LoveofTruth
Christ builds His church from within us
“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”" ( 1 Cor 12:13 KJV)
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Bible proof that the Thief on the cross never got water baptized.
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“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”" ( 1 Cor 12:13 KJV)
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It is hard to disagree with someone who holds to the idea of "sola scriptura" and that everything that must be believed must be in the Bible. You have a limited understanding of Christian history. I don't blame you for leaving the Catholic faith. The Catholic Church, according to Scott Hahn, a convert to the Catholic faith, did a wretched job of catechizing people over the last 200 years. I cannot begin to tell you how many Roman Catholics I have met in my lifetime who were abysmally ignorant of their own faith, the Fathers of the Church, and Christian history in general. They, like you, were easy prey for the various Protestant sects and the cultists such as the JW's and Mormons.
Your problem, as I skimmed the lengthy posts you made, is that you twist the Scripture mean what your chosen denomination has told you that they mean. The rather humorous part, as I said before, is that you can find probably three or four dozen equally vocal and dedicated Protestants from other assemblies who would vehemently disagree with you and would use the Scriptures to do so. Do you see the problem here? Is the Holy Spirit that schizophrenic?
Regarding your quote above, to whom do you answer in matters of Christian doctrine and morality? If a SDA member tells you that A.) he is in the Church because he believes in Christ, and B.) that you must worship on Saturday, does he have the authority over you to tell you this? After all, according to your thinking, he is in the Body of Christ as one who professes Christ, and therefore, perhaps he has authority to tell you what to do.
As regards the Church, let's make a few suppositions here:
1. The Church is the Body of Christ in the New Covenant. That means that Christians are people of the Covenant of God.
2. The Church existed in the Old Covenant. The word "church" is ἐκκλησία ekklēsia in the Greek and עֵדָה ʿēḏâ (literally "congregation") in the Hebrew. In this sense, one could have a "congregation" in a house, as in the house churches of the first century, or one could be speaking of the larger congregation.
3. In order to be part of the congregation, one has to enter into the covenant. In the OT that was done by circumcision, and the man who was not circumcised was considered to be outside of the congregation of Israel. The same applies to the NT congregation. Baptism is that act of "covenant cutting" which enters one into the congregation.
4. There are five active principles of covenant:
T - Transcendence "The greater offers covenant to the lesser."
H - Hierarchy "Who is in charge here?"
E - Ethics "What are the rules of the covenant."
O - Oaths and sanctions "Promises to keep the covenant ethics and sanctions upon disobedience."
S - Succession "The covenant is handed down from generation to generation."
The principle germane to our discussion is hierarchy. In any covenant structure, there is one who is the covenant head. Not many. One. St. Paul made mention of this when he spoke of his authority to those who were dismissing and insulting his leadership in his absence. He warned them that he could either come with love or a rod of correction.
There is no way to have one authority over thousands of independent assemblies who answer only to themselves. This is why there is chaos in Christendom today, with literally hundreds of different teachings within Protestantism, all contradicting each other, and yet all claiming to be following the Bible and the Holy Spirit. The earthly body can only have one headship, and that is the Last Adam - Christ. The Bible says that the Church is His Body, therefore, when the Church speaks Christ speaks, and when the Church is silent, we have no right to invent things such as the Filioque Clause to the Creed or Indulgences. Christ speaks through His Church, but when hundreds of denominations are speaking all different things and yet claiming to be "The Church" or part of the Church - this chaos simply cannot be true. God is not the author if confusion.
Our God is greatly merciful, and He works wherever and whenever He chooses to work. Contrary to those Fundamentalists in both Orthodoxy and Catholicism who claim that there is no salvation outside their assembly, Christ's mercy extends far beyond our limitations. I like that in Orthodoxy, a bishop recently said "We know where the Church is, but we do not know where it isn't" which speaks to our Lord's actions outside the boundaries of the physical Church.
Nonetheless, our Lord called for unity in John 17 and not division. We are to be guided by one Divine Head who speaks through His Church, the Orthodox Church, which has remained unchanged in doctrine for hundreds of years. It is this Church which called councils and established the truth against heresies such as Montanism, Gnosticism, Monothelitism, Monophysitism, and Arianism.
