can I get the catholic take on this.

[kisstheson]

I've been writing some meditations based on the Passion. can you give me your take on the moment when Jesus said "My God, my God why have you forsaken Me?" Did the Father actually look away from the Son? What happened?

cheer up! It's not my intention to debate you.

 

[CathNancy]

As with all scripture, there are many layers of meaning. If you read the 22nd psalm you will see that it begins with My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? The psalm is full of prophecy of what was occuring at that time, so it can be said that it was further proof of the divinity of Jesus. At the same time, there are moments in our lives when we may feel that God has forsaken us, He has not, but this passage may give comfort to us.

As far as did God the Father actually look away from Jesus, I don't know, but in my opinion, God is all about relationship and the love that exists between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and because of that love I don't think that the Father would have abandoned the Son in any way.

God Bless,
Nancy

 

[Rhamiel]

how could Love reject Love?
but the Bible does say tat Jesus "became" sin for our sake on the cross...
I don't know, this Bible verse is too hard for me

 

[Tonks]

Christ wasn't just "saying" the opening lines of the Song of David he was praying. But it is not just the opening words that are involved. Citing the first words of a text was, in the tradition of the time, a way of identifying an entire passage. Likewise, within the Jewish tradition contemporary experience was often described within the framework of established tradition.

Regardless of the Christological implications of the Psalm (of which there are many) it is, as CathNancy says, a reminder. Beginning in anguish the Psalm continues by reminding us that God will never abandon us and that if - in the end - we remain faithful He will grant us Victory.

The Father did not hate or abandon his own Son...to believe so would demand a Trinity divided.

I think that - at times - too many people spend too much energy into tying Ps 22 to prefiguring the Crucifixion (which it does) and forget the actual message involved and forget to understand Christ in terms of the Psalm.

Amongst other things...the words are cause for Hope and a reminder to remain steadfast.

 

[benedictaoo]

Yeah, some extreme Prots think that God indeed did forsake Jesus as part of the plan to save us, and that's when he descended to hell with all of our sins on Him but was judged righteous, so he rose.

We know that's insanely, ridicoulusly false.

 

[Amylisa]

So Catholic teaching is that, Jesus did not descend to hell? Maybe I am misunderstanding.

Or, He did descend to Hell, but as His own Righteous self. Not with our sins on Him. Is that it?

 

[Catherineanne]

So Catholic teaching is that, Jesus did not descend to hell? Maybe I am misunderstanding.

Or, He did descend to Hell, but as His own Righteous self. Not with our sins on Him. Is that it?

Tradition tells us that Our Lord descended into sheol/hell in order to redeem the righteous who had gone before; they were not in eternal torment, but neither were they with God. I think there is OT prophecy to this effect, but I am not sure where.

And, as has already been said, the words on the cross are a quotation from Psalm 22, and indicate that in the worst moments of our lives we may feel that God is far from us, but in fact he is not.

God had not forsaken Christ at the moment of his death, just as he will not forsake us at ours.

 

[MrPolo]

So Catholic teaching is that, Jesus did not descend to hell? Maybe I am misunderstanding.

Or, He did descend to Hell, but as His own Righteous self. Not with our sins on Him. Is that it?

Here is the great apologist Father Mateo's take:

"After His death, Christ's soul, which was separated from His body,
descended into the underworld." This dogma of our Faith was defined
by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. The 5th century version of
the Apostles' Creed contains the article: "He descended into hell."
By "hell" or "underworld" in this context, we understand not the hell
of the damned, but "the place of detention for the souls of the just
of the pre-Christian era" (Ott, p. 191).

Pertinent Scripture texts are: Acts 2:24, 2:31; 1st Peter 3:19-20.

Among early Christian writers who teach Christ's descent after death
into the underworld are: Justin, Irenaeus, Ignatius of Antioch,
Tertullian, Hippolytus, and Augustine.

Thomas Aquinas (S. Th. III, 52, 5) teaches that Christ's purpose in
the underworld was to free the just there by the application of the
fruits of the Redemption.​

You see him reference Ott, who is Ludwig Ott, the author of Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, which is the book used in good seminaries to teach Catholics the faith. It is very orthodox.

