Can a christian loose his salvation?

[razzelflabben]

But they have all been addressed. I think what would be best is to focus on one at a time, because when a certain passage is addressed a number of unrelated perceived 'problem' passages are piled on. If you PM me the passages that you are concerned about I'll take my time and try to elaborate on them for you. Hopefully Hebrews 6 was cleared up a bit from the original post, if not message me with concerns about that too.

actually, HEb. 6 was just to the point of disagreement and everyone but me bailed...personally, I have a hunger and thirst to know all I can know about God and I'm not ready to bail when it gets a little uncomfortable...but never mind, if me giving a blessing to someone is condescending, I am done. Seriously, I'm finished if that is what condescending is. Not a definition I agree with, but if you all think that is what it means, this is not the thread for me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Incorrect. They ARE believers. The key to understanding is in the phrase "their last state". It does NOT refer to hell or LOF. It refers to WHEN they returned to their vomit. As believers, new creatures, children of God, they will face His hand of discipline for their actions. So, there "last state" in this life will definitely be worse than their "first state" as believers."

was going to point out how you did not reflect on the word return

I have no idea what "reflect on" means, but I certainly acknowledged the word. So, what's your problem?

but figured you would just make excuses anyway, so I'll ignore your obvious fail here and ask the question below.

There were no excuses, so this must just be another lie. How is that acting Christian like?

please show passages that show that a new believer is not disciplined by God...thanks in advance.

No wonder there is no progress in any of these discussions. My post was completely misunderstood.

The discipline I was talking about was the discipline inferred in 2 Pet 2 for those believers who RETURNED to their vomit (former lifestyle).

Any believer who gets out of line should expect God's discipline. How my post was twisted into the mess you've provided here is amazing.

 

[Viren]

awesome, than you should be providing me with an sound hermeneutical discussion on Heb. 6 and other such passages that I offered up for sound hermeneutical discussion and got the ball rolling on but no one would finish to it's completion....excited to get back to the topic in hand as it applies to what God intends us to understand.

Heb. 6 just means that once you're born again it's a done deal. You're a completely new creation created by God to do good works that God planned in advance for you to do and you were made holy by the death of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all. (Hebrews 10:10)

You can't go in and out of salvation because go can't be born over and over.

If you believe that you can fall away it just means that you don't believe that you were born again as a new creation that can't die. You doubt whether you're really born again so it really comes down to doubt.

 

[razzelflabben]

Well, this is interesting. If your side agrees that all believers are secure in Christ, why does your side believe that salvation can be lost? That really doesn't make sense. Please clarify, as your statement here contradicts your position.

only thing I'm going to address...last time I will explain it, if you misrepresent it again, I don't know, it's just more of the same.

NO one can SNATCH us from God.
WE have a GUARANTEE that we can go the bank on (aka HS...the question is about when we push that HS out of our lives, not the guarantee while He is there)
WE are GUARANTEED salvation and can rest secure as long as we endure, persevere, remain in, etc. HIM.

You see, real security in our salvation is not about us at all, it's about God and His ability to NOT FAIL...we already know we can and do fail.

So this all boils down to what happens when we fail, not Can or Can't God fail...we already know with confident rest HE CANNOT FAIL.

I would say it's been a pleasure talking with you but don't want to be condescending so I won't say any more about that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

interesting take given the passages I provided, can you show me how to make your case in scripture? thanks in advance, I love learning from anyone who can show me the heart of God through His word.

I find this statement rather hard to accept, given what Jesus promised in John 10:28,29, and to which you've agreed with, yet still holding onto the view that one can lose their salvation.

You've been shown the very heart of God, yet still hold onto a position that is contradicted by the heart of God.

Either your statement here is insincere, or your sincerity is grossly misguided.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If they really believed and were new creations why would they return to their vomit?

Because of rebellion. Because of their natural-born sin nature, which no believer loses during their life on earth. Because of a lot of reasons.

The question demonstrattes a serious misunderstanding of Scripture.

They really did believe, and they really did RETURN to their former lifestyle. And that state of being is definitely WORSE than when they first believed.

How does this explanation not fit the text?

