Can algorithms tell us who wrote the Bible?

[joshua 1 9]

They surely have a bias for the usefulness of algorithms and software to accurately identify a difference in authors. They must also have a certain bias for the reliability of abstractions to mirror reality to the point of trusting them to make such a differentiation. I am skeptical of the ability of any program or construct to do so. Even if such things could be made free of the human assumptions about the nature of reality that are built into them I do not see how they could possibly be expected to be discerning enough to see the difference between two people with different styles and one person consciously choosing to express things in a different way at different times. I might want to say a thing one way one time and then say something a different sort of way at a time other than the first.
Or
I might change things around a bit ey?
You never know,
Just what a guy might,
want to do ,
if a new thing, might
get your attention!?!

There is a story about the Alaskan Bush family. One of the brothers has a friend that manages the junk yard. They say they think alike and their brain works the same. Perhaps this is a part of why people become friends.

 

[HebrewVaquero]

Excited!!!
Just stumbled across this thread!
But it's off to work I must go, will read the main and posts later.
However before I make a hasty departure allow me to add:
Very curious on algorithms as they pertain to the lunar cycle and therefore to the lunar Sabbath.
Hmmm..... Maybe God does know what He is talking about, imagine that!

 

[joshua 1 9]

Excited!!!
Just stumbled across this thread!
But it's off to work I must go, will read the main and posts later.
However before I make a hasty departure allow me to add:
Very curious on algorithms as they pertain to the lunar cycle and therefore to the lunar Sabbath.
Hmmm..... Maybe God does know what He is talking about, imagine that!

The Hebrews still use the lunar cycles. That way no matter where they are in the world they can watch the moon and follow the calendar to observe their religious holidays.

 

[grasping the after wind]

That's it, don't answer the questions just attack the questioner, that's the usual and well worn religious way out.

The sceptical do not need to be sold because they already know it to be true, I am attracted here because I find the gullible incredibly fascinating, I sit in awe and sadness at the things they say they believe, a bit like reality TV it's addictive.

The skeptical already know it to be true? I think you may need to brush up on the meaning of the word skeptical.
I usually don't answer a question addressed to someone else when I do not hold the same opinion as the person it was addressed to. Did I miss a question that was addressed to me? If so i am afraid you will have to repeat it as it must have gotten lost in all the self aggrandizement. I was curious as to whether you would consider if needing any evidence at all to come to a conclusion about the thought processes of people you have never actually met ever become a factor in this or is having an opinion based solely upon being convinced by faith alone of one's mental superiority the way to measure these things?

 

[Frenzy]

The skeptical already know it to be true? I think you may need to brush up on the meaning of the word skeptical.
I usually don't answer a question addressed to someone else when I do not hold the same opinion as the person it was addressed to. Did I miss a question that was addressed to me? If so i am afraid you will have to repeat it as it must have gotten lost in all the self aggrandizement. I was curious as to whether you would consider if needing any evidence at all to come to a conclusion about the thought processes of people you have never actually met ever become a factor in this or is having an opinion based solely upon being convinced by faith alone of one's mental superiority the way to measure these things?

Mumbo jumbo.........
If someone says they are a Republican would you think it strange if someone thought that person thought like a Republican and agreed with a lot of what Republicans say they thought?
Christians obviously believe at least most of what other Christians believe don't they? or would you insist that every Christian be treated as if they all believe something different?
If someone says they believe aliens have visited earth I think it would be pretty safe to assume they are not one of life's greatest thinkers.

 

[Papias]

"JERUSALEM (AP) — Software developed by an Israeli team is giving intriguing new hints about what researchers believe to be the multiple hands that wrote the Bible."

.....

http://news.yahoo.com/israeli-algorithm-sheds-light-bible-163128454.html

Intersting! Yes, bible scholars have known for a long time that several books are actually compilations by different authors. From the article:

When the new software was run on the Pentateuch, it found the same division, separating the "priestly" and "non-priestly." It matched up with the traditional academic division at a rate of 90 percent — effectively recreating years of work by multiple scholars in minutes, said Moshe Koppel of Bar Ilan University near Tel Aviv, the computer science professor who headed the research team.

"We have thus been able to largely recapitulate several centuries of painstaking manual labor with our automated method," ​

The same goes for the New Testament - scholars have recognized for years that of the 14 books that claim to be by Paul, only 7 of them are clearly by Paul - with at least 4 being clear forgeries. I wonder if these were also run through the computer program?