 

[JoabAnias]

Here is the great apologist Father Mateo's take:

"After His death, Christ's soul, which was separated from His body,
​

descended into the underworld." This dogma of our Faith was defined
by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. The 5th century version of
the Apostles' Creed contains the article: "He descended into hell."
By "hell" or "underworld" in this context, we understand not the hell
of the damned, but "the place of detention for the souls of the just
of the pre-Christian era" (Ott, p. 191).

Pertinent Scripture texts are: Acts 2:24, 2:31; 1st Peter 3:19-20.

Among early Christian writers who teach Christ's descent after death
into the underworld are: Justin, Irenaeus, Ignatius of Antioch,
Tertullian, Hippolytus, and Augustine.

Thomas Aquinas (S. Th. III, 52, 5) teaches that Christ's purpose in
the underworld was to free the just there by the application of the
fruits of the Redemption.
​

You see him reference Ott, who is Ludwig Ott, the author of Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, which is the book used in good seminaries to teach Catholics the faith. It is very orthodox.

Yea, the difference is in Hell vs Hades or the Bosom of Abraham if you will I think and where Lazarus was held as described by Scripture.

There was no purgatory before Jesus but those who were righteous like Moses and Isaiah for example are believed to have been delivered.

There are also indications that Jesus was in more than one place at once after His death but as we know, nothing is impossible for God or restricted to our physical and temporal understandings.

 

[neeners]

I've been writing some meditations based on the Passion. can you give me your take on the moment when Jesus said "My God, my God why have you forsaken Me?" Did the Father actually look away from the Son? What happened?

cheer up! It's not my intention to debate you.

Good Lord, it seems just about every thread I notice this morning, the subject matter is things we covered in class Monday night. lol.

Christ was actually praying Psalm 22. And he was speaking in a different language that many didn't know so when they heard him all they could get from it was that he was saying "God" so they started mocking him and saying "oh he is praying for help from God" blah blah..

In reality Christ was just praying a Psalm in knew and if you read the whole thing, it is a Psalm of confidence, courage.

I didn't read through the whole thread so I have no idea if someone already said this.

 

[Maggie893]

It can be confusing because within the Apostles Creed we commonly say....

"He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;"

Some versions say,

He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;

From newadvent...

Rufinus (c. 400) explicitly states that the words descended into hell were not in the Roman Creed, but existed in that of Aquileia. They are also in some Greek Creeds and in that of St. Jerome, lately recovered by Morin. It was no doubt a remembrance of 1 Peter 3:19, as interpreted by Irenaeus and others, which caused their insertion.

In context that scripture reads:

[18] For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;
[19] in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,
[20] who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.


I think it's also noteworthy that while a few rare occurance of possible heavenly residence for maybe Moses and Elijah, it's best understood that all souls, good and evil, were "asleep". This is the older known concept of the limbo of the Fathers (not to be confused with the limbo of infants).

Basically until Christ gave Peter the keys to heaven it wasn't open, and until Christ Himself decended to the dead, hell was not an occupy-able place. Satan and his demons we know "prowl the earth".

So it is that in Christ's death and resurrection He opened the gates of heaven and hell and allowed Peter to be the gatekeeper for Heaven while He alone controls the fate of those in hell.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I've been writing some meditations based on the Passion. can you give me your take on the moment when Jesus said "My God, my God why have you forsaken Me?" Did the Father actually look away from the Son? What happened?

cheer up! It's not my intention to debate you.

To be honest I'm not sure what exactly happened or even what the Church teaching is on this... I know that the Trinity can not actually be divided or separated. But did the Father look away... hmm...

I think the safe option is to just write about Jesus feeling forsaken, and in this way sanctifying human suffering all the way. Also IMO it is safe to think that it was very difficult even painful for the Father to see His Son with all the sin on Him, I don't know if He looked away or not, but it was definitely a horrible moment.

Yeah, some extreme Prots think that God indeed did forsake Jesus as part of the plan to save us, and that's when he descended to hell with all of our sins on Him but was judged righteous, so he rose.

