can I get the catholic take on this.

[MoNiCa4316]

Amen to that!

I knew what you meant but I've heard so many atheist/agnostics that will say, "well clearly He didn't get rid of sin because people still sin so He didn't do anything" so I just wanted to pull it out of you. Sorry.

lol it's oki! I've heard atheists say so too.

"As Catholics we believe that Christ's sacrifice not only atones for our sins but it makes us righteous. So in the analogy where you say the sin is still hers, I would say it is not any longer. It is not Jesus', it is atoned for and removed.

I make the distinction because there are some Christian denominations that don't believe this."

This is a bad as protestants saying they understand what catholics believe.

many prots believe as you. They would go as far as saying that ONLY the blood of Christ makes us righteous. We trust in his merits alone. Our sins are removed and are no more.

When I was a Protestant I was always told that the Blood of Christ covers my sins but I can not actually be righteous. As a Catholic I am told that it's not that the Father looks at me and sees me as righteous because Christ is righteous, but by His merits we actually become this way. His righteousness becomes our own, actually enters into us....

the Church teaches that only the Blood of Christ makes us righteous, and that we are to trust in Him.

 

[Maggie893]

It wasn't an attack maggie. i'm just pointing out that not all protestants see the blood of Christ as merely covering sins.

Which is why I said "some". I guess I don't really understand your motives. You started a thread called "can I get the catholic take on this" and when I make a point regarding Catholic belief and clarify that some protestants don't believe this, you compare my attempt to protestants who claim to know what Catholics believe. I didn't make any attempt to state what "all" protestants believe...just noting that some are different as I was one and believed differently.

I'm sorry I participated in your thread in a way that wasn't acceptable to you. I'll forgo that in the future.

 

[benedictaoo]

I think one thing that we are missing here is love. It was Christ's human nature that died on the cross in our stead; as our Catechism says: "As my Substitute Christ has atoned, or made satisfaction, for my sins by paying the penalty of my guilt. (Vicarious Atonement.)"

the problem with this you are separating his human nature from His divine.

 

[kisstheson]

lol it's oki! I've heard atheists say so too.



When I was a Protestant I was always told that the Blood of Christ covers my sins but I can not actually be righteous. As a Catholic I am told that it's not that the Father looks at me and sees me as righteous because Christ is righteous, but by His merits we actually become this way. His righteousness becomes our own, actually enters into us....

the Church teaches that only the Blood of Christ makes us righteous, and that we are to trust in Him.

Monica you were never taught this verse why you were a Protestant?

"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification and redemption." 1 Cor. 1:30​

 

[kisstheson]

Which is why I said "some". I guess I don't really understand your motives. You started a thread called "can I get the catholic take on this" and when I make a point regarding Catholic belief and clarify that some protestants don't believe this, you compare my attempt to protestants who claim to know what Catholics believe. I didn't make any attempt to state what "all" protestants believe...just noting that some are different as I was one and believed differently.

I'm sorry I participated in your thread in a way that wasn't acceptable to you. I'll forgo that in the future.

maggie, Please don't leave. The discusion gets heated and sometimes we misunderstand one another but we are all friends here. the important hing is we all believe Jesus died for our sins and we are made righteous through his death. Besides you'll agree with me, I'm sure, that OBOB never get boring. There's always a fresh debate happening.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

the problem with this you are separating his human nature from His divine.

Sorry, that was not my intent; from reading the posts we seem to be dwelling on Christ's human nature at the expense of the Divine. Christ is "true God and true man at the same time. He still is and will ever be! Like His Dual nature, His Divine love, and His Divine sinless perfection can not be separated.

 

[benedictaoo]

Sorry, that was not my intent; from reading the posts we seem to be dwelling on Christ's human nature at the expense of the Divine. Christ is "true God and true man at the same time. He still is and will ever be! Like His Dual nature, His Divine love, and His Divine sinless perfection can not be separated.

No problem, it's easy to go to the end of the spectrum when trying to defend something.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I think you will find a very good CATHOLIC writing on this when you read a doctor of the Church.

CHURCH FATHERS: Exposition on Psalm 22 (Augustine)

CHURCH FATHERS: Exposition on Psalm 44 (Augustine)

AND here are some other pieces of interest...