 

[Hammster]

a already posted that and showed how it agrees with what I said about hell being punishing but not our punishment for sin...in fact, let's add a passage to this, Jude 1:7 was already entered into the discussion as well, but look at this Habakkuk 1:13 Your eyes are too pure to look on evil, and You cannot tolerate wrongdoing. So why do You tolerate those who are treacherous? Why are You silent while one who is wicked swallows up one who is more righteous than himself?


God is so pure, so holy that He can't even look at evil...what then would make us think that hell is a punishment for some crime we commit when sin itself removes us from the fellowship we were created to have with God.

But let's go further yet into the word, shall we? Look at the old testament animal sacrifices...Heb. tells us that Jesus is the replacement for the animal sacrifice, a one time sacrifice for our sins. Okay, (if you want that passage, ask) so if hell is the punishment for sin, rather than the consequence, then how was an animal blood placed over the sins of man (see mercy seat) able to bring about fellowship. It wasn't the sacrifice alone when you study the OT, but the placing the blood over the sins of man.

Now, this is important to our current discussion because, it is the sins of man that remove us from fellowship. If we aren't willing to allow Jesus blood to cover our sins, what happens? We are out of fellowship, right? But what is eternal life but fellowship with God? Yet Habakkuk tells us that God is too pure to be able to be in the presence of sin...so where does that sin go when we die? Certainly not to heaven and if we haven't been separated from our sin, what happens to us when we hold it tighter than we hold God?

Now to further complicate your position, look at Gen. 3 and compare the statement about death being the result of sin and the punishments given as a result of sin....all of the scriptural evidence makes it hard to hold that death is the punishment for our sins and not just a punishing consequence.

But please, continue to make your case through scripture....I do love a good biblical challenge.see above...you still have to make your case in scripture since the passage you presented makes my case even stronger. In fact, let's look at the LExicon and quote it so as to be on the same page....Thayers Lexicon, straight from the Stong's website says this, [cut and pasted] correction, punishment, penalty


Iow's by pure definition either of us could be right, so the totality of scripture is vital to a true understanding of God's intent. We will look at the wording of the Jude passage if you think it is important to your making your case.

That was a lot of posting just to ignore Jesus. That's your issue, not mine. He's clear why they go into everlasting punishment. It's because of sin. Since you've determined to misinterpret what He said, I doubt any further discussion will be beneficial.

 

[razzelflabben]

Any believer who gets out of line should expect God's discipline. How my post was twisted into the mess you've provided here is amazing.

humm....I really must have miss understood, cause you said that the new believer is not disciplined and so I asked you to please show passages that show that a new believer is not disciplined by God...thanks in advance.

Notice the word new there, it was there because of your claim that new believers were not disciplined...I guess I shouldn't have read the word new and just made assumptions about your post...wait, I'm not suppose to assume what you are saying...I can't win...if I don't assume I am misunderstanding, if I do assume I'm a poor poster...I guess that means we are done as well.

 

[razzelflabben]

Heb. 6 just means that once you're born again it's a done deal. You're a completely new creation created by God to do good works that God planned in advance for you to do and you were made holy by the death of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all. (Hebrews 10:10)

You can't go in and out of salvation because go can't be born over and over.

If you believe that you can fall away it just means that you don't believe that you were born again as a new creation that can't die. You doubt whether you're really born again so it really comes down to doubt.

well there are lots of people who have studied the passage in depth that would disagree with you, myself included, which is why I asked for an in depth study from those that think it says something else. But asking for that study is apparently condescending and assumptive especially when the other side gives up just at the point in which disagreement is found. Thus, I guess we are done as well.

 

[FreeGrace2]

only thing I'm going to address...last time I will explain it, if you misrepresent it again, I don't know, it's just more of the same.

Since your view is loss of salvation, I've misrepresented nothing. Your charge here is fallacious.

NO one can SNATCH us from God.
WE have a GUARANTEE that we can go the bank on (aka HS...the question is about when we push that HS out of our lives, not the guarantee while He is there)
WE are GUARANTEED salvation and can rest secure as long as we endure, persevere, remain in, etc. HIM.

Ah, "as long as we….." The catch. It's all up to us, in the end. We are the ones who "really hold our salvation". Not God.

I suppose the ourtageous arrogance of this view just doesn't occur to some.

As if one does hold their own salvation.

