Bible proof that the Thief on the cross never got water baptized.

[BeyondET]

updated the OP to include the Mark account, which confirms in Mark 15:32 that the thieves reviled Jesus.

Up to a point around the sixth hour, after that one reconciled.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes it is a requirement - but after Jesus death. After Jesus death and resurrection He commanded His disciples to teach baptizing all nations, Matthew 28:19 KJV, and commanded to proclaim repentance, Luke 24:47 KJV

Mark 16:15-16 KJV
15 “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Jesus was baptized in water representing washing away sin, so our baptism in water represents our sins being washed away, our being buried with Him we receive His righteousness. If we neglect this, we will not join in the salvation offered us, nor will we receive the Holy Spirit,

When we are baptized we are buried with him, and raised with him - we are then united with Jesus, Romans 6:4-5 KJV


Jesus was still alive when the thief asked to be with Him in paradise. It was the thief’s faith that saved him. Many people who believed on Christ before He died was saved without baptism.

Luke 7:50 KJV
Luke 18:42 KJV
Matthew 8:11-13 KJV

Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized and in Acts 8 the people in Sameria were baptized but didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until Peter & John came to them from Jerusalem which was 34 miles away. So they didn’t arrive at least until the next day. What this tells us is that baptism doesn’t guarantee receiving the Holy Spirit and people have received the Holy Spirit before being baptized.

 

[Jan001]

works salvation people will say that the Thief was extra biblically water baptized by John beforehand, or believed in Jesus before. but in Matthew 27:44, Mark 15:32 the thieves both Reviled Lord Jesus Christ, cast the same in his teeth. they were clearly both unsaved. Yet we see revealed in Lukes Gospel, one of the Thieves repents (changes his mind) and calls on the name of the Lord to be saved Luke 23:39-43, and Jesus saves him.

Matthew 27:38-44

38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,

40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Mark 15:27-32

27 And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.

28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,

30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.

31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Here we see in verse 32 that the thieves did in fact revile Lord Jesus Christ.

Luke 23:39-43

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Here we see one of the thieves repented (changed his mind) and Believed on Lord Jesus, called on his name to be saved. Nothing is put in the Bible by accident, this story was clearly put in by God as a picture of salvation.

And the people who say "The thief couldn't haved been saved by faith because Jesus didn't die yet" that is false because all throughout the Old Testament we see people justified by grace through faith, calling on the name of the Lord. Abel Genesis 4:4, Noah Genesis 6:8, Abraham Genesis 15:6 . Hebrews 11 lists Abel Enoch, Sarah, Moses, Jacob, Isaac, Joseph, Gedeon, and of Barak, Samson, and of Jephthae; of David, and Samuel, as being justified by faith. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. Always. There has never been different ways of salvation, it has always been by grace through faith.

Romans 4:2-5

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I see a lot of people quote Luke 23:39-43 and rightly so, but I never see anyone bring up Matthew 27:38-44, or Mark 15:27-32 which is frustrating because one of the things works salvationists, lose your salvation people will hit you with is "Oh the Thief on the cross was saved beforehand, or water baptized beforehand" but that's biblically false and that is extra biblical nonsense.

Before Jesus died on the cross, water baptism was not necessary for salvation. The New Covenant was actually mediated by Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross. Also, the repentant thief on the cross defended Jesus to the other criminal on the cross which is called a good work. The thief also feared God and he asked Jesus to help him. Acts 26:20

Luke 23:3943 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”​

 

[biblelesson]

Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized and in Acts 8 the people in Sameria were baptized but didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until Peter & John came to them from Jerusalem which was 34 miles away. So they didn’t arrive at least until the next day. What this tells us is that baptism doesn’t guarantee receiving the Holy Spirit and people have received the Holy Spirit before being baptized.

I can’t deny scripture, but there were important reasons the Holy Spirit fell on people before they were baptized then. Also there were important reasons there were those baptized and had not received the Holy Spirit yet. But you know those reasons, so the question is why? Why are you misrepresenting the facts of the Bible, thus concealing the truth through eliminating what the Bible is really speaking about, so that your erroneous statement can look right? Why do such a thing?


If you notice, in each of the two cases, Peter was there.

The Samaritans who had received the word of God and had been baptized, prayer had not been offered for them to receive the Holy Spirit and hands had not been laid on them to receive the Holy Spirit.