Finally, when the writers of the Scriptures spoke of the congregation, they had no idea of an invisible body of "true believers." They knew who the leaders were and who bore authority. They knew where the worship took place, and it was not out in the woods with the butterflies and bees. They also knew that there were established norms of worship which were important because they were given by God. A great deal of Evangelical worship today is nothing more than entertainment. Take the pictures of Jesus out of their building, take away the crosses, and you have a nice nightclub with good music. That's not worship. That is the flesh getting entertained.
The worship of Orthodoxy is over 1500 years old. As the Church came out of hiding, the worship developed along Scriptural lines. Here is how the Divine Liturgy meets all that Scripture says we should do:
Opening Doxology [“Blessed in the Kingdom…] Mark: 11:10; Luke: 22:29-30, Matthew: 28:19; Revelation: 7:12.
The Great Litany – Philippians: 4:6-7; Psalm 51:1 Luke: 18:13; John: 14:27; 1 Timothy: 2:1-2;
1 Hebrews: 13:7; Psalm 109:26; Luke: 1:42.
The First Antiphon – [“Bless the Lord, O my soul”]. Selected verses from Psalm 103.
The Second Antiphon – [“Praise the Lord, O my soul”]. Psalm 103.
The Hymn to Christ Incarnate – [“Only- begotten Son…,”]. John: 1:1, 3:16, 17:5, 19:18; Luke: 1:35; Hebrews: 2:14; Matthew: 8:25.
The Third Antiphon – [The Beatitudes] Matthew: 5:3-12.
The Little Entrance – [“Come let us worship..,] Psalm 95:1-6; Revelation: 7:11-12.
The Trisagion – [“Holy God, Holy Mighty…,”] Isaiah: 6:1-5; Revelation: 8:8.
Prokeimenon – Psalms 12:7,1; 28:9,1; 29:11,1; 33:22,1; 47:6,1; 76:11,1; 104:24,1; 118:14,18.
The Epistle – readings change daily, from the Epistles or Acts of the Apostles.
The Allelulia – Psalms 113:1; 135:1; 146:1; Revelation: 19: 1-6.
The Gospel – readings change daily. The Sermon – 1 Timothy: 4:13.
The Cherubic Hymn – [“Let us who mystically..”] Colossians: 3:12; Pslam 24; Revelations: 19:1-6.
The Great Entrance – Psalm 43:4; Matthew: 5: 23-24; Hebrews: 5:1.
The Peace – [“Peace be unto all…”]. John: 20: 9,21,26. 1 John 4:7; 1 Peter: 3:8; Philippians:2-2.
The Eucharistic Canon – [“Let us stand aright”] Leviticus: 3:1; Hebrews: 13:14-15; Hosea: 6:6; Psalm 49:19; Matthew: 9:13; Corinthians: 13:14; 2 Timothy: 4:22; Lamentations: 3:41.
The Eucharistic Prayer – [“Holy, Holy, Holy…” through the Consecration]. Isaiah: 6:3; Mark: 11:10; Matthew: 21:9; Corinthians: 11:23-24; Matthew: 26:26-28; John: 6:51; Luke: 22:20; Mark: 14: 23-24; Corinthians: 29: 14, 16; Romans: 21:1.
Hymn to the Theotokos – [“It is truly right…”]. Luke: 1:28, 42, 48.
The Concluding Eucharistic Prayers – 2 Maccabees: 12:44-45; 1 Timothy: 2:2; 2 Timothy: 2:15; Romans: 15:6; Titus: 2:13; Revelations:22:21
The Litany before the Lord’s Prayer – Ephesians: 5:2; Philippians: 4:18; 1 Peter: 3:15; Corinthians: 5:10; Ephesians: 4:13; Philippians: 2:1.
The Lord’s Prayer – Matthew: 6:9-13; Corinthians 29:11.
The Elevation of the Holy Gifts – [“Holy things are for the Holy.”] Leviticus: 11:44; Philippians: 2:10-11.
The Communion Hymn – [“Praise the Lord…”] Psalm 148:1.
