can I get the catholic take on this.

[kisstheson]

Not the guilt, Scripture is clear:
"Ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from you fathers, but with the precious blood of Chris, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" 1 Peter 1:18, 19.

I believe that guilt could not have redeemed us because guilt is guilt. Only pure innocence can redeem and justify.

As we say in our Confessional rite:
"...I pray You of You boundless mercy and for the sake of the holy, innocent, bitter sufferings and death of Your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to be gracious and merciful to me, a poor, sinful being."

Isaiah 53:10Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,

Our guilt was put on Jesus the innocent lamb.

 

[benedictaoo]

God does not hate us.

Jesus didn't cease to be God's beloved Son.

The scriptures te"ch the Christ bore in Hiis body our sins. It also says in book of galations 'cursed in every man who hangs on the tree." He also bore the curse for us.

The punishment for our sins came on Jesus. isaiah 53

Yes they came on Jesus but not in place of, but to show us. he took on punishment- he took on sin-- he was made to be sin, was punished so we can all know what it is we needed to be saved from.

Keep in mind, up to that point no one even knew what their problems were.

keep in mind that John the Baptist had to tell them, it's becuase they were sinners and they needed to repent becuase their salvation was at hand.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

This is the way God dealt with our sins and Jesus agreed to take that pinishment. See Isaiah 53.

P.S. I don't know how much longer I can debate this. The mods are looking in.

peace and love to all.

Regardless...Jesus loved us and died for all.

Always interesting at OBOB

This MOD so far has found this discussion interesting and edifying; so don't stop on my account!

He agreed to die for us and that entailed taking on the reality of sin (becoming sin) and showing us how horrific sin is to us (the punishments he received, we will receive). he took on sin and punishment. and by his stripes we are healed. ie I look upon him and am healed.

I agree, and so does Scripture...
"He hath made Him to be sin for us who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Cor. 5:21

 

[benedictaoo]

Isaiah 53:10Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,

Our guilt was put on Jesus the innocent lamb.

That's Calvinist exgenesis.

 

[kisstheson]

This MOD so far has found this discussion interesting and edifying; so don't stop on my account!

Groovy!

 

[kisstheson]

That's Calvinist exgenesis.

'cept I'm not a calvinist. I don't believe in once saved always saved.

and you thought you had me pegged.

I am a fightin' Irish though!

now please excuse me...I have to eat my dinner.

This Irish lassy is going Italian tonight.

 

[benedictaoo]

'cept I'm not a calvinist. I don't believe in once saved always saved.

and you thought you had me pegged.

I am a fightin' Irish though!

now please excuse me...I have to eat my dinner.

This Irish lassy is going Italian tonight.

Hon, I'm Irish and Italian and married to the French. so i got you beat.

You may not be a Calvinist but this is their exgenesis.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Isaiah 53:10Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,

Our guilt was put on Jesus the innocent lamb.

I think one thing that we are missing here is love. It was Christ's human nature that died on the cross in our stead; as our Catechism says: "As my Substitute Christ has atoned, or made satisfaction, for my sins by paying the penalty of my guilt. (Vicarious Atonement.)"

It was as God the Son (His divine nature) that He carried our sins, out of His love for us.

If my daughter accidentally (or intentionally for that matter) heaved a baseball through the neighbors window, I out of love for my daughter (after a stern admonishment) would buy an new window and install it.

The broken window is her sin, the admonishment is the law, but because I choose to fix the window out of love, the broken window does not become my sin, it's still hers, even though I paid for it. A little over simplified, but I believe that is how our redemption was bought. The law condemns, the Gospel saves.

Pure love!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Hon, I'm Irish and Italian and married to the French. so i got you beat.

I'm just a pigheaded old German. I'm sure you're all thinking: "Than explains a lot"

LOL

Mark

 

[Maggie893]

Isaiah 53:10Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,

Our guilt was put on Jesus the innocent lamb.

We need some clarification here.

Jesus made Himself an offering. He took our sins upon Himself. He said:

John 10
[17] For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.
[18] No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father."


It was His will to lay down His own life...He is God, so it pleased Him to offer Himself.

 

[Maggie893]

I think one thing that we are missing here is love. It was Christ's human nature that died on the cross in our stead; as our Catechism says: "As my Substitute Christ has atoned, or made satisfaction, for my sins by paying the penalty of my guilt. (Vicarious Atonement.)"

