Discussion Cakes,lawsuits,and a Holy Spirit filled life.

[Aldebaran]

I believe homosexuality is wrong, but to say there is no hope for someone who identified themself as homosexual is the same as saying there is no hope for someone who is an alcoholic. The temptation is not a sin. The acting upon it is.

Well, the act of 2 homosexuals getting "married" to each other is not a temptation they're experiencing when it comes to homosexuality. They are not only acting upon it, but are doing so to the point of making it official, while at the same time calling it equal with the traditional marriage as instituted by God. Should a Christian who is being asked to bake a cake commemorating such a thing be looked down upon by other Christians for having a conscience about that, and then acting accordingly?

 

[All4Christ]

No, I don't think they should. However, the poster I responded to said that homosexuals are not going to be in heaven - that is what I was referring to in my response.

I'm on the side of the fence where I don't think it is wrong to avoid baking a cake, though I understand the difficulty of being consistent. I won't look down upon someone who does that by any means. However - people do need to be loving and pray that all are reconciled with God. The way the poster responded seemed to be opposite to the approach love. I hope I am wrong with my interpretation of it, as is easy to do on an online forum.

Well, the act of 2 homosexuals getting "married" to each other is not a temptation they're experiencing when it comes to homosexuality. They are not only acting upon it, but are doing so to the point of making it official, while at the same time calling it equal with the traditional marriage as instituted by God. Should a Christian who is being asked to bake a cake commemorating such a thing be looked down upon by other Christians for having a conscience about that, and then acting accordingly?

 

[Aldebaran]

No, I don't think they should. However, the poster I responded to said that homosexuals are not going to be in heaven - that is what I was referring to in my response.

I'm on the side of the fence where I don't think it is wrong to avoid baking a cake, though I understand the difficulty of being consistent. I won't look down upon someone who does that by any means. However - people do need to be loving and pray that all are reconciled with God. The way the poster responded seemed to be opposite to the approach love. I hope I am wrong with my interpretation of it, as is easy to do on an online forum.

For the record, I'm all for loving and praying that gays (and all other sinners) be reconciled to God. It seems that it almost every thread on this topic, it is assumed that we either cater to the demands gay people make upon us to promote homosexuality, or else we're not loving them and leading them to God. Personally, I believe we should love people and lead them to God, AND stand up to sin by refusing to participate in it, especially if the Christian individual has a conscience about it in a particular situation.

I guess this could be interpreted as "hate the sin, love the sinner", but that phrase is getting rather cliche'.

 

[All4Christ]

For the record, I'm all for loving and praying that gays (and all other sinners) be reconciled to God. It seems that it almost every thread on this topic, it is assumed that we either cater to the demands gay people make upon us to promote homosexuality, or else we're not loving them and leading them to God. Personally, I believe we should love people and lead them to God, AND stand up to sin by refusing to participate in it, especially if the Christian individual has a conscience about it in a particular situation.

I guess this could be interpreted as "hate the sin, love the sinner", but that phrase is getting rather cliche'.

Agreed 100%.

 

[Alithis]

So what's the best solution as a Christian? Go against his own conscience and cater to a homosexual wedding even if his own conscience says to him, "This is wrong, and I shouldn't have anything to do with it"? Is that how Christians are expected to live according to other Christians? It may be what the world wants from us, but I don't think Christ told us to live according to the world's standards.

the evidence in that situation .. and its results , display that they were probably not acting on godly conscience but on human carnal judgment .
since it has bot been fully clarified yet .. it probably needs to be . did they refuse to make a cake of adult sexual theme ?..or did they refuse to make a cake for a ssm wedding ? the first is not any form of judgmental discrimination.. the second .. is .
which was it ?

 

[Alithis]

No, actually if I'm running a business and I detect danger to that business I have the right to decide what constitutes an "family emergency" and what does not since I'm leading my business.

I'm not required by God to share all of my thoughts with others, meaning I do not have to explain to the gay peoples WHY there is a family emergency and we have to close temporarily.

Your moral compass is broken if you choose to be in agreement with gay peoples getting married because serving them in that capacity is a measure of agreement and God said those that are friendly with the world are enemies of God (James 4:4) and God is not going to allow His enemies in to Heaven.