And, the man Philip baptized, the process for receiving the Holy Spirit after baptism wasn’t performed. This man was from Ethiopia, and he was a eunuch. An angel appeared to Philip and the Holy Spirit guided him to this man. However after Philip baptized him, he was supernaturally caught away.

Both the Samaritan’s and the eunuch had heard the word and were baptized, but did not receive the Holy Spirit. Therefore God used Peter and John who prayed and layed hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit.

We are commanded to pray for the Holy Spirit, and through the laying on of hands, God imparts His Spirit into the spirit of the one baptized. Philip did not perform the final process of praying for the Holy Spirit and the laying on of hands: 1) repent, 2) be baptized, 3) pray for the person to receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands.
Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If you look closely a the situation with Cornelius, you will see that baptism was not the reason Peter was sent to Him. God was bringing awareness to the Jews that salvation would be offered to the gentiles. When Peter was speaking to those present, to include the Jews, the Holy Ghost fell on all of them, Acts 10:44 KJV - Jews and gentiles. This was the working of the Holy Spirit in converting the people at that time and opening the eyes of the Jews. Just like the many other examples in Act where the Holy Spirit moved and converted thousands.
This situation is the same as what happened in Acts 2:4 KJV, and Act 4:31 KJV, when the Spirit was poured out, and they spoke in tongues. These gentiles spoke in tongues also, Acts 10:46 KJV.

This situation was God revealing to Peter and the Jews present that the Gentiles would also receive salvation, so then Peter realizing God’s message, then decided to baptize those Gentiles the Holy Spirit had fallen on recognizing they could not be refused water.

But without these extraordinary circumstances, the way the Apostle baptized was: 1) repentance, 2) baptism, 3) prayer to receive the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands.

This is exactly how I was baptized along with several others, and the place was moving and shaking with the presence and power of the Holy Spirt.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Is Christian baptism optional?

The one saving baptism is needful for every believer, (1 Cor 12:13,, Galatians 3:27, Mark 18:18 and 1 Peter 3:21 )and that saving baptism is not water baptism but the baptism into Christ where we put on Christ. For by one Spirit are we ALL baptized into one body. As many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ (not water).

Paul said Christ sent him, not to baptize but to preach the gospel, (it didn't say he was "primarily" sent not to baptize, but that he was not sent to do it) this shows that water baptism is not part of the saving gospel and he defined the gospel he preached a few chapters later in 1 Cor 15:1-5. Notice that he did not include any works or water baptism or Sabbath keeping or keeping the Mosaic law or any rituals etc added to the gospel for salvation. Yes we do good works as fruit flows from being grafted in the tree. But it is God who works in us both to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work working in us that which is well pleasing in His sight through Jesus Christ.

The early Jewish believers followed the law for a long time after Christ rose and they were attached to the temple as well. We see them still keeping the diverse washings (baptismos) and carnal ordinances Hebrews 9:10) for a long time after. The Gentiles were no yo go under the law and then have to come out of it later. Paul happy that he baptized so few. And he says "lest the cross of Christ be made of no effect" The cross puts to death all works of the flesh and all dead works that we may seek to justify ourselves. He said similar to this in Galatians 6 also about circumcision, and how the ones pressing it did so as to not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ *Galatians 5:11, 6:12)

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."(1 Cor 1:17)

Paul circumcised Timothy in Acts 16 so as not to offend the Jews, Timothy was half Jewish. He seemed to condescend to their weakness for a time and yet when some wanted to circumcise Titus (a Gentile) he withstood them strongly (Galatians 2).

The question can be asked, Why did Paul circumcise Timothy if it was not sent to do so or it was not needed?

"Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek: 2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek."(Acts 16:3)

The same question can be asked why did Paul water baptize a few if Christ sent him not to baptize.

Jesus told the believers right from the start that John indeed baptized with WATER but they would be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days later.

"For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." (Acts 1"5)

So we see that Jesus shows that Johns water baptism was in the past tense. He didn't seem to continue it. And we don't see the apostles being water baptized again in the New testament. Yet they were still following Johns water baptism much later even when Peter questioning water baptized The Gentile Cornelius. We read in the next chapter of Peter then remembering the words of the Lord about John baptized (past tense) with water ...

I see water baptism as not needed at all for any believer today. I have many scriptures and discussions about this. If some want to water baptise, and do not say it is for salvation I can bear that. I have water batised some in the past until the Lord showed me these things.