The Eucharist – 1 Corinthians: 11:27-29; Matthew: 16:16; 1 Timothy: 1:15; Mark: 14:45; Luke: 23:42- 43; Isaiah: 6:7; 1 Timothy: 1:14; James: 4:8; Psalm 118: 26-27; Psalm: 34:8; 1 Peter: 1:19; John: 6: 32-35, 48-58; Psalm 116:13; Psalm 28:0.
Hymns after Holy Communion – [“We have received the true Light..”]. John: 1:9; Rev.: 3-14; Psalm 71:8; Chronicles: 16:9; Ephesians: 3:9.
Litany after Communion – Judges 18:6; Colossians: 3:17; Mark: 11:9.
Prayer behind the Ambo – [“O Lord, who blesses those who…”]. Genesis 12:3; Psalm 28:9, Psalm 26.8; Psalm 138:81, 1 Timothy: 2:2; James: 1:17.
“Blessed be the name of the Lord, from this time forth and for evermore!” Psalm 113:2.
“The blessing of the Lord…”. Psalm 129:8; 2 Corinthians 13:14.
The Dismisal – 1 Timothy: 1:1.
I encourage you to study Orthodoxy. It is the Church and the fullness of the Christian faith.
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LoveofTruth
Christ builds His church from within us
Hello and God bless,
You obviously are not led by the Spirit in what you say.You assume things in your natural mind.
Here is a thread I wrote in here.
The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"
The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"
The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture alone PART 1 (Contnued in part 2) A correction to the “sola scriptura” teaching, which says “scripture ALONE”. Now, at first glance some may think that I am teaching that scripture is not a rule of faith and practice. I am not quite saying...
www.christianforums.com
I speak often of men like Abraham and Noah and Ot saints who did not have the scriptures yet and they still knew God and were led by God.
and I, like my brother Paul believe this statement of His.
“But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:”" (Acts 24:14 KJV)
You again know very little of what I have studied and read through my 61 years of life. I have a strong understanding of these things. And I believe I would see many things different in understanding of the history of the church and many men of history and their ideas, But I do not put men above that which is written or traditions of men that make the word of God of no effect as many do in various professing Christian groups.
God called me to himself and to withdraw from all things that are not true and according to the Spirit and the word. Even the other gatherings I went to afterwards, among those called protestants, i also withdrew from them as well, though I have many brothers and sisters still gathering among them.
We really do not need to base our understanding of the massive errors of the Roman catholic Church on a man called "Scott Hahn", or any other man. The Spirit of God will reveal to those who are seeking and who walk in the light of Christ the truth and lead them out if they will follow. Also we have the revelation of the scriptures that are profitable for doctrine,reproof, rebuke, correction , instruction in righteousness, and that clearly expose the errors in many man made religious forms and errors and those who's traditions of man and commandments of men make the word of God of no effect.
I have met some in Greek Orthodox and Pentecostal and baptist and man other professing groups that do not understand many things of their faith. But if there is genuine faith and they are weak in the faith , patience and grace in the love of Christ is needed and a spiritual walk and mind.
Jesus said
“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”" ( Matthew 23:9 KJV)
The so called "fathers" of the past might be included in this warning. And especially the Roman catholic priest who call themselves "priest" and father" .
To know a great deal about christian history is not needful for salvation or a close walk with God. It can be helpful to see how many gatherings today came to the dismal state they are in who make the word of God of no effect in soo many places, including the Orthodox Christ and the Roman catholics Church and soo many others.
They are not like me. You cannot try to group men into a kind of people and assume what you do the way you do. I have been called of God and sent by God to many places, and sent to preach all over as well, I have met few that are called this way.
No I am not "easy prey". The JWs and Mormons are not Christian groups to me. They are cults to me. But I have still tried to speak to them and help them often.
The error you are showing here is that you just assume that your religious form and gatherings are somehow right and according to Gods way and all others are wrong. So you start from that wrong position. You are not right in soo many things in your understanding it would literally take about 100 pages in here to even begin to address some of the things.
I would be interested to know if you were born into your belief system, or if you converted to it, and what background you had in religious forms.
So far no problem has been shown at all. This is just your reflex reaction to anyone who is not part of your religious group and you assume they are not correct from the start. This is your problem to start with as I understand.
skimming is not how you should read what I wrote.
instead,
“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” ( 1 John 2:27 KJV)
"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" (Isaiah 28:9,10 KJV)
Again false. I do not twist scripture. This is a reflect reaction by many who assume that all who disagree with them are wrong and they do not show how I have not used scripture right.