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, I.8 (St. Irenaeus)


CHURCH FATHERS: Exposition on Psalm 38 (Augustine)
He had taken upon Himself, and hung on the Tree. Lest therefore some persons should think (as some of the Heretics think), that our Lord Jesus Christ had only a false body of flesh; and that the death by which He made satisfaction on the Cross was not a real death, the Prophet notices this, and says, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree. He shows then that the Son of God died a true death, the death which was due to mortal flesh: lest if He were not accursed, you should think that He had not truly died. But since that death was not an illusion, but had descended from that original stock, which had been derived from the curse, when He said, You shall surely die: Genesis 2:17 and since a true death assuredly extended even to Him, that a true life might extend itself to us, the curse of death also did extend to Him, that the blessing of life might extend even unto us. And they cast Me forth, Your Darling, even as a dead man in abomination.
26. Forsake me not, O Lord; O my God, depart not from me Psalm 37:21. Let us speak in Him, let us speak through Him (for He Himself intercedes for us), and let us say, Forsake me not, O Lord my God. And yet He had said, My God! My God! why have You forsaken Me? Matthew 27:46 and He now says, O My God, depart not from Me. If He does not forsake the body, did He forsake the Head? Whose words then are these but the First Man's? To show then that He carried about Him a true body of flesh derived from him, He says, My God, My God why have You forsaken Me? God had not forsaken Him. If He does not forsake You, who believest in Him, could the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, One God, forsake Christ? But He had transferred to Himself the person of the First Man. We know by the words of an Apostle, that our old man is crucified with Him. Romans 6:6 We should not, however, be divested of our old nature, had He not been crucified in weakness. For it was to this end that He came that we may be renewed in Him, because it is by aspiration after Him, and by following the example of His suffering, that we are renewed. Therefore that was the cry of infirmity; that cry, I mean, in which it was said, Why have You forsaken Me? Thence was it said in that passage above, the words of mine offences. As if He were saying, These words are transferred to My Person from that of the sinner.

CHURCH FATHERS: Sermon 67 (Leo the Great)Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more. ... O God, My God, look upon Me: why have You forsaken Me ? ...


CHURCH FATHERS: Homily on "Father, if it be possible..." (Chrysostom)On the passage Father if it be possible let this cup pass from me, .... the cross saying My God, My God why have you forsaken me? and the burial also does ...


CHURCH FATHERS: Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed (St. Augustine)My God, my God, why have You forsaken Me? They are the words of the Lord ... To the just He will say in the judgment, Come, you blessed of My Father, ...



HOPE these help and you should really check them out.

Just bringing this back up - cos no one noticed what the early Church fathers said on the subject.

 

[WarriorAngel]

maggie, Please don't leave. The discusion gets heated and sometimes we misunderstand one another but we are all friends here. the important hing is we all believe Jesus died for our sins and we are made righteous through his death. Besides you'll agree with me, I'm sure, that OBOB never get boring. There's always a fresh debate happening.

Some would say we are a dysfunctional family.

Would someone pass me the mashed taters without throwing a spoonful at me??

 

[WarriorAngel]

Which is why I said "some". I guess I don't really understand your motives. You started a thread called "can I get the catholic take on this" and when I make a point regarding Catholic belief and clarify that some protestants don't believe this, you compare my attempt to protestants who claim to know what Catholics believe. I didn't make any attempt to state what "all" protestants believe...just noting that some are different as I was one and believed differently.

I'm sorry I participated in your thread in a way that wasn't acceptable to you. I'll forgo that in the future.

Which is the problem with protestanism.

Everyone who has an opinion - no matter how valid it might stack up to scriptures [without the fullness of scriptures] - can create or found their own church.

Not so in Catholicism.

You either agree - or try to find a way to agree - or you go find a protestant church who suits your OWN preferences vs the need to obey by adapting to God's precepts.

Interesting really.

Does God want us to have our own ideas? Or did He want us to follow His?
Not terribly difficult to figure out, but that's imo.

 

[plmarquette]

Have you considered the events.....
Look at what is written about passover in the old covenant ...
1. lamb without spot
2. kept within the city for a week
3. killed in the afternoon outside of the city
4. the blood collected and applied to windows and doors

Look up the Scapegoat....
1. 2 lambs....one to be sacrificed, one to have the sins of the people imputed to
2. 1 killed, the other turned loose to wander and die in the wilderness

Look up the day of atonement .....
1. the killing of the lamb
2. the sprinkling of the blood on the people
3. the covering of their sins

Look at what Paul writes in Hebrews....
1. Jesus , the new hight priest
2. we are all priests in the order of Melchisidek
3. the blood of goats, rams...how much more the blood of Jesus

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I saw this on an Orthodox website, would you all say that the Catholic Church also teaches this idea?

The Church teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ became a perfect human so that - being one of our kind - He would defeat all those things that defeated and brought about sickness to human nature.
In His (Christ’s) person, human nature overcame sin, the devil and death. Because whoever allows himself to be defeated by someone, becomes that person’s slave”. (Peter II, 2: 19).
Therefore, in order for the Lord to rise from the dead and thus defeat death, He first had to die. But now, through faith in Jesus Christ, and in communion with His Body –the Church- every person can partake of this victory!

another way of saying this is that He sancitified human nature by becoming a human, defeated death by dying and rising again, etc.. so we can share in His victory.

what do you think?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Monica you were never taught this verse why you were a Protestant?