Many miss the Jewish Gentile issue in the book of Acts. That many thousands of Jewish Christians were still zealous for the law and the customs and were going into the temple system and sacrificing animals etc. This can be seen in Acts 2, 15 21 etc.

If some say, "well they did it in Acts so we should to". Then I suppose we see believers sacrificing animals in Acts *Acts 21 etc), circumcising, keeping the Mosaic law with High priest and Levites and all the temple rituals and customs of the Jews, and do all the other things they did under the law as well. No we have to rightly divide the word truth. It was a time of reformation we see in the book of Acts. Jesus told the disciples that he had many things to say and to judge of them but they could not bear it at that time. He promised the Holy Ghost would guide them into all truth. We see men like Paul having the revelation of the New Covenant and the end of many things and the changes etc. He also was sent to the gentiles and we see from the large dispute in Acts 15 and then reaffirmed in Acts 21 that they did see that the gentiles were not to keep the law of moses and be circumcised.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I see water baptism as not needed at all for any believer today.

So are you saying baptism is optional?

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I see water baptism as not needed at all for any believer today.

See my OP. You may need to refresh your self on rules for interpreting Scripture.

TWO INTERPRETATIONS: “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel.”

Interpretation A: Paul is showing his ambivalence towards the practice of Christian baptism when actual water is applied to the human body with the Triune formula. In this sense, Paul is diminishing the importance of baptism, certainly separating it from the preached gospel, and showing...

www.christianforums.com

​

 

[LoveofTruth]

So are you saying baptism is optional?

Maybe you could read my response again I said it’s not needed at all, just like circumcision or animal sacrifices. But if any want to do so as a figure and not making it needful for salvation then I don’t make issue with that.

 

[LoveofTruth]

See my OP. You may need to refresh your self on rules for interpreting Scripture.

TWO INTERPRETATIONS: “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel.”

Interpretation A: Paul is showing his ambivalence towards the practice of Christian baptism when actual water is applied to the human body with the Triune formula. In this sense, Paul is diminishing the importance of baptism, certainly separating it from the preached gospel, and showing...

www.christianforums.com

​

The rule to interpret scripture is by the Spirit (1 Cor 2) according to scripture (2 Timothy 4:16) and the body ministry (Ephesians 4:26, 1 Cor 4:26-33, etc)

The rule of our faith and practice is to live in Christ as a new creation as scripture shows.

Galatians 6: 15, 16 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”(Galatians 6:16)

 

[biblelesson]

The one saving baptism is needful for every believer, (1 Cor 12:13,, Galatians 3:27, Mark 18:18 and 1 Peter 3:21 )and that saving baptism is not water baptism but the baptism into Christ where we pout on Christ. For by one Spirit are we ALL baptized into one body. As many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ (not water).

Ok, then explain the meaning of these scriptures considering Jesus commanded baptism after His death and resurrection - thus bringing in the new covenant?

Matthew 28:19-20 KJV
19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: “
20 “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

Mark 16:15-16 KJV
15 “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”
16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We know the word “baptized” in the above verses are referring to water baptism, which is confirmed by Peter when he baptized Cornelius and the other gentiles, because he said in Acts 10:47 KJV, “Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?”

Just because Paul said he was sent not to baptize, 1 Corinthians 1:17 KJV, does not mean the disciples, the other apostles, deacons, teachers, preachers, were not baptizing in Jesus name. In fact when Paul said he baptized a few, the scripture makes it clear he was talking to those Corinthians who had been baptized, 1 Corinthians 1:13-16 KJV
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

And consider this: baptism in water, which is a requirement given by Jesus, is not the same thing as baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[biblelesson]

Maybe you could read my response again I said it’s not needed at all, just like circumcision or animal sacrifices. But if any want to do so as a figure and not making it needful for salvation then I don’t make issue with that.

Yes, we are no longer under the laws of the Old Testament, and circumcising and animal sacrifices are no more. But, you cannot compare baptism with Old Testament laws. Baptism is part of the New Testament commands, and Jesus Himself commanded “water” baptism under the New Testament.

When did the New Testament end?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes, we are no longer under the laws of the Old Testament, and circumcising and animal sacrifices are no more. But, you cannot compare baptism with Old Testament laws. Baptism is part of the New Testament commands, and Jesus Himself commanded “water” baptism under the New Testament.

When did the New Testament end?