You see, real security in our salvation is not about us at all, it's about God and His ability to NOT FAIL...we already know we can and do fail.

But, since your view is that salvation CAN be lost, your view is tantamount to God HAVING FAILED to hold onto some of His children. How is that not absolutely clear to your side?

If your claim that God's ability "to NOT FAIL" is really believed, then your view is STILL contradicted.

So this all boils down to what happens when we fail, not Can or Can't God fail...we already know with confident rest HE CANNOT FAIL.

Of course all believers will fail. So your view would naturally lead to the conclusion that all believers are going to go to hell.

Your claim that God CANNOT FAIL is quite insincere, since He holds us, and not the other way around. And your word games about enduring, etc reveals your real position: we hold on to our own salvation, so that if we fail (and all of us do every day) we lose salvation.

How can you not realize that your position is that when we fail we lose salvation? How many times have you lost your salvation, since we all know that sinless perfection is not possible this side of eternity?

I would say it's been a pleasure talking with you but don't want to be condescending so I won't say any more about that.

This kind of extreme snarkiness only illuminate your mental attitude quite clearly.

 

[FreeGrace2]

humm....I really must have miss understood, cause you said that the new believer is not disciplined and so I asked you to please show passages that show that a new believer is not disciplined by God...thanks in advance.

Notice the word new there, it was there because of your claim that new believers were not disciplined...I guess I shouldn't have read the word new and just made assumptions about your post...wait, I'm not suppose to assume what you are saying...I can't win...if I don't assume I am misunderstanding, if I do assume I'm a poor poster...I guess that means we are done as well.

My statement was clear enough. I'm quite sorry that it wasn't clear in your view. Which does explain quite a bit.

 

[razzelflabben]

I find this statement rather hard to accept, given what Jesus promised in John 10:28,29, and to which you've agreed with, yet still holding onto the view that one can lose their salvation.

You've been shown the very heart of God, yet still hold onto a position that is contradicted by the heart of God.

Either your statement here is insincere, or your sincerity is grossly misguided.

I just want to point out that I asked for you to make your point in scripture in which the only passage you offered was John 10 which has already been shown to be interpreted different ways and no counter was offered from the osaser as to how the non osaser interpreted it other than to say "no sir"

Maybe this will help you understand why I won't accept "no sir" as an answer. Just so you know me better, nothing more or less.

Not only have i been passionate about knowing all of God that I can know from the time I was about 6 years old, but in the last oh 10 years give or take, God has put me in a position in which it is common for me to spend 8-12 hours a day either studying scripture or teaching what He has shown me. This is on an average 6 day week, though sometimes more or less. For me, if I am not in the word, I feel like I am starving to death, literally that is what it feels like. I never assume to know anything about the word of God or about God in general, which is why I never lack for something to study. Now, in order for me to be sure that I am not misinterpreting the word of God, I put in place 5 tests to insure that I am not being mislead by myself or any other voice. 5 different test to make sure that I get it right. One of those tests is the totality of scripture. Because of this, it is very common for me to study 700 or more passages in a given day, all looking into the same thing I am studying at the moment. From that, I look for consistency in what it is saying about the topic at hand. For this reason, I demand and offer supporting passages for any claim that is made. there are other safeguards but that one seems to be making some here uncomfortable enough with me to accuse me of things that are unflattering.

Now, you know more about me and why I insist on scripture...apparently, this isn't the thread for someone like me who is so determined to know God that I will go to such lengths to discover Him...

Blessing would be placed here, but don't want to fall into the condescending posting I have been accused of.

 

[razzelflabben]

That was a lot of posting just to ignore Jesus. That's your issue, not mine. He's clear why they go into everlasting punishment. It's because of sin. Since you've determined to misinterpret what He said, I doubt any further discussion will be beneficial.

what part of what I said suggests, states or even hints that people don't go to hell because of sin? Seriously, I recall saying just the opposite and since you don't misrepresent anyone I need to know where you read that, so I can avoid the communication errors in the future.

In fact, the very discussion seems to be about consequence vs. punishment for sin, which would indicate both of us are saying that one goes to hell because of sin, so I really need to know where you get the idea that I don't think hell is because of sin....