Also I am not in a man made denomination. I hear from God and the revelation of the Spirit as much as I walk in the light I have been given. If I have errors I seek the Lord to teach me directly and through the body and scriptures. Not men who have man made traditions that make the word of God of no effect and who do not show me how I have written not according to scripture.
No offence intended. But you speak things that are not accurate about me.
These things are serious and spiritually very important, not funny. Paul said this and i agree with him
"When I therefore was thus minded, did I use lightness? or the things that I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be yea yea, and nay nay? 18 But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay." ( 2 Corinthians 1:17,18 KJBV)
this does not mean anything. There have always been disagreements among believers and even Paul had to withstand against Peter at a time (Galatians 2). I am willing t hear any who disagree and examine what they say . But if I show them that what I say is true I hope they will believe it and act accordingly.
There is no problem. Believers are to always contend for the faith and withstand the gainsayers by sound doctrine and we see this all over scripture.
Jesus stood agains most of the religious crowd and the Pharisees and majority does not make right.
If Paul had all forsake him at one time, that did not make Paul wrong.
And Many try to claim they are in the Spirit and truth and are not. If we s\look at the scriptures and examine what they say, we can se if they are in the Spirit.
I answer, as all believers must to my head, Christ, and to every other part of the body as they live and move and minister and speak in the head. We are to submit to one another as we read in scripture. Authority is only as we live and speak the word of God. Even jesus was question by the religious robe wearing crowd of hypocrites and challenged by what authority he spoke. They assumed, (wrongly) that he had no authority as they did. They had a positional authority in the world, but they were not in the spiritual authority. Jesus was not a earthly kind or leader as they knew. But he spoke as one having authority and he was in the authority of God. All believers are in this authority as they walk in Christ. Even a young believer with the Spirit and scriptures can tear down strongholds of a entire Pope system if they try to stand against him without scripture or in the Spirit. Yet they would assume as many others do in other gatherings that they are right because they have a man mad positional authority.
No man is in any authority unless they live in the Spirit and speak the word of God. If a man tells any to do things or believe things contrary to scripture they are to be ignored and withdrawn from and marked
I am not part of any man made religious group. The SDA i consider borderline cultish in my understanding and bound up under the law in many areas. With many doctrinal errors according to scripture. I have tried to speak to them at times.
I did not hear this from SDA. The scripture says that all believers are in Christ and Christ is the head of the body the church.
No I do not believe this, we worship every day.
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LoveofTruth
Christ builds His church from within us
suppositions
(sʌpəzɪʃən ) Word forms: plural suppositions. 1. countable noun [oft NOUN that] A supposition is an idea or statement which someone believes or assumes to be true, although they may have no evidence for it."
I do not need to make such "suppositions". I believe the truth according to the Spirit and scripture and the witness in my spirit. The anointing teaches all things and is truth.
I would say as scripture says
"And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." ( Ephesians 1:22, 23 KJV)
“For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.” ( 1 Corinthians 12;12 KJV)
“So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.” * Romans 12:5 KJV)
“And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.” ( Colossians 1:18 KJV)
The word church means
ἐκκλησία ekklēsía, ek-klay-see'-ah; from a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church.
The "church that Jesus built in His name is a new assembly than the OT,even though the people of God were still children of God then.They were still the called out unto God though. Jesus said he would build His church. But this is a longer talk.
the baptism in the new testament to be in the body of Christ is a spiritual one, where believers are baptized by one Spirit into one body.
“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” ( 1 Cor 12:13 KJV)
and they are baptized into Christ and put on Christ, not baptized into water and put on water,
“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” (Galatians 3:27 KJV)
and no the saving spiritual baptism into Chris is not like OT circumcision, even though the inward circumcision of the heart is like the new birth.
no Hierarchy in the order of God in the New testament except Christ as the head working effectually in the measure of every part of the body ( Ephesians 4:15,16 KJV. Hebrews 13:20, 21 KJV).