The Jewish believers for many years after Christ death and resurrection still went to the temple and sacrificed animals and kept the law zealously and circumcised and all the customs. (Acts 21). And I will say they followed Johns water baptism as we see Peter was doing in a acts 10. They also followed the Halakah law as part of the Jewish customs, which when a agent Ike was converted to the Jewish faith they circumcised them and water baptized them.

When reading the book of Acts we see that the Jewish believers were in a time of reformation and transition. It did not happen fast. The old covenant was fading away ready to vanish but it took time for them to bear it. Jesus said he had many things to say and to judge of them but they could not bear it at that time but he said the Holy Ghost would guide them into all truth.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Ok, then explain the meaning of these scriptures considering Jesus commanded baptism after His death and resurrection - thus bringing in the new covenant?

Show me “water” baptism in the text.

Paul says that the one saving baptism that all have is to be baptized into Chridt where we put on. Christ abd he said for by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body. This is a spiritual baptism into the body of Chridt or into the name of Christ. The nane neaning the character authority life virtue etc.

Matthew 28:19-20 KJV
19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: “

The teaching immerses or baptized them into the name . The name means the character life authority of the Father the Son and the Shiply Ghost.

Show me where Jesus said “water” baptize, many add the word water baptism there. But Jesus showed that Wayer baptism belonged to Johns ministry which wa finished ended past, as we see here ,

Acts 1: 5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

Notice Jesus stressed “water” and that of Johns ministry and he said he “baptized” past tense.

Mark 16:15-16 KJV
15 “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”
16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

When a person believes that is faith, they are immersed or baptized into Christ that is the grace that saves. So by grace are we saved through faith not of works.

Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter was still under the law and going to the temple where there was the entire old covenant still in place and fading away. Peter had the right words to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. But how they understood that was the issue. Peter and many Jewish believers were still attached to the temple and the law and customs . So Johns water baptism was also still very close to them. Johns water baptism was part of the diverse washings (baptismos) and carnal ordinances imposed upon the Jews until the time of reformation.

But let me say, that Peter was a mighty saint and was a wonderful believer. His examples and writings have helped believers for centuries as he walks in Christ. But all believers are growing and learning of Christ . Paul also did things that were not part of his continuing ministry like circumcising Timothy in Acts 16 , But both Peter and Paul are mighty men in the Lord.

I would never seek to lesson their witness and work. I simply point out what we see in scripture.

We know the word “baptized” in the above verses are referring to water baptism, which is confirmed by Peter when he baptized Cornelius and the other gentiles, because he said in Acts 10:47 KJV, “Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?”

Peter was still not fully understanding that he should have gone to the Gentiles, ( as it would seem to me from the scriptures) even though Jesus said so way back (Matthew 28) , so it is possible he didn’t fully understand the baptism into Christ fully either. We know this because Jesus corrected him in Acts 10 about the Gentiles and in Acts 11 about the water baptism of John being past.

But we know that Peter did finally understand the saving baptism and that it was not an outward washing with water but an inward work being in faith in Christ and his resurrection and we being risen with him and the answer of a clean conscience .(1 Pete 3:21)

Just because Paul said he was sent not to baptize, 1 Corinthians 1:17 KJV, does not mean the disciples, the other apostles, deacons, teachers, preachers, were not baptizing in Jesus name. In fact when Paul said he baptized a few, the scripture makes it clear he was talking to those Corinthians who had been baptized, 1 Corinthians 1:13-16 KJV
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Paul thanked God that he did so little of it. He seemed to see that water baptism had continued for a while even as circumcision and the law etc.

Paul also did not say God “primarily” sent me not to baptize, but he said Christ sent him not to baptize. Sone are quick to add words to scripture to make it fit their doctrine. We should not do this.

But if you read close Paul gives another reason why he withstood this, he said “lest the cross of Christ should be made if no effect” . He is saying that some seemed to trust in works to save them and to identify with carnal party making divisions. He used this similar expression in Galatians 6 about circumcision and sone pressing works lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. The cross puts to death all works in the flesh for justification before God.

Paul had to tell the sane Corinthians the gospel again that he preached .he write this in 1 Cor 15:1-5. Notice here he does not add any works or water baptism or sabbaths or circumcision or the Mosaic law etc.

And consider this: baptism in water, which is a requirement given by Jesus, is not the same thing as baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Show me the word “water” as that requirement . Yes baptism is mebtioned, but as Paul said by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body. And as many as have been baptized into Christ have put in Christ. This is the saving baptism. This is the grace of God working to immerse (baptize) us into Christ.