It was as God the Son (His divine nature) that He carried our sins, out of His love for us.

If my daughter accidentally (or intentionally for that matter) heaved a baseball through the neighbors window, I out of love for my daughter (after a stern admonishment) would buy an new window and install it.

The broken window is her sin, the admonishment is the law, but because I choose to fix the window out of love, the broken window does not become my sin, it's still hers, even though I paid for it. A little over simplified, but I believe that is how our redemption was bought. The law condemns, the Gospel saves.

Pure love!

I just want to clarify (not contradict ). The problem with analogies is that they never quite cover everything, you know? Because we are on the forums we are I think it's important to clarify a distinction.

As Catholics we believe that Christ's sacrifice not only atones for our sins but it makes us righteous. So in the analogy where you say the sin is still hers, I would say it is not any longer. It is not Jesus', it is atoned for and removed.

I make the distinction because there are some Christian denominations that don't believe this. You'll hear the analogies such as, we are like a pile of dirt and Jesus' sacrifice covers us in a pure white snow. That makes it as though we look pure but we really aren't. Catholics don't believe that. We believe that through baptism when we are basically taking on Christ's redemption for us by Grace we are made pure. No sin....no original, mortal, venial....no sin. Of course we may fall (will fall) but we are made pure yet again through confession & the eucharist.

We have also not touched upon temporal punishment for sins and I won't go there now but it's important to remember that Christ paid the penalty for sin which is death, however we still may experience the temporal punishment/consequences for our sins even though they are forgiven and we are purified.

I'm not trying to split hairs...I just think that there is a lot of language being used that can be misunderstood and sometimes that's not a good thing.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

neither.

He bore in Him the punishment sin is to us. He born in him Adam's guilt.

When I commit a sin- my soul is black and ugly and if i do not repent i will suffer a punishment.

Jesus bore this punishment in Him so i can visibly see it and know what sin is so i will choose to follow Him and reject sin.

We needed to all see just what sin and rebellion looked like and we saw it in the passion and it was not pretty my friends.

So what does it make us all want to do? Run to Him and love Him and never sin again.

For those who can look upon that cross and feel nothing or actully choose sin over His love- woe to them.
It had nothing to do with, oh he was beaten and died and went to hell so I'm off the hook.

I agree with this, but I think that it was for more than just making us see what sin is?

Because before whenever people repented of sin, they had to make blood sacrifices

it shows that a sacrifice is necessary

so I think that Jesus took on our punishment not just to make us see what sin is but also this had a role in our actual redemption? how?- by satisfying justice... Jesus satisfied justice by being the perfect offering the perfect sacrifice for sin and He took on our sins to destroy sin.. just like He died to destroy death. Would you agree with this? Sorry I'm getting confused by this thread.

Not the guilt, Scripture is clear:
"Ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from you fathers, but with the precious blood of Chris, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" 1 Peter 1:18, 19.

I believe that guilt could not have redeemed us because guilt is guilt. Only pure innocence can redeem and justify.

As we say in our Confessional rite:
"...I pray You of You boundless mercy and for the sake of the holy, innocent, bitter sufferings and death of Your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to be gracious and merciful to me, a poor, sinful being."

Oki I agree with this sort of what we were all talking about in this thread too..

'cept I'm not a calvinist. I don't believe in once saved always saved.

and you thought you had me pegged.

I am a fightin' Irish though!

now please excuse me...I have to eat my dinner.

This Irish lassy is going Italian tonight.

mmm Italian food..pasta.. I'm hungry lol...

btw, I'm neither Irish nor Italian nor French nor German! haha.. but I think all those are pretty cool

 

[Maggie893]

Jesus satisfied justice by being the perfect offering the perfect sacrifice for sin and He took on our sins to destroy sin.. just like He died to destroy death.

But He didn't destroy sin.....sin still exists. He didn't destroy death....death still occurs.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I just want to clarify (not contradict ). The problem with analogies is that they never quite cover everything, you know? Because we are on the forums we are I think it's important to clarify a distinction.

As Catholics we believe that Christ's sacrifice not only atones for our sins but it makes us righteous. So in the analogy where you say the sin is still hers, I would say it is not any longer. It is not Jesus', it is atoned for and removed.