Jesus spoke against Hierarchy in the church as we read,
"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:} ( Matthew 20:25-27 KJV)
read my study on the "
The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"
swear not at all as scripture shows
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." ( Matthew 5:33-37 KJV)
“But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."(James 5:12 KJV)
yes and we should get into this massive error in church history and in many assemblies today.
Christ is the head. Some do not hold the head and have another head of man.. This is shown that Christ is the head and those who do not hold the head are warned against in scripture.
"...even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.” (Ephesians 5:23 KJV)
and this is how the body works when Christ is the head. Does your gathering work this way, can all edify one another as they are commanded to do (1 Cor 14:26-37, 1 Peter 4:10,11 KJV)
"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." ( Ephesians 4:15,16 KJV)
And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.: * Colossians 2:19 KJB)
“And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.” (Colossians 1:18 KJV)
Christ has to have preminence. But when a single head over all or a man who loveth to have the preeminance sets himself up or draws away disciples after himself this is spiritually dangerous.
"I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church." (3 John 9,10 KJV) This was an evil way.
"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified." (Acts 20:29-32 KJV)
Notice that when Paul commended them, he commended them to God and the word of Hos grace, not to a central authoroity over them, or a man, or some controlling men.
“For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.” (2 Corinthians 11:20 KJV)
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head..." (Colossians 2:8,0 KJV)
No, Paul said he was not a controller over them. He persuaded them, reasoned with them, and yes he could rebuke them. All believers have the power of God with them when they walk in the Spirit and the word.
“Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.”" (2 Corinthians 1:24 KJV)
the word Not for that "we have dominion over"means,
κυριεύω kyrieúō, ko-ree-yoo'-o; from G2962; to rule:—have dominion over, lord, be lord of, exercise lordship over.
κύριος kýrios, koo'-ree-os; from κῦρος kŷros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):—God, Lord, master, Sir.
κυριεύω; future κυριεύσω; 1 aorist subjunctive 3 person singular κυριεύσῃ; (κύριος); to be lord of, to rule over, have dominion over: with the genitive of the object (cf. Buttmann, 169 (147)), Luke 22:25; Romans 14:9; 2 Corinthians 1:24; absolutely, οἱ κυριεύοντες, supreme rulers, kings, 1 Timothy 6:15; of things and forces equivalent to to exercise influence upon, to have power over: with the genitive of the object, ὁ θάνατος, Romans 6:9; ἡ ἁμαρτία, 14; ὁ νόμος, Romans 7:1. (Xenophon, Aristotle, Polybius, and following, the Sept. for מָשַׁל (etc.).) (Compare: κατακυριεύω.)"
They are not controllers, or in supreme authority or Lords over, or Masters over, or rule over, or have power over, or absolute power.
Christ rules in the hearts of all believers and those who speak and live in Christ are heard.
continued later...
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I make no assumptions. I follow what the Church has taught from the beginning, therefore, your accusation is that the very first Christian pastors, saints, and martyrs were not led by the Spirit.
As for your question regarding my acceptance of the Orthodox faith, I have been on a long and winding journey over the many years of my life, having been raised Episcopalian, a short four-year stint as a self-declared atheist which almost killed me in my hedonistic pursuit of pleasure, the "saved" by the ministry of a neo-Pentecostal street preacher. From there, after his ministry devolved into a cult, I was in Fundamentalist Baptist assemblies for 12 years, followed by 13 years in the PCA. After two years of online debate/discussion with Roman Catholic apologists, I converted to the Byzantine Catholic Church, where I stayed for 21 years.
The Byzantine Catholic Church is called "Orthodoxy in Communion with Rome," however, as I furthered my study, the concept of what it means to be "in communion" meant that I could not reconcile trying to be Orthodox with having communion with Rome. In 2022 I converted to the Orthodox faith.
Therefore, I have been around, learned a lot, and studied a lot. Like a lot of Evangelicals and Protestants who are entering Orthodoxy (our parish is bursting at the seams, and we have many catechumens), I found that I wanted to worship as the first Christians did, rather than follow any branch of Christianity which was invented 500 years ago as Protestantism was, or anything to do with the Roman Catholic Church, which has added a number of dogmas to the original faith of the Church.