So, before you walk in agreement with gay peoples and embrace their lifestyle as being A-OK, you might want to consider that God rejects this lifestyle as being an obamanation as there will be no gay peoples in Heaven.

ok this is a twisting of words to self justify your own action by misrepresenting what others are saying .
no one has said any one else agrees with sin . but as already well covered . if we take such a stance against one particular sin but not against all other sin.. then we simply display that we have a chosen bias against one particular sin .
we hate the sin and not the sinner not because we excuse the sinner but because we know what damage ALL sin ..including lies and deceit does in the lives of all people . it reaps death . the scriptures also state that man is a prisoner to sin..
we are not speaking of the extreme few gay activists who may or may not have knowingly rejected Christ . we are speaking about the many who have grown up without the gospel and been taught a lie that it is not an abnormality ..but dont know know better and have also been taught .. by the actions of the few false christian haters . that Christianity hates them and so ,to their mind ,by association , does God . yet the word of God says that while we were yet dead in our sin Christ loved us and laid down his life for us .. and THAT- is the attitude of unconditional love we must display to all mankind .. especially our enemy for the lord told us plain and simple to LOVE our enemy .. not to judge him/her ..judgement is coming ,that is up to the lord . not Us

 

[Aldebaran]

the evidence in that situation .. and its results , display that they were probably not acting on godly conscience but on human carnal judgment .
since it has bot been fully clarified yet .. it probably needs to be . did they refuse to make a cake of adult sexual theme ?..or did they refuse to make a cake for a ssm wedding ? the first is not any form of judgmental discrimination.. the second .. is .
which was it ?

If they had decided to make the cake because they wanted acceptance from the world and didn't want to "rock the boat" by living by their conscience, THAT would be human carnal judgement.

 

[StephanieSomer]

No, actually if I'm running a business and I detect danger to that business I have the right to decide what constitutes an "family emergency" and what does not since I'm leading my business.

I'm not required by God to share all of my thoughts with others, meaning I do not have to explain to the gay peoples WHY there is a family emergency and we have to close temporarily.

Your moral compass is broken if you choose to be in agreement with gay peoples getting married because serving them in that capacity is a measure of agreement and God said those that are friendly with the world are enemies of God (James 4:4) and God is not going to allow His enemies in to Heaven.

So, before you walk in agreement with gay peoples and embrace their lifestyle as being A-OK, you might want to consider that God rejects this lifestyle as being an obamanation as there will be no gay peoples in Heaven.

I'm betting there will be quite a few gay people in heaven. I also am quite certain that a LOT of pew warmers won't be.

 

[StephanieSomer]

So what's the best solution as a Christian? Go against his own conscience and cater to a homosexual wedding even if his own conscience says to him, "This is wrong, and I shouldn't have anything to do with it"? Is that how Christians are expected to live according to other Christians? It may be what the world wants from us, but I don't think Christ told us to live according to the world's standards.

What the customer is doing may BE wrong. But the shop owner isn't participating in any way by doing business with them. If a person's conscience says, "This is wrong, and I shouldn't have anything to do with it.", their first duty is to see exactly what Scripture TELLS them to do, or not do. Simply choosing to have nothing whatsoever to do with the person is NOT what Scripture instructs. I do realize it is a fine line of demarcation. But, there IS a line. Operating by conscience apart from explicit Scriptural command, isn't acting by Scriptural wisdom. It is acting by one's own wisdom. It isn't God's way. It is man's way. There is no Scriptural command or instruction to do as your stance would have you do. There is also no Scriptural pattern that says that. There ARE Scriptural patterns which demonstrate doing exactly the opposite of what you believe, several of them. And, there is at least one verse, that I know of, which instructs us NOT to refrain from contact with outsiders. Whatever their flavor of sin happens to be makes no difference. ALL have sinned, even me, even you. We are all EQUALLY guilty. The real problem with the stance you are taking is that you are acting on a specific sin, which very strongly indicates that other sins would be "acceptable". THAT is sin. And, when you differentiate between how you respond to people based on their particular flavor of sin, it is impossible to make the stand that you are NOT being judgmental, which we are commanded NOT to do with unbelievers. You may choose to call it "love", but it isn't. You are making a specific determination on a specific sin of which someone else may be guilty. And you are pronouncing a punishment of sorts by taking the stand that they may not have anything to do with you, since you are separating yourself from them. We ARE to separate ourselves from the world, but NOT the people in the world. It is not yet the time of judgment. It is now the time of grace and spreading of the Gospel. There WILL be a time of judgment, but it is not now.

 

[StephanieSomer]

Well, the act of 2 homosexuals getting "married" to each other is not a temptation they're experiencing when it comes to homosexuality. They are not only acting upon it, but are doing so to the point of making it official, while at the same time calling it equal with the traditional marriage as instituted by God. Should a Christian who is being asked to bake a cake commemorating such a thing be looked down upon by other Christians for having a conscience about that, and then acting accordingly?

If their actions depart from explicit Scriptural commands and instead rely on implicit interpretations, absolutely!

 

[StephanieSomer]

For the record, I'm all for loving and praying that gays (and all other sinners) be reconciled to God. It seems that it almost every thread on this topic, it is assumed that we either cater to the demands gay people make upon us to promote homosexuality, or else we're not loving them and leading them to God. Personally, I believe we should love people and lead them to God, AND stand up to sin by refusing to participate in it, especially if the Christian individual has a conscience about it in a particular situation.

