the Thief on the cross is a perfect picture of salvation, the simplicity that is in Christ

[Cockcrow]

I heard this one false prophet talking about how the Thief on the cross is not a good picture of salvation for today, he was dispensational. trying to say the Thief was only an old covenant death so he doesn't apply. That's false, Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. salvation has always been grace through faith alone and the Thief perfectly represents this simplicity in Christ, and their are so many lies people attack the thief on the cross story with trying to teach this junk. Dispensational is false I know that. now I do think some dispensationalists are saved, even though I disagree with it, but the hyper dispensational people who say we were saved differently in the OT, than the NT, and in the Old testament they were saved by works, that person is a false prophet and not saved at all. Salvation is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ with zero works. Abraham believed God and was counted righteous. Jesus did the work for salvation, we do nothing, it's faith alone.

2 Corinthians 11:3 “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”


Luke 23:39-43

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise

 

[Josheb]

I heard this one false prophet talking about how the Thief on the cross is not a good picture of salvation for today, he was dispensational. trying to say the Thief was only an old covenant death so he doesn't apply. That's false...

While I might not make my case against the misreading of the submissive thief texts in the same way, you are correct. I also share your aversion to Dispensationalism and wonder where a poster goes to be more specific about the many problems in Dispensationalism (like the discontinuity described in this op).

 

[Josheb]

Abraham believed God and was counted righteous.

That is not all.

Galatians 3 tells us the gospel was preached to Abraham. Abe knew God was the one that had pledged fealty to God and had done so upon penalty of God's death. Abe knew the sacrifice would be a son, a son of promise, and that God would provide the sacrifice and that even were the sone to die God would bring him back to life. Abraham knew he would have to leave home to see the promised land, that he would be the father of many nations (long before any Jews or the nation of Israel ever existed). Abraham looked for a city whose foundations were designed and built by God (not men) and Abraham knew its king would also be a priest (long before the Law established the lesser Levitical priesthood).

That is what Abraham believed. His faith was enormous, and enormously full.

The same can be said of other OT persons, too.

......salvation has always been grace through faith alone and the Thief perfectly represents this simplicity in Christ..........

Yep.

Acts 16:25-34
But about midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns of praise to God, and the prisoners were listening to them; and suddenly there came a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison house were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone's chains were unfastened. When the jailer awoke and saw the prison doors opened, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Do not harm yourself, for we are all here!" And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.

Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”


That is what the thief did: he believed and confessed Jesus as Lord.

Luke 23:42
And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom!”


The thief believed Jesus is King, and although the thief knew he was guilty, he was Jew who knew the prophecies of old. For believing, he would be saved and not be put to shame.

However, something has been left out. Your signature says it but the op does not: Salvation by grace through faith is a gift of God.

Good op.

 

[HTacianas]

I heard this one false prophet talking about how the Thief on the cross is not a good picture of salvation for today, he was dispensational. trying to say the Thief was only an old covenant death so he doesn't apply. That's false, Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. salvation has always been grace through faith alone and the Thief perfectly represents this simplicity in Christ, and their are so many lies people attack the thief on the cross story with trying to teach this junk. Dispensational is false I know that. now I do think some dispensationalists are saved, even though I disagree with it, but the hyper dispensational people who say we were saved differently in the OT, than the NT, and in the Old testament they were saved by works, that person is a false prophet and not saved at all. Salvation is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ with zero works. Abraham believed God and was counted righteous. Jesus did the work for salvation, we do nothing, it's faith alone.

2 Corinthians 11:3 “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”


Luke 23:39-43

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise

The thief on the cross really isn't a good example of salvation today. The thief lived in an interim period where the OT and NT overlapped. But the thief went to heaven because he died sinless. All of his previous sins were forgiven. We receive forgiveness of our previous sins through baptism now. If as the thief did, a person died after having those sins forgiven through baptism he would also go to heaven as having died sinless.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

trying to say the Thief was only an old covenant death so he doesn't apply.

Both old and new testament saints were saved by God's grace. Whoever teaches that both groups were saved different ways needs to step down as a preacher.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

The thief on the cross really isn't a good example of salvation today.

The thief is an excellent example of salvation, and it does not matter when one was saved, as we can be justified by faith alone, by God's grace, and that applies to all of the saints.

Luke 23 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” the thief repented

42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” here the thief acknowledges Jesus as Messiah and he shows faith.
Remember 'Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live' John 11:25

We receive forgiveness of our previous sins through baptism now.