In Christ-

Papias

 

[Xalith]

Eh, OP... let's pause here for a second.

If you're a Christian... you know who wrote the first 5 books of the Bible, because Jesus Himself said so.

Now, I understand the Jews not believing in Christ or His words, but no Christian should ever have a problem with Genesis through Deuteronomy because Christ Himself said Moses wrote it.

 

[Hoghead1]

Zalith, you need to do a better job of studying Christianity before you make such bold and unfounded claims as you did above. Many of us Christians, especially in the liberal branch of the church, do not at all accept that Moses wrote the Pentateuch. The original texts had no titles on them, no "Book of Moses," nor any other claim of authorship, to begin with. And you find that down through the ages, scholars did question whether Moses actually did write it. With he birth of modern literary studies of the Bible, back in the 19th century, the emphasis fell upon a painstaking scholarly analysis of the Bible in it original languages. The result, based on key factors, such as style and content, suggest at least four, if not more, authors for the Pentateuch, and these authors wrote at radically different times as well. I could provide you with some ensamples here, if you want. As to Christ claiming that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, that seems a way off farfetched interpretation of Christ's statements. I could think of several you have in mind, but am wondering which ones did you actually have in mind. You have to remember that, at the time, there really was no Bible, no canon as we understand it to be. When the NT refers to "scriptures, etc.," it is not always apparent what manuscripts they are referring to. Again, I can go more into detail if you want. Anyhow, please, try and do a better job of representing accurately the rich pluratity of Christian thought and belief.

 

[Martinius]

...I am skeptical of the ability of any program or construct to do so. Even if such things could be made free of the human assumptions about the nature of reality that are built into them I do not see how they could possibly be expected to be discerning enough to see the difference between two people with different styles and one person consciously choosing to express things in a different way at different times. I might want to say a thing one way one time and then say something a different sort of way at a time other than the first...

I am trying really hard to come up with a plausible explanation for why a scripture writer would purposely try to write one book or letter so much differently than another. It would be as if the author was trying to confuse the reader or to pretend to be someone else. The reasonable conclusion is that the books or passages that appear to have been written by different people probably were. And now we have support for that conclusion from human and cyber sources.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Eh, OP... let's pause here for a second.

If you're a Christian... you know who wrote the first 5 books of the Bible, because Jesus Himself said so.

Now, I understand the Jews not believing in Christ or His words, but no Christian should ever have a problem with Genesis through Deuteronomy because Christ Himself said Moses wrote it.

Where does He says that? He said: "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me."

 

[timewerx]

Can algorithms tell us who wrote the thebook?

A well-designed one could, so the answer is Yes.

A specialist machine could always do a better job than a human so it is not surprising if the machine is telling the truth. This is my opinion as an ex-programmer and ex-data analyst.

Nowadays, I'm just a clerk, but using my algorithm coding skills, I have managed to fully automate many of my complex analytical and reporting tasks.. I get praises and all for pushing just a few buttons, delivering flawless work ahead of time, and staring at the forums for most of the day at work. Automation ftw!

 

[HebrewVaquero]

A well-designed one could, so the answer is Yes.

A specialist machine could always do a better job than a human so it is not surprising if the machine is telling the truth. This is my opinion as an ex-programmer and ex-data analyst.

Nowadays, I'm just a clerk, but using my algorithm coding skills, I have managed to fully automate many of my complex analytical and reporting tasks.. I get praises and all for pushing just a few buttons, delivering flawless work ahead of time, and staring at the forums for most of the day at work. Automation ftw!

First of all allow me to say; I'm not a programmer nor have I ever been, (not counting electrical software for PLC's)
But common sense tells me the degree of difficulty would exponentially increase when analyzing edited and/or complied documents and authors whose writings span many years.
Any thoughts?

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

To a certain extent. One also has to realize that Isaiah is the only known professional of literature, who's writing style wouldn't be subject to evolve or otherwise change. For example, Paul was in his office for like thirty years, and so the nature and style of his material is going to differ over time.

 

[HebrewVaquero]

To a certain extent. One also has to realize that Isaiah is the only known professional of literature, who's writing style wouldn't be subject to evolve or otherwise change. For example, Paul was in his office for like thirty years, and so the nature and style of his material is going to differ over time.