I make the distinction because there are some Christian denominations that don't believe this. You'll hear the analogies such as, we are like a pile of dirt and Jesus' sacrifice covers us in a pure white snow. That makes it as though we look pure but we really aren't. Catholics don't believe that. We believe that through baptism when we are basically taking on Christ's redemption for us by Grace we are made pure. No sin....no original, mortal, venial....no sin. Of course we may fall (will fall) but we are made pure yet again through confession & the eucharist.

We have also not touched upon temporal punishment for sins and I won't go there now but it's important to remember that Christ paid the penalty for sin which is death, however we still may experience the temporal punishment/consequences for our sins even though they are forgiven and we are purified.

I'm not trying to split hairs...I just think that there is a lot of language being used that can be misunderstood and sometimes that's not a good thing.

Thanks Maggie! You of course are right! As a mortal father, I can pay for my daughter's sin, but I can't take it away, the way Christ does for us all.

Thanks again,

Mark

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I just want to clarify (not contradict ). The problem with analogies is that they never quite cover everything, you know? Because we are on the forums we are I think it's important to clarify a distinction.

As Catholics we believe that Christ's sacrifice not only atones for our sins but it makes us righteous. So in the analogy where you say the sin is still hers, I would say it is not any longer. It is not Jesus', it is atoned for and removed.

I make the distinction because there are some Christian denominations that don't believe this. You'll hear the analogies such as, we are like a pile of dirt and Jesus' sacrifice covers us in a pure white snow. That makes it as though we look pure but we really aren't. Catholics don't believe that. We believe that through baptism when we are basically taking on Christ's redemption for us by Grace we are made pure. No sin....no original, mortal, venial....no sin. Of course we may fall (will fall) but we are made pure yet again through confession & the eucharist.

We have also not touched upon temporal punishment for sins and I won't go there now but it's important to remember that Christ paid the penalty for sin which is death, however we still may experience the temporal punishment/consequences for our sins even though they are forgiven and we are purified.

I'm not trying to split hairs...I just think that there is a lot of language being used that can be misunderstood and sometimes that's not a good thing.

good post

yes, that's the difference between what I was taught as a Protestant in my old church and Catholicism.. I was always taught that Christ's sacrifice covers my sins... but no my sins actually get washed away by His Blood and they are no more!! (in Confession )

I always wonder how this happens, and I don't understand, definitely the Protestant view is easier to understand for me, but I believe this. We actually BECOME clean.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

But He didn't destroy sin.....sin still exists. He didn't destroy death....death still occurs.

well He destroyed the power of sin cause now we can be forgiven..

and He gained victory over death by dying and rising again so we can live forever too...

that is what I meant

 

[Maggie893]

well He destroyed the power of sin cause now we can be forgiven..

and He gained victory over death by dying and rising again so we can live forever too...

that is what I meant

Amen to that!

I knew what you meant but I've heard so many atheist/agnostics that will say, "well clearly He didn't get rid of sin because people still sin so He didn't do anything" so I just wanted to pull it out of you. Sorry.

 

[kisstheson]

"As Catholics we believe that Christ's sacrifice not only atones for our sins but it makes us righteous. So in the analogy where you say the sin is still hers, I would say it is not any longer. It is not Jesus', it is atoned for and removed.

I make the distinction because there are some Christian denominations that don't believe this."

This is a bad as protestants saying they understand what catholics believe.

many prots believe as you. They would go as far as saying that ONLY the blood of Christ makes us righteous. We trust in his merits alone. Our sins are removed and are no more.

 

[Maggie893]

"As Catholics we believe that Christ's sacrifice not only atones for our sins but it makes us righteous. So in the analogy where you say the sin is still hers, I would say it is not any longer. It is not Jesus', it is atoned for and removed.

I make the distinction because there are some Christian denominations that don't believe this."

This is a bad as protestants saying they understand what catholics believe.

many prots believe as you. They would go as far as saying that ONLY the blood of Christ makes us righteous. We trust in his merits alone. Our sins are removed and are no more.

Why the attack? I was protestant and believed contrary to what the Church teachs so my statement stands as accurate and not as a condemnation of anyone.

 

[kisstheson]

It wasn't an attack maggie. i'm just pointing out that not all protestants see the blood of Christ as merely covering sins.