 

[seekingsolace]

okay...we are talking about those who are not remaining in the faith by their own choice. the passages I posted all said that it is the one who endures that receives the crown of life...how are they not related? Hum.....If those that endure receive the crown of Life, in scripture, another term for eternal life which is generally assumed to be salvation though I don't totally agree that they are one and the same....then these passages every one apply and claiming they don't is to show a lack of understanding for what I and others are saying

I can't even remember the original passages as they are miles back now. Was our discussion about those eternal life or falling away? if any passages I have said are unrelated then it would have been from the post prior and the principle set out in it. Where has the crown of Life come into this now? Remember I am probably ten or so pages back by now. I would rather not drag up passages to reiterate a point about being unrelated, lets just move on from that. Like I said in my post, I'll reinforce an idea if I think it's been ignored.

wow, so now a blessing is condescending...see this is what I'm talking about. I have gotten in the habit of blessing people, a sincere and genuine blessing, in fact, I have lots of people tell me how encouraged they are by those blessings, but you find them condescending...and why, because you assumed that in that blessing I was making accusations that were not there nor in my heart.

Remember context, if I had just said to you for example 'everything you say is false, you have no understanding, you are dishonest, then follow up with 'may you not lean on your own understanding, but His' - what does that imply?

Look, I don't really care what you think of me or my style of discussion, that is irrelevant, but this kind of false accusation is what I am beyond tired of in this thread. Nothing in that suggested or hinted that I was accusing anyone of anything, I simply gave you a blessing even though your posts had been unkind to me. Nothing more or less. If you want to take that as an insult, I guess you are allowed to do so, but I would not want to explain to God why I took a blessing as an insult, so maybe distance would be the best thing here.

Really, your view is a bit skewed. Not once have I claimed that you were trying to appear 'honest' among many other insults; there's no smoke without fire. Why can't you leave a message on a kind note?

 

[seekingsolace]

actually, HEb. 6 was just to the point of disagreement and everyone but me bailed...personally, I have a hunger and thirst to know all I can know about God and I'm not ready to bail when it gets a little uncomfortable...but never mind, if me giving a blessing to someone is condescending, I am done. Seriously, I'm finished if that is what condescending is. Not a definition I agree with, but if you all think that is what it means, this is not the thread for me.

Why are you still going on about a blessing? I did in fact tell you I didn't have time to go back into Hebrews at the time, and suggested messaging me that I can reply when I have time. Once again you are assuming others are 'bailing' because they are 'uncomfortable', you said yourself you have plenty of time to study Gods words, not everyone is blessed with that current situation to reply on demand.

Listen, whether your blessing was genuine or not, I am sorry if it offended you. I do not want you to bear any resentment, like I've said multiple times I'm more than happy to address passages when I have time, just simply forward them on. It's your decision, the offers there.

 

[Hammster]

what part of what I said suggests, states or even hints that people don't go to hell because of sin? Seriously, I recall saying just the opposite and since you don't misrepresent anyone I need to know where you read that, so I can avoid the communication errors in the future.

In fact, the very discussion seems to be about consequence vs. punishment for sin, which would indicate both of us are saying that one goes to hell because of sin, so I really need to know where you get the idea that I don't think hell is because of sin....

I'm sure you believe that people go to hell because of sin. You just deny that it's God punishing them for it.

 

[razzelflabben]

Since your view is loss of salvation, I've misrepresented nothing. Your charge here is fallacious.


Ah, "as long as we….." The catch. It's all up to us, in the end. We are the ones who "really hold our salvation". Not God.

I suppose the ourtageous arrogance of this view just doesn't occur to some.

As if one does hold their own salvation.


But, since your view is that salvation CAN be lost, your view is tantamount to God HAVING FAILED to hold onto some of His children. How is that not absolutely clear to your side?

hum...where did I say anything at all like that? Please specify so I can improve on my communication skills. In fact, I thought I was very clearly stating that God cannot fail to hold us secure in His hands....I was pretty clear I said that, maybe the computer is showing me one thing I say and it isn't coming through to your computer....

If your claim that God's ability "to NOT FAIL" is really believed, then your view is STILL contradicted.