So the Holy Ghost baptized us into the body of Christ or in the nane of Jesus Christ and Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Ghost when we are in Him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I can’t deny scripture, but there were important reasons the Holy Spirit fell on people before they were baptized then. Also there were important reasons there were those baptized and had not received the Holy Spirit yet. But you know those reasons, so the question is why? Why are you misrepresenting the facts of the Bible, thus concealing the truth through eliminating what the Bible is really speaking about, so that your erroneous statement can look right? Why do such a thing?


If you notice, in each of the two cases, Peter was there.

The Samaritans who had received the word of God and had been baptized, prayer had not been offered for them to receive the Holy Spirit and hands had not been laid on them to receive the Holy Spirit.

And, the man Philip baptized, the process for receiving the Holy Spirit after baptism wasn’t performed. This man was from Ethiopia, and he was a eunuch. An angel appeared to Philip and the Holy Spirit guided him to this man. However after Philip baptized him, he was supernaturally caught away.

Both the Samaritan’s and the eunuch had heard the word and were baptized, but did not receive the Holy Spirit. Therefore God used Peter and John who prayed and layed hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit.

We are commanded to pray for the Holy Spirit, and through the laying on of hands, God imparts His Spirit into the spirit of the one baptized. Philip did not perform the final process of praying for the Holy Spirit and the laying on of hands: 1) repent, 2) be baptized, 3) pray for the person to receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands.
Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If you look closely a the situation with Cornelius, you will see that baptism was not the reason Peter was sent to Him. God was bringing awareness to the Jews that salvation would be offered to the gentiles. When Peter was speaking to those present, to include the Jews, the Holy Ghost fell on all of them, Acts 10:44 KJV - Jews and gentiles. This was the working of the Holy Spirit in converting the people at that time and opening the eyes of the Jews. Just like the many other examples in Act where the Holy Spirit moved and converted thousands.
This situation is the same as what happened in Acts 2:4 KJV, and Act 4:31 KJV, when the Spirit was poured out, and they spoke in tongues. These gentiles spoke in tongues also, Acts 10:46 KJV.

This situation was God revealing to Peter and the Jews present that the Gentiles would also receive salvation, so then Peter realizing God’s message, then decided to baptize those Gentiles the Holy Spirit had fallen on recognizing they could not be refused water.

But without these extraordinary circumstances, the way the Apostle baptized was: 1) repentance, 2) baptism, 3) prayer to receive the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands.

This is exactly how I was baptized along with several others, and the place was moving and shaking with the presence and power of the Holy Spirt.

There is no verse that says exactly why a person receives the indwelling Holy Spirit. I’ve never had hands laid on me and I received the Holy Spirit. What the scriptures teach us is that God decides when a person receives the Holy Spirit, not baptism or the laying on of hands. Acts 8 doesn’t tell us why the Samerians didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until they were baptized and Acts 10 doesn’t tell us why Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. So forgive me for saying so but you’re just making assumptions as to why these people did or didn’t receive the Holy Spirit at a specific time and that assumption is not supported by the text. I’m not saying your assumptions are not plausible I’m simply saying that they cannot be considered doctrinal because they’re not explicitly stated which leaves them in a category of possibility not actual undeniable fact.

 

[biblelesson]

The Jewish believers for many years after Christ death and resurrection still went to the temple and sacrificed animals and kept the law zealously and circumcised and all the customs. (Acts 21). And I will say they followed Johns water baptism as we see Peter was doing in a acts 10. They also followed the Halakah law as part of the Jewish customs, which when a agent Ike was converted to the Jewish faith they circumcised them and water baptized them.

Yes, the Jewish believers may have gone to the temple, sacrificed animals, and still kept the customs, but that was because they were unwilling to accept that the laws had ended at Jesus’s death.

It was the Jews who opposed the gospel taught by Paul, Peter and the other apostles. The Jews stoned Stephen, who had converted, for preaching the gospel. Then after Jesus appeared to Paul, and Paul started preaching the gospel, those same Jews persecuted him, stoned him, plotted to kill him, whipped him, spoke against the gospel Paul taught, etc.

Under the original laws given to the Jews, which pertains to the laws God gave to Israel, there was no water baptism as part of those laws. The Halakah law you mention is something that’s man made (made up by certain Jewish sects), and has nothing to do with God’s Old Testament laws under the old covenant given to Moses.