We receive forgivness the same way as OT did. And I hope you mean baptism of Holy Spirit, and not water baptism.

 

[HTacianas]

The thief is an excellent example of salvation, and it does not matter when one was saved, as we can be justified by faith alone, by God's grace, and that applies to all of the saints.

Luke 23 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” the thief repented

42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” here the thief acknowledges Jesus as Messiah and he shows faith.
Remember 'Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live' John 11:25




We receive forgivness the same way as OT did. And I hope you mean baptism of Holy Spirit, and not water baptism.

I mean water baptism. Just like it says in the bible and Christianity has taught for two thousand years. Just as Jesus said:

Mar 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved..."

And Peter also:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[eleos1954]

I heard this one false prophet talking about how the Thief on the cross is not a good picture of salvation for today, he was dispensational. trying to say the Thief was only an old covenant death so he doesn't apply. That's false, Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. salvation has always been grace through faith alone and the Thief perfectly represents this simplicity in Christ, and their are so many lies people attack the thief on the cross story with trying to teach this junk. Dispensational is false I know that. now I do think some dispensationalists are saved, even though I disagree with it, but the hyper dispensational people who say we were saved differently in the OT, than the NT, and in the Old testament they were saved by works, that person is a false prophet and not saved at all. Salvation is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ with zero works. Abraham believed God and was counted righteous. Jesus did the work for salvation, we do nothing, it's faith alone.

2 Corinthians 11:3 “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”


Luke 23:39-43

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise

The truth is .... the reality of who is or isn't saved will not be known to us until Jesus returns. We are to point others to Jesus that they might be saved ..... not judge or speculation of who is or isn't saved .... salvation is totally up to Jesus and only known by Him. We do not know the secret things.

 

[bibletruths]

I mean water baptism. Just like it says in the bible and Christianity has taught for two thousand years. Just as Jesus said:

Mar 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved..."

And Peter also:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Many wrongly try to divide the water of baptism and the Spirit. This is a very modern concept.

To deny the singular baptism, a baptism in water and of Spirit, you must contort the work of what God does for/to us "through baptism" to be a work of our own doing and power. The Bible directly differentiates baptism from works and makes saved by grace and saved through baptism not mutually exclusive.

To deny that avenue by which God has chosen to save us ("through water"), is to deny salvation altogether.

 

[Guojing]

Salvation is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ with zero works. Abraham believed God and was counted righteous. Jesus did the work for salvation, we do nothing, it's faith alone.

If it was always by faith alone, do you then think Jesus was joking to the lawyer when the latter asked him that question in Luke 10:25-28, when he replied to obey God's laws to be saved?

 

[bibletruths]

If it was always by faith alone, do you then think Jesus was joking to the lawyer when the latter asked him that question in Luke 10:25-28, when he replied to obey God's laws to be saved?

He's adding "alone".

Salvation is by faith, but faith is never complete without the obedience of faith. "Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did." - James 2:21-22

Faith without the obedience of faith is therefore incomplete. This demands the question: Would an incomplete faith be a saving faith?

 

[Guojing]

He's adding "alone".

Salvation is by faith, but faith is never complete without the obedience of faith. "Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did." - James 2:21-22

Faith without the obedience of faith is therefore incomplete. This demands the question: Would an incomplete faith be a saving faith?

Salvation, under Paul's gospel, is by faith alone today. (Romans 4:5).

But you are correct, it was not always like that. (James 2:24)

 

[bibletruths]

Salvation, under Paul's gospel, is by faith alone today. (Romans 4:5).

But you are correct, it was not always like that. (James 2:24)

Yes, salvation is by faith. However, you have to be careful to not classify the answer to the question of "what must we do to be saved" as works (repent and be baptized).

 

[Dan Perez]

While I might not make my case against the misreading of the submissive thief texts in the same way, you are correct. I also share your aversion to Dispensationalism and wonder where a poster goes to be more specific about the many problems in Dispensationalism (like the discontinuity described in this op).

We do know that Christ told the thief , that he would be with Christ in Paradise and then his body went to the grave !!

All that died before the THIEF went to a place called HELL , .

So where will all people go to those saved by GRACE go ??

dan p

 

[Josheb]

We do know that Christ told the thief , that he would be with Christ in Paradise and then his body went to the grave !!

Yes, but that is not all we know, and a selective use of scripture is to be abhorred and avoided. We also know that to be out of the body is to be with the Lord AND the Lord is NOW resurrected and enthroned (not still lying in a grave).