Of course all believers will fail. So your view would naturally lead to the conclusion that all believers are going to go to hell.

again, I don't know where you would possibly get this idea from what I have told you. So since you aren't misrepresenting anyone and I apparently am, please show specifically where I have ever said that one can lose their salvation because one sins...I recall several posts where I said just the opposite and one in particular where I talked about a passage in James about not all sin leading to death and asked you to comment on it, but I apparently missed your comment and you were kind enough to just correct me rather than to show me the post I missed, so I need you to specify where you are getting this idea. I really do want to improve, so that my life is above reproach and is so righteous that the worldly will rejoice in the goodness of the Lord. (I Peter 2:12)

Your claim that God CANNOT FAIL is quite insincere, since He holds us, and not the other way around. And your word games about enduring, etc reveals your real position: we hold on to our own salvation, so that if we fail (and all of us do every day) we lose salvation.

I showed passages (I remember doing so) that tell us to remain in Christ, to continue to abide in Him....please show where these passages say that we are not to abide in Him that we are NOT to remain in Him as He is in us. Thanks...

How can you not realize that your position is that when we fail we lose salvation? How many times have you lost your salvation, since we all know that sinless perfection is not possible this side of eternity?

um...where do you get that sinless perfection is necessary for salvation? I don't know how to answer unless I understand the question, of which I don't. Please explain where you get the idea that sinless perfection is necessary for salvation? I guess if you are talking about Christ's sinless perfection, yes it is necessary, but the way I read your post, you seem to be indicating that you think we have to be sinless perfection, which is a foreign concept to me and every non OSAS er I know, so please help me understand how this is not a misrepresentation of what has been said...specifics please.

 

[razzelflabben]

My statement was clear enough. I'm quite sorry that it wasn't clear in your view. Which does explain quite a bit.

so please clarify it, when you said that the new believer is not disciplined, what did you mean?

 

[seekingsolace]

only thing I'm going to address...last time I will explain it, if you misrepresent it again, I don't know, it's just more of the same.

NO one can SNATCH us from God.
WE have a GUARANTEE that we can go the bank on (aka HS...the question is about when we push that HS out of our lives, not the guarantee while He is there)
WE are GUARANTEED salvation and can rest secure as long as we endure, persevere, remain in, etc. HIM.

You see, real security in our salvation is not about us at all, it's about God and His ability to NOT FAIL...we already know we can and do fail.

So this all boils down to what happens when we fail, not Can or Can't God fail...we already know with confident rest HE CANNOT FAIL.

I would say it's been a pleasure talking with you but don't want to be condescending so I won't say any more about that.

But you have just said it's God that maintains us, so it's not down to the person. If God has decreed a promise, it is certain to be fulfilled. There is no scriptural evidence of being able to 'push' the Holy Spirit out. In the Old Testament it was not always permanent, but everytime in new scripture it indwells the believer and remains until redemption. It is in fact Gods promise, which as you know cannot be undone. As for a human remaining, it's God that frees us from the bondage to sin; helps us resist temptation, protects us from evil, opens our hearts and minds, gives us understanding, disciplines us and so on. At the point of believing you are saved, correct? So if you are sealed with the HS from the moment you believe, - you are sealed , only God can break that seal, and He told us not until redemption will that be done.

 

[razzelflabben]

I can't even remember the original passages as they are miles back now. Was our discussion about those eternal life or falling away? if any passages I have said are unrelated then it would have been from the post prior and the principle set out in it. Where has the crown of Life come into this now? Remember I am probably ten or so pages back by now. I would rather not drag up passages to reiterate a point about being unrelated, lets just move on from that. Like I said in my post, I'll reinforce an idea if I think it's been ignored.

the quote was made from these passages I am referring to, but no matter, you have made your beliefs about discussing it from scripture clear. No worries. For anyone interested, they stand, for those not...whatever

Remember context, if I had just said to you for example 'everything you say is false, you have no understanding, you are dishonest, then follow up with 'may you not lean on your own understanding, but His' - what does that imply?

that you are seeking to know His will and I am blessing you that you might accomplish that...you act as if the HS is not working in my life to not be vengeful and aggressive or to desire peace rather than quarreling...yet from day one, I have called for peace. What would make you think I am living in the power of the world and not in the power of the living God? Isn't that an accusation of character that requires assumptions rather than taking a post at face value? Oh well...enough is enough...moving on.