John’s baptism had nothing to do with man made ordinances, and if the Halakah sect joined that practice in their laws, they were practicing sacrilege, and in willful violation of God’s commands in the Bible.

John, being in the spirit of Elijah, Luke 1:17 KJV, was foretold in the book Isaiah, Isaiah 40:3 KJV, to be Christ’s forerunner. The angel Gabriel proclaimed John’s birth, Luke 1:12-13 KJV, announcing that John would “make ready a people prepared for the Lord,” Luke 1:17 KJV. Therefore John the Baptist ministry was baptism, repentance, and proclaiming that the kingdom of heaven was at hand, Matthew 3:1-2 KJV, thus pointing the Jews to the Lamb of God, who was/is the savior of the world for all who would believe. And the baptism in water that John practiced, being the forerunner of Christ, is the same baptism Jesus commanded his disciples to perform. However, what was added to Jesus baptism was the receipt of the Holy Spirit, as Peter preached, Acts 2:38 KJV, which was/is received by the laying on of hands during the baptism ceremony, Acts 19:6 KJV, also mentioned in Hebrews 6:2 KJV
“Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”
(To not get confused by the above scripture, the scripture is talking about a person who left the faith, and returning would need to start all over again - be baptized again, having hands laid on them again, etc. Paul is saying lets go on to perfection not laying again the foundation of repentance because it would be impossible to renew them, Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)

It was not until Christ death and resurrection that the Holy Spirit could be poured out on a believer, as explained by this verse,
John 7:38-39 KJV
38 “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.”
39 “(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

Jesus had to be glorified first before those baptized could receive the Holy Spirit. That’s why John the Baptist could only preach repentance and water baptism, while after Jesus death, Peter and the other disciples and apostles could preach repentance, water baptism, and the receipt of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands.

When reading the book of Acts we see that the Jewish believers were in a time of reformation and transition. It did not happen fast. The old covenant was fading away ready to vanish but it took time for them to bear it. Jesus said he had many things to say and to judge of them but they could not bear it at that time but he said the Holy Ghost would guide them into all truth.

It was not the Jews who were in a time of reformation and transition. Most of the Jews was opposed to the gospel, and it never took affect with them, Romans 9:6-8 KJV, meaning most never converted because they refused Jesus, Abraham’s seed, called in Isaac.

Yet, there was a time of reformation and transition - for the gospel to be preach, to convert souls, to show the mystery of the gentiles salvation and joining as one with the Jews, to show that the old law under the old covenant ended at Jesus death, to proclaim salvation for all in Jesus, etc.

I don’t know where you get it took time for the Jews to bear the gospel as if God gave them time, because that was not the case. God did not give them time because there are many accounts where the Holy Ghost was guiding the apostles to continue preaching even though it was an all out fight - Jews against the gospel being preached, and Jews killing and stoning those who preached the gospel, creating problems with those gentiles who Paul taught, such as the Galatians and others.

When Jesus said he had many things to say but they could not bare it, He was not saying he would give them time. What Jesus was actually saying was that those things they could not bare, that after He leave them, He would send them the Holy Spirit who would lead them into all truth, John 16:12-14 KJV. That’s why the were told to terry until they receive power from in high as promised, Acts 1:8 KJV, Luke 24:49 KJV. The power received, which is the Holy Spirit, was/is the One Who taught the disciples those thing Jesus said they could not bare. It had nothing to do with giving the Jews time to accept the truth of the gospel.

 

[biblelesson]

There is no verse that says exactly why a person receives the indwelling Holy Spirit. I’ve never had hands laid on me and I received the Holy Spirit. What the scriptures teach us is that God decides when a person receives the Holy Spirit, not baptism or the laying on of hands. Acts 8 doesn’t tell us why the Samerians didn’t receive the Holy Spirit until they were baptized and Acts 10 doesn’t tell us why Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. So forgive me for saying so but you’re just making assumptions as to why these people did or didn’t receive the Holy Spirit at a specific time and that assumption is not supported by the text. I’m not saying your assumptions are not plausible I’m simply saying that they cannot be considered doctrinal because they’re not explicitly stated which leaves them in a category of possibility not actual undeniable fact.

The verses dealing with the Samaritan, Simon and the Ethiopia, an eunuch does explain why they received the Holy Spirit. These people were baptized after Philip preached the kingdom of God and Jesus to them, but he did not lay hands on the people to receive the Holy Spirit. That is why when the apostles heard about it, they sent Peter and John so that those baptized under Philip’s preaching could receive the Holy Spirit. The scripture tells you the Spirit had not fell on them yet, Acts 8:16 KJV.