All that died before the THIEF went to a place called HELL , .

Got scripture for that?

So where will all people go to those saved by GRACE go ??

dan p

To be with the resurrected, ascended, and enthroned Lord of all. The body sown corruptible, and immortal is raised incorruptible and immortal.



It should also be understood that the words "hell," hades," and "tartarus" are pagan terms. They are pagan terms used in reference to pagan beliefs about how pagans views the matter of death. They are myths. Hell, Hades, and Tartarus do not actually exist. The Jewish version was Sheol, or the grave. The mainstream, prominent majority view within Judaism was that there is no life after death, no resurrection. The dead know nothing. Although there are references to the resurrection throughout Tanakh, it was not until the rise of the Pharisees during the intertestamental period that any Jew ever thought any life after death had any credence. That might be why only Pharisees converted to Christ and there's no record of any Sadducee ever doing so.

The New Testament writers wrote in Greek (with the possible exception of Matthew). Writing in Greek they used terms with which the surrounding cultures would be familiar. Jesus did not speak Greek; he likely preached in Aramaic and "hell," hades," and "tartarus" are NOT Aramaic words. In Judaism the dead dies, were buried and that was the end. No more life anywhere ever. When you're dead, you're dead. The surrounding pagans, however, believed something much, much different. For them there was not just one god. Judaism was the only monotheism in that part of the world. EVERYONE ELSE believe in polytheism. Believing in polytheism, they all believed there was a god of the underworld, and god of the dead. When a person died they did not cease to exist and neither did they lose consciousness. Having died their life would then become a life of miserable conscious existence in the realm of one of the lesser gods. The names of those gods varied (Hel, Hades, Pluro, Osiris, Mot, Arawn, etc.). The names varied but the one common belief was that when you died you went to live underground under the reign of a lesser god.

That is NOT what Jesus taught.

In the Greek, Roman, and Norse religions (mythologies) if a person performed a great feat they might be honored by the gods and promoted to live in the Elysian Fields at the foot of Mount Olympus (or Valhalla) where the gods lived. They, because of their great feat, were privileged to live among the gods...... but they remained dead humans. Deification did not mean a person actually became a god. It simply meant they were privileged with special status and would, in the end, be further privileged to live among the gods. They'd still die. All the deified Caesars died.

That is NOT what Jesus taught, either.

What Jesus taught was something much different: no amount of work, not feat - no matter how great it might be - could get you out of the just recompense for sin. There are only two options: die in your sin and receive torturous destruction and God's own hand (no lesser gods) or die believing in God's only resurrected Son and receive eternal life.

This is, in fact, at the core of the gospel because the term "gospel" is the term the Greeks and Romans used to announce one of those promoting acts that deified a person. That is the term the gospel writers used. They usurped that term! Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, John, and all the rest claimed that Jesus was not a son of some god that made him a half-breed. Jesus was the logos of God that is God AND Jesus did something not even Caesar could do: defeat death, rise from the grave in his body, and live eternally. Jesu, and Jesus alone is King of all kings and that includes Caesar.

That is what Jesus taught.

And that is why the persecution of Christians moved from the Jews to the Romans. It's not okay to claim someone is a better King than Caesar, a king so mighty that Caesar must be subject to him. That is why they impaled Christians, covered them with pitch, lit them on fire, and put them out as streetlights.


The thief did not go to hell. There is no underworld ruled by lesser gods. There is only immortality, or the fiery lake and the thief did not get thrown in the latter.

 

[Dan Perez]

Yes, but that is not all we know, and a selective use of scripture is to be abhorred and avoided. We also know that to be out of the body is to be with the Lord AND the Lord is NOW resurrected and enthroned (not still lying in a grave).

Got scripture for that?

To be with the resurrected, ascended, and enthroned Lord of all. The body sown corruptible, and immortal is raised incorruptible and immortal.



It should also be understood that the words "hell," hades," and "tartarus" are pagan terms. They are pagan terms used in reference to pagan beliefs about how pagans views the matter of death. They are myths. Hell, Hades, and Tartarus do not actually exist. The Jewish version was Sheol, or the grave. The mainstream, prominent majority view within Judaism was that there is no life after death, no resurrection. The dead know nothing. Although there are references to the resurrection throughout Tanakh, it was not until the rise of the Pharisees during the intertestamental period that any Jew ever thought any life after death had any credence. That might be why only Pharisees converted to Christ and there's no record of any Sadducee ever doing so.