I realize that you are set in what you believe, as I was in each of the places I stopped on my way back to the original Church which was founded upon the Apostles. I wish my journey to Orthodoxy could have been shorter, but for some reason, only known to God, it was long and drawn out. There is no further need for discussion as I am not going to change your mind. That will be up to God to do in His own way and in His own time.
The blessing of the Lord be upon you.
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LoveofTruth
Christ builds His church from within us
Yes, you did. As I proved.
No, you miss many things. When I left many of the religious forms we see today (having been through many of them) I saw by revelation the simplicity in Christ. We would meet in our homes have a covenant meal together and wait on the Lord for ministry and edification. We would sing spiritual songs as we were Jed and as Peter and Paul showed the order of God, we would minister the gifts to one another as God gave them.
I ask you, do you follow the commands here in these verses?.
1 Corinthians 14: 26. How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying…29. Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31… For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 37. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.”
Does your gathering allow such body ministry every time they gather? These are the commandments of the Lord.
And Peter said, (as led by Gid)
1 Peter 4: 10. As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”
Do you see that everyone can minister as they received the gift. To not allow freedom or body ministry is to quench the spirit and not be good stewards of God.
To have , (as many do) a one man above all either called the pastor or priest who wears long robes or a suit and who does a ritual or a sermon and has a thing called a program handed out that does not allow Christ to minister freely through the body is wrong and not the order of God for the church from the beginning.
No, I never said this. I showed how you assumed wrongly about me in the statement you made read it again.
And interestingly you mention pastors of the first century. We read that there were not just pastors but apostles, prophets, evangelist, and teachers. As there still is today.
There is nowhere in the New Testament that we see a one man called “the pastor” over all ruling over all exalted on a platform or altar over all. This was not in the first century church. They met primarily in homes and all could edify eachother and there was a plurality of male elders in every church as scripture shows.
This street preacher (a Pentecostal) was used to help you I would be closer to this man and the Pentecostals do believe in the gifts of the Spirit for today and somewhat of body ministry. Although they still elevate the one Mann pastor ministry over all, wrongly and against scripture. And they have other concerning doctrines.
Which cult was that?
That would have caused sone problems for sure. And again the same one man pastor ministry over all and no body ministry in every gathering.
Many of the man made religious forms today have one man above all on a platform or altar and all the seats facing him where everyone looks at the back of each others heads. This very form fights against body ministry and mutual edification in the spirit to one another.
That online discussion was what (I believe) wrongly swayed you into another religious form. So far you have not showed me any correction from the scriptures I used to correct your thinking. I say this in love to your soul. I at first came out of the so called “Roman Catholic Church” after being in there for almost 18 years.
Maybe after two years of talking together on these things you would begin to see the scriptures I share with you and come out of all man made religious forms and gather with the saints in homes around Christ and wait on Him for all things. As the early Christian’s did. They did not meet in a large man made building unbiblically called “a church”. They are the church.
We don’t “convert” to a religious form. The conversion is into Christ and His body by the Spirit. All such carnal talk of “I am if the Orthodix faith or the Roman Catholic, or Baptist etc” is carnal as Paul showed,
1 Corinthians 1: 12. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?”
This was carnal sect makers.
You do. not worship as the first Christian’s did. Not even close, as I could prove to you by scripture. But it seems that you are fearful to change after so long and perhaps don’t want to see the things that I share because it would trouble you in the form your in now .
You just follow another form or branch now. I could “prove” by scripture that your form now is wrong but you have to be willing to examine things. And it seems sone are not willing. Like the Catholic who I would ask why their Pope does this or that against scripture they would just say they are not interested to talk.
I am always growing in the faith and I was not nor am now like you in your past. I am grounded in what I believe and have had it tested for many years but the truth still stands firm.
I speak to you of the order of God for the churches and this order is not the order you follow as I can prove by scripture.
The only way to avoid the clear scriptures so give is to just run away and make sone excuse about “well, your set in your ways and won’t change” talk. No, you have not proven one thing to me from scripture yet.
You had a two year yak with another man who seated you so I can talk for as many years as you want. You are definitely not in the order as scripture shows or Gods commands that are for all the churches . Definitely.
And yet you do not listen to the commands of the apostles in your religious form. I can prove this 100 percent.
To just make grand statements as you do then run away and not show or discuss any scripture is not right. I eagerly wait for and love correction. But so far , nothing sound has come or scripture to correct me.
I have the mind of Christ I don’t need my mind changed.
God has directed my mind for years and still does and by HIS Spirit, and through the body of believers and by scripture.
If you really meant that you would be quick to give an answer for the reason of the hope that is in you and to earnestly contend for the faith
I wait for any scriptural correction and as I said I have started and can show much more to PROVE that your order is not after the early church or the apostles order given.
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LoveofTruth
Christ builds His church from within us
So are you correcting Jesus words when he said call no man father ??
Paul was no “called” father”, he was like a fatherly figure. That is different.
And we read,
Luke 3: 8. Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.”
The word father can mean the originator or chief of something of something not used as a title.
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- Apr 18, 2020
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It seems prudent to point out some Biblical Facts here. According to one of the 4 eyewitnesses, one of the malefactors knew who Jesus was. None of the other witnesses speaks to this. This sinner knew He was falsely accused, knew he deserved his sentence and Jesus didn't, according to Luke's perception. This man didn't ascertain all these things after being nailed to the cross, but before. We know nothing of this man prior to this part of one day, only that he knew the Christ, and understood who HE was.
So we know he repented, and brought forth works worthy of repentance, as Paul teaches both Jew and Gentile. We know HE was a different man, having put off the old man and putting on the new man, or as Jesus calls it, "born again".
I am not advocating for the popular religious tradition of having water sprinkled on my head by a man in long flowing robes who sit in the chief seats of the manmade shrines of worship. Or being dunked in a tank or river of water by the same image. I'm simply pointing out the Biblical fact that this man came to the knowledge of Christ before HE was crucified.
Now "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, promote the philosophy that because of this one eyewitness account, men can live after the course of this world all their life, as long as they call Jesus Lord, Lord on their death bed.
Although this might be a seductive implication, to spend your productive years lusting after the flesh and this world's pleasures until you are old and used up, and then offer your old used up life to Christ on the death bed, to receive the reward of eternal life.
I don't think it works that way, according to what the scriptures actually say.
This is absolutely true. As it is written, "There is no new thing under the sun". The Faith in God that was in Abraham was the same Faith in God that was in the Jesus of the Bible.
But the thief did repent, turn to God and did works worthy of repentance. We just are not shown the months or weeks of his life before he died.
I think if you were to ask the question, "how were sins forgiven before Christ, the Holy One of Israel, became a man in the person of Jesus"? Then answer the question which can be found in Lev. 4 as well as other places on the Law and Prophets, you would understand what "Works of the Law" the Jews were still promoting, given they didn't believe Jesus was the Prophesied Lamb of God.
You will also find that these sacrificial "works of the law" of forgiveness, were not "ADDED" until 430 years after Abraham, therefore Abraham was Justified (Forgiven) "Apart" from these sacrificial "works". "For if Abraham were justified "by works", he hath whereof to glory; but not before God."
The fact that you understand that it has always been justification by Grace through Faith is a great step forward. Now if you could just consider what "works" God Added to His Instruction in Righteousness to provide for forgiveness of sin, "Till the Seed should come", you will know what "Works" Paul is speaking to here.
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Valletta
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The Word of God refers to Paul and Abraham as "father" because they are spiritual fathers, just like priests. You're missing the meaning of the words, it's not to do away with titles such as father or doctor.
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LoveofTruth
Christ builds His church from within us
No I’m not missing the meaning. It has to do with a nane or title and putting someone in absolute authority over you like a master as well. One is our master and one Father and the anointing teaches all things. So, while there are teacher gifts to the body, it is not the man in his old man that teaches it is the anointing in him.
The context is this
Matthew 23: 9.-12 “ And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.”
Then he begins to rebuke the Pharisees sharply.
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Valletta
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Jesus is not telling us that calling your dad "father" is wrong. We are to obey and honor our mother and father. Jesus is rebuking those teachers who do not teach the Word of God, we are only to follow the teachings of God and not of a man with his own worldly ideas that are contrary to God. Paul and Abraham are referred to as "father," because they are spiritual leaders who teach God's Word.
1 Cor 4: 15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. RSVCE
Remember the entire Bible is God-breathed, it is easy to take a phrase out of context and apply our own meaning to it. The words must be considered in light of all of God's Word.
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LoveofTruth
Christ builds His church from within us
I disagree with you here. No so called "priest" should take the title or name "father" , or even master over others as Jesus reveals.
Paul was a father like figure, who begat them in the faith, This was not a title or name or a supreme authority over them. The pharisees had this error.Paul also says he nursed them like a nurse
“But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children:”" (1Thess. 2:7 KJV)
Paul was not saying to call him a nurse.
Others see things this way also. *though I really only need the scriptures in this, some comments by others believers might be helpful here
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
And call no man your Father ... - This does not, of course, forbid us to apply the term to our real father. Religion requires all proper honor to be shown to Him, Exodus 20:12; Matthew 15:4; Ephesians 6:1-3. But the word "father" also denotes "authority, eminence, superiority, a right to command, and a claim to particular respect." In this sense it is used here. In this sense it belongs eminently to God, and it is not right to give it to people. Christian brethren are equal. Only God has supreme authority. He only has a right to give laws; to declare doctrines that shall bind the conscience; to punish disobedience. The Jewish teachers affected that title because they seem to have supposed that a teacher formed the man, or gave him real life, and sought, therefore, to be called father. Christ taught them that the source of all life and truth was God, and they ought not to seek or receive a title which properly belongs to him."
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
9. A...let us see to it that we retain the full spirit of this warning against that itch for ecclesiastical superiority which has been the bane and the scandal of Christ's ministers in every age. "
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
And call no man your father upon the earth,.... Not but that children may, and should call their natural parents, fathers; ...Christ's sense is, that he would have his disciples not fond of any titles of honour at all; and much less assume an authority over men, as if they were to depend on them, as the founders of the Christian religion, the authors of its doctrines and ordinances; and to take that honour to themselves, which did not belong to them; nor even choose to be called by such names, as would lead people to entertain too high an opinion of them, and take off of their dependence on God the Father, and himself, as these titles the Scribes and Pharisees loved to be called by, did: and who were called not only by the name of Rabbi, but Abba, "Father", also: hence we read of Abba Saul, or "Father" Saul (n); Abba Jose ben Jochanan, a man of Jerusalem (o), Abba Chanan (p), Abba Chelphetha, a man of the village of Hananiah (q); Abba Gorion (r), and others; and this name was , "a name of honour, even as Rabbi" (s), and of great authority: the wise men are said to be , "the fathers of all" (t), to whom all gave heed, and upon whom all depended, as so many oracles. There is a whole treatise in their Misna, called Pirke Abot, which contains some of the oracles, and peculiar sayings of these "fathers", the Misnic doctors, and which are preferred to the writings of Moses, and the prophets. In this sense, and upon this score, our Lord inveighs against them, and cautions his disciples against giving or taking all such titles, in such sense. "For one is your Father, which is in heaven"; who is so, both by creation and adoption, and is possessed of all paternal authority; and is to be honoured and obeyed by all; from whom all wisdom and knowledge is derived, and who has the care and government of all in heaven and in earth.
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Valletta
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Your quotation from Barnes said "This does not, of course, forbid us to apply the term to our real father." Either "call no man" means every single man or it does not. Barnes admits it does not. What do you think about the following passage? That is, who are the "fathers?"
1 John 2:13-14 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, children, because you know the Father. I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
RSVCE
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This doesn’t prove that either of the thieves weren’t baptized. If the apostles were baptizing people in John 4:1-4 then I would imagine that they were baptized as well which would mean that Judas was also baptized. So if a man who was baptized could betray Jesus causing His death why couldn’t two baptized thieves mock Him on the cross? Now I’m not saying they were baptized and I’m not saying they weren’t, what I am saying is that we can’t actually say either way with any certainty.
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concretecamper
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The good thief was saved under the Old Law. The New Law requires Water Baptism.
John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
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LoveofTruth
Christ builds His church from within us
No, it does not have to meat what you said here. That is yout human reasoning. It is clarified and relates to certain things.
No, read the rest of his words.
I as Barnes do not extend this teaching to the human fathers. But even human fathers are not in the role Jesus warns of. So they also should be spoken of in a certain place and no more. and human mothers etc.
“If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”" ( Luke 14:26 KJV)
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