So if you will notice what the scripture is saying, prayer had to be offered for the Samaritans that they might receive the Holy Spirit, Acts 8:15 KJV, and it was not until hands were laid on them that they received the Holy Spirit, Acts 8:17 KJV. The scripture clearly says that “when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given…,” Acts 8:18 KJV.


The Holy Spirit also was poured out on groups of people when the word was preached, which is shown in the acts of the apostles, as when Peter was preaching, and other disciples and apostles. You will need to search those scriptures.

However, as I mentioned in my other post, when Pete who was sent by God and the Holy Spirit, to Cornelius, and when he was preaching to Cornelius and the other gentiles present, to include the Jews, the Holy Spirit was poured out in all of them. Peter then knew that baptism was warranted for those gentiles who the Holy Spirit had fell on. As the gospel was being proclaimed by the disciples and apostles, early in the beginning, it was not unusual for the Holy Spirit to be poured out on groups hearing the word. However, the ministry of baptism and the process is 1) preaching of the gospel unto repentance, 2) baptism by water, and 3) prayer that they might receive the Holy Spirit and the laying on hands to receive.

 

[biblelesson]

Peter was still not fully understanding that he should have gone to the Gentiles. , even though Jesus said so way back, so it is possible he didn’t fully understand the baptism into Christ fully either. We know this because Jesus corrected him in Acts 10 about the Gentiles and in Acts 11 about the water baptism of John being past.

But we know that Peter did finally understand the saving baptism and that it was not an outward washing with water but an inward work being in faith in Christ and his resurrection and we being risen with him and the answer of a clean conscience .(1 Pete 3:21)

So the scripture I listed in my post proving the baptism Jesus spoke to his disciples about was “water baptism,” and confirmed by Peter, Acts 10:47 KJV, you say Peter was confused. So now instead of acknowledging your error, you make untrue statements about Peter.

No, you are confused - and wrong!

Jesus told Peter and the other disciples to tarry for the Holy Spirit, and who had received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, Who taught them all truth, where the disciples were to be Jesus witnesses, Acts 1:8 KJV. If the Holy Ghost endowed Peter with power from on high, Luke 24:49 KJV, knowledge, discernment, and truth in Christ Jesus, John 16:13 KJV, how could Peter have been confused?

 

[biblelesson]

I’ve never had hands laid on me and I received the Holy Spirit. What the scriptures teach us is that God decides when a person receives the Holy Spirit, not baptism or the laying on of hands.

When Jesus died on the cross, He said it is finished. Everything the believer is to receive for salvation has already been decided, along with the determined process “to receive” in Christ. So, there is nothing given outside of Jesus.

The process to receive the Holy Spirit is what Jesus taught before His death, which His death was the enforcement of the new covenant, Jesus being the testator, Hebrews 9:17 KJV. Therefore within the New Covenant is the enforcement of baptism, with its “defined process,” in which the disciples understood to be repentance, water baptism in Jesus name, and the laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit.

Look at this scripture: we must believe to receive:
Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV
13 “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:..” [Hearing the preaching of the gospel]
“…in whom also after that ye believed, [the believer shows his/her belief through repentance and being baptized]
…”ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, [After baptism, prayer is lifted up for the believer to receive the Holy Spirit while hands are laid on them, they then receive the Holy Spirit]
14 “Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. [The Holy Spirit seals the believer into the kingdom; that is, their inheritance, 2 Corinthians 1:22 KJV, Ephesians 4:30 KJV]

Having received the Holy Spirit, we are given certain gifts. One important gift is the gift of discernment, which includes the discernment of scripture given to the believe only. The rest are blinded because the things of God cannot be discerned by the carnal mind, 1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV, Romans 11:7 KJV.

Other discernment is being able to only hear Christ: “My sheep hear my voice,” John 10:27 KJV. Jesus also said in Mark 16:16 KJV,
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. This scripture is saying if you chose not to be baptized, you don’t believed, therefore you are damed. Why take that chance? Are you afraid of water?

Other gifts of the Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:8-10 KJV

Other spiritual manifestations are miracles administered by God by His Spirit, Galatians 3:5 KJV.