Yes, that does rule out editing and compiling, but what if Isaiah took 20 or 40 years to complete his writings? Wouldn't his writing style change over the years? We know Isaiah had a Scribe. What effect would a new Scribe have on his writings or dictation versus writing with his own hand?
Maybe I'm naive, but I see way to many variables here.

 

[joshua 1 9]

A well-designed one could, so the answer is Yes.

A specialist machine could always do a better job than a human so it is not surprising if the machine is telling the truth. This is my opinion as an ex-programmer and ex-data analyst.

Nowadays, I'm just a clerk, but using my algorithm coding skills, I have managed to fully automate many of my complex analytical and reporting tasks.. I get praises and all for pushing just a few buttons, delivering flawless work ahead of time, and staring at the forums for most of the day at work. Automation ftw!

Then why don't we have artificial intelligence if a machine can do a better job then a human?

 

[timewerx]

First of all allow me to say; I'm not a programmer nor have I ever been, (not counting electrical software for PLC's)
But common sense tells me the degree of difficulty would exponentially increase when analyzing edited and/or complied documents and authors whose writings span many years.
Any thoughts?

That is a valid point.

Machine-learning algorithms would dramatically reduce the complexity of coding algorithms becaush such programs can automatically build and categorize its own profile/scenario database based on probability calculations. Assuming the program in the OP used this method. Honestly, I don't see any other more efficient means to automate the task.

About your dilemma of writing style changing over the years.

Let me ask you a question to answer your question. If you saw a literature written by you that came from 20 years from the future (time traveled somehow), would you recognize it without reading the name of the author??

You probably won't.... The solution for this is to greatly expand the number of parameters to compare and increase the threshold for error for each parameter and through probability calculations anyway, it can hit a very close probability match if it's really you. This is easy to miss for a human, but not for a machine.

 

[Armoured]

The story is that Alexander the Great SOLD the books in the library of Alexander to pay for his war debts. Then he staged a fire to make it look like the scrolls were burned in the fire.

Uh-huh. And where'd you hear this story?

Alexander the Great Died: June 323 BC, Babylon, Iraq

Fire at the Great Library; 391 AD

But do go on...

 

[florida2]

Uh-huh. And where'd you hear this story?

Alexander the Great Died: June 323 BC, Babylon, Iraq

Fire at the Great Library; 391 AD

But do go on...

Come on, Armoured - you know Josh doesn't let reality get in the way of a good story.

 

[timewerx]

Then why don't we have artificial intelligence if a machine can do a better job then a human?

I have worked in one company with a large number of clients which are large institutions and handles millions of data points per year which are all automatically collected (which are turned into real time summary reports, daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, all fully automated..)via sensors with 3G boards. It was automated to the point, the owner and an assistant could easily run the whole thing! The automation initiative produced exceptional quality work every time.

Why isn't this a commonplace yet? We have to thank people who hesitate to try new and *much more efficient* ways to do things, else, a lot of us will lose our jobs!

A fully automated business is already around the corner.... Our capitalistic economic system is just incompatible with it. Imagine losing 50% of your workers due to automation, jobless rates rocket skywards and we hit a global depression never seen before because a lot of paying customers will lose their jobs. Huge amounts of jobless persons, society will collapse to anarchy.

We are destined to destroy ourselves over and over and over...

 

[joshua 1 9]

I have worked in one company with a large number of clients which are large institutions and handles millions of data points per year which are all automatically collected (which are turned into real time summary reports, daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, all fully automated..)via sensors with 3G boards. It was automated to the point, the owner and an assistant could easily run the whole thing! The automation initiative produced exceptional quality work every time.

Why isn't this a commonplace yet? We have to thank people who hesitate to try new and *much more efficient* ways to do things, else, a lot of us will lose our jobs!

A fully automated business is already around the corner.... Our capitalistic economic system is just incompatible with it. Imagine losing 50% of your workers due to automation, jobless rates rocket skywards and we hit a global depression never seen before because a lot of paying customers will lose their jobs. Huge amounts of jobless persons, society will collapse to anarchy.

We are destined to destroy ourselves over and over and over...

My son is wanting to get into that field. He does not know if he wants computer science or computer engineering. But his brother is trying to get him to study BOTH so he can build the equipment and program it. Of course they have had robotics for a long time now. Only they are making some progress to where they are able to do a lot more. It is sort of unusual to think that he will be make very good money building the systems that will put people out of work.