I guess this could be interpreted as "hate the sin, love the sinner", but that phrase is getting rather cliche'.

If I'm not mistaken, most people would define participating in homosexuality as requiring you to remove your clothes. It is a HUGE stretch to try and make the baking and selling of a cake as "participation". And, no, you wouldn't be celebrating the marriage either by baking the cake. The celebrants EAT the cake, not bake it.

Actually, what you espouse isn't "hate the sin, love the sinner". It is "hate the sin, avoid the sinner". If anyone can avoid sinners with a clear conscience, I have serious doubts about the health of their conscience.

 

[StephanieSomer]

LOL! Oh yes it is!

It surely identifies those who find repulsive garbage as in any way redeemable humor. That is sick, beyond measure.

 

[StephanieSomer]

No, actually if I'm running a business and I detect danger to that business I have the right to decide what constitutes an "family emergency" and what does not since I'm leading my business.

I'm not required by God to share all of my thoughts with others, meaning I do not have to explain to the gay peoples WHY there is a family emergency and we have to close temporarily.

Your moral compass is broken if you choose to be in agreement with gay peoples getting married because serving them in that capacity is a measure of agreement and God said those that are friendly with the world are enemies of God (James 4:4) and God is not going to allow His enemies in to Heaven.

So, before you walk in agreement with gay peoples and embrace their lifestyle as being A-OK, you might want to consider that God rejects this lifestyle as being an obamanation as there will be no gay peoples in Heaven.

It is clear you do not understand the concept of "friendship with the world". The "world", in the Scriptural sense, isn't people, it's a system of philosophy. You have decided that it is people and use that verse, incorrectly, to justify to yourself your prejudicial rejection of people who are made in the image of God. Ironically, all of the suggested scenarios you have posted are exactly how that system would advise one to act. Your suggestions aren't a separation from the world. They are prime examples of how that world lives. It isn't necessary for you to explain yourself to me, or anyone else here. But, if you think you will not be required to give an accounting of why you act this way towards those who bear the image of God, you are hugely mistaken.

I suggest you do a study on WHO the Samaritans were, and why the Jews rejected them. Googling isn't study, btw. Actually take the time to understand it. Christ did NOT reject the Samaritans. It is very significant that the relationship and the animosity between the Jews and the Samaritans is essentially identical to that between "christians" and gay people. It was wrong then. It is still just as wrong. It is NOT how the Spirit of Christ responds to people.

 

[Farm Truck]

to say there is no hope for someone who identified themself as homosexual is the same as saying there is no hope for someone who is an alcoholic.

Who said anything about there being no hope for the gay peoples???

They decide whether they want to please the flesh or turn from their sin and walk with Jesus.

Bottom line, if the world is going to start destroying Christians financially for standing up for the ways of the Lord, then we need to find a work around.

Telling the gay peoples "I have an emergency to attend to, so I have to close the store right now...sorry" is not lying because gay peoples have an agenda so when they come to your shop it actually is an emergency!

It is clear you do not understand the concept of "friendship with the world"

I understand it just fine. God says do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers as in don't be in agreement with them.

Just because I'm not in agreement with them and coddle / enable their sinful lifestyle does not mean I don't love them. Quite the contrary, because true love will tell people that Jesus has made reconciliation with the Creator available to them but it requires them to repent of their sin.

That's why the church is so weak in the end times... they are too busy being so friendly with the world that if Christianity was outlawed... the authorities wouldn't have enough evidence to convict them of being a Christian!

 

[Biblicist]

Telling the gay peoples "I have an emergency to attend to, so I have to close the store right now...sorry" is not lying because gay peoples have an agenda so when they come to your shop it actually is an emergency!

Lying is lying and nothing else. If some feel the need to resort to this type of debase behaviour and where their prepared to post their views on a public forum, then I would suggest that a serious rethink might be in order.

 

[StephanieSomer]

That's why the church is so weak in the end times... they are too busy being so friendly with the world that if Christianity was outlawed... the authorities wouldn't have enough evidence to convict them of being a Christian!

It is my own belief that the reason behind the weakness of the Church is their lack of faith. And, that lack of faith is directly tied to their refusal to study God's Word. Instead, they insist someone else do it for them and handfeed them. Faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the Word of God. It doesn't come from sitting in a pew and listening to what someone else tells you the Scripture says, or googling somebody else's interpretations. I'm NOT against preaching or teaching. But, it is God's command that we each be able to discern God's Word. When we allow ourselves a diet of only preaching and teaching, we are missing a vast portion of what God intends for us to have. Without that portion, faith dwindles, and power is lost.