After the scripture regarding baptism, Mark 16:16 KJV, Jesus also said, “…these signed will follow them that believe,” (this is regarding operating in power after receiving the Holy Spirit)
Mark 16:17-18 KJV
17 “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;”
18 “They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”
(Having received the Holy Spirit from hands being laid on the believer, these signs showing these abilities is proof they are true believers).

We are told to build ourselves up on our most holy faith (that is the power of the Holy Spirit in the believer, and faith of the gospel given to the believer), so that the believer can operate in power as God has said, 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV.
Paul even told Timothy to build up or stir up the gift of God that he possessed when Paul laid hands on him, 2 Timothy 1:6 KJV, which is the same thing Jude is telling us to do, Jude 1:20 KJV.

The Holy Spirit also circumcise our heart, write the laws in our heart and mind, strengthens our born again spirit, that is the new man, and joins us with Christ, which is the spiritual baptism, and the Holy Spirit joins the believer in the Father through Jesus, where we cry Abba Father.

There are a lot of wonderful things we are blessed with when we receive the Holy Spirit.

I cannot say you were baptized if you did not immerse in water, but if you believe you have receive the Holy Spirit, to be safe I would follow up on water baptism. Your situation could possibly be like Cornelius who first received the Holy Spirit, then was water baptized later, Acts 10:47 KJV

 

[concretecamper]

works salvation people will say that the Thief was extra biblically water baptized by John beforehand, or believed in Jesus before. but in Matthew 27:44, Mark 15:32 the thieves both Reviled Lord Jesus Christ, cast the same in his teeth. they were clearly both unsaved. Yet we see revealed in Lukes Gospel, one of the Thieves repents (changes his mind) and calls on the name of the Lord to be saved Luke 23:39-43, and Jesus saves him.

Matthew 27:38-44

38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,

40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Mark 15:27-32

27 And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.

28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,

30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.

31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Here we see in verse 32 that the thieves did in fact revile Lord Jesus Christ.

Luke 23:39-43

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Here we see one of the thieves repented (changed his mind) and Believed on Lord Jesus, called on his name to be saved. Nothing is put in the Bible by accident, this story was clearly put in by God as a picture of salvation.

And the people who say "The thief couldn't haved been saved by faith because Jesus didn't die yet" that is false because all throughout the Old Testament we see people justified by grace through faith, calling on the name of the Lord. Abel Genesis 4:4, Noah Genesis 6:8, Abraham Genesis 15:6 . Hebrews 11 lists Abel Enoch, Sarah, Moses, Jacob, Isaac, Joseph, Gedeon, and of Barak, Samson, and of Jephthae; of David, and Samuel, as being justified by faith. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. Always. There has never been different ways of salvation, it has always been by grace through faith.

Romans 4:2-5

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I see a lot of people quote Luke 23:39-43 and rightly so, but I never see anyone bring up Matthew 27:38-44, or Mark 15:27-32 which is frustrating because one of the things works salvationists, lose your salvation people will hit you with is "Oh the Thief on the cross was saved beforehand, or water baptized beforehand" but that's biblically false and that is extra biblical nonsense.

The thief was saved prior to Jesus rising from the dead and therefore he was saved under the Old Covenant.

Old Testament people who were to be saved went to Sheoul and waited for Jesus to come and preach the good news. They were not in Heaven.

Water baptism is how we are made part of His body in the New Covenant. If we die in the state of grace, with His help, we attain Heaven. That is the gospel

 

[biblelesson]

The thief was saved prior to Jesus rising from the dead and therefore he was saved under the Old Covenant.

Old Testament people who were to be saved went to Sheoul and waited for Jesus to come and preach the good news. They were not in Heaven.

Water baptism is how we are made part of His body in the New Covenant. If we die in the state of grace, with His help, we attain Heaven. That is the gospel

That’s true. Old Testament saints who were saved waited for Christ to redeem them from Sheoul, that is, Abraham’s Bosom.

Christ being the preeminence, was the first born of all creatures, Colossians 1:15 KJV. He was the first fruit unto God, 1 Corinthians 15:20 KJV, which is why when the graves of the Old Testament saints opened at His death, they were not resurrected until after Christ’s resurrection,
Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Yes, for the New Testament saints, water baptism is required to take part in his death, and resurrection, whereby we are joined by His Spirit, thus taking part of the body of Christ. Jesus was baptized first by John the Baptist, representing sin being washed away, so when we are baptized we go down into Jesus Christ’s baptism - where we are joined with Him spiritually.