We know that's insanely, ridicoulusly false.

So Catholic teaching is that, Jesus did not descend to hell? Maybe I am misunderstanding.

Or, He did descend to Hell, but as His own Righteous self. Not with our sins on Him. Is that it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what Bene is saying is that some Protestants think that Jesus actually *went to hell* like how unrepentant sinners go to hell..to be tormented there forever.. but being judged righteous, rose again.

However, we don't believe this. Jesus was always righteous, He was never ever condemned to hell. Instead, He went to rescue the souls of people who had died before Him, who could be saved.

 

[hsilgne]

There was no purgatory before Jesus ...

.

This does not sit well with me Joab. I know what you are trying to say though.

However, there was no 'before' Jesus the Christ.

We cannot fully comprehend since our minds are bound by time.

Know what I mean?

 

[Maggie893]

This is from St. Augustine regarding Psalm 50. I think it opens up the concept of God forsaking God and puts a more appropriate perspective on it.

So then He walked hidden among the Jews, among His enemies, doing marvels, suffering ills, until He was hanged on the tree, and the Jews seeing Him hanging both despised Him the more, and before the Cross wagging their heads they said, If He be the Son of God, let Him come down from the Cross. Matthew 27:39-40 Hidden then was the God of gods, and He gave forth words more out of compassion for us than out of His own majesty. For whence, unless assumed from us, were those words, My God, My God, why have You forsaken me? But when has the Father forsaken the Son, or the Son the Father? Are not Father and Son one God? Whence then, My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me, save that in the Flesh of infirmity there was acknowledged the voice of a sinner? For as He took upon Him the likeness of the flesh of sin, Romans 8:3 why should He not take upon Him the voice of sin? Hidden then was the God of gods, both when He walked among men, and when He hungered, and when He thirsted, and when fatigued He sat, and when with wearied body He slept, and when taken, and when scourged, and when standing before the judge, and when He made answer to him in his pride, You could have no power against Me, except it had been given you from above; John 19:11 and while led as a victim before His shearer He opened not His mouth, Isaiah 53:7 and while crucified, and while buried, He was always hidden God of gods.

 

[Maggie893]

Here is what I was looking for. I had read it recently from St. Leo the Great but had to find it online to post here.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360368.htm

Jesus, therefore, cried with a loud voice, saying, Why have You forsaken Me? in order to notify to all how it behoved Him not to be rescued, not to be defended, but to be given up into the hands of cruel men, that is to become the Saviour of the world and the Redeemer of all men, not by misery but by mercy; and not by the failure of succour but by the determination to die. But what must we feel to be the intercessory power of His life Who died and rose again by His own inherent power. For the blessed Apostle says the Father spared not His own Son, but gave Him up for us all Romans 8:32; and again, he says, For Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify it . And hence the giving up of the Lord to His Passion was as much of the Father's as of His own will, so that not only did the Father forsake Him, but He also abandoned Himself in a certain sense, not in hasty flight, but in voluntary withdrawal. For the might of the Crucified restrained itself from those wicked men, and in order to avail Himself of a secret design, He refused to avail Himself of His open power. For how would He who had come to destroy death and the author of death by His Passion have saved sinners, if he had resisted His persecutors? This, then, had been the Jews' belief, that Jesus had been forsaken by God, against Whom they had been able to commit such unholy cruelty; for not understanding the mystery of His wondrous endurance, they said in blasphemous mockery: He saved others, Himself He cannot save. If He be the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we believe Him Matthew 27:42 . Not at your blind will, O foolish scribes and wicked priests, was the Saviour's power to be displayed, nor in obedience to blasphemers' evil tongues was the Redemption of mankind to be delayed; for if you had wished to recognize the Godhead of the Son of God, you would have observed His numberless works, and they must have confirmed you in that faith, which you so deceitfully promise. But if, as you yourselves acknowledge, it is true that He saved others, why have those many, great miracles, which have been done under the public gaze, done nothing to soften the hardness of your hearts, unless it be because you have always so resisted the Holy Ghost as to turn all God's benefits towards you into your destruction? For even though Christ should descend from the cross, you would yet remain in your crime.