Being friendly with the unsaved is not being friendly with the world. It's quite apparent that you still think "world" means people. It doesn't.

 

[Farm Truck]

Lying is lying and nothing else. If some feel the need to resort to this type of debase behaviour and where their prepared to post their views on a public forum, then I would suggest that a serious rethink might be in order.

You do not know whether I have an emergency or not so it's your erroneous opinion whether I would be lying or not. God's wisdom allows us to deal wisely in all the affairs of life and allowing a gay lawsuit to destroy your business financially is just stupid.

The "emergency" I would be referring to is the fact that there is a gay person with the likely agenda to attempt to destroy my business financially and the Holy Spirit would be telling me to not deal with this person because they bring danger to me and my family financially.

Maybe you are a little slow when it comes to legal issues and to the leading of the Holy Spirit because He does show us things to come, and this is what is coming to the Body of Christ in the US... persecution! So, those that listen to the Holy Spirit are going to carefully pick their battles and going forward on this planet you cannot win against the gay peoples in court or in public opinion.

So, if you believe the God you serve is telling you to serve the gay peoples and enable / contribute to their obamanation, then you certainly have the right to do just that. Hope that works out for ya!

Being friendly with the unsaved is not being friendly with the world. It's quite apparent that you still think "world" means people. It doesn't.

No, the "world" means this worldly system we live in and the sin that it represents. If you desire to be in agreement with sin, and be soft on sin, then the world will have no respect for you as a Christian and you lose your witness among those that see you fail to stand for righteousness.

I'm not advocating being mean to people or trying to damage them in some way... however I am advocating that my personal relationship with Jesus does come before people.

Putting people before the Lord is idolatry and Jesus said in the Book of Rev that idolators will have their part in the lake o fire. It's time to be God pleasers, not men pleasers!

 

[All4Christ]

Who said anything about there being no hope for the gay peoples???

They decide whether they want to please the flesh or turn from their sin and walk with Jesus.

Your previous post said that. Your response above said that there will be no homosexual individuals in heaven. My contention is that identifying as being gay is not the sinful part of it, but the acting upon it.

The time I worry most about someone who is homosexual - or who struggles with any sin - is when they no longer see it as a sin and / or willfully continue without trying to stop it. The key here is that my concern with this is for everyone who sins and doesn't confess their sins and try to turn away from it.. I'm still going to try to be loving with everyone though.

 

[Farm Truck]

According to God's Word, if one does not repent from their sin and receive cleansing by the Blood of Jesus... they are guilty of their sin regardless of what that sin may be which includes other sin than just being gay.

My contention is that identifying as being gay is not the sinful part of it

You are wrong! If you do not "identify" with what Jesus Christ paid for at the Cross... you will not be attending the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Apparently, you are just a hair from accepting homosexuality as being A-OK and should go back to God's Word and allow the Holy Spirit to school you on God's way of thinking and put down the wisdom of man that you have taken on concerning this subject.

 

[All4Christ]

According to God's Word, if one does not repent from their sin and receive cleansing by the Blood of Jesus... they are guilty of their sin regardless of what that sin may be which includes other sin than just being gay.




You are wrong! If you do not "identify" with what Jesus Christ paid for at the Cross... you will not be attending the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Apparently, you are just a hair from accepting homosexuality as being A-OK and should go back to God's Word and allow the Holy Spirit to school you on God's way of thinking and put down the wisdom of man that you have taken on concerning this subject.

I am not A-OK with homosexuality being practiced. Far from it. What I am a proponent for is for us to turn away from our sins and resist temptation. There are many people who have considered themselves to be that and are tempted by it - but choose to follow God's word instead. I admire anyone that turns away from a habitual temptation, and recognize that there is a struggle there. This does not mean that people are going to be 100% perfect immediately. It is a working out of our salvation in fear and trembling. We are told that we do what we do not want to do, but we need to stay the race and keep persevering. Do you disagree with this? Are we going to be in hell if we aren't perfect 100% of the time? We need to turn away from sin - and repent from our sin, but God is merciful and will help us up if we fall again and repent. If we are sincere in trying to be more like him, and sincere in our repentance, God will help us through our struggles with sin, no matter what they are. Most Christians I know would agree with this.

So I ask you - is someone going to hell if they are a habitual sinner in something else - but have repented and are sincerely trying to turn his / her ways around? If God expects me and everyone else to be perfect, then I am in serious trouble, as is every other human, no matter what the sin is you struggle with. When I say they identify themselves as homosexual - I mean that they identify that they are a sinner that struggles with that particular sinful behavior - and that they are bearing their cross so to speak by avoiding that sin. What is wrong with that viewpoint? How is that different than God's word teaching love, mercy, and justice?

Seriously, you have taken my words out of context. You should think about the context of the words before assuming someone is okay with something.