"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification and redemption." 1 Cor. 1:30
​

as a Protestant I was taught in my church (and in the campus ministry group I belonged to) that God sees us as righteous even though we are not, because of Jesus' sacrifice. This is not true. God makes us righteous and takes away our sins through the Sacraments, so when He declares someone righteous it's because they really are. It still happens because of Christ's sacrifice, yes, but I don't think God can lie.

 

[thereselittleflower]

you guys might get upset with me - or maybe it's just a bad day here -

I can't believe this but I think I still don't fully get this Jesus' sacrifice stuff vs. substitutionary atonement stuff and I don't think I ever will and I am getting distressed and frustrated to the point where I'm wondering if I really believe ANY of this anymore. Jesus' sacrifice doesn't make ANY sense to me and I'm almost disbelieving all of it

I didn't want to tell anyone in the thread that I still don't get it after all the explanations, but I've never been in so much doubt - almost DISBELIEF - as I have now. Something's wrong

You are trying too hard. Remember, these are mysteries of the Faith, and so are not easy to grasp.

Because it is easy to go too far off in one direction or the other in trying to explain/understand, it is really propbably better to put your understanding on the side lines and let God show you in due time.

It's ok that you don't get it.

 

[Rhamiel]

I saw this on an Orthodox website, would you all say that the Catholic Church also teaches this idea?



another way of saying this is that He sancitified human nature by becoming a human, defeated death by dying and rising again, etc.. so we can share in His victory.

what do you think?

I would say it is Catholic Church teaches that, but it is more emphasized by the Orthodox

 

[benedictaoo]

I saw this on an Orthodox website, would you all say that the Catholic Church also teaches this idea?



another way of saying this is that He sancitified human nature by becoming a human, defeated death by dying and rising again, etc.. so we can share in His victory.

what do you think?

I like the Eastern Catholic/ Orthodox view on a lot of stuff. I see it as a healing rather then some forensic justice.

Jesus showed us the way to the Father. That sums it up pretty good. We find the answers by looking to the cross.

He destroyed death and sin and Satan and hell by showing us what to do in the face of temptation, hate, suffering, hurt, what ever... LOVE is the answer. it is not about punishment, it's about love. he teaches us how to love and love draws down God's favor.

The two things Adam screw up on was not obeying and not loving God.

Our salvation is pretty simple and it's revealed to us in the cross. Obey God's will no matter what the cost and do it out of love, love for God and love for others.

 

[kisstheson]

as a Protestant I was taught in my church (and in the campus ministry group I belonged to) that God sees us as righteous even though we are not, because of Jesus' sacrifice. This is not true. God makes us righteous and takes away our sins through the Sacraments, so when He declares someone righteous it's because they really are. It still happens because of Christ's sacrifice, yes, but I don't think God can lie.

We are righteous because our life is hidden with christ in God.Jesus took our sins away. But you are not righteous apart from Christ. Don't you sin every day? the apostle John says the person who says they don't sin is a liar but if anyone does sin we have an advaocate before the father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

 

[benedictaoo]

as a Protestant I was taught in my church (and in the campus ministry group I belonged to) that God sees us as righteous even though we are not, because of Jesus' sacrifice. This is not true. God makes us righteous and takes away our sins through the Sacraments, so when He declares someone righteous it's because they really are. It still happens because of Christ's sacrifice, yes, but I don't think God can lie.

Well he doesn't make us righteous, we become it after redemption by uniting our will to His and walking in the Spirit, denying the flesh.

 

[Amylisa]

You are trying too hard. Remember, these are mysteries of the Faith, and so are not easy to grasp.

Because it is easy to go too far off in one direction or the other in trying to explain/understand, it is really propbably better to put your understanding on the side lines and let God show you in due time.

It's ok that you don't get it.

That's exactly what I was thinking!
Been there and done that (trying too hard). Just set it aside for now LadyBug. Try not to worry about it.

 

[kisstheson]

Which is the problem with protestanism.

Everyone who has an opinion - no matter how valid it might stack up to scriptures [without the fullness of scriptures] - can create or found their own church.

Not so in Catholicism.

You either agree - or try to find a way to agree - or you go find a protestant church who suits your OWN preferences vs the need to obey by adapting to God's precepts.

Interesting really.

Does God want us to have our own ideas? Or did He want us to follow His?
Not terribly difficult to figure out, but that's imo.

Or you're burned at the stake like in the old days.

ooooooh *snap*