 

[thereselittleflower]

This does not sit well with me Joab. I know what you are trying to say though.

However, there was no 'before' Jesus the Christ.

We cannot fully comprehend since our minds are bound by time.

Know what I mean?

Well, before the Incarnation, there was God the Son, but not Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is the God-Man - the God-Man did not exist before the Incarnation.

 

[hsilgne]

Well, before the Incarnation, there was God the Son, but not Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is the God-Man - the God-Man did not exist before the Incarnation.

Again, this does not sit well with me. This is not what I have come to understand. Not saying I am right here - necessarily. But, my current understanding is different than what you are saying. The Gospel of John Chapter 1 describes what I am tryng to say.

 

[JoabAnias]

This does not sit well with me Joab. I know what you are trying to say though.

However, there was no 'before' Jesus the Christ.

We cannot fully comprehend since our minds are bound by time.

Know what I mean?

Well in that sense your correct. God transcends time and in His view all existed at creation yet in our perception of time the incarnation had not yet occured.

What I mean is that before Christs redemption the gates of heaven were closed so theoretically there was no need for purgatory and its also theorized that the bosom of Abraham as described in Scripture was a different state/place than what Purgatory is after Christs redemption.

I found this from Fr. Serpa which should illustrate your point:

The Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit is God. God had no beginning and will have no end. The Father created the world with the Son as the Holy Spirit hovered over it.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

The Greek words hades and gehenna and the Hebrew word sheol are all terms for hell. For details, see the Catholic Encyclopedia article Hell.

 

[kisstheson]

Thanks maggie...

"For the blessed Apostle says the Father spared not His own Son, but gave Him up for us all Romans 8:32; and again, he says, For Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify it . And hence the giving up of the Lord to His Passion was as much of the Father's as of His own will, so that not only did the Father forsake Him, but He also abandoned Himself in a certain sense, not in hasty flight, but in voluntary withdrawal. For the might of the Crucified restrained itself from those wicked men, and in order to avail Himself of a secret design, He refused to avail Himself of His open power."

So this quote is saying that the Father did withdraw. This is what I have always believed because the scriptures says that Christ became sin. How could God the Father look upon sin?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Thanks maggie...

"For the blessed Apostle says the Father spared not His own Son, but gave Him up for us all Romans 8:32; and again, he says, For Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify it . And hence the giving up of the Lord to His Passion was as much of the Father's as of His own will, so that not only did the Father forsake Him, but He also abandoned Himself in a certain sense, not in hasty flight, but in voluntary withdrawal. For the might of the Crucified restrained itself from those wicked men, and in order to avail Himself of a secret design, He refused to avail Himself of His open power."

So this quote is saying that the Father did withdraw. This is what I have always believed because the scriptures says that Christ became sin. How could God the Father look upon sin?

kisstheson, this is a very, very deep mystery, and one on which many have stumbled. It is very, very important to be well grounded in the Catholic faith before trying to create a work based on this event.

God is indivisible. The God the Father does not abandon God the Son for God does not abandon God. He does not separate Himself from the other Persons of the Trinity, this would be totally contrary to the Trinity which is ONE.

Just as Jesus' human nature experienced temptation and the infirmities of the flesh common to all men, thisis what human nature of Jesus experienced - an experiential abandonment, not an abandomnent in reality.

The Dark Night of the Soul that St John of the Cross speaks to us, where the soul feels utterly foresaken and abandoned by God, as though God had ceased to exist from the very atoms of the universe, is only a small taste of this experience of Jesus on the cross. It is as though a veil was thrown over the human experience.

God did not abandon Jesus for the Divine Nature is forever joined to the human nature of Jesus. The Divine Nature did not separate itself from Jesus - did not step to the side as though it inhabited Jesus and then stopped inhabiting Jesus. Jesus is the God-Man, and continued to be the God-Man on the cross.

The best way I have found to understand this is that the only thing that happened is that Jesus' human nature was deprived of the experience of God's presence for a space of time. Can we imagine the deep, deep agony this would have caused?