The New Testament writers wrote in Greek (with the possible exception of Matthew). Writing in Greek they used terms with which the surrounding cultures would be familiar. Jesus did not speak Greek; he likely preached in Aramaic and "hell," hades," and "tartarus" are NOT Aramaic words. In Judaism the dead dies, were buried and that was the end. No more life anywhere ever. When you're dead, you're dead. The surrounding pagans, however, believed something much, much different. For them there was not just one god. Judaism was the only monotheism in that part of the world. EVERYONE ELSE believe in polytheism. Believing in polytheism, they all believed there was a god of the underworld, and god of the dead. When a person died they did not cease to exist and neither did they lose consciousness. Having died their life would then become a life of miserable conscious existence in the realm of one of the lesser gods. The names of those gods varied (Hel, Hades, Pluro, Osiris, Mot, Arawn, etc.). The names varied but the one common belief was that when you died you went to live underground under the reign of a lesser god.

That is NOT what Jesus taught.

In the Greek, Roman, and Norse religions (mythologies) if a person performed a great feat they might be honored by the gods and promoted to live in the Elysian Fields at the foot of Mount Olympus (or Valhalla) where the gods lived. They, because of their great feat, were privileged to live among the gods...... but they remained dead humans. Deification did not mean a person actually became a god. It simply meant they were privileged with special status and would, in the end, be further privileged to live among the gods. They'd still die. All the deified Caesars died.

That is NOT what Jesus taught, either.

What Jesus taught was something much different: no amount of work, not feat - no matter how great it might be - could get you out of the just recompense for sin. There are only two options: die in your sin and receive torturous destruction and God's own hand (no lesser gods) or die believing in God's only resurrected Son and receive eternal life.

This is, in fact, at the core of the gospel because the term "gospel" is the term the Greeks and Romans used to announce one of those promoting acts that deified a person. That is the term the gospel writers used. They usurped that term! Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, John, and all the rest claimed that Jesus was not a son of some god that made him a half-breed. Jesus was the logos of God that is God AND Jesus did something not even Caesar could do: defeat death, rise from the grave in his body, and live eternally. Jesu, and Jesus alone is King of all kings and that includes Caesar.

That is what Jesus taught.

And that is why the persecution of Christians moved from the Jews to the Romans. It's not okay to claim someone is a better King than Caesar, a king so mighty that Caesar must be subject to him. That is why they impaled Christians, covered them with pitch, lit them on fire, and put them out as streetlights.


The thief did not go to hell. There is no underworld ruled by lesser gods. There is only immortality, or the fiery lake and the thief did not get thrown in the latter.

But Luke 16:22 and 23 , 26 the beggar when to HELL // HADES , called Abraham Bosom !!


And where did the THIEF go then ??

Where do you think you will go when you die ??

dan p

 

[Josheb]

But Luke 16:22 and 23 , 26 the beggar when to HELL // HADES , called Abraham Bosom !!


And where did the THIEF go then ??

Where do you think you will go when you die ??

dan p

Great question. What do you think is Abraham's bosom"? Specifically. Try to use scripture to answer that question and not extra-scriptural interpretations.

 

[TPop]

The thief on the cross really isn't a good example of salvation today. The thief lived in an interim period where the OT and NT overlapped. But the thief went to heaven because he died sinless. All of his previous sins were forgiven. We receive forgiveness of our previous sins through baptism now. If as the thief did, a person died after having those sins forgiven through baptism he would also go to heaven as having died sinless.

Disagree. That thief shows how Simple salvation is. Belive. No works attached.

Peace and Blessings

 

[Cockcrow]

The thief on the cross really isn't a good example of salvation today. The thief lived in an interim period where the OT and NT overlapped. But the thief went to heaven because he died sinless. All of his previous sins were forgiven. We receive forgiveness of our previous sins through baptism now. If as the thief did, a person died after having those sins forgiven through baptism he would also go to heaven as having died sinless.

Why would God include this story then about the thief, if it didn't mean anything for today. you say he died sinless, but the bible says in Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. salvation is not about dying sinless, obviously your born again spirit is sinless, but we still have the flesh which is why the bible tells us to put on the new man, but nobody is 100% sinless right now, when they die and their spirit departs to be with Christ then yes that spirit is sinless, but not our flesh. the flesh stays behind. and eventually we will be given a new body. because this body we have currently is not sinless or perfect.

 

[HTacianas]

Disagree. That thief shows how Simple salvation is. Belive. No works attached.

Peace and Blessings

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins;