything that indicates that what Jesus commanded wasn't in perfect accordance with what the Father commanded.

Your paradigm appears to be that God commanded all believers to observe Torah commands as given Israel through Moses. And you see things through this lens. I'm not about to try and refocus you or knock your glasses off. Yet, we do disagree.

However, I'd also argue that John's Gospel is making the claim that it was Jesus who made the covenant with Moses by identifying him as the Memra or Logos or Word. Throughout the first chapter, he made number of strong parallels to an already existing concept and was essentially saying that where the Targum says the Memra did something, that was Jesus. So Jesus wasn't at odds with what he commanded either.

I believe your argument is from assumption, not fact, nor text. I understand this as 'reading into the text'. You can't find the pashat example of this assumption at all, it's only realized by remez. Yet you assert it as pashat. Not a wise move I think.

The goal of a disciples was to learn how to think and act like their rabbi, or to essentially become an imitation of them (1 Corinthians 11:1). Jesus taught how to keep the Torah both by word and by giving us a perfect sinless example of how it should be obeyed. His disciples certainly learned how to keep the Torah by copying his example, so that would have been included in what he had taught them and was telling them to teach their own disciples.

Messiah never once taught in pashat form that his message was merely about keeping the Torah. It was about fulfilling the Torah, making it pashat instead of remez. You seem to take all the remez meanings and assert them as pashat.

The command to love the Lord your God with all of your mind, soul, heart, and strength is a lot easier said than done. What does the life of someone who is obeying that command look like? Jesus said that the rest of the laws hang on the greatest two, so in other words, they paint us a picture of what it looks like to obey them. They instruct us how we are supposed to express our love God and our neighbor.

Love means to obey the Torah? If you don't obey the Torah as given Israel you are not loving God? That is what I'm getting from you here.

I completely agree. Keeping the law was never about justification, but rather it was always about sanctification. In other words, the only way to be declared righteous or to have a right standing before God is by grace through faith. The law is about sanctification and is God instructions for how those that He has declared righteous are have a righteous conduct as we live out our lives and become more like Christ in his obedience to God.

Yea, I've heard that all to much before. You're not saved by the law but for the law. The gospel I've read doesn't seem to state this.

Rom 1:5 Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.

16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Romans 5

16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Justification was achieved through Jesus. Nothing we do justifies us in God's sight but faith in Jesus. Through His obedience we will be made righteous. By grace through faith.

The gospel describes an Obedience that comes through faith…. and reveals a righteousness from God “that is by faith from first to last” Meaning the righteousness has to do with nothing else but faith.

We are commanded to believe (obedience that comes from faith), and this faith reveals a righteousness from God sent as a gift.

To believe in the result of one act of righteousness that justified and brought life to all men. That through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous through faith, by the grace of God.

The result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Grace reigns through (this) righteousness to bring eternal life through Yeshua.

I don't see where observance to Torah commands is revealed here at all. Not that I believe Torah is null and void, only fulfilled by faith in Yeshua, who produces a life of righteousness within us by the indwelling of the holy spirit. IOW he's not checking the list twice to make sure you observed it. He is dwelling within you and living his righteousness through you, by grace through faith, in love. Does Torah negate this, no. Does it command otherwise, not from my understanding.

Do you see how different we see things?

ETA: well I guess I did attempt to refocus you some. But more to try and get you to see where I am coming from. Not so much for thinking I could re-lens your glasses. Just giving you my viewpoint so you can see there are more than one. Sometimes people attempt to force the same glasses on people as they have. (hint; the prescriptions don't match!)

 

[ErezY]

I don't see whether someone has John 3.16 on his or her wrist for witness purposes as the key to whether s/he is justified, sanctified, under grace, etc.

I think of the marks on Messiah's hands after his resurrection. Were they there to remind him of what happened, or us? Likewise when someone shows the marks of sin on his body after they've been saved from within, is it to remind him of what happened or others? As you are implying farouk they serve as a witness to others, and a testimony worth stating. "See how far I fell, and how far God reached to save me". I believe it's the judgmental attitude that you are really hinting at here. The fact that others mock and ridicule others for having these 'marks'.

I don't think you're ever going to get a fundamentalist to agree with you on this though. Love seems so far from their reality. I've been taught that love is not what you do for yourself, but what you do for others. With that mentality how can you love yourself more than others? What I come to realize is that many who seek obedience as the form of love God desires are missing the mark in that they focus on how much 'they' love God (ie how much they are obedient to God) and not so much on how much they love others. Which from what I've learned is the real goal of the Word given us. Example being, Messiah loved us so much he wallowed in sin even though he was not sinful just so he could redeem others. He didn't sit up in his high palace as a sinless being and say you must enter as I have. He said I have done it for you. Let me be your righteousness. It's free....just believe.

 

[Soyeong]

I believe your argument is from assumption, not fact, nor text. I understand this as 'reading into the text'. You can't find the pashat example of this assumption at all, it's only realized by remez. Yet you assert it as pashat. Not a wise move I think.

I'd be interested in your take on this article:

http://www.bibleword.org/wp/the-memra-the-word/2132

Messiah never once taught in pashat form that his message was merely about keeping the Torah. It was about fulfilling the Torah, making it pashat instead of remez. You seem to take all the remez meanings and assert them as pashat.

The law is God's instructions for how to have a righteous conduct and everything that Messiah taught was in accordance with it, especially Matthew 5, where he was teaching us to obey the spiritual principles behind the law, which are inclusive of it.

Love means to obey the Torah? If you don't obey the Torah as given Israel you are not loving God? That is what I'm getting from you here.

It's not that you don't love God if you don't obey that Torah, but that you don't love God in the way that he commanded you to. For instance, people who try to keep the Sabbath on a day other than the 7th day are still honoring God, but they aren't honoring God in the way that He said they should. Our attitude should not be that we can worship God in whatever way we want and God should be happy with what He gets, but rather we should seek to worship God in the way that He wants to be worshipped.

Yea, I've heard that all to much before. You're not saved by the law but for the law. The gospel I've read doesn't seem to state this.

We are commanded to believe (obedience that comes from faith), and this faith reveals a righteousness from God sent as a gift.

Obedience that comes from faith should be in accordance with with what the Torah instructs.

1 John 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

At the time Timothy was a child, the only Scriptures that had been written yet was the OT, so Paul is saying that the Torah is profitable for teaching and training in righteousness and how to do every good work. He didn't say that it was useful for becoming righteous. Being declared righteous is by faith and is about justification or our right standing standing before God, but practicing righteousness or training in righteousness is about sanctification and is about how God has instructed those He has declared righteous to conduct ourselves as we live out our lives. In other words, those who are righteous and called to do what is righteous, so whenever the Bible talks about someone who is righteous, it is also talking about someone who does what is righteous in accordance with God's instructions. In Ephesians 2:8-10 Paul could have equivalently said that we are declared righteous by grace through faith, not by practicing righteousness, but in order to practice righteousness. The good works that God prepared in advance to do are in accordance with every good work that He instructed in the law.

I don't see where observance to Torah commands is revealed here at all. Not that I believe Torah is null and void, only fulfilled by faith in Yeshua, who produces a life of righteousness within us by the indwelling of the holy spirit. IOW he's not checking the list twice to make sure you observed it. He is dwelling within you and living his righteousness through you, by grace through faith, in love. Does Torah negate this, no. Does it command otherwise, not from my understanding.

Do you see how different we see things?

It strikes me as strange that people want to ask "What would Jesus do?", but don't stop to consider that he would obey the law and teach others to do so by example. Or they want to be a disciple of Christ, but they don't want to imitate his total obedience to the law.

Man was righteous, but we fell from grace, and we can not become someone who does what is righteous again through our own efforts because our sin nature's mastery over us causes us to do what is unrighteous. The Good News is that we can be made to be someone who does what is righteous again. God sent His Son to pay the penalty for our unrighteousness, to set us free from our sin nature's mastery over us, and sent His spirit to lead us in obedience, all so that through sanctification e could meet the righteous requirement of the law by living in obedience to it again (Romans 8:1-7). When the Holy Spirit is dwelling within us and living His righteousness through us, by grace through faith, in love, that should take the form of obedience to God's law.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I think of the marks on Messiah's hands after his resurrection. Were they there to remind him of what happened, or us? Likewise when someone shows the marks of sin on his body after they've been saved from within, is it to remind him of what happened or others? As you are implying farouk they serve as a witness to others, and a testimony worth stating. "See how far I fell, and how far God reached to save me". I believe it's the judgmental attitude that you are really hinting at here. The fact that others mock and ridicule others for having these 'marks'.

I don't think you're ever going to get a fundamentalist to agree with you on this though. Love seems so far from their reality. I've been taught that love is not what you do for yourself, but what you do for others. With that mentality how can you love yourself more than others? What I come to realize is that many who seek obedience as the form of love God desires are missing the mark in that they focus on how much 'they' love God (ie how much they are obedient to God) and not so much on how much they love others. Which from what I've learned is the real goal of the Word given us. Example being, Messiah loved us so much he wallowed in sin even though he was not sinful just so he could redeem others. He didn't sit up in his high palace as a sinless being and say you must enter as I have. He said I have done it for you. Let me be your righteousness. It's free....just believe.

Thanks for your comments. Fact is, many Christians do have faith based tattoos and find them to be effective as conversation starters in witness situations.